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Ideal Length for a Chapter Ending Dungeon in a Casual MMO? (Including Boss Fight)

Less than 15 minutes. 0.10659898477157 10.7% [ 21 ]
15 -> 30 minutes 0.25888324873096 25.9% [ 51 ]
30 -> 45 minutes 0.31472081218274 31.5% [ 62 ]
45 minutes -> 1 hour 0.20812182741117 20.8% [ 41 ]
More than 1 hour. 0.11167512690355 11.2% [ 22 ]
Total Votes: 197
Tags: deep  village  lets  keep  casual 
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The petition has been restored. Let's get Qixter's attention!


This topic is for discussion of the nature of a "Casual MMO" and possible solutions to the percieved conflict of interest generated by the current Endboss Scenario.

Here, the definition of casual used is:

Casual MMO
An MMO that you can pick up easily, and play for a few hours a week and still feel like you're getting somewhere

At current, the Endboss Run includes the Shallow Seas and Undersea Ledge regions, which tacks on a prohibitive 2 hours (for the average user) to the Boss Run. (Noted, courtesy of CleoSombra, that skilled users focused on a boss run can clear SS in under half an hour)

My suggestion (and the dominant purpose of the thread) is a non-instanced Null Crystal containing area located near the Undersea Ledge that would allow users to undertake Endboss runs without the need for a long trek through the SS.

This primarily serves to cut out a majority of the time taken to get to the boss. However, it also serves to reduce the amount of time spent waiting for team-members to re-awaken and return to the Boss Chamber.

As you'll see in the User Suggestions, there are other alternatives proposed to the additon of another map. One of which is the use of an NPC "teleport" (Speedboat) that drops you just outside of the Sealab Compound.

The general arguments against this will be covered in the second post, one however stands out and deserves a front page because of (IMO) its irrelevance.

Argument
It'll make the EndBoss too easy. After all, it's supposed to be a challenge!

Response
The Endboss shouldn't be hard because you have to slog through an hour and a bit journey through an easy dungeon. It should be hard because it will kill your noob a** if you stuff up


If you disagree, feel free to respond. I would love to hear your rationalization.

Big Red Disclaimers!
* This is NOT a demand thread. If Qixter doesn't like it, then Qixter doesn't like it.
* This is NOT intended to make the Boss Run easier. See above reason. If it does serve to make the boss run easier, feel free to buff Sealab and Endboss to compensate.
* This is intended to make the boss run shorter and less time consuming.



*Header thanks to ultimate dork.
 
     
 
- The Deep Sea Village -


Hidden in the shadow of the Undersea Ledge lies a small commune of mer-people, bonding together to protect their homes from the Animated. Lead by a powerful mer-Chieftain, James, and his military commander Nadia they've been able to eek out a living using rings stolen from the nearby Sealab Compound.

More surprising is that one of the Villages inhabitants is an Animated! One of the original Animated, evolving enough to live and interact with society, Circe the Sea Spout has abandoned her hatred for Naturals, and seeks only to live out her life in quiet contemplation of the Sea which she was Animated (born?) from.

At the end of the village, furthest from the Sea Spout Circe, is a small Null Crystal, growing from the cliff face, allowing Gaians to access the Null Chamber, as well as granting the mer-people limited protection from the Animated.

But the Animated aren't all there is to fear in these waters. Roving patrols of Grunny Subs threaten to draw the attention of Sealab to the small commune. Perhaps you can help Nadia drive them back?

If beating back Grunny Subs isn't you thing, then Village chef Micah needs some Clams to help feed the village. Unfortunately, the rampant G'hi energy has mutated them into vicious brain-eating monsters! How about you go tame some with rings so they don't all starve to death.

NOTE: This is an underwater map. You will drown without the Boons of Chaloc and Huitzotl.

NPCS

Circe: A Sea Spout that has been taken in by the Mer-people, an animated without the violent tendencies exhibited by others. Perhaps another sign of the change that Marshall mentioned?

James: Leader of the Merpeople tribe gathered there, he has some interesting insights into the animated...

Micah: The local chef, has an interest in Clams. Maybe if you go kill a few he'll give you something nice?

Kirsten: One of the children of the tribe, maybe she has a game for you to join in with...? (Fountain Game, or something more advanced?)

Nadia: Military Commander, Grunny sub rush mini-quest? (Think Larry)

Village Layout
= Coming Soon =

Perks of this addition
* Makes the endboss encounter more casual, without gimping difficulty.
* Allows for exploration of the Animated as more than just enemies. PLOT!!
* A new town to regenerate G'hi? Just maybe. We don't need another one, and it may make the boss too easy.
* A late game location for people to gather. It'll get some people off the beach as well.
* Quests to do in SS.
* MOAR minigames?

- User Suggestions (Village) -


spiral45
Maybe you could drop Marshall of at the village, too, so you wont have to rescue him over and over again?

-- It'd be neat to have a proper end to that quest.

Divine_Malevolence
Valheita
Divine_Malevolence
Oh.
No, not after the robofish!
Right before. In the undersea ledge would probably be best.
Maybe after Grunny Sub Commander, before Robofish?

Maybe.
In that area, in the very leasy. I'd prefer it being directly after the part where Marshall gives you the recipie and leaves. You could go into the city from there, and Marshall could be like, "I'm going to stay here untill you get back."

-- Incase you think the Endboss Run just isn't hard enough without ROBOFISH!

Chocoteck
Valheita
Chocoteck


Wrong wrong Wrong! I highly Disagree with most of the listed instanced places other than

the Undersea ledge.
I think Undersea Ledge is the Perfect Place! 3nodding
any farther than that is Wayyy to close to EB
Any closer to entrance is to close

I think Undersea Ledge Would be perfect !

Reasons!

#1 I HATE FIGHTING EB AND THEN HAVING TO AWAKEN JUST TO WALK ALLLL THE WAY BACK TO THE BOSS ROOM! It takes forever and by the time you get there the rest of your Crew is DEAD!

#2 To have the Choice of SS farming or EB
The Direct Entrance is more of a farming area

After the ledge is more EB fighting material

Well thats all IMO 3nodding
Well at this point, the Village is situated after the Grunny Sub Commander, that being in the middle of the Undersea Ledge.

Is that what you mean? Or were you thinking after you beat Lorelai's Guards?


i was thinking at the Undersea ledge
The giant Cliff that allows you to see the Sealab compound 3nodding where one of the chest il located 3nodding

i think right b4 robos is wayyy to close

-- Personally, I would prefer after the Robofish. If they want minibosses, add one to the Sealab Compound. Still, a good suggestion.

- User Suggestions (Misc.) -

Roukaku
maybe we can use that idea to have some of the robofish "tamed"
[9:53:16 p.m.] Roukkaku: or we can link one of the EIs for it
[9:53:37 p.m.] Roukkaku: remember how Anima Adamantea has a description of binding the soul of the owner with it?
one of the NPCs of the said deep sea village finds a way to implant the "soulbinding" of the item into the animated
distorting their G'hi thus producing an AI effect on them
[9:54:46 p.m.] Roukkaku: consciousness so to speak
[9:55:01 p.m.] Roukkaku: I've been wanting to see those EIs in the storylines too >_<

-- The plot doth thicken. That's the only reason it's here, plot. Seems too complicated for me personally sweatdrop . This quote was taken from Skype.

Valheita
Maybe a less intrusive option might be Marshall with a speedboat to take you out and drop you into the Sealab Compound *shrugs*. Of course, since the purpose of the petition is to essentially bypass SS for boss runs, this doesn't make a lot of sense.

-- Everyone loves skipping out on coding!

SoulSkourer
There should be a fee for the boat, because it wouldn't be good to just have people rush to the boss, skipping everything
Perhaps you have to "build" the speed boat, and everyone in the crew has had to have killed the EB before
Only one person has had to "build" the boat before...
Maybe:
2 clothes
3 damaged biochips
5 faux skins
5 harpoons
3 platinum
3 copper
3 silver
4 springs
4 teflon
2 wetware plastic
4 laquered wood
5 wood piece
Some amount of Gold (maybe 1k?)

You can use items that you already have, but not items bought from the MP

-- Viable. Do a quest to shorten the boss run, or do it in full each time. Not a bad idea.

SykoCaster

Valheita
Maybe a less intrusive option might be Marshall with a speedboat to take you out and drop you into the Sealab Compound *shrugs*. Of course, since the purpose of the petition is to essentially bypass SS for boss runs, this doesn't make a lot of sense.


Perhaps Jacques could have the speedboat instead?
Since he's the one to have you rescue Marshall, after you've rescued him he'll take you to the Undersea ledge.
Just sayin'.

-- Reasonable amendment to the speedboat idea.

     
- User Feedback -


Negatives

Valheita
CleoSombra
I'm actually against the idea of shortening the endboss run/having a null chamber.

The end is supposed to be more difficult. It's supposed to be more challenging. The walk isn't that long, really. Three or four minutes at the max.

If there's a null chamber near the end, where does the strategy go? Nobody would ever have to bring defib. One person dies? They can just awaken while the other four or five continue fighting the endboss. There's no penalty or consquence for dying apart from missing out on 30 seconds of fighting.

Secondly, how is this supposed to be set up? Instanced area, instanced area, non instanced area, instanced area? I don't want to see SS become non-instanced. I like having that nice, quite place to myself and my crew.

Someone also suggested not having to fight Lorelei everytime you go down. Why not? Isn't that part of the experience, part of the challenge? You want to farm the sea ledge, so you need to complete a task to do so. Isn't the point of playing the game to face challenges?


The idea of this is not to make the endboss easier. It's to remove the SS from the Endboss Run.

A boss fight should not be hard because you have to do 2-3 hours of farming before hand. It's challenge should not come from a 20-30 minute walk. It should be hard because it will ******** rape you if you stuff up.

You still have to get passed the Robofish, and the Sealab compound. If you kept the enemies respawning, Defib will still be a valuable ring. It's not like the Null Crystal is right at the boss door.

Instanced SS -> Instanced Undersea Ledge -> Non-instanced Deep Sea Village -> Instanced Sealab Compound

I don't know about you Cleo, but I don't think the average Gaian can afford to spend 6+ hours on a Boss.


Valheita
CleoSombra
I didn't want to post in the thread in case it ruffled your feathers. xP

There's no 20 or 30 minute walk, Val. To get from the null chamber to the sea compound takes four or five minutes at the most. Yeah, it's a lot of clicking, moving around, but it doesn't take THAT long.


If it takes you two to three hours just to get to the boss, you're doing something wrong. Assuming that you're NOT farming the robofish, it takes under an hour to do the first two maps.

If you're just in it for the endboss, you could run the first map in under 20 minutes. Only one stop to get unstuck from clams, then outrun or kill the fluffs that follow. If you're taking the time to farm the entire area, then those two hours aren't just for the endboss. They're wasted from killing animated, resting, waiting on others, etc.

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5903/lazyrz5.jpg
In red is the path you need to take in order to avoid the most animated.

The most time is going to be spent clearing the switches, but even that shouldn't take more than a half hour or so.

When I'm in an efficent crew, we can farm SS pretty damn fast. :3


Post away, ruffle feathers. It's always good to have constructive criticism.

If it's only 30 minutes, and a 5 minute walk back, then why are you concerned? It won't reduce the boss difficulty at all. xp My crews have always taken 10-20 minutes for everyone to get back and organised.

Lets face it, just because you and a few other good players can clear it in half an hour, doesn't mean your average Gaian can. That's what zOMG! has to target. The average Gaian, you know, the one with the intelligence of a ham sandwich.

-- My thanks to CleoSombra for being reasonable about feedback. More reasonable than me, looking back. gonk

Valheita
Kabuki Kyoshiro
Valheita
Kabuki Kyoshiro
What's the fun if there's no challenge?
There's no challenge in the SS. It just makes the run tedious.

EDIT: And besides, like I told Cleo, a boss should be hard because it'll kick your a**. Not because it's got a 2 hour dungeon crawl before it.


Small crew = challenge. biggrin

I got so sick of crewing with SS Pirates that I refuse to go with people other than my friends. It helps keep SS interesting.
Oh please. I can solo it. There's no challenge.

Besides, people don't use small crews for the endboss.

-- It should be noted, that he has since broke off debate in this thread, believing me incompetent. See pages 12/13

Valheita
Markka_Desu
But wait, if there would be null, wouldn't that mean that it would become like Beach and others. 'couse then anyone could just come there and not only the crew.

Besides, why should they make the game easier than it is? Its _End Boss_ becouse its _Hard_
If you'd care to read the first post, I've addressed the issue of difficulty and how this change will affect it.

Besides which, at this point in time, the endboss isn't hard. It's a long dull sea run, a little bit of fun in Sealab, followed by an easy boss battle.


Positives

KaylaGalela
I think it's a great idea. For one thing, it might give higher level people a place to hangout other than gold beach. I thought being a cl 6 on the beach and having to be surrounded by cl 9 and 10s was rather frustrating.

-- Never let bored C.L. 10.0s loose around other players. Bad things happen. ._.

Wen Skellington

(Because Loli-val won't stop nagging her about it. Okay, well, not really.)

-- Wait, this is positive?

Dark_Aoekae
Oh, total sign.

I can't tell you how many times I've gotten the boss's head to low health, then got disconnected. It's bad enough to have that happen without the boss taking four hours of my time, beforehand.

I've stopped even trying for the boss now, it takes too damned long, and I always get super laggy and disconnect at the end, anyway. stressed scream

This would let me enjoy the boss again <3

-- Ah yes, remember the good old days, when games were about enjoying beating them?

Wish Resign


I like the idea because not only will it shorten the time it takes, it will drastically improve user life.

It's downright frustrating to have to run through SS, and the time it takes discourages plenty of players from crewing at the whirlpool for the sole purpose of Endboss runs.

There have been times where I go down for Endboss and half the crew just LEAVES, saying "Oh, I thought this was just farming. Bye."

If this Village got implemented, you could pretty much be ASSURED that people there would want to do Endboss.

It also helps, given the fact that there would be side quests.
Accidentally brought that CL 9.5? No problem. Help him with those quests, and get him that CL 10.

-- Do so love a glowing review.

elffromspace
Just wanted to clarify what I like about this.

I really wouldn't have a problem with this null being as far in as where the peni the null crystals are located just inside the actual entrance to the undersea lab. Clearing that lab is a serious task it takes a while, so it's not like just strolling into Endboss! However, putting it after the grunnies and on the entrance to the robofish would at least save a lot of walking and hassle for the times when one is doing endboss.

1. You STILL have to farm the Shallow Sea to unlock this null! You have to clear it at least once and I don't see why it's "too easy" if people have cleared it to allow them to avoid grinding it if they chose. Anyone wanting to join a crew that would blip in to that null location would have to have already unlocked it, or else the whole crew would have to make the trek at least once

2. As the OP said, this is a Casual MMO. I know a lot of people who can't fight Endboss because they either don't have long chunks of free time, or their computers get laggier and laggier as they go through the sea. By the time they get to the undersea lab, they need to reboot, and if they reboot they often lose touch with their crew. Also, many people are tired of playing by the time they get there. Over half of farming crews break apart around the time they reach the robofish. Just because you CAN run through the first half of the sea in 30 minutes doesn't mean you should. If that's all you're going to do then you get no game value from that run, so why NOT have a null halfway?

3. The running is insane! If someone DOES lag out, or lose connection and has to be reinvited it's insane! Running back through the sea over and over is just not fun! I'm not asking that everything in the game be overly simplified, but the silliness of having to do a boring run through an empty sea over and over and over again.... it does not ADD any value to the game and it seriously detracts from the enjoyment.

On the other hand, although the idea of an underwater village does sound cool, I don't think it's appropriate to include that, in parcel, with this petition. There are LOTS of things that would be cool to add to the game. This is just one of many possibilities. I think that adding a later null is really important to the playability of this section, while the village is just a cool extra. As a more practical possibility, why not just have one NPC there to whom we can turn in Marshall Mouth (the creepy stalker) and get an actual reward the first time and at least a few orbs each additional time.


(My apologies if you're not on this list. I picked random entries while I was sniffing for the negative posts.)

 
     
 
- Closing Statements -


Thread Rules
1. Do not quote the first main posts. You may quote snippets relevant to your post though.
2. If you wish to sign, post "I sign" or something clearly to that effect.
3. Addendum to 2., check you're not on the list already.
4. In the interest of keeping it relevant to the zOMG! forum, your signature post should include at least some discussion, even if it's just why you love the idea, or a suggestion to "sweeten the deal".
5. Critical Feedback is welcomed, but don't repeat issues covered in the second post, unless you have a startling new revelation, or are the original poster wishing to carry the debate further. I do so love a good argument.
6. If you are going to argue, be friendly. The instant you start flaming me or other posters, or being rude, I'll ask a mod to remove your posts.
7. Addendum to 6. Be polite if you're defending the Deep Sea Village as well. Abusing people won't get zOMG! anywhere.
8. More to come... I'm a rules fanatic.

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-- Thanks to O M A K E L A D Y


-- Thanks to O M A K E L A D Y

Links to useful zOMG! Guides and other zOMG! related threads
Discussion:
Game Balance Issues (Valheita)
Drop Rate Issues (Lux Fortuna)

Guides:
Guide to Rings and Things ([Makata])
Guide to Quests + Animated (Bria_Teragram)
Shallow Sea Guide (CleoSombra)
Guide to Drops and Loot (Erynnis_Tristis)
Guide to Badges (Mizz Faith)
zOMG! Dictionary (AterAliquis)
Guide to Pop-Culture References (Silly RiRi)
Deadman's Pass Music Guide (Chibigreen Tejinashi)
Guide to the Mother Fluff (Kabuki Kyoshiro)

zOMG! Improvement Guides
Reducing Lag with Adblock Plus (Miserable Pile of Secrets)
zOMG! Optimization through pipelining (GamesTesterJan)
Glitches, Fixes and Workarounds Guide (Sensual Soul)

Petitions
Pet Kiwi Petition (random-peasant)
Make Recipes Stackable! (elffromspace)
zOMG! Community subforum (powderedvinegar)
Old-School Profile Badges (Thonek)

     
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  264. Skysong Moonsword
  265. Snowlight
  266. Ilanaria
  267. Bunnyfire16
  268. AznChii
  269. Eldaggor
  270. Xemnas95
  271. Priestess of Hecate
  272. Yuki_Windira
  273. Silent Sympathy
  274. Count Milly
  275. Thonek
  276. Devilock Draven
  277. Veag
  278. Toxic_Trumpeter
  279. Wicked lady Mana
  280. Dragoon-Girl
  281. Fogheart
  282. A Faker
  283. Xiao Miko
  284. Neriad13
  285. Pasta Armour
  286. whiskey and HALO
  287. Reiss Wind
  288. Moss213
  289. G as in Godly
  290. crzygall2007
  291. Scarlett_Cara
  292. lenden
  293. Orange Soda Man
  294. craziigirl369
  295. Necromancer x Amithyst
  296. ShinobiOfDead
  297. bunnyonfire10
  298. StoreyTime
  299. UnSafe Condom
  300. SorceressJ
  301. Moon-Nyx
  302. Sakura_Zuhimori
  303. morsus lupus
  304. Saburoo
  305. Gellyh
  306. Krusadin
  307. Mickey Mouse is Mexican
  308. Chimera_Crasher
  309. Rena Lyn
  310. ruSzhie
  311. xXdevilangel
  312. varda0301
  313. Ashim0
  314. Moonlights Echo
  315. selfishXxfakexx
  316. iOtakuChiic
  317. MercifulDeath
  318. Hell_Tutor
  319. Kat-n-Mouse
  320. bibortetu
  321. cheekygirl1571
  322. DeathWormNexus
  323. 0o Penguins
  324. WyldAngel
  325. Crimson Damson
  326. Hope Alive90
  327. SlayerBlade128
  328. Yorunightcast
  329. LMAOgurl13
  330. Detective Austin
  331. dmoc132
  332. Coolazity1
  333. pharo212


 
     
 
*snips ribbon* Open for posting.

Now to move it..
     

I sign.
---------------------------

 
     
 
I sign.
     
if my aquarium glows, please, post here!

fairy gifts: 2
latest one from: anon.
heart
Feedback is nice too, if you have suggestions that may make the devs like the idea.
 
     
 

Qix's friend list.

Anyone on there can contact him.
---------------------------

     
Latest Badge:
http://tinyurl.com/yjq6run
Clan | Quests

http://tinyurl.com/a2yj9v
Yeah, I was thinking some of them might see the petition, and like it enough to message Qixter about it.
 
     
 
I sign.
     
*makes a note to draw some concept art*

*considers his artistic ability*

Err. Scratch that. We don't want to scare people off.
 
     
http://i43.tinypic.com/2eeg8dj.jpg

Av latta magicka, av molag anyammis

#1 z!F Forum Assistant.
 
Nice to meet you.

Signed.
Have a good day.
     
I keep forgetting this thing exists...

Quote:
Cyrus Lurch: ...sin no more and Read the Fing Stickies.
Quote:
Sabin le Rose: No skill = No getting far.


Am I glowing? Bump here!
I am currently not questing anything!

I sign. 8D

Thanks to all my past donators!
 
     
I do avatar art, sometimes for free.
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