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What would you change the item name to?

Madame Fortuna 0.44148244473342 44.1% [ 679 ]
Madame Mystic 0.10208062418726 10.2% [ 157 ]
Madame Fate 0.035110533159948 3.5% [ 54 ]
Fate's Oracle 0.10468140442133 10.5% [ 161 ]
Crystal Gazer 0.072821846553966 7.3% [ 112 ]
Madame Mystique 0.19765929778934 19.8% [ 304 ]
Circus Fortune 0.046163849154746 4.6% [ 71 ]
Total Votes:[ 1538 ]
1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 166 167 168 > >> >>> »|
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The frame work of these next few posts and the arguments after will very much mimic the petition previously accepted to remove the word "Gypsy" from zOMG, found here.

Ethnic slurs in item names

The use of an ethnic slur as the name of an item places Gaia in a tenuous position when trolls use it as permission and justification to harass members of Gaia with said slur. This petition requests that the slur be removed to prevent this issue from occurring.

"Madame Gypsy" depicts a stereotypical Fortune Teller's garb; I find it entertaining in a visual manner. The flowing skirt and the blouse are well done and look like more flamboyant displays of previous items, mostly the Tavern Wench's Blouse and the Gathered Tavern Wench's Skirt.

However, the term that is used, G~, violates Gaia's own Terms of Service.

The Terms of Service, Part 4, Subsection 2
[Prohibited Conduct -- BY USING GAIA ONLINE YOU AGREE not TO: ]
send, post, or make available pornographic, threatening, embarrassing, hateful, racially or ethnically insulting, deceptive, tortious, defamatory, libelous, or otherwise inappropriate or offensive content to other Gaia Members.

Gypsy is a racial and ethnic slur used against the Roma.

Previously, most notably in Morality and Religion, mods have deleted posts due to this. Additionally, when the term was being used in the upcoming battle system, zOMG, there was a significant Petition generated by Tea Didikai, zOMG & Ethnic Slurs.

Many of the arguments broached there still hold true. Following, I will repost some of those positions, unedited.

Deoridhe, a Site Moderator
If "gypsy" is used by the battle system, that is legitimizing the term, thus individuals who use it to troll by insulting the Roma using that term will be able to claim that it isn't a slur because Gaia itself uses it. This is less of an issue when g~ is used to specifically target a person (flaming), but is more of an issue when used in passive trolling, when one posts outrageous things in order to upset others. Currently, under item four of the rules and guidelines on message postings*, other widely used racial slurs are discouraged for trolling on Gaia, such as "n****r" or "k**e" or "w*****k". None of those terms would ever be used for a character in a Gaian MMORPG because of the history of violence and abuse around those terms and their use to insult and discriminate against people. "Gypsy" has a similar history, but is considered more controversial because some people claim they use it complementarily, as if the sterialization, abuse, expulsion, and murder of the Roma and Travellers were somehow negated by people buying scarves and having their cards read. I personally think this is an untenable ethical and moral stand, and that the word "gypsy", like other racial slurs which have been used to render groups of people less-than-human, should not be used as if this history doesn't exist. A fictional "gypsy" character, rendered in bright colors, does exactly this and is equally offensive with other incidents of stereotypical images being used to make actual people and their suffering invisible.

Her statement stands still, even though it is now an item and not a character.

Look at the announcement and how they pair the Madam G~ with the fortune teller items.

It's like they took the graphics right out of the Pariah Syndrome's collages.

Again, my argument is not with the item. My concern is with the term. I believe the item will be no less attractive were another term to be placed in the ethnic slur's stead.

I do not believe the slur was intentional. Much of the Gaia staff (as I have pmed a number of Moderators) has been very adamant that it was most likely a word used out of ignorance and was no way meant to offend.

With that in mind, I have sought to take up the torch that others have passed on to educate on the meaning of the word and remove ignorance in its use.

Let's not play the "I'm a bigger victim game" here, alright? Most minority groups get shat upon. Life is not easy for them.

And you know what? Just as I don't let my students get away with calling people gay as an insult, they also don't call others retards, and they don't say gyp or gypsy in an insulting way. This is just politeness, and it's something that this petition reflects.

A section (and I think it is a fairly decent sized section) of a minority find a specific term offensive based on wrongs that have been (and still are) being committed, lingusitical usage (such as the word gyp), and various other things.

What I think is really being said here is that through history and modernity this word does have power, and that's not so easily stripped away and sanitized. And we should be cognizent of that.

With the current happenings in the news, I worry that the silent consent of the use of the word might only encourage this racism that these people are feeling. Our borders are no longer the line where our gaze ends. With that, the continued use of an ethnic slur, when that ethnicity is feeling discrimination as we speak it, I feel would only contribute to the same discrimination.


*26SEP10* Added name of item for coherency. Added more suggestions for item name.
*03OCT10* Added more quotes from thread. Added link to ED discussion. Added Poll.
*16NOV10* Changed all instances of "Romani" to "Roma". All Romani are Roma, all Roma are not Romani. Please excuse my case of ignorance.
*17NOV10* Added Notice section.
*05DEC10* Added "Madame Mystique" to poll based off of suggestion by Shady-chan. Poll was reset. Vote!
*12JAN11* Added "Circus Fortune" to poll based off of suggestion by Its Rikku. Poll was reset. Vote!
*21JAN11* Posted another thread, in main Site Feedback, calling for the change, linked back to here and Tea's previous thread - Slurs on Gaia
*11APR11* Edited Breakdown showing use of word as intentional slur.


We have acquired an occasional troll here and there. I have been requesting that posters please ignore them so as not to detract from the attempt at this petition. This petition is about this item and the racially/ehtnically charged word associated, not with playing who is the bigger victim.
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The Breakdown

Gregory Kwiek
We are called by the name Gypsy, and I must acknowledge this fact when this word refers to my people and me, although our preference is to be called Rroma. The only way I foresee for us to change misconceptions of us, and for the gajze to call us by our proper name, Rroma, is for all of us to educate others by whatever capabilities we have.

I am not part of this ethnicity. I myself am of white, middle class background, with military family as my foundation. It is with that foundation that I take this stand now, though.

As with the Moderators, and myself, I expect many to not have known the history or the use of this word. However, it is with the hope that through this petition that not only is the word removed and not used again, but that more people become aware, particularly as their discrimination continues today.

Following are links - links to show the G~ word to be a slur, the hardships the Roma have been dealt, and current articles that deal with their continued treating.

Ethnic slur

University of Texas' Interview with Ian Hancock

Account of a Romani experience

Rick Steves' article on the Rroma of Europe

Understanding the Roma

Roma Identity

The Pariah Syndrome, by Ian Hancock

Mistaken Identity, by Gregory Kwiek

Abuse in other parts of the world

Roma sterilization

Roma rights in the EU

Current Events of the Roma

Discrimination across Europe, 2009

Human Rights Pamphlet, 2009

Roma discrimination, 2008

Czech sterilization, 2006

France and deportations, 2010

Here on Gaia

ED discussion of the Roma in Europe

Deoridhe said this
An accurate understanding of the nuances of racism requires a couple of things - one, valuing the experiences and opinions of those who have suffered from it and two comprehending that someone being prejudiced against another is not the same as one being racist; racism is systemic and self-reinforcing.

Specific to the Rroma, part of the racism against them is the way in which their culture is taken, fictionalized to serve different purposes: for example, used as an example of the "Noble Savage" (something which First Nation/Native American/American Indian tribes suffer from as well), or used as an example of how some people are equivalent to animals (something which African Americans in most European-based Western cultures also suffer from). In a lot of ways, the racism the Rroma face holds more in common with those of the tribes of the American continents, as both are often discounted as fictional or no longer existing, both are used as symbols and objects without regard for their existence, and when both are brought up the usual racist tropes used to try to discount any racism against them include, "but they're so neat/cool/amazing/noble/magical" and "objecting to that is so silly; it's not like we're insulting them or anything."

To give a similar line of argument...for decades now various tribes have been objecting to the use of images of them and racial slurs against them in sports. The "Redskins" American football team is an example of the use Gaia is going to put "G~" too in it's video game, and the arguments against going to all the horrible trouble of removing a racial slur form the name of a sports team bears a lot of resemblance to the argument that "g~" is not a racial slur here.

Personally, if I value another person as a person, when they say, "This is deeply offensive to me," my first reaction is not to say, "no it isn't, your not offended at all; your just trying to BE offended."

Of course, part of systemic racism (and any other form of bigotry) is that the first reaction of those caught in that system is to dismiss the person objecting to something as "TRYING to be offended." It is an indication of a devaluing of that person as a person worthy of an opinion and the opinion all at once that is endemic to racism.

Some people don't see the slur. They see the "positive" stereotype that they've always been directioned to see. In fact, some people don't think it's a slur at all.

Chaotic Overdose
It would be different if they called an item "n****r", or "c***k" or something like that.
But merely using the word "gypsy" in an item that features a crystal ball shouldn't be offensive. Besides, the tradition depiction of a gypsy is alongside flowing dresses and crystal balls. Stereotypes exist for a reason.

There was a time that the N~ word wasn't offensive. It was then used in a manner attempting to degrade the person who it was being used against. The G~ word has already received that status, most notably when someone calls someone a "dirty G~" or "thieving G~", or even says that they were "gypped". So in any regard, it is just as if the item were named with the N~ word.

EDIT: In the original release of Cirque du Gothique, Gaia refers to this band of people as a "crowd of misfits and troublemakers".

With the recent rehash of some of the Cirque du Gothique, Gaia has clearly made the use of this word into a slur.

From the release of Arcana Break - "Cirque du Gothique, that traveling band of no-goodniks, ruffians and freaks, has returned to town with Arcana Break. As if their motley crew weren't degenerate enough, the Ringmaster has hired a new fortune teller, Velvetine. Draw a card from her tarot deck and she'll read your fortune."

Not only did the Cirque du Gothique include Madame Gypsy, already a slur, but those "employed" by the mythic circus are bad news and degenerates. This is Nicu all over again.
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The Solution

It's been argued that the G~ word has a certain mystique to it. I argue that another word can still convey the mystery and feel of the circus without being a racial slur in the same breath.

I propose that the name be changed. Some options;

Madame Fortuna
Madame Mystic
Madame Fate
Fate's Oracle
Crystal Gazer
Madame Mystique
Circus Fortune

Post from Ask the Admins 11/29/10

saint dreya
Hey all!

Thank you once again for all the time and energy you have all put into this place! It has grown by leaps and bounds.

With that in mind, what is the stance on the developers using an ethnic/racial slur for an item? (See "Madame Gypsy" )

Previously, when the members of Gaia had an issue with the G~ term, a petition was put forth by Tea Didikai to have the word removed, in regards to Nicolae (see here for that petition).

I have followed the advice of many mods and started my own petition (found here), and wonder what we might expect.

It's understood that it was not an intended use of a slur and that it was perhaps used in ignorance. With the information that Tea and I have provided, showing that it is indeed a slur and that it still bears negative emotions with its use, I hope that there might be considerations.

EDIT: More specifically, I was wondering if there might be a name change to avoid using the slur, but still maintain the "mystical" feel of the item.

Thank you again for your time and energy!

Post from Ask the Admins 20/6/11

saint dreya
Hello, Lanzer!

I wish to address the use of the word Gypsy in an item name, Madame Gypsy, on Gaia.

Previously, it was made known that G~ is in fact a slur against Roma. Why has it been used again?

Thank you for your time.

Letter to Lanzer, 4/11/11

Letter to Lanzer

I apologize up front for taking up some of your time - I appreciate that Gaia and the development of it is a significant priority of your day and thank you for the improvements you keep striving for to make this an ever expanding site.

That being said, I'm concerned over Gaia's continued use of Gypsy, a known slur, used most recently in Cirque du Gothique.

I've started a petition, now over 300 signatures, to rename the item Madame Gypsy as not only is the use of the word offensive to Roma, as Tea Didikai pointed out in her petition here (referring to Gypsy being used as a descriptor of Nicu), but also contributes to the discrimination of the Roma using this word as shown in the description of the group of people associated with this item in the Announcements themselves here and here (the former calling them troublemakers and the latter ruffians and degenerates). This was previously posted in an Ask the Admins thread with no response.

I understand that this might not have been called to your attention.

I've offered ideas of name changes, including a poll so that those who posted in the petition might show what other names they would appreciate instead of this slur. I sincerely hope that the name might be changed as the use, and lack of respect from mods for stated offense at the use of the word, has soured my experience with Gaia; I no longer donate and rarely log on anymore.

Thank you again for your time and look forward to your response.

saint dreya
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The original was good enough for me. Here are quotes from the previous thread to remove the word "Gypsy" from Nicolae and his caravan.

Quoted For Truth

If they had "DuWayne Smith, colored cotton-picker", or "Jose Juraz, w*****k gardener," working for Johnny Gambino at his mansion as a battle system character, it wouldn't fly, so this shouldn't either.

Spiral Out
Just because one person isn't offended by a term doesn't automatically make everyone else not offended by it. Some people aren't offended by the "n" word, it's still a racial slur.

Which is also a stereotypical notion -- albeit a so-called "positive" one, that places an entire ethnicity into the realm of the "other".

Fragile Eagle

Ok than say n****r to your hearts content and i really wont care.
He can't. Not on this site. He'll get banned. Should there be a double standard for African Americans but not for Roma?

As if any person outside of a targeted minority group has the right to define what is or is not offensive to that group. That kind of thinking is absolute, privileged drivel.

Daffodil the Destroyer
A stereotype of a group that is still treated as less-than-human all over the world, however, is in poor taste.

On Your Six
A fictional "gypsy" character, rendered in bright colors, does exactly this and is equally offensive with other incidents of stereotypical images being used to make actual people and their suffering invisible.

As a side note - for people who think the Roma don't face discrimination today, France is currently trying to legally deport thousands of people. They claim it isn't racially motivated, but the demographics speak differently. Italy continues to target the Roma as well.

Kaiba the Revenge
I figured it was a racist term once I heard someone say "I've been gypped." It's offensive to say "I've been Jewed," so why should this be any different?

It was never okay and it's not going to be okay. Just like n~ was used as a way to humiliate and subjugate African Americans, g~ was coined to ostracize and dehumanize the Romani people. Knowing the origin of the word, it troubles me that people still want to use it because it's "pretty."

Gypsy is a slur. It sits next to fun words like "n****r" "c***k" "w*****k" "Christ killer" and other fine assortments of humanity demeaning others of humanity because they are different. You don't wear a "Beaner skirt" you wear a Spanish skirt. You don't wear a gypsy skirt either. An ethnic slur, even applied in "good light" is still an ethnic slur. No matter how much gold spray paint you place on a pile of stinking s**t, it is still s**t.
So frankly, while you continue to think using gypsy is a-okay, you are a racist ********]
If it's not a racial slur, then it wouldn't be used in order to hurt people (physical, mentally, emotionally) - but it is and was used as such.

`deja vu
I don't see how making a request in a feedback forum is making a big deal about it.
And just because it's not a big deal to you doesn't mean it wasn't a big deal to the OP.
Plus, since when has their been a policy on how "important" a feedback has to be in order for Gaia to pay attention to it.

Changing the color of some item = srs bizness
Pointing out how a word can be seen as offensive = not srs bizness
Glad to know pixels are more important then showing even a little bit of sympathy or consideration.

And the "I have [Romanian/Black/Jew/insert ethnic] friends, and they're okay with it" excuse is really played out.
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Thank you!
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Feral Reindeer

I like both suggestions better.


again. We have to go through this again?
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Aged Hunter

Thank you for putting this together.
I rather like Madame Fortuna myself.
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Beloved Prophet

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Signed! good luck with this!
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Feral Reindeer

maenad nuri

again. We have to go through this again?
Apparently... sweatdrop
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maenad nuri

again. We have to go through this again?

From any of the mods I asked, they only could recommend a thread in Site Feedback.

Thank you for putting this together.
I rather like Madame Fortuna myself.

If you, or any one has further suggestions, please add. I'll be more than willing to put them in the solution area.

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