Women in Religion

[GunsmithKitten]

Murkier

Nityananda-rama dasa

Murkier

I feel like this argument is going to just become circular, but Ill end with this verse from gelatins:

Quote:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

And I stand by that.

Jello aside, that speaks of spiritual equality, not material equality. It says we are equal before God, there are plenty more verses that I have already brought up) that say materially, or in the eyes of man, men and women are NOT equal, nor should they be treated as such.

Damn you autocorrect! Haha
This is a good point, but if you dont mind, Id like to take that a bit further.
So lets assume that we are all equal in a spiritual sense in Gods eyes). Since God loves us all equally, would he not want what is best for all of us and cater to our wants by gender? Imagine a father with two children who are totally different in personality. He may love them equally and expect certain things from both of them, but give them different tasks to do and deal with them on an individual level. They are not treated the same, but does not mean that one is favored over the other.

Pay attention to waht you said; INDIVIDUAL LEVEL

Religious gender roles are not individual level; you are female, you get this. you are male, you get this. End of story.

[Nityananda-rama dasa]

Murkier

Damn you autocorrect! Haha
This is a good point, but if you dont mind, Id like to take that a bit further.
So lets assume that we are all equal in a spiritual sense in Gods eyes). Since God loves us all equally, would he not want what is best for all of us and cater to our wants by gender? Imagine a father with two children who are totally different in personality. He may love them equally and expect certain things from both of them, but give them different tasks to do and deal with them on an individual level. They are not treated the same, but does not mean that one is favored over the other.

He is a crappy, sexist father.

Also, favoritism isn't the issue, equality is.

[Ontological Empiricism]

Nityananda-rama dasa

Jello aside...

Just this...after reading "end this with this verse from gelatins:"...I had a complete giggle fit...Probably more than I should have. sweatdrop

[Murkier]

Nityananda-rama dasa

Murkier

I feel like this argument is going to just become circular, but Ill end with this verse from gelatins:

Quote:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

And I stand by that.

Jello aside, that speaks of spiritual equality, not material equality. It says we are equal before God, there are plenty more verses that I have already brought up) that say materially, or in the eyes of man, men and women are NOT equal, nor should they be treated as such.

Damn you autocorrect! Haha
This is a good point, but if you dont mind, Id like to take that a bit further.
So lets assume that we are all equal in a spiritual sense in Gods eyes). Since God loves us all equally, would he not want what is best for all of us and cater to our wants by gender? Imagine a father with two children who are totally different in personality. He may love them equally and expect certain things from both of them, but give them different tasks to do and deal with them on an individual level. They are not treated the same, but does not mean that one is favored over the other.

[Cresneta]

Nityananda-rama dasa

Cresneta

Institute teachers, seminary teachers

This one I am less sure on. At least at my local institute, it is all free. As I am not LDS, I have no idea how seminary goes down.

I know the Institute director was paid at least and that the speakers at Friday Forum were typically given somewhat nice gifts (gift cards to stores or restaurants) by the institute council (I was part of the LDS Institute Women's Association leadership for 3 years of my time at college and IWA president the last year). I went to a smaller institute, so it was also mostly volunteer, but I suspect that any full time institute teacher is paid. Same goes for the full time Seminary teachers, when I was in high school many of them appeared to have no other career and had kids to raise and feed. Places where there is only morning seminary, I suspect those are just volunteers, but in places where seminary is all day I am fairly sure that they're paid since the church frowns on the wives working and the husband wouldn't have much time for a real job and a family after spending the school day teaching at the seminary.

To make this more on topic, almost all the seminary and institute teachers that I've seen have been male. The only female seminary teacher that I knew of was the one for the special ed kids and the only female Institute teachers that I had were over the choir (a very small choir in our case, but there nonetheless). Being male doesn't seem to be a requirement, though I could be wrong, but the gender ratio was certainly off when you compare it to the high school's staff.

[Nityananda-rama dasa]

Murkier

I feel like this argument is going to just become circular, but I'll end with this verse from gelatins:

Quote:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus"

And I stand by that.

Jello aside, that speaks of spiritual equality, not material equality. It says we are equal before God, there are plenty more verses (that I have already brought up) that say materially, or in the eyes of man, men and women are NOT equal, nor should they be treated as such.

[Lucky~9~Lives]

Murkier

I feel like this argument is going to just become circular, but I'll end with this verse from gelatins:

Quote:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus"

And I stand by that.

Then you cannot stand by authoritarian relationships.

[Murkier]

GunsmithKitten

I feel like this argument is going to just become circular, but I'll end with this verse from gelatins:

Quote:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus"

And I stand by that.

[GunsmithKitten]

Murkier

1) The pay that you personally receive is irrelevant. I would also say that we need to understand the differences between the decisions that men and women make in their careers in order to understand the wage gap. (yes, men and women are different!) DO women earn less than men?

Wasn't talking about that. Whole other issue there.

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2) There is a difference between authority in church and authority in society. For example, a woman could be the president of the united states, be a ceo of a company, but also realize that her husband is the head of the household as Jesus is the head of his church. Being the head does not mean that men receive powers that women cannot have.

Except you know, BEING THE HEAD.

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Women have the same spiritual gifts that men do, and are children of God in the same standing

No, being the Head and being a Follower are different levels of standing, that's why they're called different things, sunshine.

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3) You have little understanding of the Trinity if you think that authority means that one is lesser than the other.

If they were equal, they'd have equal functions and responsibilities.

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For example, the Father has authority over the Son, but they are both equally and fully God.

Divinities can get away with this "more power, but the same power" zen bullshit, sister, but mortal man can't.

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The same thing is in the church and in marriage, both parties are equally made in the image and likeness of God, but have different jobs within their covenants with said God.

And some jobs are more powerful and more compensated than others.

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If God has the same relationships in his perfected community, then we should strive to perfect our complimentary relationships within the church and marriage.

Which means one person has to be the leader, and the others the followers. This is not hard, and no amount of religious jiujitsu will change that there's a hiearchy.

[Murkier]

GunsmithKitten

1) The pay that you personally receive is irrelevant. I would also say that we need to understand the differences between the decisions that men and women make in their careers in order to understand the wage gap. (yes, men and women are different!) DO women earn less than men?

2) There is a difference between authority in church and authority in society. For example, a woman could be the president of the united states, be a ceo of a company, but also realize that her husband is the head of the household as Jesus is the head of his church. Being the head does not mean that men receive powers that women cannot have. Women have the same spiritual gifts that men do, and are children of God in the same standing, but just have different purposes within Godly communities in order to help the community as a whole.

3) You have little understanding of the Trinity if you think that authority means that one is lesser than the other. For example, the Father has authority over the Son, but they are both equally and fully God. The same thing is in the church and in marriage, both parties are equally made in the image and likeness of God, but have different jobs within their covenants with said God.
If God has the same relationships in his perfected community, then we should strive to perfect our complimentary relationships within the church and marriage.

[Sneaker Pimps]

Amor Sempiternus

Sneaker Pimps

Amor Sempiternus

Women in the Ancient Roman religion?
Vestal virgins come to mind, for starters. An elite, high-ranking group of priestesses devoted to the worship of the Sacred Fire. Sure, you had to remain a virgin for 30 years, but the privileges were more than worth it. Women were seen of as equally valued to men, even if you would never get, for example, any women fighting in the army. There are cases of women holding their own in a court of law, fighting in the area, holding their own property... Poorer women might have gotten the nastier end of the stick, but even grave markers to freewomen have been found that indicate or at least hint towards a real, deep love between the two sexes rather than 'herp derp, i take advantage now'.

This is so very interesting.

Thanks xd Ancient Rome is my favourite time period of history.

I gather that from al your interesting posts.

[GunsmithKitten]

Dearest Adam

I think this following video shows a beautiful portrayl of women in Islam, despite what is normally associated with them.

Personally, I don't feel there's an issue with what a religion says about gender roles, but what our own cultural background says about it.

So what jewelry related metaphor does one come up with to explain Islam's teaching that there are more women in Hell than men, why a woman's voice is worth only 1/4th of a man's in court, why an Islamic soldier is allowed to force a woman, muslim or not, in an enemy nation during a time of war to be his bride, why a man can divorce a woman simply by saying "I Divorce You" three times, and why men are allowed multiple wives but women are not allowed multiple husbands?

[GunsmithKitten]

Murkier

You misunderstand headship with this sentence. FIrst, you assume that women lack any sort of say within the authority they are under, which is wrong.

Oh I have say in my workplace too. But I still get paid less, and if the boss wants to override it, I can't do a damn thing. I can't override him.

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You might also assume that women cannot be in positions of power over men in society, which is also false.

Well, there was that whole "I shall not suffer a woman to teach a man" thing...

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Your comment on women's pay has nothing to do with theology in the least, especially since businesswomen funded the early church. :/

No, it had more to do with your assumption that being under authority means you're not inferior, when it means EXACTLY that. Otherwise, you'd be sharing the same powers and the same benefits.

[blackheartgirl2]

Dearest Adam

I think this following video shows a beautiful portrayl of women in Islam, despite what is normally associated with them.

Personally, I don't feel there's an issue with what a religion says about gender roles, but what our own cultural background says about it.

Thank you i really do like that video.

[Murkier]

GunsmithKitten

Murkier

Also, being under authority is not demeaning in any way. .

Except for the whole having less power and less pay parts.

You misunderstand headship with this sentence. FIrst, you assume that women lack any sort of say within the authority they are under, which is wrong. You might also assume that women cannot be in positions of power over men in society, which is also false.
Your comment on women's pay has nothing to do with theology in the least, especially since businesswomen funded the early church. :/