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Rotsab M. Hyolf's avatar

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Apathetic Child


You seem to have a really hard time distingushing between notes of importance and things brought up to accentuate a point. If you read the whole paragraph instead of each sentence on it's own, you'd realise that I was using the 'tone from Hell' as an example of where more elaboration is needed. Even exagerating a parents feelings, there needs to be something to justify that exageration.

Example: The other day, while doing barn chores with my mother, I did a slipshod (that means half assed) job of grooming the horses before we put them outside. Her reaction led me to believe that she was really pissed off, but trying not to make a huge deal about it. I believed this because she takes grooming very seriously due to the fact that leaving dirt on any animal can lead to skin irritations and infections. Because it is winter I assumed that getting lazy wasn't a big deal since there are less microbes to worry about. After we discussed the subject, I learned that she was not pissed, just disapointed.

Did I over estimate my mothers mood? Yes.
Was there a reason why I did so? Yes.
Is it important to the context of the situation? Perhaps not in passing conversation. But if a similar situation were applied to a written novel it becomes very important to explain the what and why. Relationships are important to character building and making a character more real to an audience.

While getting into the reality of the situation (like explaining what the father is really feeling) is unnecissary, the what and why to the characters interpretation of (or reaction to) another is important.

I'm not a teacher, but in grade five this is the writing I was doing. And it's the level of competience that my teachers were directing me towards being capable of. If yours were not, then they did you a great disservice.


All of your examples of what needed more elaboration came across as too much. The breach of trust was the biggest one because it didn't play a part. Saying if the fire started small, how close it got to the garage, and so forth were other things you mentioned. I'm not sure why you would use examples to prove your point that elaboration was needed if you didn't agree with them (such as the tone from hell).

Relationships are important unless it's a throwaway character. As far as we know, we'll never hear from the mother or father again. Saying why you thought she was upset about your job is beating the reader over the head with clutter. It's obvious why she was upset, and there are better ways to infer how important it is to her. Haven't you heard the expression 'show don't tell'? Don't tell me it's a breech of trust/your mother is very serious about her work/the cops are imposing, show me. Show me through body language, word choice, how others react. If you have to info dump/explain things that can be ambiguous you're wasting time.

Interpretation is another matter; however, because the piece follows the main character's perspective we can assume any traits accredited to characters (tone from hell) are how the character is interpreting it.

At ten years old I was writing about dragons and knights fighting over princesses. I'm not egotistical enough to pretend a ten year old is better at writing than that. If you consider yourself the next Paolini, though, by all means continue.


Apathetic Child


It is very important to do research, and I never said otherwise or that she shouldn't ever do it. I simply stated that right now her time would be better spent working on her style and technique. Time management is also important to writing, why make a piece with all the facts straight if you are still on par with 'See Spot Run' in level of writing? (Which she isn't that was an exageration since you can't recognise it in a written conversation.)

And yes, she can do the research to make this better. She should be capable of figuring out the right questions to ask, or the right people to get information from, to fix those issues. I just think that since she's still in school she has more important assignments to be doing that with at this time. Pleasure writing should be done for fun and to expand your abilities as a writer, perfecting the worldly details can come later with more important projects. It's not like this will be getting published within the next few months, she has time to work out the big bugs and get her facts straight. She also has time to work on her technique. And frankly I don't give two shits if you don't agree with the order in which I advise her to do them in.


You've been arguing with me for a while now because you were offended that I told her she needed to do research. Why did you feel the need to start fighting with me if you agree with the advice I gave? I've said multiple times I agree more description would help, just not mountains of it.

I doubt we're going to agree on technique vs. suspension of disbelief, so I'd rather drop the issue than pointlessly continue batting it back and forth. You seem to have a problem with people being allowed to have different opinions.

Obviously she considers this a serious work, given she tried to get people to ask for a second chapter and proudly boasted about the teacher only being able to say 'wow.' Why post it online to a forum for critique and then ignore it to work on different assignments? If you publish something with the intent of having others read it (and yes, putting it online counts as publishing, as publishers will gladly tell you after refusing your query) then it leaves the realm of 'pleasure writing' and enters into 'I'm serious about this.'

Apathetic Child

I never brought up spelling or grammar. I brought up technique in a longwinded fashion. And I am the only one who brought up getting additional proof-reading after changes are made. My statements are unique to me, I ignored topics I knew would be jumped on like a fat boy on a package of Skittles. And I stuck to a subject I know enough about to give advice on which also tends to not be said in many topics I've read.

I honestly forgot that it was you who brought up those details first though. After awhile all the replys to these topics merge into one pile of information. And many people do repeat the same information that has already been stated over and over again. Since you summarised the topic; spelling and grammar are the top example for this thread.

The top three things that people go after first are; spelling, grammar, and plot details. I don't often see anyone bring up things like a opening 'hook' or 'connecting sentences'. Both of which are things she has to look forwards to in highschool English class, never hurts to be ready early for things that are important to a person. She can practice now and her teacher can help her refine it further later.


You brought up that she should have a friend or family member proofread it for grammar and spelling. I'm sorry to break it to you, but 'more detail' and 'less detail' is one of the most jumped on things, right up there with spelling and probably above grammar. If you look at several other topics you will see where people are bringing up issues of details and technique.

I still don't know why you've taken so much offense to my critique. I remembered your username and made reference to it because I appreciated the depth you went to; I just didn't like that you left out the huge plot implausibilities and how everyone glossed over it to treat the story as being great. She's already said her English teacher went, 'Wow' and was otherwise speechless, so I doubt hooks or connecting sentences are things that will come up. They don't even bring up prepositions, syntax, so on.

I'm impressed with your level of schooling for a farm boy, I guess? (As in, most rural areas don't tend to have very in-depth schools or classes. Not the ones I've seen, anyways.)
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Rotsab M. Hyolf
Apathetic Child

Alrighty, stop. from what my tiny brain could translate you guys are arguing over 2 different writing styles in witch i mostly fallow "Apathetic Child" on, seriously nobody cares how tall the tree was. And like i said the 1st chapter is carp the rest is ok but you guys wouldn't know that because nobody has asked for it... Also this comes up a lot in this forum I AM NOT LOOKING TO GET PUBLISHED nyaaaa... I am however looking for my weak spots that maybe i can't see (yes i can see my awful grammar...) and where i should take the story line.
I did use examples I would change. If it were my work I would change those things I used. However, I much prefer to give advise on where and how to change and let a person experiment with it on their own. For all I know, she might want to write a melodramatic piece as a sort of dry humor. Wouldn't fit the apparent theme of the story, but if that were the way she wanted to go it's her choice not mine.

I was the only person not to nitpick the spelling and grammar, my advise did not include spellcheck. Unlike the two others who brought up the same subject. I personally prefer to have my family or a close friend check for spelling and grammar rather than strangers on the internet. Everyone here is so bitchy over what is ultimately a small part of a larger project. An important part, but in terms of a first or second draft? There are bigger fish to fry. So that is why I suggest a friend or family member to proof read for spelling and grammar and do not tackle it myself.

Telling a person what I think should be there, and telling them to tell and not show are two different things. I suggested a plausable scenario, I didn't tell her how to write it. And I suggested details I'd like to see added, I did not tell her what to write to get it across. Seriously, I'd get that reading comprehension looked at.

Throw away character or not, relationships with their parents will always be important. Especially to a minor as these people are their primary caregivers. Do you really think that after being separated from his parents that kid wont ever think about them again? Even after a parents death, that relationship though no longer able to continue, is important. If the narrator were an adult, it would be mildly less important.

By grade five, yep I was writing about knights and princesses. But I set it in a fantasy world where I could make up my own rules, my knights were all seriously flawed in some way. I had a coward, a pacifist, and a liar among others. The story was about how they managed to save the kingdom together and either work with their flaws or overcome them. The liar and pacifist were tricky but I did it.

My sister told me very early on in life that I should write what I know. By grade five I knew damn well that I know nothing about the real world and stayed the hell out of it as a setting.

I'm not offended that you think she needs to do research, I'm offended that you think it's the most important thing she can do right now. Sure she doesn't know much about the real world, which is causing problems in her plot and setting. But hey, some people need to just let the creative juices flow without limitation. And as she said, she only hates the first chapter, perhaps you'd care to guess why? Sometimes it's also necissary to write bullshit in order to get to the good stuff.

I'm not offended that you told her to do research. I'm offended that you seem to think that improving her writing skills and trying new things to improve her technique isn't important until later. As a highschool student she's still at a prime time of her life to learn to better her skills, and a whole lifetime of research to give those skills a good story to write.

I've requested advise online in the past (with another account) on plenty of things I don't feel are a serious work. For my personal purposes, no matter how good I think something is, it isn't serious until I'm trying to publish it for money. Which is why I never post any of my stories online, even though people in the WF seem to think that it's a ******** crime to ask for help without doing so. Although there is one story I have online, but given that it's essentially a highly complicated fan fiction I decided before I started it that it would never be published with the expectation of getting money.

And as you suggested, since she's put her story on gaia she can't get it published anyway. Which leaves it firmly in the realm of pleasure writing. Moreso since she's clearly stated that's what it is.

She's serious about improving her skills, not in writing the perfect plot.

Yeah, they get into technique after they realise that there's two pages on grammar and spelling and that somehow the OP hasn't left yet.

And as I've said, I left out the plot problems for a reason. Several actually. What do I know about minors and law enforcement? Nothing. For all I know it's a hick town where nobody cares if Billy-Joe the warden has an acoustic guitar. It's not professional, but hey whatever. I figured that people more knowledgeable in those things should be the ones to bring it up. I knew that it would be a long wait for anyone to ignore the grammar and spelling and plot issues to move on to other things. So I hit a topic I know well enough to talk about before anyone else did, ignoring the topics I don't feel like getting into, and you're being a little b***h about it. Go ******** yourself.

Prepositions were started in fourth grade for me. Not extremely indepth, but it was a topic of discussion. It was never mentioned in highschool.

Farm? No. I live in a city of well over fifteen thousand people. Our horses are stabled outside of town, there are no boarding facilities so we do our own chores. We like it that way though, my family gets so busy sometimes that we might never see our horses if we weren't shoveling their s**t. Plus it's great exercise.

But believe me, all the teachers who give a damn are in elementary school and our local university. My highschool teachers were only there because they wish their highschool years had never ended. Ever had a math teacher brush you off when you need help so she could talk about her weekend with the male students? I did. Was halfway to calling her a ******** cougar when the bell rang. I was stuck with her every ******** year, and she never did help me with trig. The English teachers weren't so bad, except for the one who told the class we could use chatspeak in every assignment. They just seemed so drained of enthusiasm. And seriously lacking in imagination for assignments. They effectively all taught the same ******** class.

Blue however feels we should drop the subject. If you choose to respond again Rostab, I couldn't give a rats a**. I'm done here.
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BlueTheDoctorsWife

Alrighty, stop. from what my tiny brain could translate you guys are arguing over 2 different writing styles in witch i mostly fallow "Apathetic Child" on, seriously nobody cares how tall the tree was. And like i said the 1st chapter is carp the rest is ok but you guys wouldn't know that because nobody has asked for it... Also this comes up a lot in this forum I AM NOT LOOKING TO GET PUBLISHED nyaaaa... I am however looking for my weak spots that maybe i can't see (yes i can see my awful grammar...) and where i should take the story line.


What AC apparently thinks we're arguing about is whether you should do research before continuing to write. I posed a series of questions in my original critique of it. I strongly suggest you google some of the more ridiculous aspects or alternatively, warn people that it takes place in a pseudo-earth land where normal rules, laws and such don't apply.

Technically you have published it by putting it here. You have asked people to read it.

No one has asked for chapter two because we have no guarantee your spelling, grammar, 'technique', or plausability improve in it.

There isn't a story to speak of yet, so we can't offer advice on where to take the story.
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Rotsab M. Hyolf
warn people that it takes place in a pseudo-earth land where normal rules, laws and such don't apply.

1st. That would make it science fiction, witch this isn't.


Quote:
No one has asked for chapter two because we have no guarantee your spelling, grammar, 'technique', or plausability improve in it.

Wrote the first chapter in the summer between 8th and 9th grade so yes I could have and I have.

Quote:
There isn't a story to speak of yet, so we can't offer advice on where to take the story.
See above they story line has also improved.
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Hows this fancy edit?
Rotsab M. Hyolf
Apathetic Child
Lord Denning
Lahrette
phantomkitsune



A Slice of Life

Life (noun) -
A sexually transmitted, terminal disease.


Part 1 Freshmen Year

1. Sam the Pyro.
Holy Hell, what have I done? I had water I was next to a god damn pool! I’ve never noticed how loud those sirens were until now. Looking around the yard, it wasn’t complete chaos but it was crazy midnight activities by perfect suburbia standers. My mom was over talking to one of the firefighters which didn’t bother me what unnerved me was the two cops my dad was talking too. What caused my complete panic was them walking towards me.
“Young man did you light the tree on fire?” Asked the first cop, I kept my mouth shut.
“Answer him, Sam!” My dad yelled.
“Yea… Yes sir.” I whimpered. The two cops turned to my dad and exchanged words. After I admitted I had set the dead tree in our backyard into an inferno, I went in to a daze. I could have used excuses and lied my a** off, but then I wouldn’t get a ride in a cop car with handcuffs.
They told me they wouldn’t normally arrest me but my dad had asked for them to charge me as if it was really a minor crime. Dimesion wasn’t a big city with a lot of crime; it mostly consisted of artists, musicians, play actors, hippies, and collage kids (but the campus cops dealt with them).
The police station was cold and I was supposed to sleep there until morning when I could see a counselor for ‘pyromaniac behaviors’. They processed me with the usual fingerprints, mug shot, paperwork, cell, in handcuffs, lead like a dog by the officer. As we entered the room with the holding cells, I heard the warden playing an acoustic guitar, and a kid in the cell singing out, again artistic town,
“Little Ghost, Little Ghost
One I’m scared of the most
Can you scare me up a little bit of love?
I’m the only one that sees you and I can’t do much to please you
And it’s not yet time to meet the lord above.” He was scrawny kid with long black hair that almost covered his eyes. He stopped singing as soon as he saw me.
“I think we can put them together.” Said the warden with the guitar, “Don’t worry kid, Lambert doesn’t bite, unless provoked” The other officer released me in the same cell as this Lambert kid and slammed the steel door behind me. The Lambert kid stood up from the cot. Now I had a better look at him, he was really short, and wearing a black sweatshirt twice his size, “Ya know its August right?” as soon as I said that I regretted it.


The addition of the part 1 is because the chapters I've written thus far have been about their freshman year (a trying time for many) i'm not gonna go threw all four years because i don't have that kind of time. Thanks for everybody's opinions and please continue to add more. 3nodding

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