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You also seem to be forgetting the part where adult rats will often be very aggressive to potential companions, as they're territorial-- both males and females. A companion introduced at a young age is generally a good idea, but as an adult rat, the chances of a pair fighting and serious harm or death taking place are pretty high.


I would appreciate some serious concrete evidence supporting this.
I've been breeding rats and working with animals, and animal behavior, for a long time now.
I would appreciate seeing some serious information on this merely because i've never really had issues in this, and all of my males are bonded. Even the adult males I introduce later on, to my already adult males. I've only had one aggressive rat during my time, and she was only aggressive towards younger rats, none her own age.

I'm also the manager of a mom and pop pet store, where we constantly plop feeder rats all together and surprisingly, i've never had any aggression issues in the store. In my time i've probably seen thousands of rats go through my store, if not more.

Rats are just not as territorial as people believe. In fact the times i've had to separate a rat for whatever reason, being that they're sick, i've had them try to escape just to get back to ANY rat in the house, and when they can't seek out a rat they seek out humans.

Rats crave companionship, they're a social pack animal. Even in the wild, they crave companions.

Which? That rats are territorial?

Here's what I got from a quick google search. Google rat behavior and I'm sure you'll find plenty on the subject.

Quote:
If you still are set on getting a solitary rat, there are options out there.

Due to bad breeding, bad raising, or just a simple personality quirk, there are rats who are too aggressive to their own species (but often just sweet as can be with people) to live with other rats.

Often a male will bond to only one brother, and when that brother dies (sometimes too young...), he will refuse or attack any rats that an owner tries to place him with. These rats are most commonly males and can be found at rescues or even at a breeder (who may be trying to find the rat a home where he can be by himself). If you choose to get this kind of rat, you need to understand he will be more work than a social pair would be. He will need a lot of toys (a rag to cuddle seems to make them feel more comfortable) and a lot of attention.

http://www.curiousv.com/curiosityrats/files/infolone.html


A human is companionship. It may not be ideal to only have one rat, but some rats cannot be with other rats, and to have one rat is not somehow a terrible thing. It is not ideal, but it is not inherently bad.
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To be fair:

OP, no one said for you to die in a hole or that you're a terrible person.
And, plenty more than just one person didn't 'yell' at you. Many offered cage recommendations on sites like Amazon and reminded that Craigslist can be a great place for cheap cages.

Everyone else:
Pine shavings aren't like supersuper you're-gonna-die-in-two-hours bad. Their toxicity is still disputed, even. Although bajillions of care sites recommend against pine, the concrete scientific studies and evidence pointing out that's it's harmful are few, if not nonexistent.
Yeah, it'd be best if the rat wasn't on pine just to be safe, but at the moment it's a temporary thing and like I said, it's not superduper awful bad, and the rat won't come down with lung cancer because he stayed on pine shavings for two weeks or whatever.

Next, Eisefin, first you said that breeder mill feeder rats have all sorts of issues, then OP said this was a pet rat, then you said that feeder and pet rats were the same, blahblahblah. Am I the only one confused here? xD
If the rat has socialization or health issues or whatever, oh well. It doesn't really matter if the OP doesn't mind it. The only time it would matter and affect something outside of the individual is if OP decided to breed her rat, but that's not happening so..who cares.

Pet rats are generally less likely to have ailments. Feeders are more likely to go unchecked/unhealthy than a rat bred and selected to be a pet. That's really the only difference and it isn't always the case, but investing in a 'fancy' rat vs a breeder is probably the best choice in the long run.


Mrmm, Eisefin already explained how there is no sharp line between feeder/fancy, often they're one in the same.

Quote:
Also, if the rat is a male, chances are he won't bond with another male whatsoever, and putting him with a female will likely end in an unwanted litter


The Rat Fan Club, which is created by the "rat queen" Debbie, disagrees with you. The experiences of many pet owners also disagree with you.
First, on the keeping of single rats.
Next, on introducing new rats.

Rats are pretty cool with being housed same-sex, to be honest.

The Rat Fan Club is not a certified rat behaviorist, either. That doesn't mean anything.

Again, it's speculation.

I have a sugar glider. He's a rescue, and he's vicious to anyone and anything but for me. He adores me. The Sugar Glider Society will tell you older adults from abusive situations will never bond or will only bond after a long time. Mine bonded within two days.


Could you tell me who are certified rat behaviorists?
I googled "certified rat behaviorist" and just came up with general animal behaviorists, but none specified toward rats. There are behaviorists for cats, dogs, even parrots, but I don't think there are any for rats, considering how keeping rats as pets isn't nearly as popular (people these days still can't believe some keep rats as pets, lol).
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To be fair:

OP, no one said for you to die in a hole or that you're a terrible person.
And, plenty more than just one person didn't 'yell' at you. Many offered cage recommendations on sites like Amazon and reminded that Craigslist can be a great place for cheap cages.

Everyone else:
Pine shavings aren't like supersuper you're-gonna-die-in-two-hours bad. Their toxicity is still disputed, even. Although bajillions of care sites recommend against pine, the concrete scientific studies and evidence pointing out that's it's harmful are few, if not nonexistent.
Yeah, it'd be best if the rat wasn't on pine just to be safe, but at the moment it's a temporary thing and like I said, it's not superduper awful bad, and the rat won't come down with lung cancer because he stayed on pine shavings for two weeks or whatever.

Next, Eisefin, first you said that breeder mill feeder rats have all sorts of issues, then OP said this was a pet rat, then you said that feeder and pet rats were the same, blahblahblah. Am I the only one confused here? xD
If the rat has socialization or health issues or whatever, oh well. It doesn't really matter if the OP doesn't mind it. The only time it would matter and affect something outside of the individual is if OP decided to breed her rat, but that's not happening so..who cares.

Pet rats are generally less likely to have ailments. Feeders are more likely to go unchecked/unhealthy than a rat bred and selected to be a pet. That's really the only difference and it isn't always the case, but investing in a 'fancy' rat vs a breeder is probably the best choice in the long run.


Mrmm, Eisefin already explained how there is no sharp line between feeder/fancy, often they're one in the same.

Quote:
Also, if the rat is a male, chances are he won't bond with another male whatsoever, and putting him with a female will likely end in an unwanted litter


The Rat Fan Club, which is created by the "rat queen" Debbie, disagrees with you. The experiences of many pet owners also disagree with you.
First, on the keeping of single rats.
Next, on introducing new rats.

Rats are pretty cool with being housed same-sex, to be honest.

The Rat Fan Club is not a certified rat behaviorist, either. That doesn't mean anything.

Again, it's speculation.

I have a sugar glider. He's a rescue, and he's vicious to anyone and anything but for me. He adores me. The Sugar Glider Society will tell you older adults from abusive situations will never bond or will only bond after a long time. Mine bonded within two days.


Could you tell me who are certified rat behaviorists?
I googled "certified rat behaviorist" and just came up with general animal behaviorists, but none specified toward rats. There are behaviorists for cats, dogs, even parrots, but I don't think there are any for rats, considering how keeping rats as pets isn't nearly as popular (people these days still can't believe some keep rats as pets, lol).

I doubt anyone is. That's sort of my point. And just as well, an animal behaviorist cannot provide concrete proof of anything. Anecdotal evidence and observed behavior interpreted in some way are only theoretical. We can deduce that a rat seems happiest when with others, but this is not always the case (such as with solo rats who are aggressive to other rats) and this is not proof of anything. It is, again, speculation.

The fact is that a rat is generally best with other rats. I'm not arguing this. What I am saying, is that it is not always in the best interest of the rat, and it is not a necessity. Solo rats who are given adequate human interaction and toys often lead very healthy, happy lives. To overdramatize the 'need' for cage mates is dishonest, especially when applied to a newbie rat owner.
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Some of the assholeishness in this thread is just appalling. Truly. I love how most everyone in this forum is normally all "Oh, you shouldn't feed live anything to a snake" and then you're sitting here just ripping this poor girl apart because she took this rat in. Not only did she save the rat, she may have even saved the snake a few cuts and scrapes.

She's doing what she can for the rat with what she has, the point is, she's trying, and has every intention of improving the rat's conditions. Yes, she didn't start off with the most perfect set up for rats, but it's very clear that she does care. So, everyone should just back off. You've said your pieces, quit being mean.

OP, I'm sorry this happened, and I wish you all the best with your rat, and I hope you can weed through the bossy rudeness, because there is actually a tiny bit of wisdom in there.
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Some of the assholeishness in this thread is just appalling. Truly. I love how most everyone in this forum is normally all "Oh, you shouldn't feed live anything to a snake" and then you're sitting here just ripping this poor girl apart because she took this rat in. Not only did she save the rat, she may have even saved the snake a few cuts and scrapes.

She's doing what she can for the rat with what she has, the point is, she's trying, and has every intention of improving the rat's conditions. Yes, she didn't start off with the most perfect set up for rats, but it's very clear that she does care. So, everyone should just back off. You've said your pieces, quit being mean.

OP, I'm sorry this happened, and I wish you all the best with your rat, and I hope you can weed through the bossy rudeness, because there is actually a tiny bit of wisdom in there.
That's pretty much what I was thinking when I came in here.
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I doubt anyone is. That's sort of my point. And just as well, an animal behaviorist cannot provide concrete proof of anything. Anecdotal evidence and observed behavior interpreted in some way are only theoretical. We can deduce that a rat seems happiest when with others, but this is not always the case (such as with solo rats who are aggressive to other rats) and this is not proof of anything. It is, again, speculation.

The fact is that a rat is generally best with other rats. I'm not arguing this. What I am saying, is that it is not always in the best interest of the rat, and it is not a necessity. Solo rats who are given adequate human interaction and toys often lead very healthy, happy lives. To overdramatize the 'need' for cage mates is dishonest, especially when applied to a newbie rat owner.


You're making a very reasonable point, and I'm not 100 percent opposed to what you're saying, but personally deep down I just have to disagree. I think for very social animals, they crave same-species interaction and do not flourish as much as they could without it. (this is assuming this is a normal, healthy animal without aggression making it impossible for a companion). Yes, a singly kept rat can live a very long and healthy life, but I don't think they'll reach complete fulfillment when they don't have a companion to groom, to eat with, to make nests with, to just socialize and interact with. I think the need for a companion is as great or even greater as the need for an adequately sized enclosure to have room to exercise or toys and activities for mental enrichment.
Your point is very reasonable, though, and I can respect feeling that way.
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I doubt anyone is. That's sort of my point. And just as well, an animal behaviorist cannot provide concrete proof of anything. Anecdotal evidence and observed behavior interpreted in some way are only theoretical. We can deduce that a rat seems happiest when with others, but this is not always the case (such as with solo rats who are aggressive to other rats) and this is not proof of anything. It is, again, speculation.

The fact is that a rat is generally best with other rats. I'm not arguing this. What I am saying, is that it is not always in the best interest of the rat, and it is not a necessity. Solo rats who are given adequate human interaction and toys often lead very healthy, happy lives. To overdramatize the 'need' for cage mates is dishonest, especially when applied to a newbie rat owner.


You're making a very reasonable point, and I'm not 100 percent opposed to what you're saying, but personally deep down I just have to disagree. I think for very social animals, they crave same-species interaction and do not flourish as much as they could without it. (this is assuming this is a normal, healthy animal without aggression making it impossible for a companion). Yes, a singly kept rat can live a very long and healthy life, but I don't think they'll reach complete fulfillment when they don't have a companion to groom, to eat with, to make nests with, to just socialize and interact with. I think the need for a companion is as great or even greater as the need for an adequately sized enclosure to have room to exercise or toys and activities for mental enrichment.
Your point is very reasonable, though.

I don't disagree with you. My issue is the way people have been addressing the matter, it seems very dishonest to me. It gives the impression that her rat will be miserable if alone, and this is far from the case.

I've had a couple of males (brothers) who were so aggressive that they nearly killed each other and I had to seperate them and make sure they went to homes where they'd be kept alone and given a lot of human interaction. I had a female who tried to kill her babies after they were about 3 months old. They were all in very good care; it was just quirks. It's not common and ideally a rat is bred and raised properly and thus can adapt well, but much like rescued dogs, a rescued rat often has behavioral issues which make it bad for socializing with others of its species.
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Some of the assholeishness in this thread is just appalling. Truly. I love how most everyone in this forum is normally all "Oh, you shouldn't feed live anything to a snake" and then you're sitting here just ripping this poor girl apart because she took this rat in. Not only did she save the rat, she may have even saved the snake a few cuts and scrapes.

She's doing what she can for the rat with what she has, the point is, she's trying, and has every intention of improving the rat's conditions. Yes, she didn't start off with the most perfect set up for rats, but it's very clear that she does care. So, everyone should just back off. You've said your pieces, quit being mean.

OP, I'm sorry this happened, and I wish you all the best with your rat, and I hope you can weed through the bossy rudeness, because there is actually a tiny bit of wisdom in there.
That's pretty much what I was thinking when I came in here.


It's just crazy. And a lot of them make the excuse that "Oh, we hear so much of this that we just get tired and take it out on everyone" well if you know you're doing that, ********' stop. This person is not everyone who's ever declawed a cat, put a betta in a bowl, fed garbage food to a dog, kept a solitary rat (TEMPORARILY, WHICH SHE STATED NUMEROUS TIMES) or god forbid clipped the wings on a bird. This is an entirely different person with an entirely different issue, and they ought to be given a chance to hear good information in a non-dickish manner. Yes, we know you want what's best for the animal, but she's trying to provide that with what means she has.
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Some of the assholeishness in this thread is just appalling. Truly. I love how most everyone in this forum is normally all "Oh, you shouldn't feed live anything to a snake" and then you're sitting here just ripping this poor girl apart because she took this rat in. Not only did she save the rat, she may have even saved the snake a few cuts and scrapes.

She's doing what she can for the rat with what she has, the point is, she's trying, and has every intention of improving the rat's conditions. Yes, she didn't start off with the most perfect set up for rats, but it's very clear that she does care. So, everyone should just back off. You've said your pieces, quit being mean.

OP, I'm sorry this happened, and I wish you all the best with your rat, and I hope you can weed through the bossy rudeness, because there is actually a tiny bit of wisdom in there.
That's pretty much what I was thinking when I came in here.


It's just crazy. And a lot of them make the excuse that "Oh, we hear so much of this that we just get tired and take it out on everyone" well if you know you're doing that, ********' stop. This person is not everyone who's ever declawed a cat, put a betta in a bowl, fed garbage food to a dog, kept a solitary rat (TEMPORARILY, WHICH SHE STATED NUMEROUS TIMES) or god forbid clipped the wings on a bird. This is an entirely different person with an entirely different issue, and they ought to be given a chance to hear good information in a non-dickish manner. Yes, we know you want what's best for the animal, but she's trying to provide that with what means she has.

Pretty much, yeah. I can understand if someone has the intent of rescue yet provides something bad, so they should have just left the animal be or given it to someone else, but that isn't the case here. She's rescued the animal and is providing it a decent environment with intent to upgrade. If she kept it in a fish bowl and fed it scraps for dinner, then I'd get it, but she's currently offering it better conditions than most pet stores do for their stock rats. The way in which people were attacking her disgusted me, so I had to say something.

Hopefully the rat will do fine and she'll update us with photos as things progress. I always enjoy those sorts of threads.
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Some of the assholeishness in this thread is just appalling. Truly. I love how most everyone in this forum is normally all "Oh, you shouldn't feed live anything to a snake" and then you're sitting here just ripping this poor girl apart because she took this rat in. Not only did she save the rat, she may have even saved the snake a few cuts and scrapes.

She's doing what she can for the rat with what she has, the point is, she's trying, and has every intention of improving the rat's conditions. Yes, she didn't start off with the most perfect set up for rats, but it's very clear that she does care. So, everyone should just back off. You've said your pieces, quit being mean.

OP, I'm sorry this happened, and I wish you all the best with your rat, and I hope you can weed through the bossy rudeness, because there is actually a tiny bit of wisdom in there.
That's pretty much what I was thinking when I came in here.


It's just crazy. And a lot of them make the excuse that "Oh, we hear so much of this that we just get tired and take it out on everyone" well if you know you're doing that, ********' stop. This person is not everyone who's ever declawed a cat, put a betta in a bowl, fed garbage food to a dog, kept a solitary rat (TEMPORARILY, WHICH SHE STATED NUMEROUS TIMES) or god forbid clipped the wings on a bird. This is an entirely different person with an entirely different issue, and they ought to be given a chance to hear good information in a non-dickish manner. Yes, we know you want what's best for the animal, but she's trying to provide that with what means she has.

Pretty much, yeah. I can understand if someone has the intent of rescue yet provides something bad, so they should have just left the animal be or given it to someone else, but that isn't the case here. She's rescued the animal and is providing it a decent environment with intent to upgrade. If she kept it in a fish bowl and fed it scraps for dinner, then I'd get it, but she's currently offering it better conditions than most pet stores do for their stock rats. The way in which people were attacking her disgusted me, so I had to say something.

Hopefully the rat will do fine and she'll update us with photos as things progress. I always enjoy those sorts of threads.


Yeah, I'm hoping that she won't be totally chased away by all the people here, and maybe she'll post a picture drop in a few months that's all "HAH! SEE WHAT I DID!? LOOK AT THIS RAT! AND LOOK AT ALL HER BUDDIES. AND LOOK AT THIS CAGE. AND SEE HOW AWESOME I DID? YEAH. EAT SOME OF THAT."
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Some of the assholeishness in this thread is just appalling. Truly. I love how most everyone in this forum is normally all "Oh, you shouldn't feed live anything to a snake" and then you're sitting here just ripping this poor girl apart because she took this rat in. Not only did she save the rat, she may have even saved the snake a few cuts and scrapes.

She's doing what she can for the rat with what she has, the point is, she's trying, and has every intention of improving the rat's conditions. Yes, she didn't start off with the most perfect set up for rats, but it's very clear that she does care. So, everyone should just back off. You've said your pieces, quit being mean.

OP, I'm sorry this happened, and I wish you all the best with your rat, and I hope you can weed through the bossy rudeness, because there is actually a tiny bit of wisdom in there.
That's pretty much what I was thinking when I came in here.


It's just crazy. And a lot of them make the excuse that "Oh, we hear so much of this that we just get tired and take it out on everyone" well if you know you're doing that, ********' stop. This person is not everyone who's ever declawed a cat, put a betta in a bowl, fed garbage food to a dog, kept a solitary rat (TEMPORARILY, WHICH SHE STATED NUMEROUS TIMES) or god forbid clipped the wings on a bird. This is an entirely different person with an entirely different issue, and they ought to be given a chance to hear good information in a non-dickish manner. Yes, we know you want what's best for the animal, but she's trying to provide that with what means she has.

Pretty much, yeah. I can understand if someone has the intent of rescue yet provides something bad, so they should have just left the animal be or given it to someone else, but that isn't the case here. She's rescued the animal and is providing it a decent environment with intent to upgrade. If she kept it in a fish bowl and fed it scraps for dinner, then I'd get it, but she's currently offering it better conditions than most pet stores do for their stock rats. The way in which people were attacking her disgusted me, so I had to say something.

Hopefully the rat will do fine and she'll update us with photos as things progress. I always enjoy those sorts of threads.


Yeah, I'm hoping that she won't be totally chased away by all the people here, and maybe she'll post a picture drop in a few months that's all "HAH! SEE WHAT I DID!? LOOK AT THIS RAT! AND LOOK AT ALL HER BUDDIES. AND LOOK AT THIS CAGE. AND SEE HOW AWESOME I DID? YEAH. EAT SOME OF THAT."
Ahaha, I love you. Seriously. That made my day.
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maybe she'll post a picture drop in a few months that's all "HAH! SEE WHAT I DID!? LOOK AT THIS RAT! AND LOOK AT ALL HER BUDDIES. AND LOOK AT THIS CAGE. AND SEE HOW AWESOME I DID? YEAH. EAT SOME OF THAT."



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When I look into your eyes, everything's gonna be all right.


As a matter of fact, that was the plan.

Thanks for defending me. <3


'Cause you're the reason why there's a rainbow in my sky.
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thats a little unfair, feeder rats are bound to have some more health issues but plenty make it over a year.

also i think she gets that she rushed into it. she knows she needs another rat and a proper cage.


If we lived in a perfect world, there wouldn't be breeder mills and likely unhealthy rats being fed to snake owners or as pets to people. They're so inbred and full of genetic issues that I am astounded when some make it past a year because of proper ownership, but most relationships between pet and owner end in sadness when their life is cut short from tumors, seizures, heart failure, respiratory infection, et cetera. It's also a risk for reptile owners. Who knows if that rat is indeed healthy enough to be fed?

The cage isn't the only thing she needs to change. The bedding and her food. She has the rat on pine shavings. Severe toxicity issue there.


and being mean isnt going to make her want to do more research.

i know feeders have alot of issues but ill probably still prefer feeder bin vermins since im giving them a chance at life. and luckily a snakes digestive system can take badly bred rats. wild rats are filthy and unhealthy but snakes can still handle that. i dont need pet quality rats for my snakes though i wouldnt mind paying extra money for feeders who i know had a good life
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we dont want you to go die in a hole. we just are so used to people treating rats as throw away pets because they are cheap but they are as smart as dogs and very loving so we want to make sure all pet rats have a good life. im sure if somone said the same words face to face it woudlnt come off as bitchy but on the internet you can only read and we may come off a bit more blunt or rude than we mean to, that all

i hate celery, but my girls love it so i get it every once in a while. for a really fun treat you should buy some mealworms and give them to your rat. also look up videos of pea fishing and give it a try biggrin

kali is such a cute name btw



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When I look into your eyes, everything's gonna be all right.


I don't think any animal is a throw away pet. As a matter of fact I'm going to a protest today for a kitten that was abused and died after being rescued. I just didn't have the money for the cage or bedding, and I for sure wasn't keeping her in a cardboard box.

I've seen the pea fishing. It's so cute. x3


'Cause you're the reason why there's a rainbow in my sky.


im sure you dont think that, but rats often find themselves in homes with people who think that just because they are cheap and have to be kept in a cage that you dont really need to take good care of them so we end up being used to seeing those types of owners. its a expect the worst and hope for the best thing. but ill admit its not fair to new owners like yourself.

but as long as you make the needed changes as soon as you are able and keep up to date on research then you are a good owner imo

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