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The Infamous Unami
Tracking would have been hard anyway, as someone appears to have tipped off the runners that something was up- because they waited until the skies were clear to make their move.
I don't think that's an accurate description. Not implausible that they were tipped off - the cartels probably have half the Mexican police on their payroll - but these four hour loops appear to be their SOP for defeating aerial surveillance. (And possibly ground tails.) We're talking about professional smugglers, here, this is what they do. Little tricks like that keep you in business.

Wouldn't be too surprised to hear that the Zetas originated the practice, really. Given the Mexican special forces background.

Quote:
The ******** up with Fast and Furious was... from all the documents thus far released, there was never any plan to actually recover the weapons. THAT raises my eyebrows, and makes me ask why.
Yeah, interdictment. The lack of interdictment was what made it gunwalking. The whole "catch the big fish" idea.

From Wide Receiver on, that seems to be lacking in the scheme. After they established that they can't track the guns and they can't get probable cause on the straw purchasers without interdictment, they should have scrubbed the whole thing. It's a wonder it took them so long to realize that.

Quote:
There were no chips. There were no choppers.
Okay?

Chips might have been more useful in a different configuration, but since those things were defeated by a four hour drive and a dead drop of a day or two, their absence doesn't concern me as much as the repetition of the attempt to snare "big fish" with methods that weren't even snaring "small fish" with probable cause and firearms in tow.

Quote:
There were discussions in official email about using the fallout to impose tighter gun regulations.
Haven't seen it, whereat?
The Infamous Unami's avatar

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Wendigo


Quote:
There were discussions in official email about using the fallout to impose tighter gun regulations.
Haven't seen it, whereat?

Per CBS.
Wendigo's avatar

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Chait and Newell don't come out looking at all well, then. (I gather that those two, Bill McMahon, and Billy Hoover were reassigned and then suspended over all of this.)

Though th' attribution to the intent of the program seems unlikely; all four plans fall under the larger "Project Gunrunner." It's got a statement of intent that's long on verbiage.
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Wendigo
Chait and Newell don't come out looking at all well, then. (I gather that those two, Bill McMahon, and Billy Hoover were reassigned and then suspended over all of this.)

Though th' attribution to the intent of the program seems unlikely; all four plans fall under the larger "Project Gunrunner." It's got a statement of intent that's long on verbiage.

I agree that it would have seemed unlikely, when the story first broke. The question is begged though: Why the desperate, desperate effort to withhold the full details of the operation from congress?

If it was just a botched operation, well... we already know that. Fire the people responsible for it's planning and execution and move on. It's not like the stonewalling killed the story over the past year and a half, so it's not going to just fade away because of executive privilege. I mean, if they aren't hiding some bad s**t, why are they hiding so very, very hard?
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As far as exerting executive privilege, can't say without knowing what's in the documents they aren't releasing. I assume it has to do with those documents being embarrassing. Embarrassing for whom and in what way is the question.
The Infamous Unami
Wendigo
Chait and Newell don't come out looking at all well, then. (I gather that those two, Bill McMahon, and Billy Hoover were reassigned and then suspended over all of this.)

Though th' attribution to the intent of the program seems unlikely; all four plans fall under the larger "Project Gunrunner." It's got a statement of intent that's long on verbiage.

I agree that it would have seemed unlikely, when the story first broke. The question is begged though: Why the desperate, desperate effort to withhold the full details of the operation from congress?

If it was just a botched operation, well... we already know that. Fire the people responsible for it's planning and execution and move on. It's not like the stonewalling killed the story over the past year and a half, so it's not going to just fade away because of executive privilege. I mean, if they aren't hiding some bad s**t, why are they hiding so very, very hard?


I get a kick out of the fishing for the big fish comments. No hooks or anything. Must have expected them to either jump in the ******** boat or give themselves up out of guilt.
This administration has already shown they are more than happy to lie and twist information to display their anti-gun alliance.
And now they seem to be further proving Chicago style politics is alive and well in DC.
AnarchoPhiliac's avatar

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So I finally read up on this whole scandal and oh my. My mind is filled with all sorts of "Who the ******** thought it was a good idea to give automatic rifles to Drug Cartels?"
The Infamous Unami's avatar

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AnarchoPhiliac
So I finally read up on this whole scandal and oh my. My mind is filled with all sorts of "Who the ******** thought it was a good idea to give automatic rifles to Drug Cartels?"

Eric Holder.
AnarchoPhiliac
So I finally read up on this whole scandal and oh my. My mind is filled with all sorts of "Who the ******** thought it was a good idea to give automatic rifles to Drug Cartels?"

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-110hr6028ih/pdf/BILLS-110hr6028ih.pdf

Quote:
(5) on January 16, 2008, ATF announced that
12 it will add 25 special agents and 15 inspectors to
13 their Project Gunrunner along the Southwest Bor
14 der. And, the ATF budget request for fiscal year
15 2009 includes funding for another 12 inspectors;
16 and
17 (6) an effective strategy to combat these illegal
18 arms flows is a critical part of a United States con
19 tribution to a jointly executed anti-narcotics strategy
20 with Mexico.

(b) PROJECT GUNRUNNER INITIATIVE.—
22 (1) IN GENERAL.—The Attorney General shall
23 dedicate and expand the resources provided for the
24 Project Gunrunner initiative (hereafter in this sub
25 section referred to as the ‘‘initiative’’) of the Bureau
of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives to
2 identify, investigate, and prosecute individuals in
3 volved in the trafficking of firearms across the
4 United States-Mexico border.
5 (2) ACTIVITIES.—In carrying out this sub
6 section, the Attorney General shall—
7 (A) assign additional agents of the Bureau
8 of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
9 to the area of the United States adjacent to the
10 United States-Mexico border to support the ex
11 pansion of the initiative;
12 (B) establish not fewer than 1 initiative
13 team in each State along the United States-
14 Mexico border; and
15 (C) coordinate with the heads of other rel
16 evant Federal law enforcement agencies and
17 State and local law enforcement agencies to ad
18 dress firearms trafficking in a comprehensive
19 manner.


Funny thing. Issa voted "Yes" to this. I guess he thought it was a good idea.
Wendigo's avatar

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I get a kick out of the fishing for the big fish comments. No hooks or anything. Must have expected them to either jump in the ******** boat or give themselves up out of guilt.
Seems to be how it usually works with big fish. Certainly it's got the CIA shielding a lot of drug dealers with immunity as "assets."
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AnarchoPhiliac
So I finally read up on this whole scandal and oh my. My mind is filled with all sorts of "Who the ******** thought it was a good idea to give automatic rifles to Drug Cartels?"

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-110hr6028ih/pdf/BILLS-110hr6028ih.pdf

Quote:
(5) on January 16, 2008, ATF announced that
12 it will add 25 special agents and 15 inspectors to
13 their Project Gunrunner along the Southwest Bor
14 der. And, the ATF budget request for fiscal year
15 2009 includes funding for another 12 inspectors;
16 and
17 (6) an effective strategy to combat these illegal
18 arms flows is a critical part of a United States con
19 tribution to a jointly executed anti-narcotics strategy
20 with Mexico.

(b) PROJECT GUNRUNNER INITIATIVE.—
22 (1) IN GENERAL.—The Attorney General shall
23 dedicate and expand the resources provided for the
24 Project Gunrunner initiative (hereafter in this sub
25 section referred to as the ‘‘initiative’’) of the Bureau
of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives to
2 identify, investigate, and prosecute individuals in
3 volved in the trafficking of firearms across the
4 United States-Mexico border.
5 (2) ACTIVITIES.—In carrying out this sub
6 section, the Attorney General shall—
7 (A) assign additional agents of the Bureau
8 of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
9 to the area of the United States adjacent to the
10 United States-Mexico border to support the ex
11 pansion of the initiative;
12 (B) establish not fewer than 1 initiative
13 team in each State along the United States-
14 Mexico border; and
15 (C) coordinate with the heads of other rel
16 evant Federal law enforcement agencies and
17 State and local law enforcement agencies to ad
18 dress firearms trafficking in a comprehensive
19 manner.


Funny thing. Issa voted "Yes" to this. I guess he thought it was a good idea.


There is nothing in this bill to suggest anything about a strategy of allowing guns to walk. It is disingenuous to suggest, based solely on the text of the bill, that anyone who voted for it would automatically think that letting letting guns walk was a good idea. In fact, what has happened in both Wide Reciever and Fast and Furious is the opposite of the stated methods and goals of Project Gunnrunner: the ATF failed to coordinate with the government and law enforcement agencies of Mexico and it allowed guns to get in the hands of the cartels. Unless congressional representatives were briefed specifically about the methods the ATF were engaging in under Wide Reciever and Fast and Furious (which are not mentioned in this bill and you don't provide a source supporting this notion) than one cannot assume that anyone voting for this bill supported the idea of gun walking.
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The Infamous Unami
AnarchoPhiliac
So I finally read up on this whole scandal and oh my. My mind is filled with all sorts of "Who the ******** thought it was a good idea to give automatic rifles to Drug Cartels?"

Eric Holder.


I don't think he is to blame for the original idea but, as the head of the Justice Department, he is responsible for the actions that occurred under his watch. It seems clear that the ATF under his tenure decided to double down on a bad idea and somehow managed to execute it even poorly than Wide Reciever. The flaws of Wide Reciever, which had at least a planned method to track the guns and a supposed plan to catch them once they went in to Mexico was flawed enough. To double down on a bad idea and proceed with Fast and Furious exhibits either incredibly poor judgement and/or poor management over the agencies he heads, or a cynical willingness to sacrifice the safety or lives of citizens of the United States and Mexico for the administrations political goals. Add in to that his dishonesty in the Congress's inquiry in the matter and he is not fit for the position of Attorney General and should be held accountable.

Furthermore, if Obama is honest about openness and transparency as he stated at the beginning of his administration, he should be forthcoming about what has happened instead of hiding it.
Old Blue Collar Joe
Less Than Liz
Wendigo
So basically, the net result of all this was the same - guns winding up out of the ATF's control, in the hands of the Sinaloa Cartel or the Zetas, as a result of an operation intended to snare "big fish" instead of little ones. That is to say, "blowback."

Dunno about that. I think there is a meaningful difference between trying to track guns and losing them to Bad Guys than not even bothering to do that. F&F is looking more and more like it was designed to generate blowback through perceived negligence that would have been similar-looking to Wide Receiver -- seemingly for political reasons, at the least. Holder et al. just weren't expecting any whistleblowback on them.


This ******** has the GOA, NRA and a shitload of other groups royally pissed. They're on a steady stream of emails and such and aren't letting up on this issue, and I'd be surprised if they don't continue to beat this horse until the election is done, especially since this group originally painted it as straw buyers doing this and gun stores not verifying s**t.
They wanted to make the lawful gun owners look like idiots.


A pity this horse can only be beaten in a very specific way.
azulmagia
Old Blue Collar Joe
Less Than Liz
Wendigo
So basically, the net result of all this was the same - guns winding up out of the ATF's control, in the hands of the Sinaloa Cartel or the Zetas, as a result of an operation intended to snare "big fish" instead of little ones. That is to say, "blowback."

Dunno about that. I think there is a meaningful difference between trying to track guns and losing them to Bad Guys than not even bothering to do that. F&F is looking more and more like it was designed to generate blowback through perceived negligence that would have been similar-looking to Wide Receiver -- seemingly for political reasons, at the least. Holder et al. just weren't expecting any whistleblowback on them.


This ******** has the GOA, NRA and a shitload of other groups royally pissed. They're on a steady stream of emails and such and aren't letting up on this issue, and I'd be surprised if they don't continue to beat this horse until the election is done, especially since this group originally painted it as straw buyers doing this and gun stores not verifying s**t.
They wanted to make the lawful gun owners look like idiots.


A pity this horse can only be beaten in a very specific way.


True enough. We have a dead American, and they are turning him into a political football.
Wendigo's avatar

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AnarchoPhiliac
So I finally read up on this whole scandal and oh my. My mind is filled with all sorts of "Who the ******** thought it was a good idea to give automatic rifles to Drug Cartels?"
You know, hopefully nobody, but that's crossed my mind as being a somewhat more plausible ulterior motive than is generally being floated.

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