PL's Peak: Guide to Poetry and Critique (feedback/discuss!)

Why are you here?

I'm here for the poetry guide!	45.1%	[ 594 ]
I'm here for the critiquing guide!	18.8%	[ 248 ]
I'm here because someone else pointed me here.	6.1%	[ 80 ]
I'm here for the gold. Didn't it say it had a poll?	30.0%	[ 396 ]
Total Votes:			[ 1318 ]

[Poetess Laureate]

I actually want to outright block as little as possible, since this is meant to be an everyone-chip-in sort of thread and discussion.

That said, let's go back on-topic with this:

We all know that while advice from someone with experience and insight should at least be considered. It doesn't necessarily have to be followed. Ideally, the writer should think about it seriously but decide for themselves if and how to revise the piece based on it.

So how does the writer decide that? We've gone over some pointers for recognizing a thoughtful and valid critique, but what about the next step? If the critique is valid, how do they decide what to do once they edit?

[Astaire]

Poetess Laureate

We all know that while advice from someone with experience and insight should at least be considered. It doesn't necessarily have to be followed. Ideally, the writer should think about it seriously but decide for themselves if and how to revise the piece based on it.

So how does the writer decide that? We've gone over some pointers for recognizing a thoughtful and valid critique, but what about the next step? If the critique is valid, how do they decide what to do once they edit?

Hm. It's taken me a lot of practice to be able to decide what edits I need and which ones I don't: I do it on a very case-by-case basis.

Dialogue with you critics is key if you're having a difficult time figuring out which edits to keep and which ones don't mesh. Ask your critic WHY they make the comments they do: don't just follow their suggestions blindly! Ultimately, you need to keep the meaning and intent of your poem strongly in mind when a critic explains why each edit is made.

Which brings me to another point: when you write a poem, it'll make the lives of the critics and your own life MUCH EASIER if you know what your basic intent is. That way, your critics can read your poem, see if they understand what you were trying to say, and if they don't, you can work together on getting the intended meaning to show through.

That said, when deciding which edits to use and which ones to trash, always keep in mind what YOU want the poem to do. If the critique doesn't mesh with what you want the poem to do, get rid of it.

Of course, there's always the problem of changing your intention entirely in the middle of the editing process, which can present some complications. sweatdrop

[Poetess Laureate]

Right. It's sort of like spell-checking by simply hitting "yes to all" if you blindly change every single thing mentioned without thinking about why or the effect it has. Sometimes that might work, but often it might end up with a lot of garbling.

Of course the inverse is: be ready to defend your poem. Only your poem. Be ready and able to say, "Well that was there because of X" and go from that point -- maybe you indeed have made the best choice and the critic missed it at first glance, maybe it does need to be changed but now they know what you're trying for and can be more helpful, maybe it's just not really doing what you're trying for and someone can help you see why.

[Astaire]

Poetess Laureate

Of course the inverse is: be ready to defend your poem. Only your poem. Be ready and able to say, "Well that was there because of X" and go from that point -- maybe you indeed have made the best choice and the critic missed it at first glance, maybe it does need to be changed but now they know what you're trying for and can be more helpful, maybe it's just not really doing what you're trying for and someone can help you see why.

Definitely. That's why dialogue is very important in the critiquing process. I think both poets and critics need to understand that critiques aren't hit-and-runs; people need to be prepared to answer questions and defend themselves (but not to the point of being insane.)

But, Poetess! What if I realize that I've made a mistake in my critique? What if I realize that when I read the poem initially, I completely missed the point, and the poet points out that my critique isn't worth jack? What am I going to do about my injured pride? SHOULD I DEFEND IT ANYWAY?

[Poetess Laureate]

Astaire

But, Poetess! What if I realize that I've made a mistake in my critique? What if I realize that when I read the poem initially, I completely missed the point, and the poet points out that my critique isn't worth jack? What am I going to do about my injured pride? SHOULD I DEFEND IT ANYWAY?

Re-read the poem with what you now 'know' in mind. Is it honestly obscure, or did you miss the point?

If it's honestly obscure, be ready to defend your critique with examples. "Oh, I see what you're saying, but the imagery in the second stanza misleads the reader to think something else entirely and that last part seems out of place for that interpretation" is a lot better than "no, I'm right."

If you just missed the point, be ready to either admit that nicely or bow out. "Ohh, I see that completely now. Oops."

On a personal note, I've written poems that seem to communicate -- people would pretty much say exactly what I would if asked what it was discussing -- yet that someone else would find an entirely separate (legitimate, or at least definitely supported) interpretation of.

In that situation, I sort of chuckled, "Oh wow, yeah, that totally does fit, too. Not what I had in mind when writing it, but yep."

[Astaire]

Sounds like sound advice to me. heart

What do I do if I suspect that English is not the poet's first language? How do I go about that (and how do I avoid insulting a native English speaker that just happens to have really awful spelling and grammar? eek )

[Poetess Laureate]

Astaire

Sounds like sound advice to me. heart

What do I do if I suspect that English is not the poet's first language? How do I go about that (and how do I avoid insulting a native English speaker that just happens to have really awful spelling and grammar? eek )

Honestly? There's little point in worrying about whether they're a native speaker. It's irrelevant. Sure it might make you more sympathetic to grammar or spelling errors, but...those are still going to need to be corrected. I'd just simply provide corrections as needed with perhaps a "revise for spelling and grammar" general comment.

[Astaire]

Poetess Laureate

Astaire

Sounds like sound advice to me. heart

What do I do if I suspect that English is not the poet's first language? How do I go about that (and how do I avoid insulting a native English speaker that just happens to have really awful spelling and grammar? eek )

Honestly? There's little point in worrying about whether they're a native speaker. It's irrelevant. Sure it might make you more sympathetic to grammar or spelling errors, but...those are still going to need to be corrected. I'd just simply provide corrections as needed with perhaps a "revise for spelling and grammar" general comment.

That makes sense.

Perhaps that could go under the category of "critique the poem, not the poet:" Dyslexia, ESL, whatever it is that the poet may have. It's neither our business nor our concern.

[Poetess Laureate]

Astaire

Perhaps that could go under the category of "critique the poem, not the poet:" Dyslexia, ESL, whatever it is that the poet may have. It's neither our business nor our concern.

Mmm, that's a good general point as well. The flip side of "we don't care; defend the poem, not yourself" is "we don't care; comment the poem, not the person."

It doesn't change the poem one bit if *enter the old spiel here* -- so instead of picking on those things, we need to criticize and provide feedback on the poem.

[Astaire]

Poetess Laureate

Astaire

Perhaps that could go under the category of "critique the poem, not the poet:" Dyslexia, ESL, whatever it is that the poet may have. It's neither our business nor our concern.

Mmm, that's a good general point as well. The flip side of "we don't care; defend the poem, not yourself" is "we don't care; comment the poem, not the person."

It doesn't change the poem one bit if *enter the old spiel here* -- so instead of picking on those things, we need to criticize and provide feedback on the poem.

Yes, exactly. I mean, it's not as though we're SUPPOSED to know these things, anyway.

There are a lot of things that people don't know about me. I don't expect them to figure those things out based on ONE POEM. How am I supposed to know that this poem is special to you because you read it to your grandmother the night before she got run over by an SUV? We only critique what we have.

CRITICS ARE NOT PSYCHICS KTHNX

[Poetess Laureate]

Well, and even knowing those things doesn't change the poem.

Even on the poems I feel the most emotionally invested in, a serious critique is going to make me think, possibly revise, and move on. A ridiculous flame is going to make me roll my eyes and chuckle - possibly while clicking to report it.

Though I'll admit an intelligent-but-only-trying-make-me-feel-terrible comment would do exactly that, in the situations where it's something I'm deeply 'involved' in.

[Poetess Laureate]

Another common complaint when browsing through the OP/L is "no one comments on my poetry or critiques it."

Well, why?

What makes us want to comment and take our time to critique something? What makes us pass right over it?

For me personally, I tend to click on and comment something with a catchy title, something from someone I already know and like the poetry of (hey we all have favorites), something that deals with a subject I'm interested in, or something that I enjoy reading very much which makes me want to tell the writer that.

[Astaire]

Poetess Laureate

Another common complaint when browsing through the OP/L is "no one comments on my poetry or critiques it."

Well, why?

What makes us want to comment and take our time to critique something? What makes us pass right over it?

For me personally, I tend to click on and comment something with a catchy title, something from someone I already know and like the poetry of (hey we all have favorites), something that deals with a subject I'm interested in, or something that I enjoy reading very much which makes me want to tell the writer that.

My big cue to critique is "C+C." If I see it, it draws me, because it's a sign that the person is looking specifically for comments and criticism. I almost feel as though I'm "entering at my own risk" if it's not there. (Ultimately, that leads to a much more negative draw: emo/goth titles. Usually, to me, those signify a poem in need of MAJOR work. I know it's stereotypical, but I've found that the more blood/sorrow/suicide/darkness/angst in the title, the worse the poem is.)

[Poetess Laureate]

Are there really certain 'themes' or topics that are worth more or less than others?

The trouble with some of the common darker themes such as cutting, depression, etc. isn't that they're dark -- it's that's they're common. They've been done so many times that it's difficult to come up with a way to say it that hasn't already been used.

Which really sort of brings us back to "cliche".

Also, because these topics are so emotionally-laden already, they tend to be hotbeds of the "poetry is only about expression of feeling or 'heart'".

Heart and emotion are definitely expressed within poetry, but craft needs to be there as well to make that expression clear.

Are there any signs you look for that someone might indeed have resuscitated one of these themes?

[Johnny x F x]

Astaire

Sounds like sound advice to me. heart

What do I do if I suspect that English is not the poet's first language? How do I go about that (and how do I avoid insulting a native English speaker that just happens to have really awful spelling and grammar? eek )

i say, when in doubt, behave as if the poet is a non-native speaker and let the native with awful spelling BE insulted.