PL's Peak: Guide to Poetry and Critique (feedback/discuss!)

Why are you here?

I'm here for the poetry guide!	45.1%	[ 594 ]
I'm here for the critiquing guide!	18.8%	[ 247 ]
I'm here because someone else pointed me here.	6.1%	[ 80 ]
I'm here for the gold. Didn't it say it had a poll?	30.1%	[ 396 ]
Total Votes:			[ 1317 ]

[BananaSaurus]

Poetess Laureate

BananaSaurus

its harder to edit blanket statements than specific line-by-line critiques.

Is a crit something that should ideally help the poet edit that particular piece, then?

To be honest, I don't tend to edit a lot. Only if the mood strikes me or I decide something would be good used for a specific purpose, so I clean it up a bit. So when I get a critique, while I definitely pay attention to everything it says, I'm usually more looking for general advice to keep in mind 'next time' than for how to revise the poem.

That's true, but given the line-by-line crit they can see where they went wrong and hopefully get the general statements on their own. And usually it is evident who needs the blanket statements and who does not. And there should be something that says if it's not constructive, keep quiet because there are way too many people tearing apart 12 year old's poems because 'they lack imagery' or what have you. Not everyone is trying to publish poetry, and if you stay out it will go away faster. Most people who get flamed are not going to listen anyway, although directing them to threads like this and telling them general things for next time is good. Just avoid "this is not poetry take it to your journal" type things.

[Poetess Laureate]

BananaSaurus

Poetess Laureate

BananaSaurus

its harder to edit blanket statements than specific line-by-line critiques.

Is a crit something that should ideally help the poet edit that particular piece, then?

To be honest, I don't tend to edit a lot. Only if the mood strikes me or I decide something would be good used for a specific purpose, so I clean it up a bit. So when I get a critique, while I definitely pay attention to everything it says, I'm usually more looking for general advice to keep in mind 'next time' than for how to revise the poem.

That's true, but given the line-by-line crit they can see where they went wrong and hopefully get the general statements on their own. And usually it is evident who needs the blanket statements and who does not. And there should be something that says if it's not constructive, keep quiet because there are way too many people tearing apart 12 year old's poems because 'they lack imagery' or what have you. Not everyone is trying to publish poetry, and if you stay out it will go away faster. Most people who get flamed are not going to listen anyway, although directing them to threads like this and telling them general things for next time is good. Just avoid "this is not poetry take it to your journal" type things.

Poetess playing Devil's Advocate

But BananaSaurus, sometimes it's something that isn't poetry or even prose, but belongs in a journal or personal letter! What then? Do I ignore it entirely?

[BananaSaurus]

Poetess Laureate

BananaSaurus

Poetess Laureate

BananaSaurus

its harder to edit blanket statements than specific line-by-line critiques.

Is a crit something that should ideally help the poet edit that particular piece, then?

To be honest, I don't tend to edit a lot. Only if the mood strikes me or I decide something would be good used for a specific purpose, so I clean it up a bit. So when I get a critique, while I definitely pay attention to everything it says, I'm usually more looking for general advice to keep in mind 'next time' than for how to revise the poem.

That's true, but given the line-by-line crit they can see where they went wrong and hopefully get the general statements on their own. And usually it is evident who needs the blanket statements and who does not. And there should be something that says if it's not constructive, keep quiet because there are way too many people tearing apart 12 year old's poems because 'they lack imagery' or what have you. Not everyone is trying to publish poetry, and if you stay out it will go away faster. Most people who get flamed are not going to listen anyway, although directing them to threads like this and telling them general things for next time is good. Just avoid "this is not poetry take it to your journal" type things.

Poetess playing Devil's Advocate

But BananaSaurus, sometimes it's something that isn't poetry or even prose, but belongs in a journal or personal letter! What then? Do I ignore it entirely?

Again, avoid 'this is not poetry,' rather tell them that imagery is more effective, and showing creates deeper feelings than telling, and then bit about abstractions and such. You know how to do it, I've seen it a million times! Useless flaming of obvious new 'poets' isn't doing anything for anyone except making the poster feel bad about themselves and probably never want to write again. If all else fails, just stay out and let them be.

[Poetess Laureate]

What I often do is either rewrite the poem in paragraphs (without changing anything else) or ask them to do so, and point out that once that's done, it's clearly prose/unpoetic -- so it always was.

Is that a nicer way to say the same thing, since I'm letting them see it for themselves? Or?

[BananaSaurus]

Think about what it would be like to put something that really means something to you and no one else on this forum, and have people say to you 'this is not poetry save it for a journal entry.'

I don't understand why it's so hard to just stay out of those threads, if all they're going to do is put a rofl and then leave. Some people here get so wrapped up in their own egos that they don't even notice an obvious mule.

Consider the people who get thoroughly torn apart to the point where they never want to write again. What if they could be fleshed out and turned into a wonderful writer. Seems like a waste.

[Poetess Laureate]

BananaSaurus

Think about what it would be like to put something that really means something to you and no one else on this forum, and have people say to you 'this is not poetry save it for a journal entry.'

If it honestly has meaning to me but no one else, posting it publicly is a bad idea; of course people aren't going to relate. They're not meant to. Or did you mean something else?

BananaSaurus

I don't understand why it's so hard to just stay out of those threads, if all they're going to do is put a rofl and then leave. Some people here get so wrapped up in their own egos that they don't even notice an obvious mule.

Here, I agree. I don't break out the sarcasm and emoticons until someone's demonstrated an unwillingness to listen to constructive crit at ALL.

BananaSaurus

Consider the people who get thoroughly torn apart to the point where they never want to write again. What if they could be fleshed out and turned into a wonderful writer. Seems like a waste.

If the piece is poorly written enough to merit the tearing, the writer has two choices: cry and give up, or take the constructive advice coming IN the tearing and improve. They're not going to turn out to be a wonderful writer if they're not ready to be criticized (yes, even shredding; the op/l is pretty tame compared to some workshops, editors, and publishers) and improve.

[BananaSaurus]

Most 'new poetry' really only means something to the one who wrote it. It's easy to spot these. Tearing them apart will not help since it is too personal for the writer to edit anyways.

Babysteps. I'm sure you didn't get things you wrote in grade school torn to shreds in front of your eyes. If they were, you probably wouldn't be too fond of writing.

[laika in space]

i used to write really bad bad bad bad bad bad bad poems as a kid but after a while i took a look at them and realized how terrible they were and i stayed away from writing for years until

february 2007

nobody ripped me apart

[laika in space]

on the other hand, my mom used to yell at me about brushin my teeth before i went to bed and after i woke up every day and it didnt matter if it was for my own good or not, i was just angry that she was yellin at me so as a child i got a lot of cavities cause i didnt want her to be right

idk if that proves a point or what but at least i got to tell a story

[Poetess Laureate]

The one (indirect) point I'll agree with in here is that a poet won't use advice to improve until they're ready to.

Dunno how much of this thread you've read, but I tell my own 'story' in it at one point. It basically involves being an absolutely terrible poet who refused to listen to crit because she was so certain her work was perfect.

Until a teacher asked once, "So do you want actual feedback on this or to be told it's wonderful?" "Real feedback" (because clearly nothing would be wrong with it and I would have the laugh for them assuming there would be!)

Yeah that was a learning experience. But not until years later, when I was ready to learn. At the time it was just hurtful and confusing even though I'd literally asked for it.

So I do get that -- though I also note it WAS a learning experience and helped me realize, "I need to improve" once I distanced myself from it.

[laika in space]

4laugh

[Poetess Laureate]

laika in space

4laugh

True story.

And it honestly is a larger issue in these critique and workshop forums. Since the poet won't learn from feedback until they're ready to, is it really wise to keep beating our heads against the ones who aren't ready?

Sometimes I just can't bite my tongue, but as a rule it's probably best to take note someone isn't listening at all to constructive feedback and... move on. Go find a thread by someone who is.

[BananaSaurus]

Poetess Laureate

Sometimes I just can't bite my tongue, but as a rule it's probably best to take note someone isn't listening at all to constructive feedback and... move on. Go find a thread by someone who is.

Exactly! Everyone should be given the opportunity to learn, which would include being directed to this thread and stickies, but too often flame threads get bumped a trillion times while quality work gets zero replies. Is it more important to help people who want it, or to tell a 12 year old that they're terrible?

laika in space

february 2007

nobody ripped me apart

tahts because yo da best boy!

[Poetess Laureate]

BananaSaurus

Poetess Laureate

Sometimes I just can't bite my tongue, but as a rule it's probably best to take note someone isn't listening at all to constructive feedback and... move on. Go find a thread by someone who is.

Exactly! Everyone should be given the opportunity to learn, which would include being directed to this thread and stickies, but too often flame threads get bumped a trillion times while quality work gets zero replies. Is it more important to help people who want it, or to tell a 12 year old that they're terrible?

laika in space

february 2007

nobody ripped me apart

tahts because yo da best boy!

You definitely make good points. There's a current thread going on with a lot of mock in it to boot, so it's very relevant.

The key phrase is "help people who want it." The mock tends to come when someone responds to critique in a way that clearly demonstrates absolutely no desire to improve -- for whatever reason and in whatever way.

That's why some beginning writers can get excellent feedback here (they want it and are trying to improve) and others wonder why theirs attracts mocking (trust me, there's a reason -- almost always. I can think of one current person I see around much who seems to flame just for the sake of flaming, and the mods are handling that issue).

But you're right about the bumping, too. That's usually my reason when I do move on; no reason to give attention where help falls on deaf ears.

[Poetess Laureate]

REVISION!

How I hate it. I'll be frank and admit that. I definitely take feedback and things I learn into account -- but usually when writing my next piece rather than to revise a current one. Shameful, yes, but true.

So I'm probably not the best person to discuss and provide advice for revising. What I've noticed is an occasional tendency for someone to receive feedback, spend a very brief time revising, and ask for further commentary. I once had someone tell me they'd revised a novel-length work according to commentary and suggestions in... a day.

I'm just not believing that. Can much really be changed that quickly? How can we spare the writer the frustration of a simple "no, still not changed, go try again" -- and the critic the hassle of a piece that honestly hasn't gone through much development or improvement yet?