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Ammo Amy
The Sky Does Not Bow
Ammo Amy
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Sure, but it doesn't matter,
Canada doesn't have the death penalty at all.
And really, it's not my fault the police suck at their job.

Oh, I get it now.

And it's not the police that suck at their job, it's generally bad/unskilled defense attorneys, overzealous prosecutors, preconceived notions, and a thirst for "justice" (revenge) that will earn an innocent person a death penalty. With the advent of DNA testing, many have been cleared of the crimes they were accused of, although it has taken up to 20 years or more to do so.

Also, you know, prejudice and discrimination.

Which is why minorities make up the majority of prison inmates while being a minority of all criminals.


That's what "preconceived notions" cover.

yeah but it kind of sidesteps the issue.
Demon Kagerou's avatar

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I'm not too keen on giving governments the authority to murder its citizens. These aren't acts of self-defense, but expensive, long drawn out affairs that even get as detailed as the means the person will be executed by.

Most other developed counties, and even some not so developed, manage to do without the death penalty just fine. Usually by life in prison. But then, like so many other things in this country, our prison systems are in serious need of rethinking themselves.
The Sky Does Not Bow
Ammo Amy
The Sky Does Not Bow
Ammo Amy
PikachuBaller

Sure, but it doesn't matter,
Canada doesn't have the death penalty at all.
And really, it's not my fault the police suck at their job.

Oh, I get it now.

And it's not the police that suck at their job, it's generally bad/unskilled defense attorneys, overzealous prosecutors, preconceived notions, and a thirst for "justice" (revenge) that will earn an innocent person a death penalty. With the advent of DNA testing, many have been cleared of the crimes they were accused of, although it has taken up to 20 years or more to do so.

Also, you know, prejudice and discrimination.

Which is why minorities make up the majority of prison inmates while being a minority of all criminals.


That's what "preconceived notions" cover.

yeah but it kind of sidesteps the issue.

And yet encompasses social status, background, upbringing, mental capacity, etc. One doesn't have to be a minority to be presumed guilty.
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murderers are prone to murdering again. There is a reason that they are kept in maximum security prisons. Just because someone is in prison, doesn't mean he can't keep killing.

Life in prison without parole...... living together with other prisoners serving maybe minimal time for stealing or other minor things. What did they do to deserve to be put in a place together with a serial killer? and don't tell me things like "oh they can be sectioned" there is huge over crowding esp in California. I doubt anyone will have to luxury to provide these ppl their own little section. It is also a different type of cruel and unusual punishment for those without life in prison without parole

Perhaps it will turn into deadman's wonderland anime. I'm jk on this part of course.



plus, this will get rid of habeas corpus. Though it's not killing the person, once guilty they're always considered guilty. slim to none chance to prove innocence again. It's a step back in legal system where one has the right to a fair trial.

murderers must be held accountable for what they have done. This isn't for revenge but for further murders.
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sweetune
murderers are prone to murdering again. There is a reason that they are kept in maximum security prisons. Just because someone is in prison, doesn't mean he can't keep killing.
Not rly. Only applies to a narrow subset of murderers.

According to the Bureau of Justice;

Quote:
Released prisoners with the highest rearrest rates were robbers (70.2%), burglars (74.0%), larcenists (74.6%), motor vehicle thieves (78.8%), those in prison for possessing or selling stolen property (77.4%), and those in prison for possessing, using, or selling illegal weapons (70.2%).
Within 3 years, 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide.


You are also more likely to murder or rape somebody you know than a stranger.
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Wendigo
sweetune
murderers are prone to murdering again. There is a reason that they are kept in maximum security prisons. Just because someone is in prison, doesn't mean he can't keep killing.
Not rly. Only applies to a narrow subset of murderers.

According to the Bureau of Justice;

Quote:
Released prisoners with the highest rearrest rates were robbers (70.2%), burglars (74.0%), larcenists (74.6%), motor vehicle thieves (78.8%), those in prison for possessing or selling stolen property (77.4%), and those in prison for possessing, using, or selling illegal weapons (70.2%).
Within 3 years, 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide.


You are also more likely to murder or rape somebody you know than a stranger.


according to a study done for recidivism in Florida state released in 2009 the recidivism rate for murderers was 25% after release.

5,791 murderers. 3% was released. 25% murdered again. That's at least another 44 innocent ppl killed.

this is a human life, 1/4 chance that the ppl released will murder again..... i don't wanna gamble that kind of thing.




source: http://www.dc.state.fl.us/secretary/press/2010/RecidivismStudy.pdf
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sweetune


according to a study done for recidivism in Florida state released in 2009 the recidivism rate for murderers was 25% after release.

5,791 murderers. 3% was released. 25% murdered again. That's at least another 44 innocent ppl killed.

this is a human life, 1/4 chance that the ppl released will murder again..... i don't wanna gamble that kind of thing.




source: http://www.dc.state.fl.us/secretary/press/2010/RecidivismStudy.pdf
So the study which says this:

Quote:
The graph above shows that among inmates who were in prison for violent offenses, those in for murder or manslaughter have the lowest recidivism rates. Inmates in for robbery offenses have higher than average recidivism rates.


Which, as I have noted, says that a murderer is less likely to murder again than a robber is to rob again.
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Wendigo
[

Quote:
The graph above shows that among inmates who were in prison for violent offenses, those in for murder or manslaughter have the lowest recidivism rates. Inmates in for robbery offenses have higher than average recidivism rates.


Which, as I have noted, says that a murderer is less likely to murder again than a robber is to rob again.


recidivism rate for robbery or theft was about 40.8%. Of coruse 40% is much more than murder because stealing doesn't risk someone's life most of the time. It's easier to do with not as much guilt.

There were 27,277 people who were imprisoned for stealing. 40% of the people released did it again.

5,791 killed ppl. out of 3% of the people released 25% did it again. I really don't want to imagine what all those people can do out in this world if they actually went through the whole system and were judged to be executed.

your stats and reasoning doesn't make sense. That's like saying since it won't happen to you, you don't care if other ppl have to suffer. They will be the minority so screw them! Though when ppl steal from you, all you have to do is work hard to collect money and buy it again. But a human life is different. don't put a human life and something like money as the same thing.
I just watched the movie I Want to Live! starring Susan Hayward as convicted (and executed) murderer Barbara Graham. Then I check out the Wikipedia page etc.

To summarize, the real-life Barbara Graham was arrested along with two accomplices for the murder of 64-year old Mabel Monahan, who was killed in the course of an otherwise fruitless burglary. Barbara's accomplices were John Santo and Emmett Perkins. A fourth person, John True was arrested in connection to the case. The man who tipped off police, Baxter Shorter, was kidnapped and subsebquently disappeared after newspaper reports announced that a suspect was in custody.

John True, who had no criminal record, agreed to testify against Graham, Perkins, and Santo in return for immunity. These three were arrested on May 4, 1953, after apparently deliberately trying to make themselves scarce.

Graham was the focus of almost all media attention in the case, most of it biased, as well she was the "key defendant" which was not really the case. 32 years old, she was, more or less, a lifelong and fairly sordid petty criminal (including prostitution offences), however with no history of violent offenses - unlike her two accomplices.

Graham made the mistake of trying to procure a false alibi. A fellow prisoner was offered time served for her sentence of vehicular manslaughter by the authorities. An undercover police officer named Sam Sirianni recorded fairly damning testimony, including the admission she was at the scene of the crime. Graham made the further mistake at the trial of claiming that she with her husband Henry and her infant son. Henry, however was a heroin addict and his testimony proved basically useless in providing her with an alibi.

The jury found all three guilty under five hours of deliberation and they were all sentenced to death. Barbara Graham was executed in the San Quentin gas chamber on June 3 1955 and was pronounced dead at 11:42 AM. The two others were executed later the same day.

As for the film, it fairly leans to the thesis that Graham was innocent. The police are depicted as shopping around the offer of immunity to the fictive Graham, who rejects it. The circumstances of her arrest are fictionalized for dramatic purposes. The movie itself is obvious anti-capital punishment advocacy. The gas chamber sequence is meticulously accurately depicted.

The gambit of making a deal with a fellow inmate to entrap her would be totally illegal today. Ironically, in 1947 Graham was convicted for perjury for providing a false alibi.

The thing I find interesting is that, given a murder has been committed and it has been narrowed down to three suspects and no other basis to narrow the actual culpability further, that in essence the guilt is attributed to a quantum superposition of all three, who must in consequence all be executed. Especially disturbing since it was all on the testimony of only one man. Shorter, incidentally, descibed the victim as being pistol-whipped by Perkins, whereas True described Graham as having done that.
Ban's avatar

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sweetune
5,791 killed ppl. out of 3% of the people released 25% did it again. I really don't want to imagine what all those people can do out in this world if they actually went through the whole system and were judged to be executed.
Recidivism in your study is defined as return to prison, not having committed the same crime. This study does not appear to actually track the number of homicides on a person's record, or the number of arrests for homicide or manslaughter, but only whether their worst offense was a homicide.

As Wendigo pointed out, the Bureau of Justice Statistics shows that less than two percent of murderers released go on to murder again. Which means the other twenty three percent are probably getting picked up for robbery or drug use or something else.
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On the topic of homicide statistics, it has been my understanding, and the empirical evidence supports this, that 60% of the time, they re-offend every time.
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sweetune
Of coruse 40% is much more than murder because stealing doesn't risk someone's life most of the time. It's easier to do with not as much guilt.
Certainly that is true.

Also, most people wait for a motive before killing somebody. I would imagine that the single-digit reoffenders in that first three years are either involved in organized crime (like gang violence, drug dealing) or are, you know, serial killers.

Of course, if they release you on your own recognizance after a murder conviction, they probably expect that you've been chastened by your decade plus in prison, that you haven't been accumulating new murder motives against your old acquaintances, and that (particularly if you served a full 'life' sentence) you might not be able quite to cope physically with acts of bloody violence.

But one can't predict everything.

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