George Zimmerman 'to be charged'

[Kasumi of Vientown]

Tactical Leg Sweep

Kasumi of Vientown

Tactical Leg Sweep

Kasumi of Vientown

Tactical Leg Sweep

Liar liar pants on fire. The job of the funeral director is to clean the body and make it presentable for viewing and burial. Therefore, him stating that there were no superficial signs of an injury is perfectly legitimate. Also, please enlighten me with your extensive medical knowledge what those invisible injuries showing a physical confrontation might be. I'm mighty interested.

Bruising sometimes wont show up on corpses right away until weeks or even months later. I'm not really sure why it works that way sometimes and other times it doesn't, but it's just a fact that as a body decomposes bruises that were invisible or that were too faint to be seen with the naked eye become more and more apparent. Maybe there's some method that an experienced medical examiner could use to identify these signs of injuries which a mere funeral director wouldn't know how to do, but in any case the funeral director isn't really a good witness. The actual certified medical examiner that performed the formal autopsy is best evidence.

Again, sauce? Even assuming contusions became prevalent months after Martin's body was examined, physical confrontation has more signs than contusions. Abrasions on the knuckles, for example, accompany said bruises, showing they occurred while the patient was alive. Swelling would be another indication. Will these magically show up at a later date as well?

I don't fully understand the physics behind it, and to be honest I don't even remember where I read it, I just know that there have been cases where a death was ruled accidental at first and as a result the coroner didn't look for 'invisible bruising' in the first autopsy. I definitely read about it somewhere, I'm not just making that up. The point being that the funeral director isn't qualified on the subject of forensics, so I advise that you not put too much trust in his word before we have the actual medical examiners findings. Also, he has no ethical duty to the truth, so he might also be lying about Trayvon's lack of injuries. The truth will come out when we hear from the medical examiner

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1731416/pdf/v054p00348.pdf
Reading this to see if it is in there. It does say already that bruises are easily overlooked in cases of darker-skinned individuals, but that much is common sense





DECOMPOSITION

Quote:

With the increasing postmortem interval, bruises become more diffuse and are frequently accentuated in intensity as a result of the degradation products of haemoglobin. Indeed, bruises can appear a day or two after the postmortem examination that were not visible at the first necropsy, or those that were seen initially can appear more pronounced. Fingertip bruises indicative of grip marks are a particularly good example of this phenomenon. With the onset of putrefaction, the body becomes discoloured and bruises become modified in their appearance, making their accurate assessment difficult. Immunological methods have demonstrated the usefulness of glycophorin A, a constituent of red blood cell membranes, as a marker to differentiate between true bruising and putrefactive discoloration. Although haemoglobin pigments readily filter through blood vessels, erythrocyte membranes do so less easily because of their molecular size. Therefore, bruises will contain a greater amount of erythrocyte membrane material than areas of discolouration resulting from putrefactive change. However, glycophorin A cannot help to differentiate between antemortem and postmortem injury because extravasated blood from vessels includes erythrocytes, regardless of whether the damage occurred before or after death.

Yes, and this funeral director received the body days after the postmortem examination. Also, again, aside from contusions, as I said before, the director states there were NO physical signs of a struggle on the body. No abrasions, no punctures from fingernails. Contusions are not the only signs of a physical struggle.

The article also says bruises are easily overlooked in cases of darker-skinned individuals.

also, Zimmerman never said anything about laying a hand on Trayvon while Trayvon was beating him, so the only place where their might be bruises anyway would be his knuckles. And due to Trayyvon's skin color minor bruises would be easily overlooked, especially if the funeral director had it into his head already that Zimmerman was guilty of something, so wait until the Madical Examiner reports his findings because he has the medical and ethical background to know what he's talking about. Taking the funeral directors word for it without the best evidence is unfair to George Zimmerman.

[Omorose Panya]

Kasumi of Vientown

I wasn't going to mention Trayvon's past. I only brought that up after someone else asked me what I knew on the subject. I prefer not to speak poorly of the dead, but Trayvon's character is also relevant since so many people try to regard him as some kind of saint and refuse to acknowledge evidence that supports Zimmerman.

That sort of fanaticism isn't very American. As long as George Zimmerman gets a fair trial, the most he might be convicted of is stalking, but even that is a stretch. Anyway, back to typing.

From what I can see, not necessarily from you but from the general public outrage, the problem is not that he is "saint," but that the public can't stand to see him not painted as a crminal. I'm not sure when "not criminal" started to equate to "staint," but apparently it does now.

What evidence is that? The only conclusive thing I've seen so far is that he smokies pot, which is irrelevant to this case.

[Fearherloveher]

Kasumi of Vientown

Tactical Leg Sweep

Kasumi of Vientown

Tactical Leg Sweep

Kasumi of Vientown

Bruising sometimes wont show up on corpses right away until weeks or even months later. I'm not really sure why it works that way sometimes and other times it doesn't, but it's just a fact that as a body decomposes bruises that were invisible or that were too faint to be seen with the naked eye become more and more apparent. Maybe there's some method that an experienced medical examiner could use to identify these signs of injuries which a mere funeral director wouldn't know how to do, but in any case the funeral director isn't really a good witness. The actual certified medical examiner that performed the formal autopsy is best evidence.

Again, sauce? Even assuming contusions became prevalent months after Martin's body was examined, physical confrontation has more signs than contusions. Abrasions on the knuckles, for example, accompany said bruises, showing they occurred while the patient was alive. Swelling would be another indication. Will these magically show up at a later date as well?

I don't fully understand the physics behind it, and to be honest I don't even remember where I read it, I just know that there have been cases where a death was ruled accidental at first and as a result the coroner didn't look for 'invisible bruising' in the first autopsy. I definitely read about it somewhere, I'm not just making that up. The point being that the funeral director isn't qualified on the subject of forensics, so I advise that you not put too much trust in his word before we have the actual medical examiners findings. Also, he has no ethical duty to the truth, so he might also be lying about Trayvon's lack of injuries. The truth will come out when we hear from the medical examiner

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1731416/pdf/v054p00348.pdf
Reading this to see if it is in there. It does say already that bruises are easily overlooked in cases of darker-skinned individuals, but that much is common sense





DECOMPOSITION

Quote:

With the increasing postmortem interval, bruises become more diffuse and are frequently accentuated in intensity as a result of the degradation products of haemoglobin. Indeed, bruises can appear a day or two after the postmortem examination that were not visible at the first necropsy, or those that were seen initially can appear more pronounced. Fingertip bruises indicative of grip marks are a particularly good example of this phenomenon. With the onset of putrefaction, the body becomes discoloured and bruises become modified in their appearance, making their accurate assessment difficult. Immunological methods have demonstrated the usefulness of glycophorin A, a constituent of red blood cell membranes, as a marker to differentiate between true bruising and putrefactive discoloration. Although haemoglobin pigments readily filter through blood vessels, erythrocyte membranes do so less easily because of their molecular size. Therefore, bruises will contain a greater amount of erythrocyte membrane material than areas of discolouration resulting from putrefactive change. However, glycophorin A cannot help to differentiate between antemortem and postmortem injury because extravasated blood from vessels includes erythrocytes, regardless of whether the damage occurred before or after death.

Yes, and this funeral director received the body days after the postmortem examination. Also, again, aside from contusions, as I said before, the director states there were NO physical signs of a struggle on the body. No abrasions, no punctures from fingernails. Contusions are not the only signs of a physical struggle.

The article also says bruises are easily overlooked in cases of darker-skinned individuals.

also, Zimmerman never said anything about laying a hand on Trayvon while Trayvon was beating him, so the only place where their might be bruises anyway would be his knuckles. And due to Trayyvon's skin color minor bruises would be easily overlooked, especially if the funeral director had it into his head already that Zimmerman was guilty of something, so wait until the Madical Examiner reports his findings because he has the medical and ethical background to know what he's talking about. Taking the funeral directors word for it without the best evidence is unfair to George Zimmerman.

Wow...I wasn't aware bruises couldn't be seen on darker skin.



Seriously, you've proven time and time again that you are full of s**t. Why do you even bother posting?

[Kasumi of Vientown]

Metheshrew

Wow...I wasn't aware bruises couldn't be seen on darker skin.



Seriously, you've proven time and time again that you are full of s**t. Why do you even bother posting?

Take this info and stop acting like an idiot

Quote:

Factors that influence the development and appearance of bruises There are many variables that influence the development and absorption of bruises, as well as their appearance and extent of spread, thus adding to the diYculty in their interpretation. Bruising occurs more easily where there is loose tissue—for example, over the eyebrow—rather than where the skin is more strongly supported. It also occurs more readily where there is an excess of subcutaneous fat. Because there is a greater skin deposition of fat in women, they tend to bruise more easily than do men.

The type of surface and force that impacts on the body will have a great eVect on the intensity, size, shape, and pattern of the resultant bruising. In infants and the elderly bruising tends to occur more easily. In the very young the skin is looser, more delicate, and there is an increased amount of subcutaneous fat. In old people, although there is loss of subcutaneous fat, blood vessels are also more poorly supported and bruises take longer to resolve.

Skin colouration modifies the appearance of a bruise to the naked eye. It is much easier to observe the extent and colour of bruising in lighter skinned individuals. Thus, it is particularly important to take extra care when examining dark skinned individuals so that any bruising is not overlooked.

[Fearherloveher]

Kasumi of Vientown

Metheshrew

Wow...I wasn't aware bruises couldn't be seen on darker skin.



Seriously, you've proven time and time again that you are full of s**t. Why do you even bother posting?

Take this info and stop acting like an idiot

Quote:

Factors that influence the development and appearance of bruises There are many variables that influence the development and absorption of bruises, as well as their appearance and extent of spread, thus adding to the diYculty in their interpretation. Bruising occurs more easily where there is loose tissue—for example, over the eyebrow—rather than where the skin is more strongly supported. It also occurs more readily where there is an excess of subcutaneous fat. Because there is a greater skin deposition of fat in women, they tend to bruise more easily than do men.

The type of surface and force that impacts on the body will have a great eVect on the intensity, size, shape, and pattern of the resultant bruising. In infants and the elderly bruising tends to occur more easily. In the very young the skin is looser, more delicate, and there is an increased amount of subcutaneous fat. In old people, although there is loss of subcutaneous fat, blood vessels are also more poorly supported and bruises take longer to resolve.

Skin colouration modifies the appearance of a bruise to the naked eye. It is much easier to observe the extent and colour of bruising in lighter skinned individuals. Thus, it is particularly important to take extra care when examining dark skinned individuals so that any bruising is not overlooked.

Honey, I'm darker than Zimmerman and not even only a few shades lighter than Trayvon was. I can assure you that bruising can easily be spoted no matter what skin tone a person is.

I suggest you change your skin color, get bruised, and examine the bruises before you make bullshit posts about how bruises can't be seen on dark skin. Either that, or you should ask a friend of yours that has dark skin assuming you have any.

[Omorose Panya]

Metheshrew

Wow...I wasn't aware bruises couldn't be seen on darker skin.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p482/PandaBurger266/What.gif[/img]

Seriously, you've proven time and time again that you are full of s**t. Why do you even bother posting?

It's not that they can't be seen, but that they are sometimes harder to see. Because of the nature of bruising, it is easier to see a bruise on this person:



than on this one:

[Fearherloveher]

Omorose Panya

Metheshrew

Wow...I wasn't aware bruises couldn't be seen on darker skin.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p482/PandaBurger266/What.gif[/img]

Seriously, you've proven time and time again that you are full of s**t. Why do you even bother posting?

It's not that they can't be seen, but that they are sometimes harder to see. Because of the nature of bruising, it is easier to see a bruise on this person:



than on this one:

Just because they are difficult to see doesn't mean that they can't or won't be seen. If that were true then we would have seen the supposed bruises on Zimmerman's much lighter skin.

On a side note, my dad is about as dark as the model and bruises pretty easily. How would I know this? Because I can see them. He also has several visible scars on his legs and arms from his childhood.

[Kasumi of Vientown]

Metheshrew

Kasumi of Vientown

Metheshrew

Wow...I wasn't aware bruises couldn't be seen on darker skin.



Seriously, you've proven time and time again that you are full of s**t. Why do you even bother posting?

Take this info and stop acting like an idiot

Quote:

Factors that influence the development and appearance of bruises There are many variables that influence the development and absorption of bruises, as well as their appearance and extent of spread, thus adding to the diYculty in their interpretation. Bruising occurs more easily where there is loose tissue—for example, over the eyebrow—rather than where the skin is more strongly supported. It also occurs more readily where there is an excess of subcutaneous fat. Because there is a greater skin deposition of fat in women, they tend to bruise more easily than do men.

The type of surface and force that impacts on the body will have a great eVect on the intensity, size, shape, and pattern of the resultant bruising. In infants and the elderly bruising tends to occur more easily. In the very young the skin is looser, more delicate, and there is an increased amount of subcutaneous fat. In old people, although there is loss of subcutaneous fat, blood vessels are also more poorly supported and bruises take longer to resolve.

Skin colouration modifies the appearance of a bruise to the naked eye. It is much easier to observe the extent and colour of bruising in lighter skinned individuals. Thus, it is particularly important to take extra care when examining dark skinned individuals so that any bruising is not overlooked.

Honey, I'm darker than Zimmerman and not even only a few shades lighter than Trayvon was. I can assure you that bruising can easily be spoted no matter what skin tone a person is.

I suggest you change your skin color, get bruised, and examine the bruises before you make bullshit posts about how bruises can't be seen on dark skin. Either that, or you should ask a friend of yours that has dark skin assuming you have any.

I can't speak for you or anything, I was just saying what this article said:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1731416/pdf/v054p00348.pdf

If you have issues with the article, don't blame me, lol. Anyway, we're talking about bruises left from just before a person dies, when they are being examined in an autopsy. In darker-skinned people the bruises are not obvious as quickly sometimes, so one has to look carefully. I vaguely recall a case like that where a body was exhumed and thy found bruising that the original autopsy missed. I think I was pretty young at the time and don't remember anything more then that. I thing it was something like a woman who had been murdered, but t was ruled an accidental fall in the shower, but that's all I remember.

[Omorose Panya]

Metheshrew

Honey, I'm darker than Zimmerman and not even only a few shades lighter than Trayvon was. I can assure you that bruising can easily be spoted no matter what skin tone a person is.

I suggest you change your skin color, get bruised, and examine the bruises before you make bullshit posts about how bruises can't be seen on dark skin. Either that, or you should ask a friend of yours that has dark skin assuming you have any.

The problem is that this is not about you, but about darker skinned people in general. It's actually good that it is being pointed out. I remember training in the medical field that the textbooks would read asif everyone were white. Lighter skinned folks' skin and darker skinned folks' skin do not behavior the same way and it is dangerous to not account for the differences!

To counter your example, I am lighter than Trayvon and, though I bruise easily, it takes a lot to actually see a bruise on me. But I suspect that is moreso because I am already a rosey color and my bruises are a rosey color. 4laugh

Anyway, that is not to suggest that it is difficult to see bruising on all darker people, but that as a general rule it is much easier to not notice them because they don't stand out as easily as they do on lighter skin.

[Fearherloveher]

Omorose Panya

Metheshrew

Honey, I'm darker than Zimmerman and not even only a few shades lighter than Trayvon was. I can assure you that bruising can easily be spoted no matter what skin tone a person is.

I suggest you change your skin color, get bruised, and examine the bruises before you make bullshit posts about how bruises can't be seen on dark skin. Either that, or you should ask a friend of yours that has dark skin assuming you have any.

The problem is that this is not about you, but about darker skinned people in general. It's actually good that it is being pointed out. I remember training in the medical field that the textbooks would read asif everyone were white. Lighter skinned folks' skin and darker skinned folks' skin do not behavior the same way and it is dangerous to not account for the differences!

To counter your example, I am lighter than Trayvon and, though I bruise easily, it takes a lot to actually see a bruise on me. But I suspect that is moreso because I am already a rosey color and my bruises are a rosey color. 4laugh

Anyway, that is not to suggest that it is difficult to see bruising on all darker people, but that as a general rule it is much easier to not notice them because they don't stand out as easily as they do on lighter skin.

While this is true, we should also consider the fact that just because scars and bruises may be less noticeable on darker skinned people does not mean that they cannot be seen under any circumstances. The funeral director was looking for bruises. Yes, it may be hard to see on his skin, BUT I'm sure he could have found some bruises if he wanted to. We should also consider the fact that the funeral director would have no personal gain by lying about it.

[Omorose Panya]

Metheshrew

Just because they are difficult to see doesn't mean that they can't or won't be seen. If that were true then we would have seen the supposed bruises on Zimmerman's much lighter skin.

On a side note, my dad is about as dark as the model and bruises pretty easily. How would I know this? Because I can see them. He also has several visible scars on his legs and arms from his childhood.

We totally shouldn't acknowledge facts and develop techniques that are more suited to help them because that would disrupt your understanding of reality. rolleyes

When you can come up with something that contradicts my medical knowledge, let me know.

[Fearherloveher]

Omorose Panya

Metheshrew

Just because they are difficult to see doesn't mean that they can't or won't be seen. If that were true then we would have seen the supposed bruises on Zimmerman's much lighter skin.

On a side note, my dad is about as dark as the model and bruises pretty easily. How would I know this? Because I can see them. He also has several visible scars on his legs and arms from his childhood.

We totally shouldn't acknowledge facts and develop techniques that are more suited to help them because that would disrupt your understanding of reality. rolleyes

When you can come up with something that contradicts my medical knowledge, let me know.

I wasn't trying to contradict your medical knowledge, Omorose. I was actually agreeing with you. neutral I simply went on to state that because bruises are harder to see on some than others does not mean that they can't be seen, especially when we are looking for them.

[Omorose Panya]

Metheshrew

While this is true, we should also consider the fact that just because scars and bruises may be less noticeable on darker skinned people does not mean that they cannot be seen under any circumstances. The funeral director was looking for bruises. Yes, it may be hard to see on his skin, BUT I'm sure he could have found some bruises if he wanted to. We should also consider the fact that the funeral director would have no personal gain by lying about it.

Mind direct quoting arguing saying that they cannot be seen under any circumstance? Either way, in some cases you're better off figuring it out in other ways.

My argument has nothing to do with the funeral director. That is between Tactical and Kasumi.

[Fearherloveher]

Omorose Panya

Metheshrew

While this is true, we should also consider the fact that just because scars and bruises may be less noticeable on darker skinned people does not mean that they cannot be seen under any circumstances. The funeral director was looking for bruises. Yes, it may be hard to see on his skin, BUT I'm sure he could have found some bruises if he wanted to. We should also consider the fact that the funeral director would have no personal gain by lying about it.

Mind direct quoting arguing saying that they cannot be seen under any circumstance? Either way, in some cases you're better off figuring it out in other ways.

My argument has nothing to do with the funeral director. That is between Tactical and Kasumi.

I didn't say they cannot be seen under any circumstance.

[Omorose Panya]

Metheshrew

Omorose Panya

Metheshrew

Just because they are difficult to see doesn't mean that they can't or won't be seen. If that were true then we would have seen the supposed bruises on Zimmerman's much lighter skin.

On a side note, my dad is about as dark as the model and bruises pretty easily. How would I know this? Because I can see them. He also has several visible scars on his legs and arms from his childhood.

We totally shouldn't acknowledge facts and develop techniques that are more suited to help them because that would disrupt your understanding of reality. rolleyes

When you can come up with something that contradicts my medical knowledge, let me know.

I wasn't trying to contradict your medical knowledge, Omorose. I was actually agreeing with you. neutral I simply went on to state that because bruises are harder to see on some than others does not mean that they can't be seen, especially when we are looking for them.

Apologies, then.

My point is that that is not a good method. Sometimes they are near impossible to see because of the skintone contrast. There are other methods of identifying bruises that are more useful in those cases. 3nodding