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dio777
Kia Eriks
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dio777
Still overwhelmingly pro union though. Its just divided between with devolved assembly or without.

In fact by my reckoning that's now a 69% in favour of a continued union with Great Britain.

My guess is long after all of us here are dead and buried Ulster will still be an active part of this grand union of ours.

/Eh. We'll have to see. It sucks, though, because that's basically the last major mass of land that is still in complete British control. I mean, India, Australia, and most other British-controlled territories have become independent states by now. The only other states I can think of are the other Gaelic states, but those are all located on the UK mainlands. (Scotland, Wales, etc.)
You make it sound like a bad thing

These arnt imperial holdings anyway, theyre part of a union, particularly in the case of Scotland. I don't see how Northern Ireland being part of the UK is any worse than Texas being a part of the US. Both we're ensured through violent means at some point or another.

I think most of our detractors outside of Ireland are just English hating bigots. Especially the Irish-Americans and Irish-Australians and Irish-Canadians who act all 'more Irish than thou' and yet never have and never will spill a single drop of blood for their much professed cause.

/Eh. That's another point of it. But still, I'm all for a fully unified island. I mean, it's a very weak analogy, but I view NI being something similar to if the UK still owned Maine or something. It's just my personal opinion and, as I said, it interests me to see a unified Republic.

Also, coming from a yank who doesn't even know where the Irish came in his blood, I'm not against the British at all. They're very nice people when they're not invading your lands and claiming everything you own as their own. But they tend to have an air that presents themselves as trying to be the best of the best. I suppose having an empire where, at one point, you could see the sun rise and set at the same time would make one a bit cocky.

But, that aside, I'm not against working for a cause that supports a unified Republic. One complication lies solely in the fact that I'm an 18-year-old American who doesn't have the money nor time to commit to such a 'professed cause', as you say.
The only problem with the Maine comparison is that for it to be fair you would have to assume as per my poll most people there wanted either complete union with Britain or some continued union with a devolved assembly.

That 'air' you mentioned probably comes with believing you have the moral authority to conquer other countries and order their societies for the better. If self government is truly preferably to good government then I guess places like India and Pakistan got exactly what they wanted. Bad self government.

Also, with respect, I think a lot of American activities in Africa and Latin America throughout the 20th century would have made even some of our worst imperialists blush.

/Aye, that's why I can draw an extremely weak comparison. But a comparison nonetheless.

Now, not to draw away from the argument, I see you brought up Pakistan and India. True, their self-governing hasn't exactly had the best of results, but I'd like to bring another country formerly ruled by the British that has had a bad day with self governing: Iraq. To say Iraq was anything it is now some thousand years ago would be very foolish. A majority of the internal turmoil was the racist comparison that was cluttered through the Middle East. Granted, things could be straightened out easily with a nice chat, but that's pushing it a bit. Basically, when Britain pushed through the world and started Diasporas left and right, it started to throw the balance of the world in the bin. Back to the original point of this paragraph, I'm just saying that while self-governing is a freedom most of the formally-colonized areas enjoy, to say that none of the current conflicts were not the result of Britain's involvement with 'mixing' people would be very idiotic.

The point I make there is that NI would most likely not become an independent state, so the worries of places such as Iraq and Pakistan and India are quite moot.

Oh, and I never said America was a sweet little school girl, either. I just found no reason to bring up the fact that we formerly idealized the fact that acting mute and carrying large, blunt objects was the solution to every problem south of the Tropic of Cancer.
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dio777
I think most of our detractors outside of Ireland are just English hating bigots. Especially the Irish-Americans and Irish-Australians and Irish-Canadians who act all 'more Irish than thou' and yet never have and never will spill a single drop of blood for their much professed cause.

This is just a silly collective ad hominem. I can safely say without fear of contradiction that most people I know IRL support the integration of NI into the republic. I can also safely say that they are neither consciously Irish (myself being 3 quarters English, 1 quarter Irish--incidentally, the irish part of my family tree is Anglican), nor supporters of the IRA/political violence in general.

My own support for a completely independent Ireland comes from the understanding that until Ireland is completely severed from British rule, the UK working class will be divided, with British pitted against the evil seperatists, and the local Irish media pitting the Irish against the evil colonial overlords.

Because of the interpenetration of peoples in NI, I know that with a unified republic the protestants would become an oppressed minority just as the Catholics are currently in the north. Because of this, the only way a truely democratic solution can be achieved is through socialist revolution, which is only possible through the united action of the Catholic and Protestant working classes.

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If self government is truly preferably to good government then I guess places like India and Pakistan got exactly what they wanted. Bad self government.

Considering India and Pakistan are still economically subordinated to England and increasingly the US, it is absurd to say that either of those countries truly has self government. Also, both countries that you mentioned are fictions. India and Pakistan are hodgepodges of multitudes of nationalities, forced under a foreign state power, with grades of special oppression occurring within them because of that, just like Indonesia, and most of Africa.

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Also, with respect, I think a lot of American activities in Africa and Latin America throughout the 20th century would have made even some of our worst imperialists blush.

Yes, and the Nazis were even worse, what's your point? That there are other, more oppressive powers out there doesn't change the injustice of those places with more normalised and accepted oppression.
Wait when did the IRA go away? I know they were loosing public sympathy but they were still active in Ireland.
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Wait when did the IRA go away? I know they were loosing public sympathy but they were still active in Ireland.

/Well, the actual IRA (because the Real IRA can't be used as a term anymore), which is widely spread and known as the Provisional IRA, has actually decommissioned. However, after the Belfast Agreement, the ProvIRA was split, just as the original IRA had, into the remaining Provisional IRA (who are most known for their actions after the Irish Civil War), the Continuity IRA, and the Real IRA (who are the more modern Provisional IRA hooligans).

As such, while the ProvIRA has decommissioned, the CIRA and the RIRA continue to attempt to use terror tactics for the gain of the Republic of Ireland via means of driving the British monarchy from the Irish mainlands, specifically in the sectors of Northern Ireland and along the UK-Ireland border.
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/As a liberal by all definition of the word, it seems weird to say that I support the Republicans in Ireland.

Of course, that's just the American stylization wearing on me. Stupid propaganda, with its asses and pachyderms...
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Kia Eriks
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dio777
Kia Eriks
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dio777
Kia Eriks
dio777
Still overwhelmingly pro union though. Its just divided between with devolved assembly or without.

In fact by my reckoning that's now a 69% in favour of a continued union with Great Britain.

My guess is long after all of us here are dead and buried Ulster will still be an active part of this grand union of ours.

/Eh. We'll have to see. It sucks, though, because that's basically the last major mass of land that is still in complete British control. I mean, India, Australia, and most other British-controlled territories have become independent states by now. The only other states I can think of are the other Gaelic states, but those are all located on the UK mainlands. (Scotland, Wales, etc.)
You make it sound like a bad thing

These arnt imperial holdings anyway, theyre part of a union, particularly in the case of Scotland. I don't see how Northern Ireland being part of the UK is any worse than Texas being a part of the US. Both we're ensured through violent means at some point or another.

I think most of our detractors outside of Ireland are just English hating bigots. Especially the Irish-Americans and Irish-Australians and Irish-Canadians who act all 'more Irish than thou' and yet never have and never will spill a single drop of blood for their much professed cause.

/Eh. That's another point of it. But still, I'm all for a fully unified island. I mean, it's a very weak analogy, but I view NI being something similar to if the UK still owned Maine or something. It's just my personal opinion and, as I said, it interests me to see a unified Republic.

Also, coming from a yank who doesn't even know where the Irish came in his blood, I'm not against the British at all. They're very nice people when they're not invading your lands and claiming everything you own as their own. But they tend to have an air that presents themselves as trying to be the best of the best. I suppose having an empire where, at one point, you could see the sun rise and set at the same time would make one a bit cocky.

But, that aside, I'm not against working for a cause that supports a unified Republic. One complication lies solely in the fact that I'm an 18-year-old American who doesn't have the money nor time to commit to such a 'professed cause', as you say.
The only problem with the Maine comparison is that for it to be fair you would have to assume as per my poll most people there wanted either complete union with Britain or some continued union with a devolved assembly.

That 'air' you mentioned probably comes with believing you have the moral authority to conquer other countries and order their societies for the better. If self government is truly preferably to good government then I guess places like India and Pakistan got exactly what they wanted. Bad self government.

Also, with respect, I think a lot of American activities in Africa and Latin America throughout the 20th century would have made even some of our worst imperialists blush.

/Aye, that's why I can draw an extremely weak comparison. But a comparison nonetheless.
An unhelpful comparison that suggests nothing

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Now, not to draw away from the argument, I see you brought up Pakistan and India. True, their self-governing hasn't exactly had the best of results, but I'd like to bring another country formerly ruled by the British that has had a bad day with self governing: Iraq.
A country long ruled by the once mighty Ottoman Empire before we invaded due to the Ottomans joining the world war against Britain. We had a brief mandate over Iraq, awarded to to us by the proper legal authority (the league of nations) and set up a government. Okay, we messed up setting the boundaries and choosing the leaders, but I so no reason to beleive it would have ended any better had we just left them to it.

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To say Iraq was anything it is now some thousand years ago would be very foolish.
Good job I never said such an asinine thing then

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A majority of the internal turmoil was the racist comparison that was cluttered through the Middle East. Granted, things could be straightened out easily with a nice chat, but that's pushing it a bit.
Presumably caused by sectarian and racial rivalries that had existed for centuries. The Turks kept them in check, we we're less successful.

Clarify a couple of points for me:

a) what racist comaprison, elaborate?
b) what could have been straightened out with a nice chat, be specific?

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Basically, when Britain pushed through the world and started Diasporas left and right, it started to throw the balance of the world in the bin.
What balance?

Quote:
Back to the original point of this paragraph, I'm just saying that while self-governing is a freedom most of the formally-colonized areas enjoy, to say that none of the current conflicts were not the result of Britain's involvement with 'mixing' people would be very idiotic.
Then you are wasting your breath as nobody said that.

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The point I make there is that NI would most likely not become an independent state, so the worries of places such as Iraq and Pakistan and India are quite moot.
Then why are we discussing it?

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Oh, and I never said America was a sweet little school girl, either. I just found no reason to bring up the fact that we formerly idealized the fact that acting mute and carrying large, blunt objects was the solution to every problem south of the Tropic of Cancer.
Well its pertinent to Iraq, as Saddam was connected with the CIA and it was of course the United States that lead the charge into all the senseless carnage that's happening there today.
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dio777
I think most of our detractors outside of Ireland are just English hating bigots. Especially the Irish-Americans and Irish-Australians and Irish-Canadians who act all 'more Irish than thou' and yet never have and never will spill a single drop of blood for their much professed cause.

This is just a silly collective ad hominem. I can safely say without fear of contradiction that most people I know IRL support the integration of NI into the republic. I can also safely say that they are neither consciously Irish (myself being 3 quarters English, 1 quarter Irish--incidentally, the irish part of my family tree is Anglican), nor supporters of the IRA/political violence in general.

My own support for a completely independent Ireland comes from the understanding that until Ireland is completely severed from British rule, the UK working class will be divided, with British pitted against the evil seperatists, and the local Irish media pitting the Irish against the evil colonial overlords.

Because of the interpenetration of peoples in NI, I know that with a unified republic the protestants would become an oppressed minority just as the Catholics are currently in the north. Because of this, the only way a truely democratic solution can be achieved is through socialist revolution, which is only possible through the united action of the Catholic and Protestant working classes.

Quote:
If self government is truly preferably to good government then I guess places like India and Pakistan got exactly what they wanted. Bad self government.

Considering India and Pakistan are still economically subordinated to England and increasingly the US, it is absurd to say that either of those countries truly has self government. Also, both countries that you mentioned are fictions. India and Pakistan are hodgepodges of multitudes of nationalities, forced under a foreign state power, with grades of special oppression occurring within them because of that, just like Indonesia, and most of Africa.

Quote:
Also, with respect, I think a lot of American activities in Africa and Latin America throughout the 20th century would have made even some of our worst imperialists blush.

Yes, and the Nazis were even worse, what's your point? That there are other, more oppressive powers out there doesn't change the injustice of those places with more normalised and accepted oppression.
I'm speaking from experience and experience tells me that you will find the most uncompromising pro-terrorism kind of views from the likes of Irish Americans rather than from the Irish themselves, in fact most Irish people I've spoken tend to be quite pragmatic about the devolved power arrangements in Northern Ireland. Experience can admittedly be lop sided, but that was all I presented t you, I did not dress it up as fact. You yourself have some 'red' agenda to grind, fair enough, but I don't think that most pro IRA folk in the US or Australia are coming at it from nearly such a sophisticated perspective.

If you could enlighten me as to what means Britain uses to govern India, post empire, I would be most intrigued. I don't see Imperialism as an inherently bad thing, its as good or bad as the Imperial power itself and the British Empire was not all bad, not by a long shot.
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Kia Eriks
/As a liberal by all definition of the word, it seems weird to say that I support the Republicans in Ireland.

Of course, that's just the American stylization wearing on me. Stupid propaganda, with its asses and pachyderms...
As a Liberal its not that odd for you to support the Republicans. It is curious that you support terrorism.
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Kia Eriks
/As a liberal by all definition of the word, it seems weird to say that I support the Republicans in Ireland.

Of course, that's just the American stylization wearing on me. Stupid propaganda, with its asses and pachyderms...
As a Liberal its not that odd for you to support the Republicans. It is curious that you support terrorism.

/I don't necessarily support terrorism. It's more of I support unity of an island that's been split into two because the British empire sees it fit. I couldn't tell you why anybody would want to stay within the holdings of the UK, but I'm sure they have their reasons. It just seems foolish that a geographic border would exist in such a location.

Sorry if it seems like I'm spouting nonsense left and right, but, as I said, I'm an 18 year old American. I'd love to actually visit Ireland here in the coming years, but I couldn't tell you one bit about why things are like they are. I follow the Sinn Fein every so often, so it's not like I don't pick up pieces of the conflict. But I'm just putting my two cents forward, even though they're probably not worth half a pence.
Imagine. "Christians" fighting and killing "Christians" over the way they worship God.
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Kia Eriks
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dio777
Kia Eriks
/As a liberal by all definition of the word, it seems weird to say that I support the Republicans in Ireland.

Of course, that's just the American stylization wearing on me. Stupid propaganda, with its asses and pachyderms...
As a Liberal its not that odd for you to support the Republicans. It is curious that you support terrorism.

/I don't necessarily support terrorism. It's more of I support unity of an island that's been split into two because the British empire sees it fit. I couldn't tell you why anybody would want to stay within the holdings of the UK, but I'm sure they have their reasons. It just seems foolish that a geographic border would exist in such a location.

Sorry if it seems like I'm spouting nonsense left and right, but, as I said, I'm an 18 year old American. I'd love to actually visit Ireland here in the coming years, but I couldn't tell you one bit about why things are like they are. I follow the Sinn Fein every so often, so it's not like I don't pick up pieces of the conflict. But I'm just putting my two cents forward, even though they're probably not worth half a pence.
I don't see why the geographic location should matter more than the right of the people who live their to have self determination. Incorporating a region made up largely of British Unionists into a united Ireland seems to be exactly the same thing you were dead set against when we discussed how Britain drew up the borders in Iraq.

Following Sinn Feinn is not going to give you the depth of understanding you need to form a worthwhile opinion on the conflict.
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Imagine. "Christians" fighting and killing "Christians" over the way they worship God.
I think this has been fairly ubiquitous throughout Christendom, though whatever the origins of the conflict, its safe to say this is now a nationalist struggle that uses some religious rhetoric out of tradition.
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I just hope they stick to military targets this time, leaving civies alone.


Do they honestly have a history of EVER leaving civvies alone?
Well, occasionally they shoot police officers attending run of the mill domestic disturbances. You know, heroic stuff like that.
dio777
Ammo Amy
Imagine. "Christians" fighting and killing "Christians" over the way they worship God.
I think this has been fairly ubiquitous throughout Christendom, though whatever the origins of the conflict, its safe to say this is now a nationalist struggle that uses some religious rhetoric out of tradition.

Protestantism has a history of having a superiority complex over Catholics. In North Ireland, the Protestants have more control and they clearly exercise that.
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Learning To Live
dio777
Ammo Amy
Imagine. "Christians" fighting and killing "Christians" over the way they worship God.
I think this has been fairly ubiquitous throughout Christendom, though whatever the origins of the conflict, its safe to say this is now a nationalist struggle that uses some religious rhetoric out of tradition.

Protestantism has a history of having a superiority complex over hatred towards Catholics.
Fix'd


dio777
In North Ireland, the Protestants have more control and they clearly exercise that.
Historically true, though, through the devolved power arrangements steps have been taken to make the police force more representative blah blah blah

I don't see how this directly addresses my point

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