PL's Peak: Guide to Poetry and Critique (feedback/discuss!)

Why are you here?

I'm here for the poetry guide!	45.1%	[ 594 ]
I'm here for the critiquing guide!	18.8%	[ 248 ]
I'm here because someone else pointed me here.	6.1%	[ 80 ]
I'm here for the gold. Didn't it say it had a poll?	30.0%	[ 396 ]
Total Votes:			[ 1318 ]

[Probably Zero]

The Tao of Che

What I'm saying is that no matter how we act or what we speak of, not enough people are aware that they are completely missing the point of this forum.

I don't think people really give a s**t, Che.

[Hoodimann]

zero the last decepticon

The Tao of Che

What I'm saying is that no matter how we act or what we speak of, not enough people are aware that they are completely missing the point of this forum.

I don't think people really give a s**t, Che.

Some are aware. (If thousands of people come to the OP/L, I say that maybe a couple hundred will be strong poets concerned with how they're writing poetry. I'd also hazard a guess that maybe half of those are qualified, by dint of actual knowledge of the English language beyond that which our media-saturated culture delivers to us on "wings of webpages" and "soundbytes on cellphones".

And some go so far as to actually give a s**t.

If I could just think of........one.

stare

xp

The competent people I've met over the years here has changed, but it seems like there used to be many more you could count on seeing here at any given time.

This forum also gets screwed by the position taken that if poets wish to have a chat thread, they may simply go to the writer's forum. (since poets are really, also, writers, anyway) Well, the emotions let loose in the OP/L tend to be of such a nature that someone can always find a way to be offended, and overly sensitive people are never hesitant to call attention to the fact that someone didn't think they were the next best thing since the previous next best thing who wrote their first poem on tear-stained paper questioning why someone stopped loving them.
Blech.

If they made a rule that anyone who'd had a break-up within the previous three months could not join Gaia's OP/L, 85% of the s**t posted here would probably disappear. (I could be wrong on the numbers, but really...more than 50% of it would. And you know I'm right. Lol.)

There should be a "I just broke up and I hate/can't understand the world!" forum. That would suck most of the crappy wannabees from here like a Hoover on an anthill.

xp

Later, y'all. And don't lose hope. There ain't enough to just keep spreading around like "Jif"! Che, as long as three regs coming here understand the purpose of the forum, it's enough. Poetry, like a virus, spreads. confused

I would like to say that there are many poets I've had the misfortune to not be on regular talking terms with, despite their evident brainpower. Skyhawk and Armor Felix come to mind as two strong examples I nearly always leave out of my listings of strong poets here. I always miss naming them, despite their strong talents, and I want it known that I am sorry for shortchanging those I've missed simply through lack of web access, and being so incredibly rushed when I am online, that I haven't taken the time to give some writers their due. My failing, completely, but I am aware of it, and will work to fix it.

[omgChe]

Epic response, Hoodi. I just really wish someone would have responded with relevant content. We haven't even established "the point" of this forum, yet we are already debating and exploring related issues under the assumption that we have both established, and agree on, this forum's purpose.


zero, your response, while accurate to a degree, does not change the fact that people could care. That being said, there is a group of users who often speak out about this forum, and that is evidence that they do care. Regardless of whether you do, or not, I am taking the time to submit reference so that people will be equipped to make an educated decision for themselves.


Oh, and I still need votes. 3nodding

[Elixir-10 MK-II v1b]

Hoodimann

The competent people I've met over the years here has changed, but it seems like there used to be many more you could count on seeing here at any given time.

Whatever you say. I haven't been here long enough to agree/disagree.

Quote:

This forum also gets screwed by the position taken that if poets wish to have a chat thread, they may simply go to the writer's forum. (since poets are really, also, writers, anyway) Well, the emotions let loose in the OP/L tend to be of such a nature that someone can always find a way to be offended, and overly sensitive people are never hesitant to call attention to the fact that someone didn't think they were the next best thing since the previous next best thing who wrote their first poem on tear-stained paper questioning why someone stopped loving them.
Blech.

True, true. As Maj often says, the OP/L needs a communal gathering spot. I mean, the OS/P has a stickied one, and the main forum has no problems with one, so why can't we? I will elaborate on this.

Quote:

If they made a rule that anyone who'd had a break-up within the previous three months could not join Gaia's OP/L, 85% of the s**t posted here would probably disappear. (I could be wrong on the numbers, but really...more than 50% of it would. And you know I'm right. Lol.)

Nice idea, but who'd enforce the rules, and how? We can't go asking each newcomer "Hello, welcome to the OP/L, have you broken up with your BF/GF recently?" now can we?

Quote:

There should be a "I just broke up and I hate/can't understand the world!" forum. That would suck most of the crappy wannabees from here like a Hoover on an anthill.

Well, there's Life Issues, but it's obviously not enough. Plus, I think it would backfire, because if the emos all gathered and had their own forum, they would reassure each other and thus reinforce each other's belief in their own skill that when they come around to OP/L ,they'll be cockier than ever.


I think that the problems lie in the following areas:

1) The very name of the subforum. It is merely called "Original Poetry/Lyrics," with nothing to indicate that it is a workshop by nature. Even the description only welcomes you to "post your poetry and lyrics here" with no mention of critique at all. Thus, most people new to this forum would take it at once that they can freely post their stuff here for all thew world to appreciate--and of course, expect more appreciation than criticism.

Sure, there are indications in the Stickies about the critical nature of this forum in general, but face it, 95% of the newbies don't read them.

2)The lack of an OP/L chat thread. Maj has correctly pointed out that the OP/L needs a communal gathering spot where the newbies, oldbies, and ancientbies can get to know each other and establish some sort of relationship. With that connection, newbies will probably be more receptive to criticism once they have been initiated in the ways of the forum, and the oldbies will get to know how the newbies feel and thus be more willing to actually extend help, and less likely to bash just for the sake of it.

Of course, we all know how the Minilurve turned out. This takes us to...

3)The lack of moderation. The OP/L is, as Seraphic Knight pointed out before, not moderated at all. This is another reason why more people feel free to be assholes, regs and newbs alike. Sure, we have legislation, but there is hardly any executive branch to speak of to enforce these rules or judicial branch to interpret them. I know it's hard to moderate this place, but seriously, it should be watched more.

4) The writing arena. This new addition to Gaia, just like the Label Maker (for reasons I will not discuss here), bugs me a lot, even though I've posted there. Most of the popular entries aren't very good deserve less than one star, but the authors are popular and get high ratings because face it, most of the world doesn't know what good poetry is. It gets worse when they bring friends over just to give them 5's. Those who manage to lord it over in the popular ratings game get the most exposure, yet are far from the best, and unfortunately, due to this exposure, most people will consider those inferior works as the golden standard.

It's bad enough now that the n00bs complain when they get criticized just because their friends/family all thought their work was good. It will get even worse when they bring in a terribly-written, undeservingly 5-star poem (with more than 1000 ratings, to be sure) and get criticized.


What solutions do I have to offer?

1) A name change, or better yet, a subdivision of the subforum into a workshop and a place just to display. Sure, one can avoid criticism by placing "NC" in the thread title, but how many people actually do that?

2)A new chat thread coupled with better law enforcement. The mods need to realize that not only is it unfair that the OP/L doesn't have a chat thread while the other subforums have well-maintained ones, they must realize that this place needs to be united in order to be more productive. An OP/L chat thread, preferably with the regs doing their part to make sure rules are followed, is needed.

3)I just hope 1 and 2 will compensate for the poetry arena, which is doomed to fail as epically as American Idol.

[omgChe]

How many of you actually have read the guide to this forum? How many of you actually take into account the nature of Gaiaonline, first, before deciding on the nature of this forum?


THIS FORUM IS NOT A WORKSHOP FIRST.


Those of us who have used it as one have arbitrarily decided it should be so for everyone.



That being said, this is a social community, and as such its primary function is to strengthen the relationships between its participants. Yes, this is a good argument for a chat thread. No, I don't think we should have one either (another topic for another time).

The guide for this forum says, "The OP/L is a place where users gather to share their original poetry and learn from their fellow poets.". Even in the guide's limited description it is evident that anyone defining the forum's function as any one of the mentioned is reducing it to less than it is and needs to consider it with a more dynamic and encompassing approach.

We have guidelines on a rating system to indicate the level of critique a user wants for their poem, but again, this is secondary to sharing the poem itself. You can have a poem without a rating, but not the opposite. We can also fulfill the "learn from their fellow poets" part without the use of criticism and critique -- we tell poets all the time to read established published poetry, we can easily define established poets on Gaia by the same criteria. People can learn through their own exploration and interaction with this social community of poets.

I know I'm unduly targeted with the responsibility of aiding a poet grow (as a critic), but who is to say I am even qualified. Especially so, if the true goal of a workshop is to improve their skills instead of molding their style; which in itself is a problem we face. It is this problem that divides a lot of us as well. Feel free to replace the "I"s in this paragraph with your own name.



Alright, I'm starting to lose sight of what it was I started going on about here. I'll just add more next time. Cheers.

[Hoodimann]

The Tao of Che

How many of you actually have read the guide to this forum? How many of you actually take into account the nature of Gaiaonline, first, before deciding on the nature of this forum?

THIS FORUM IS NOT A WORKSHOP FIRST.

Those of us who have used it as one have arbitrarily decided it should be so for everyone.

Alright, I'm starting to lose sight of what it was I started going on about here. I'll just add more next time. Cheers.

Ah! I didn't realize that this portion (purpose of the forum) was a serious point being thought about, tossed around or seriously debated!

I'm terribly sorry, Tao, for I've done you a disservice by only reading the posts on this page, and not the ones which preceded it!

You're right when you say it isn't a workshop first. And this is something which tends to get lost sight of.

Don't lose sight of what you were talking about, because it is important. If I hadn't had my head up my a**, maybe I would have offered something relevant.

Take care.

[Elixir-10 MK-II v1b]

Have Your Pi

The OP/L is a forum based on criticism.

[Hoodimann]

Elixir-10 MK-II v1b

Have Your Pi

The OP/L is a forum based on criticism.

I "hear" you. But was that the original intent, or did it lean towards that after the constant push and shove of poet against poet?

If it was the original intent, then those who are uncompromising in their poetic assessments are fulfilling the mandate/purpose, regardless of their delivery.

(And yes, intent can change.)

There will be those who pussyfoot, and those who stomp, and all manner of method in between, and nearly everyone's likely to get stamped by several methods.

(After all, we probably don't have anyone who's gone to a moderator and complained savagely that "OMG! This purson sed they liked my potery, and they sed I was awsum, and that's just...really painful becuz how can I lern like that??? Why din't they tell me how to fix my writting? I'm so hurt! It was so rude!" wink xd

People looking to improve their writing won't be deterred by sarcasm, especially from strangers over an anonymous medium.

I thought the entire Gaia site was a website based on building an online community, but I don't want this particular "community" trying to "approve" my style/writing for the simple reason that so many people who end up in the OP/L because they're browsing the whole site, get the urge to try their hand at poetry, something they've never done or even considered, before, and get all bent out of shape when they get told the truth about what they've set down.

If it's a forum based on criticism, then the uncompromising should be applauded.

(Crybabys should do one of the following: leave; or stay--stop whining about "meanies"--and push themselves. Harder. After a few months of pushing themselves...chances are high that they won't be crybabies anymore. But they might offend other crybabies! Lol.)

Honestly, I'd love to see some of the whiners at a professional football practice.
Gaian whiner: "OMG! This person HIT me!"
Coach: "Yes. You take it and move on, and improve! Now get in there, this time don't let 'em get ya!"
Gaian whiner: "But...but...that's so....MEAN! Why'd they have to be so MEAN about it?"

*sigh* crying

If it's a meeting place where people "happen to write poetry too", then name it "Chatterbox Two: The Unknown Poet In All Of Us!", and further reduce its value to nil.

Sadie, the person I lived with for a couple months (who alleged she was a "published" writer, but turned out to be "self"-published) was the epitome (sadly), of someone who came here often, but actually didn't care a damn about improving her (shoddy, at best) writing. (I found this out after moving in with her, which led to an amusing couple months! Lol.)

She "hated" to read. HATED it! She has four kids: one of the older two is functionally illiterate ("Because he's got a learning disability!!!" she'd say, something which I never saw evidence of, and he actually was thrilled when I began teaching him chess, and learned quite fast and well. She just seemed like a lazy mother, and a lazy writer, more interested in drinking and her social circle than in having any personal pride or responsibility for her children's minds.), and the other three aren't too far from that. (Sorry. I separated my thoughts a bit there! haha)
The only books in her house (except mine), were kept in the laundry room, on a dusty shelf, and belonged to one of her ex-boyfriends.

My point?

She is merely one of the many Gaians who feel that "emotion" is first, and "intellect" not only second...but maybe something to be disdained.

If the question here EVER becomes, indirectly or not: "Intellect or emotion: which will we serve?", I hope the resounding answer is: "Hey. a**hole. People who use their intellects also have, use and express their emotions! They just know how to separate learning from reacting!"

If I had to lose all the knowledge or all the emotions that meeting Gaians, online or offline, has generated over the years...I would consider myself a poor man, indeed. I would likely be devastated. But that's because I got to meet people who used their intellects and emotions...not just people of intellect...and not just people of emotion.

The mixture's where it's at. I hope this post has been a bit closer to the point of what was being discussed. If the purpose of this forum is the subject, then it has been.

Balance.

Remember: love first, then just do what you do.

heart

Oh, by the way:

If it's been some arbitrary decision because some people found some benefit from it, I understand that. Isn't the default function of every single forum here at Gaia the same, when you get down to it?

It's a bit like trying to determine the purpose of a New York street's sidewalk while walking down the sidewalk.

The function is being fulfilled by the very presence of people.

The absence of critique is fine, but by the same token, the presence of critique should be just as fine.

It's when the lines of demarcation become blurred that the conflicts arise.

A social community.

Hmm. As a main purpose for the OP/L, it's valid, and interesting from another point of view.

There've been enough false fronts over my years of visiting here to know that a good portion of what people decide to set down here is lies, and that often a person's real gender may not be known. I know a female poet widely regarded here isn't actually female at all, but her presence here would do nothing to indicate that. xd

So, it's pretend. It's a game. If it were real, people would be real, regarding "relationships". Knowledge, however acquired, game or work, is knowledge.

I know the sestinas and villanelles I've learned about are valid, but the people who taught me about them may be bigger liars than a U.S. politician. I don't concern myself with the person. I concern myself with the knowledge. That way, I don't get burned.

I have made many friends here, but they are people I've come to know and trust, and in some cases, met, in real life.

And! We get along because we've tended to have similar goals for coming here: learning about poetry and pushing ourselves.

[Elixir-10 MK-II v1b]

Epic post. That was a real tearjerker right there about Sadie.

I come here because I want to share and improve my writing, and the reason I wish to improve is because of my love for the craft. That's basically it. So, which comes first, love for poetry or desire to improve? I have to say that for me, they are inseparable.

Same goes with emotion and intellect. Poetry may come from the heart, but without a nervous system to control involuntary actions, the heart won't beat.

You said something about the presence and absence of critique both being fine. Theoretically, this is true. However, imagine what kind of place this would be without critique, where, say, critique is discouraged or even proscribed. Would you like to be in a poetry subforum where 80% of the poets can't even spell? (No, I'm not even counting the trolls.) Would you like to be in an Original Poetry/Lyrics subforum where almost everything is made of sappy emo cliche material, and all the good stuff is buried away from our eyes?

Critiques may be harsh, and people will not always like them. However, the recipient of the critique can either accept it graciously and try their darndest to improve, or piss and moan for a bit before giving up and leaving. Either way, the shitwave is somewhat stalled.

However, this does not mean that all critiques should be harsh. If you really love poetry and want the other person to improve, you will try your best to be honest but still make sure that the recipient accepts your critique. True, you may give the needed tough love, but if you're just going to be an a*****e for the sake of your personal enjoyment--and not really for the sake of the other person's betterment--then hold it, because chances are you'll do more harm than good, stunting a potential poet's literary growth with your assholery. After all, everyone has potential to improve.

[Hoodimann]

Elixir-10 MK-II v1b

Epic post. That was a real tearjerker right there about Sadie.

Sorry about that. xd Ancient history sucks sometimes, but there's lessons to be had there.

Quote:

I come here because I want to share and improve my writing, and the reason I wish to improve is because of my love for the craft. That's basically it. So, which comes first, love for poetry or desire to improve? I have to say that for me, they are inseparable.

Very cool. I think it's possible that if you have an innate desire to improve, then that's a good basis for loving strong poetry. T.S. Eliot had some good things to say about poetry, its function, etc. I can't remember any of them...but I do remember liking what he said, and agreeing with what he said, as well! wink

Quote:

Same goes with emotion and intellect. Poetry may come from the heart, but without a nervous system to control involuntary actions, the heart won't beat.

This aspect (he brain being part of the nervous system), is probably rarely considered around here, and if you asked 100% of the people who try to write poetry here, I'm willing to bet more than 10% have no idea what the "nervous system" is, beyond maybe a mall that didn't accept credit cards. neutral

Quote:

You said something about the presence and absence of critique both being fine. Theoretically, this is true. However, imagine what kind of place this would be without critique, where, say, critique is discouraged or even proscribed. Would you like to be in a poetry subforum where 80% of the poets can't even spell? (No, I'm not even counting the trolls.)

Dude...the paragraphs I've quoted, above and below here, are fairly good descriptions of what this poetry forum has been for the past several years, with the EXCEPTION of a very small nucleus (when one takes into account all the people who come to the forum), of folks who've been coming here at varying intervals! Now, there've been quite a few changes among that nucleus, and there's a few guilds going around comprised of sometimes overlapping members, but the guilds can sometimes be representative of the level of critiquing people are after. When I look at a guild to join, I determine whether they're interested in running their mouths in lieu of working their minds, or whether they're interested in a harmonious mixture of mindworking and mouthrunning.

Quote:

Would you like to be in an Original Poetry/Lyrics subforum where almost everything is made of sappy emo cliche material, and all the good stuff is buried away from our eyes?

I've been to an overly intellectual poetry site, and the truth is, despite ALL their possession of the how-to and the dynamics and mechanics of poetry, it wasn't a very user-friendly site. They had several levels you could go to, and when a few Gaians went there and just jumped into the upper levels, you could hear the walls ring with the sound of them being bounced to lower levels. I entered the lowest level because I had scanned a bit, and had seen how incredibly swift they were to ban anyone who complained or bitched and moaned about their procedures. Lol. They were like...Poet Nazis, and they did NOT mess around at ALL! Whine about a critique? Thread gets locked and you're banned. Try to explain why a poem was written a certain way, and was therefore justified? Locked thread, and again: banned. I mean, banned for good. (To whatever extent that can be done.) Gaia's not that harsh, and it shouldn't be. However, it shouldn't be just a blanket acceptance of "Once it's posted it must be poetry, because I think it's a poem, otherwise I'll get really hurt and my feelings will be all, like, feeling stuff."

Quote:

Critiques may be harsh, and people will not always like them. However, the recipient of the critique can either accept it graciously and try their darndest to improve, or piss and moan for a bit before giving up and leaving. Either way, the shitwave is somewhat stalled.

Yes, but there are times when people feel so indignant about the form a response took that they take it as a mission, along with other people smitten with netspeak, to cause trouble for the people they should listen to first, no matter how the critique was couched! People who want to improve and who browse here are quickly drawn to threads with odd, but competent titles/posts. It's not like I come to the OP/L and am nearly prostrate at the staggering amount of mind-blowing poetry to choose from. However, if someone new comes on the scene, word gets around pretty quickly, and if that someone new has an interest in learning more...word gets around pretty quickly. It's evident who the seekers after knowledge are, and the seekers after glory are. I know sometimes those seekings overlap, but hey. We're all human here. Knowledge and glory are both cool, but either one without the other can get pretty damned lame after a while, even if learning kicks a** for its own sake. smile

Quote:

However, this does not mean that all critiques should be harsh. If you really love poetry and want the other person to improve, you will try your best to be honest but still make sure that the recipient accepts your critique. True, you may give the needed tough love, but if you're just going to be an a*****e for the sake of your personal enjoyment--and not really for the sake of the other person's betterment--then hold it, because chances are you'll do more harm than good, stunting a potential poet's literary growth with your assholery. After all, everyone has potential to improve.

I mostly agree with this, but there are exceptions. Though it's easy to ignore rudeness online, often it's just as easy to respond to it. I have before. I told a poet on another website that if a certain long-dead writer had seen this guy's poem, titled as it was, that writer would have ripped this poet's throat out and left him for dead, and that police, on seeing the body and the poem, would have awarded the writer a medal. So on and so forth. However, this did not come from the blue. I had seen the posts this poet had written, and the way he openly, repeatedly, mocked the very people he had often turned to for help. He wrote a scornful poem belittling the very time and effort people had put into trying to help him improve his writing, and it was seeing this, his direct and sarcastic attack on people who'd tried to help him, which led to my saying what I said. I ended by saying that if he wasn't going to learn to write, then he should stop writing, immediately, because what he'd been doing was s**t. (Something to that effect.)
I have never before, or since, ever...been so incredibly bold or rude to someone.
The most astonishing thing happened, though, when I went to that website nearly a year later, after having said that.

The same people who'd rejoiced in how I'd replied to this poet were still there, and this poet was still there. Except...he was offering other people advice with their writing...and his writing had improved...by leaps and bounds. I was utterly stunned when I saw that, and after talking with him, found that I'd been a pretty strong catalyst with my post. Of course...my whole point when posting was exactly that! Either learn/improve, whatever you want to call it, or stop bugging everyone with s**t. It's just that...if I'd done that here at Gaia...I would have been banned. And, according to a lot of the attitudes I've seen around here...this guy would still be here, proud of his lack of knowledge, but determined to post as many half-literate mockings as possible, and unwilling to even consider that maybe...just maybe...he's got the responsibility for his own mind, and that to shut it off and assume his way is the only way, because he can get people to back up his disregard for clarity, typing, punctuation!

There's a difference between:

"If e.e. cummings. can disregard punctuation and other writing standards, I can do it too!"

and:

if ee cummings ken not use puntuation and other writting standerds i ken do it two!

Especially if the person who wrote the second example doesn't feel they need to learn more, or if they haven't even read cummmings, they just know his name because he's so widely touted as someone who went against the grain with his "revolutionary" way of writing. wink

To sum up: Sadie once said "It's wrong to not like people just because they can't spell or write well!"
I immediately replied, "It's just as wrong to not like people just because they CAN spell or write well!"

She had no answer for that, but it's just as damned true. Don't worry about improving. Just get the hell out of the way of those who do, and don't be so surprised or hurt when you're not considered a serious writer...except by other mediocre writers, of course!

heart

My older poems suck. Badly. But I tried to learn. From reading, and from Gaians. And...it took time. Years. Not minutes. Not three posts. Not one critiqued poem. Years. No patience? Leave. Upset because a friend was wounded? Check your friend's validity as a seeker of knowledge, and check your premises. Honesty's always a good companion, but it can be a b***h when the mirror's propped in front of you.

Oh, and the tome "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America" should probably be considered. It's quite amusing, the records from the seventies when they had discussions about "the attitude changing machines" which would soon (relatively speaking), be flooding the educational system. Long-term planning. The technology to put computers---attitude changing machines---into a major portion of schools wouldn't become available for quite a few years...but planning? Planning can go on without computers, and has. For some time. So. I don't blame anyone under twenty for their lack of interest in their own minds.

It's been conditioned into them so incredibly powerfully, that the scope and reach of it seems ludicrous when one mentions it. Too bad there's hundreds after hundreds of pages of documentation proving it.

Oh. You can get the book for free as a download. I've mentioned it here before. Penden, I believe, ended up taking a gander at the book...if she ever got it from the grasp of her family member who took quite the interest in it.

Behavior modification. Skinnerism. Getting people to obey through emotional responses, ignoring reality. How to bring behavior modification under the grasp of law, in a way which people would be eager for. (ADHD, anyone?) What a society would look like: more to the point: how easily a society could be molded to what was desired by the state/corporations, as long as one started with the school system.

If you can read this, and you go to (or went) to a United States public school...I'm sorry. You've been screwed. Royally. On purpose!
Or! If you've ever been diagnosed with ADHD. I KNOW that some learning disabilities are valid! I know! However, I also know that most...more than 50%, to be kind, are invalid.

Which of course, makes it difficult to understand why caring about a language is so important. (Keeping in mind that languages are fluid, not static. I know this; I am only a few kinds of fool, not a total fool!)

But being fluid through necessity through growth is not the same as fluid through necessity through stupidity or, more accurately: not caring.

[omgChe]

I decided to quote a shorter version to represent my views and make it more accessible to the lazy.

Hoodimann

If the question here EVER becomes, indirectly or not: "Intellect or emotion: which will we serve?", I hope the resounding answer is: "Hey. a**hole. People who use their intellects also have, use and express their emotions! They just know how to separate learning from reacting!"

Balance.

It's a bit like trying to determine the purpose of a New York street's sidewalk while walking down the sidewalk.

The function is being fulfilled by the very presence of people.

The absence of critique is fine, but by the same token, the presence of critique should be just as fine.

And! We get along because we've tended to have similar goals for coming here: learning about poetry and pushing ourselves.

This pretty much sums up what I've been on about for the past year or so, but I did it in such a disconnected way as to not make an impact.

To put it succinctly, there is no benefit from further reducing the purpose of this forum. We create conflict and segregation by defining it as less instead of more. We benefit from the inclusion of all knowledge. It is our responsibility to evaluate this knowledge and use it appropriately, if we so choose.

Remember that we are dealing with people, not poets, first. And that will never change on Gaia.

[omgChe]

Elixir-10 MK-II v1b

I come here because I want to share and improve my writing, and the reason I wish to improve is because of my love for the craft. That's basically it. So, which comes first, love for poetry or desire to improve? I have to say that for me, they are inseparable.

The part I bolded; this is the bottom-line. And to deny anyone else this freedom is atrocious -- it is the beginning of fascism.

I underlined a bunch of stuff too, I'm just wacky like that. X)
Actually, I just wanted to highlight how deeply we involve ourselves. Sometimes far enough that we are no longer aware that others are doing the same: wishing, growing, being.

[Not that you necessarily do this, just that you gave me material to describe it.]

[omgChe]

Oh, right. The culmination:

Stop trying to control others. Start controlling yourself.





Or, if you prefer, I can rip a couple-few from Gandhi:

Be the change you want to see in the OP/L.
Write as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.
Nobody can affect me without my permission.
The best way to find your poetic voice is to be mute while in the service of others.

[omgChe]

Elixir-10 MK-II v1b

Have Your Pi

The OP/L is a forum based on criticism.

I know I shouldn't bother now that we've touched on it, but sometimes I just can't help it. sweatdrop

She says this while speaking of critique, it is reasonable to say that this is why she chose to shorten her description. The description I quoted earlier is from the same guide's previous section. What reason could she have for changing her definition? I doubt it was intentional, beyond focusing on the matter at hand. Again, any definition that falls short of completely defining should be the trigger that spurs you to investigate, not the placating words of an ageing mother.

Okay, now that the blah blah blahs are done, on to the meat.

The critique options we have outlined in the guide are the method for communicating how we intend to use this forum, or how we personally define this forum's purpose. This gives us a tool to seek the freedom of choice. We do not have to limit this forum's purpose. If someone does not choose to use this tool, this does not give us any reason to assume their intentions or their definition of this forum's purpose. It simply means we need to talk with them to find out, if we so choose. If we choose not to and are still affected by them, it is us who have a problem.

"An' here I go again on my own,
goin' down the only road I've ever known.
Like a hobo, I was born to walk alone.
An' I've made up my mind,
I ain't wasting no more time ..."

Ya! Here I go to bed!

-Whitesnake & Che.