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Within the Christianity I follow, women are equal. It's based on my own learnings and the various churches I went to growing up. I don't belong to a particular denomination, it's just an open, general, liberal Christian view.
GunsmithKitten
King INRI
GunsmithKitten
King INRI
Although I support equal rights, I find it kinda amusing to hear people say that there is such thing as equality in genders. Because there are things which can never be equal (that said, it doesn't that everything must be unequal).

In terms of my religion, women have different roles than women, but are equally important. It is not the equality that people are looking for, but it works and it has one common goal. Its kinda vague, but Its hard to go into specifics seeing how broad each role is.


Some animals are more equal than others, eh?

If you're talking Christianity, I'm calling horse-crap right from the get go, since women have two bosses (they are to obey their husbands AND God) as opposed to the male's one boss (who only has to obey God)


Animals are not equal at all either.

As for the rest... I don't think you understand the big picture here. You have it all wrong.


Oh do I? Then explain this big picture and how women don't have two bosses as opposed to man's one. Seems fairly mathematical to me. Someone's lower on the totem pole.


It sounds like you have a personal problem if you believe that someone is lower than the other. Everyone is important, and you can use your "math" all you want to describe something that isn't necessarily true.
King INRI


It sounds like you have a personal problem if you believe that someone is lower than the other. Everyone is important, and you can use your "math" all you want to describe something that isn't necessarily true.


1Cor 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

Eph 5:22-24 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

1CO 11:7-10 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

1CO 14:34-33 Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says. And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
Nityananda-rama dasa


1Cor 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

Eph 5:22-24 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

1CO 11:7-10 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

1CO 14:34-33 Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says. And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.


i have heard those before. One of the many reasons i am not a big fan of Christianity.
rmcdra's avatar
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Nityananda-rama dasa
King INRI


It sounds like you have a personal problem if you believe that someone is lower than the other. Everyone is important, and you can use your "math" all you want to describe something that isn't necessarily true.


1Cor 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

Eph 5:22-24 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

1CO 11:7-10 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

1CO 14:34-33 Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says. And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
Seems that 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 and 14:34-35 might be extrapolations.

John Muddiman, John Barton, ed (2001). The Oxford Bible Commentary. New York: Oxford University Press Inc.. p. 1125. ISBN 978-0-19-875500-5. "It is full of awkward argumentation, so awkward that a few scholars even consider it a later addition to the letter by another hand."

Also those verses contradict 1 Corinthians 16:19

"The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Prisca salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house. "

Hmm... Paul tells women not to preach yet he praises them for running Churches out of their houses?
Couple this with the evidence of most Early Christians being women, it seems very likely that the above mentioned verses were added in at a later date.

Next Ephesians is a deutero-Pauline letter meaning that it was written by someone who was familiar with Pauline thought. Given that it was a later development, it might of been written by someone who didn't want to upset social norms as much as Paul did.
rmcdra
Seems that 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 and 14:34-35 might be extrapolations.

John Muddiman, John Barton, ed (2001). The Oxford Bible Commentary. New York: Oxford University Press Inc.. p. 1125. ISBN 978-0-19-875500-5. "It is full of awkward argumentation, so awkward that a few scholars even consider it a later addition to the letter by another hand."

Also those verses contradict 1 Corinthians 16:19

"The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Prisca salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house. "

Hmm... Paul tells women not to preach yet he praises them for running Churches out of their houses?
Couple this with the evidence of most Early Christians being women, it seems very likely that the above mentioned verses were added in at a later date.

Next Ephesians is a deutero-Pauline letter meaning that it was written by someone who was familiar with Pauline thought. Given that it was a later development, it might of been written by someone who didn't want to upset social norms as much as Paul did.


I post this more to give context on where the kitty is coming from. It is not as if she is fabricating her claims out of bitterness and vitriol.

I will, however, see if I can't get my hands on the Oxford Bible Commentary.

Why can't we have more Christians like you? TT-TT
rmcdra's avatar
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Nityananda-rama dasa
rmcdra
Seems that 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 and 14:34-35 might be extrapolations.

John Muddiman, John Barton, ed (2001). The Oxford Bible Commentary. New York: Oxford University Press Inc.. p. 1125. ISBN 978-0-19-875500-5. "It is full of awkward argumentation, so awkward that a few scholars even consider it a later addition to the letter by another hand."

Also those verses contradict 1 Corinthians 16:19

"The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Prisca salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house. "

Hmm... Paul tells women not to preach yet he praises them for running Churches out of their houses?
Couple this with the evidence of most Early Christians being women, it seems very likely that the above mentioned verses were added in at a later date.

Next Ephesians is a deutero-Pauline letter meaning that it was written by someone who was familiar with Pauline thought. Given that it was a later development, it might of been written by someone who didn't want to upset social norms as much as Paul did.


I post this more to give context on where the kitty is coming from. It is not as if she is fabricating her claims out of bitterness and vitriol.

I will, however, see if I can't get my hands on the Oxford Bible Commentary.

Why can't we have more Christians like you? TT-TT
I hear where she's coming from and familiar with those verses.

page number and ISBN is given.

You flatter me too much. redface
rmcdra's avatar
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Sanguina Cruenta
In Heathenry men and women are treated much the same. Women had pretty decent rights before the Christian conversions. Here is some information about a specific Pagan Viking woman called Sigrið the Proud that may give you an idea about women's rights and how they were viewed by the Norse palaeo-Pagans.

While there are gender-related roles - for example, if a person carries a drinking horn around the circle in a ritual, that person is usually a woman - and things will be slightly different for different groups, there aren't really any rules about how men or women should be treated.


http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/society/text/women.htm
Although our sources of information are limited, it's clear that the roles of men and women in Norse society were quite distinct. Norse society was male dominated. Each gender had a set of expected behaviors, and that line could not be crossed with impunity.
Is this site mistaken?
King INRI


It sounds like you have a personal problem if you believe that someone is lower than the other. Everyone is important, and you can use your "math" all you want to describe something that isn't necessarily true.


Not me, the theology does. When one person has one boss, and someone else has his boss plus him as a boss, that means someone is lower rank and inferior.
rmcdra
Sanguina Cruenta
In Heathenry men and women are treated much the same. Women had pretty decent rights before the Christian conversions. Here is some information about a specific Pagan Viking woman called Sigrið the Proud that may give you an idea about women's rights and how they were viewed by the Norse palaeo-Pagans.

While there are gender-related roles - for example, if a person carries a drinking horn around the circle in a ritual, that person is usually a woman - and things will be slightly different for different groups, there aren't really any rules about how men or women should be treated.


http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/society/text/women.htm
Although our sources of information are limited, it's clear that the roles of men and women in Norse society were quite distinct. Norse society was male dominated. Each gender had a set of expected behaviors, and that line could not be crossed with impunity.
Is this site mistaken?


This website has few citations, and additionally mentions that they don't know much about the subject. I would rather put my trust in VAL. However, though not particularly specific, this site doesn't really contradict anything I mentioned so I'm not sure why you brought it up. Every pre-Christian European society we know about was "male dominated" and many others were (and are) besides - I did not claim otherwise. I said women's rights were "pretty decent" and am curious as to what, comparably, you would consider not decent. I'm hardly suggesting they had the same sort of freedoms and rights we do now. But women had their own property, women could divorce, women had honour and pride in their own right and defended that. An example of comparison, there were more social restrictions on women in ancient Greece (although interestingly, I think in Greek states women had more freedom in religious areas than they did in many others).

From your own link:
Quote:
Most of the Icelandic family sagas are about men and probably were written by men. Women tend to play only minor roles, but those roles are varied. In general, the female characters are strong. The female characters in the sagas are praised for beauty, but more frequently for their wisdom. Many of the character traits regarded as positive in men (such as a sense of honor, courage, and a strong will) are also regarded as positive traits in women.


Gender roles are not surprising - like I said there are particular gender roles even now which a kindred may or may not choose to ignore. Concepts such as ergi make it more clear what was taboo and what wasn't for men; practice magic such as seidhr and you would be considered "unmanly". There are stories about women-warriors and so on but I don't think it was terribly common. Women held the keys of the home and the family money chest and so on. Men didn't take it up the arse or dance like a woman (unless they were a priest of Freyr, apparently); being submissive in one area of life suggested one would be submissive in another. If you're pretty clearly manly as ******** in other areas, maybe there's not so much of an issue. More info on all that.

Genuinely unsure what your point is. What is it I have said that you take issue with? I wonder whether you misinterpreted my mention of "before the Christian conversions" to be some sort of slight against northern European Christian women. I intended only to make it clear I was speaking of palaeo-Pagan Germanic polytheists rather than modern Heathens.
rmcdra's avatar
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Sanguina Cruenta
rmcdra
Sanguina Cruenta
In Heathenry men and women are treated much the same. Women had pretty decent rights before the Christian conversions. Here is some information about a specific Pagan Viking woman called Sigrið the Proud that may give you an idea about women's rights and how they were viewed by the Norse palaeo-Pagans.

While there are gender-related roles - for example, if a person carries a drinking horn around the circle in a ritual, that person is usually a woman - and things will be slightly different for different groups, there aren't really any rules about how men or women should be treated.


http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/society/text/women.htm
Although our sources of information are limited, it's clear that the roles of men and women in Norse society were quite distinct. Norse society was male dominated. Each gender had a set of expected behaviors, and that line could not be crossed with impunity.
Is this site mistaken?


This website has few citations, and additionally mentions that they don't know much about the subject. I would rather put my trust in VAL. However, though not particularly specific, this site doesn't really contradict anything I mentioned so I'm not sure why you brought it up. Every pre-Christian European society we know about was "male dominated" and many others were (and are) besides - I did not claim otherwise. I said women's rights were "pretty decent" and am curious as to what, comparably, you would consider not decent. I'm hardly suggesting they had the same sort of freedoms and rights we do now. But women had their own property, women could divorce, women had honour and pride in their own right and defended that. An example of comparison, there were more social restrictions on women in ancient Greece (although interestingly, I think in Greek states women had more freedom in religious areas than they did in many others).

From your own link:
Quote:
Most of the Icelandic family sagas are about men and probably were written by men. Women tend to play only minor roles, but those roles are varied. In general, the female characters are strong. The female characters in the sagas are praised for beauty, but more frequently for their wisdom. Many of the character traits regarded as positive in men (such as a sense of honor, courage, and a strong will) are also regarded as positive traits in women.


Gender roles are not surprising - like I said there are particular gender roles even now which a kindred may or may not choose to ignore. Concepts such as ergi make it more clear what was taboo and what wasn't for men; practice magic such as seidhr and you would be considered "unmanly". There are stories about women-warriors and so on but I don't think it was terribly common. Women held the keys of the home and the family money chest and so on. Men didn't take it up the arse or dance like a woman (unless they were a priest of Freyr, apparently); being submissive in one area of life suggested one would be submissive in another. If you're pretty clearly manly as ******** in other areas, maybe there's not so much of an issue. More info on all that.

Genuinely unsure what your point is. What is it I have said that you take issue with? I wonder whether you misinterpreted my mention of "before the Christian conversions" to be some sort of slight against northern European Christian women. I intended only to make it clear I was speaking of palaeo-Pagan Germanic polytheists rather than modern Heathens.
I misread what you had written. nvm.
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GunsmithKitten
King INRI


It sounds like you have a personal problem if you believe that someone is lower than the other. Everyone is important, and you can use your "math" all you want to describe something that isn't necessarily true.


Not me, the theology does. When one person has one boss, and someone else has his boss plus him as a boss, that means someone is lower rank and inferior.


I'm going to point out that King INRI is a Mormon and that as Mormons strictly use a version of the KJV that contains Mormon commentary, footnotes and indexes in their church they don't use the version of the Bible with the Oxford commentary in it as scripture that rmcdra provided. The fact that Mormons don't give women the priesthood and the priesthood is required to hold the most powerful leadership roles just goes to show you that women take a supporting or subordinate role in the church. Just compare the number of male only positions and what the position entails to the number of female only positions and what those positions entail and it becomes blatantly obvious that men hold more power in the so called LDS church than the women do. Seriously, can the all female Relief Society presidency excommunicate people? No. Can the all male Bishopric excommunicate people? Yes, as long as the person in question doesn't hold the Melchizedek priesthood. Melchizedek priesthood can be excommunicated by the all male Stake Presidency. I could go on with this feminist critic of the Mormon church for a while, but there isn't much point since King INRI isn't going to accept this math as he likes to call it.
Sanguina Cruenta

rmcdra


Here's my paper anyway. I really hope it will clarify some things. :/


Women and Heathenry

Despite immense growth and development in the last 50 years, many Heathen Reconstructionist groups still grapple with perceptions of machismo and criticism from other contemporary pagans for being unsympathetic towards women’s spirituality. However much has changed since the early revival movements of the 1970s, and modern Heathen kindreds attract a growing number of female participants. As a Reconstructionist group, Heathenry is primarily concerned with recreating the spiritual experience of pre-Christian northern Europeans. (Horrell) By analyzing the standing of women in pre-Christian Europe, the status and roles of practicing heathen women today, the various female divinities of heathenry, and the value systems many kindreds emulate; it is possible to reflect upon Heathenry’s growing appeal to modern women.
Before the Judeo-Christian invasions of northern Europe in 10ce, women in ‘Elder Heathen’ communities of what now comprise the Germanic and Scandinavian countries enjoyed a greater sense of egalitarianism than many of their contemporaries in the ancient societies of the Middle East or the Mediterranean. (Jochens) Women were not taught they were inferior to men and had control over their own property, dowries, and matters of sexuality. Wives were given all the family’s wages as well as the keys to the house and had complete authority over all domestic matters. Women uninterested in housewifery were not looked down upon for pursuing other lifestyles as wise women, prophetesses, healers, midwives, or even warriors. (Arnold) In these societies, females were understood to have a provident and sacred role, and their advice was sought in all matters of life. (Blain) Because of this, Reconstructionist Heathens seeking to abolish any post-Christian influence have no reservations for the roles of women in modern kindreds. To this day the practices of frith weaving, spay working and rune reading are largely associated with feminine energy and practiced by primarily by women priestesses called ‘Gythia,’ who preside over heathen ritual and communities and are supposed to have a stronger connection with certain deities. Interestingly, while most practitioners of these forms of divination are female; the practice is most closely associated with the ‘all-father’ Odin, the male leader in the pantheon of Norse gods and goddesses. This is because in Heathen lore, Odin seeks out the knowledge of these forms of magic and then passes the knowledge on as a gift to both humankind and his handmaidens, the Valkyries. The Valkyries, including the popular Vanir goddess Freyja, are given first choice over the souls of the battle slain and are said to use their frith weaving to determine who dies on the battlefield. (Horrell) The emphasis on female power over divination continues with the Norns, triplets who maintain the ‘Well of Wyrd’ at the base of the world. Wyrd is best described in English as ‘karma’ or ‘fate,’ although emphasis is placed on the possibility of change. These practices are encouraging to women, because they give them a sense of empowerment and the capability of being a positive catalyst for change. In both instances, women are ultimately ‘in control’ of the situation.
Certainly, these are not the only potent female figures. Many women who take an interest in paganism select specific goddesses which resonate strongly with them to revere. The Heathen pantheon offers a different spin on the feminine conceptualization of the divine, perhaps offering a counter to the ‘marianismo’ mentality which teaches passivity, purity and motherhood as the ultimate feminine strengths. Stephen McNallen, who pioneered the first Asatru reconstruction groups in the United States, counters perceptions of Freyja as a simple representation of ‘love and beauty:’
“Lest we fall into the snare of thinking of The Lady of the Vanir in the somewhat predictable female roles of sex goddess or promoter of the perpetual pregnancy, we must remember her fiercer side…when we recall that she chooses half of the battle-slain, when we reflect on her links to the Valkyries and consider her many parallels with Odin, we are lead to conclude that her marital abilities must be formidable…her message is simple, that women too can be strong, assertive, and full of fight. As Frey tells men that they can be lovers and fighters, Freyja says the same thing to women.” (Adler)
Generally within heathenry, traits of ‘marianismo’ such as compliancy, vulnerability, docility, and unassertiveness are seen as unattractive virtues to possess whether the person be male or female. (Horrell) The word ‘marianismo’ in itself is a reference to the Virgin Mary. This suggests that the assigning of gender onto a specific set of virtues is a product of Judeo-Christian influences. For many women, Heathenry may be appealing for the exactly the same reason it has been criticized- because there’s nothing stopping women from participating in machismo and ‘masculine’ activities themselves. (McNallen) There are no special reservations or conditions set aside to dictate that a woman’s virtues be different than another person’s- while it may be true that many Heathens embrace a certain ‘warrior’s mentality,’ nowhere does it say that women are excluded from this should they choose. Perhaps the best instance of this is with the Jotunn (or giant) turned-goddess Skadi, who intimidates the Aesir into bending to her, will. Skadi is the personification of mountains, winter, revenge, justice, and independence; modern women interested in feminine spirituality may resonate with this goddess because of her emphasis on self-reliance and strength.
This is not to say that the archetypical image of the Mother doesn’t present within Heathenry. Role sharing is very common within the pantheon and several deities embody this tradition. (Matrons and…) Foremost is Frigg, ‘mother of the gods.’ Immensely wise, Frigg can see the fate of all mankind and is equal in cunning and status to her husband, Odin. She is the patron of women, childbirth, comforting the elderly, domestic affairs, weaving and frith. Women in Elder Heathen communities made a large portion of the income for their families by spinning yarn to weave fabrics, a testament to their economic power. (Frigg) The spindle became a symbol of feminine wisdom, virtue, magic, and industry; evidenced by both Frigg and the Norns ability to ‘weave’ reality. Many heathen women may have used Frigg’s rune ‘berkana’ as a sort of magical amulet to protect their houses and children. Others may have called upon the ‘Disir,’ a type of female spirit resembling a guardian angel to protect their homes or loved ones. There is significant evidence of matron worship among the Elder Heathen, including over 1000 alters and votive stones found across northern Europe. (Matrons and…) Despite being less popular in modern times than their fiercer peers, these deities and mythical ancestors were arguably extremely important to a large number of Elder Heathens and reflect a common theme of reverence for ancestry which continues today. In contemporary Heathenry, mothers are honored annually on the first day of Yule. This short praise is an example of this respect:
“As we encourage the return of Sunna (the feminine aspect of the Sun) we honor the feminine all around us. Honor the Idises, Asynjor, all Mothers, Great Grandmothers and your feminine ancestors. Raise a horn to the glorious women who give birth to us and to the feminine spirits that support us. Give this time in honor to all Mothering aspects.” (Elmersson)
Interestingly, there is no identifiable celebration for fathers.
While this is just a small sampling of the many aspects of Heathenry which may appeal to modern women, inarguably the percentage of women in Heathenry continues to grow. While the absence of a universal leader or kindred makes it difficult to come up with an exact figure; Godi and writer for the Ring of Troth estimates a 20% increase in female participants since 1992. Perhaps with further increase, Heathenry can mediate outside criticism as well as further cultivate the feminine portion of the divine which was so crucial to the Elder Heathen.



Works Cited.

Women in Asatru. <http://www.oocities.org/athens/delphi/4452/AsaWomen.htm>
Asatru: the Native Religion of the European People<http://www.asatru.ca/img/Asatru - The Native Religion-b.pdf>
Norse Heathenism<http://www.religioustolerance.org/asatru.htm>
The Standing of Heathen Women< http://www.goheathen.org/wordpress/?p=18>
Synder, Steffanie. Voices of Modern American Asatru Women.
Asatru and Women < http://asatruringfrankfurt.de/en/1articles/asatruandwomen.html>
Women in Germanic Heathenry <http://swainblog.englatheod.org/?p=22>
Irminsul Aettir. < http://www.irminsul.org/>
Asatru Folk Assembly. < http://www.runestone.org/>
Reconstructionism in Modern Heathenism. < http://odroerirjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Odroerir-Issue-1.pdf#page=11>
Blain, Jenny. Representing Spirit- Heathenry, New Indigenes and the Imaged Past.
Lewis, James. Magical Religion and modern Witchcraft (chapter 9: Asatru)
Jochens, Jenny. Women in Old Norse Society.
Schrader, Richard J. God’s Handiwork- Images of Women in Early Germanic Literature.
Arnold, Bettina. Gender and the Archeology of Death: The Position of Iron Age Scandinavian Women.
Horrell, Thad. Lecture, Interview.
Matrons and the Disir: Heathen Tribal Mothers. < http://www.friggasweb.org/matrons.html>
Frigg. < http://www.thorshof.org/frigg.htm>
Elmersson, Vaygar Yngvi. 12 Days of Yule.
Alder, Margot. Drawing Down the Moon.
rmcdra's avatar
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Homicidal Orange
Sanguina Cruenta

rmcdra


Here's my paper anyway. I really hope it will clarify some things. :/


Women and Heathenry

Despite immense growth and development in the last 50 years, many Heathen Reconstructionist groups still grapple with perceptions of machismo and criticism from other contemporary pagans for being unsympathetic towards women’s spirituality. However much has changed since the early revival movements of the 1970s, and modern Heathen kindreds attract a growing number of female participants. As a Reconstructionist group, Heathenry is primarily concerned with recreating the spiritual experience of pre-Christian northern Europeans. (Horrell) By analyzing the standing of women in pre-Christian Europe, the status and roles of practicing heathen women today, the various female divinities of heathenry, and the value systems many kindreds emulate; it is possible to reflect upon Heathenry’s growing appeal to modern women.
Before the Judeo-Christian invasions of northern Europe in 10ce, women in ‘Elder Heathen’ communities of what now comprise the Germanic and Scandinavian countries enjoyed a greater sense of egalitarianism than many of their contemporaries in the ancient societies of the Middle East or the Mediterranean. (Jochens) Women were not taught they were inferior to men and had control over their own property, dowries, and matters of sexuality. Wives were given all the family’s wages as well as the keys to the house and had complete authority over all domestic matters. Women uninterested in housewifery were not looked down upon for pursuing other lifestyles as wise women, prophetesses, healers, midwives, or even warriors. (Arnold) In these societies, females were understood to have a provident and sacred role, and their advice was sought in all matters of life. (Blain) Because of this, Reconstructionist Heathens seeking to abolish any post-Christian influence have no reservations for the roles of women in modern kindreds. To this day the practices of frith weaving, spay working and rune reading are largely associated with feminine energy and practiced by primarily by women priestesses called ‘Gythia,’ who preside over heathen ritual and communities and are supposed to have a stronger connection with certain deities. Interestingly, while most practitioners of these forms of divination are female; the practice is most closely associated with the ‘all-father’ Odin, the male leader in the pantheon of Norse gods and goddesses. This is because in Heathen lore, Odin seeks out the knowledge of these forms of magic and then passes the knowledge on as a gift to both humankind and his handmaidens, the Valkyries. The Valkyries, including the popular Vanir goddess Freyja, are given first choice over the souls of the battle slain and are said to use their frith weaving to determine who dies on the battlefield. (Horrell) The emphasis on female power over divination continues with the Norns, triplets who maintain the ‘Well of Wyrd’ at the base of the world. Wyrd is best described in English as ‘karma’ or ‘fate,’ although emphasis is placed on the possibility of change. These practices are encouraging to women, because they give them a sense of empowerment and the capability of being a positive catalyst for change. In both instances, women are ultimately ‘in control’ of the situation.
Certainly, these are not the only potent female figures. Many women who take an interest in paganism select specific goddesses which resonate strongly with them to revere. The Heathen pantheon offers a different spin on the feminine conceptualization of the divine, perhaps offering a counter to the ‘marianismo’ mentality which teaches passivity, purity and motherhood as the ultimate feminine strengths. Stephen McNallen, who pioneered the first Asatru reconstruction groups in the United States, counters perceptions of Freyja as a simple representation of ‘love and beauty:’
“Lest we fall into the snare of thinking of The Lady of the Vanir in the somewhat predictable female roles of sex goddess or promoter of the perpetual pregnancy, we must remember her fiercer side…when we recall that she chooses half of the battle-slain, when we reflect on her links to the Valkyries and consider her many parallels with Odin, we are lead to conclude that her marital abilities must be formidable…her message is simple, that women too can be strong, assertive, and full of fight. As Frey tells men that they can be lovers and fighters, Freyja says the same thing to women.” (Adler)
Generally within heathenry, traits of ‘marianismo’ such as compliancy, vulnerability, docility, and unassertiveness are seen as unattractive virtues to possess whether the person be male or female. (Horrell) The word ‘marianismo’ in itself is a reference to the Virgin Mary. This suggests that the assigning of gender onto a specific set of virtues is a product of Judeo-Christian influences. For many women, Heathenry may be appealing for the exactly the same reason it has been criticized- because there’s nothing stopping women from participating in machismo and ‘masculine’ activities themselves. (McNallen) There are no special reservations or conditions set aside to dictate that a woman’s virtues be different than another person’s- while it may be true that many Heathens embrace a certain ‘warrior’s mentality,’ nowhere does it say that women are excluded from this should they choose. Perhaps the best instance of this is with the Jotunn (or giant) turned-goddess Skadi, who intimidates the Aesir into bending to her, will. Skadi is the personification of mountains, winter, revenge, justice, and independence; modern women interested in feminine spirituality may resonate with this goddess because of her emphasis on self-reliance and strength.
This is not to say that the archetypical image of the Mother doesn’t present within Heathenry. Role sharing is very common within the pantheon and several deities embody this tradition. (Matrons and…) Foremost is Frigg, ‘mother of the gods.’ Immensely wise, Frigg can see the fate of all mankind and is equal in cunning and status to her husband, Odin. She is the patron of women, childbirth, comforting the elderly, domestic affairs, weaving and frith. Women in Elder Heathen communities made a large portion of the income for their families by spinning yarn to weave fabrics, a testament to their economic power. (Frigg) The spindle became a symbol of feminine wisdom, virtue, magic, and industry; evidenced by both Frigg and the Norns ability to ‘weave’ reality. Many heathen women may have used Frigg’s rune ‘berkana’ as a sort of magical amulet to protect their houses and children. Others may have called upon the ‘Disir,’ a type of female spirit resembling a guardian angel to protect their homes or loved ones. There is significant evidence of matron worship among the Elder Heathen, including over 1000 alters and votive stones found across northern Europe. (Matrons and…) Despite being less popular in modern times than their fiercer peers, these deities and mythical ancestors were arguably extremely important to a large number of Elder Heathens and reflect a common theme of reverence for ancestry which continues today. In contemporary Heathenry, mothers are honored annually on the first day of Yule. This short praise is an example of this respect:
“As we encourage the return of Sunna (the feminine aspect of the Sun) we honor the feminine all around us. Honor the Idises, Asynjor, all Mothers, Great Grandmothers and your feminine ancestors. Raise a horn to the glorious women who give birth to us and to the feminine spirits that support us. Give this time in honor to all Mothering aspects.” (Elmersson)
Interestingly, there is no identifiable celebration for fathers.
While this is just a small sampling of the many aspects of Heathenry which may appeal to modern women, inarguably the percentage of women in Heathenry continues to grow. While the absence of a universal leader or kindred makes it difficult to come up with an exact figure; Godi and writer for the Ring of Troth estimates a 20% increase in female participants since 1992. Perhaps with further increase, Heathenry can mediate outside criticism as well as further cultivate the feminine portion of the divine which was so crucial to the Elder Heathen.



Works Cited.

Women in Asatru. <http://www.oocities.org/athens/delphi/4452/AsaWomen.htm>
Asatru: the Native Religion of the European People<http://www.asatru.ca/img/Asatru - The Native Religion-b.pdf>
Norse Heathenism<http://www.religioustolerance.org/asatru.htm>
The Standing of Heathen Women< http://www.goheathen.org/wordpress/?p=18>
Synder, Steffanie. Voices of Modern American Asatru Women.
Asatru and Women < http://asatruringfrankfurt.de/en/1articles/asatruandwomen.html>
Women in Germanic Heathenry <http://swainblog.englatheod.org/?p=22>
Irminsul Aettir. < http://www.irminsul.org/>
Asatru Folk Assembly. < http://www.runestone.org/>
Reconstructionism in Modern Heathenism. < http://odroerirjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Odroerir-Issue-1.pdf#page=11>
Blain, Jenny. Representing Spirit- Heathenry, New Indigenes and the Imaged Past.
Lewis, James. Magical Religion and modern Witchcraft (chapter 9: Asatru)
Jochens, Jenny. Women in Old Norse Society.
Schrader, Richard J. God’s Handiwork- Images of Women in Early Germanic Literature.
Arnold, Bettina. Gender and the Archeology of Death: The Position of Iron Age Scandinavian Women.
Horrell, Thad. Lecture, Interview.
Matrons and the Disir: Heathen Tribal Mothers. < http://www.friggasweb.org/matrons.html>
Frigg. < http://www.thorshof.org/frigg.htm>
Elmersson, Vaygar Yngvi. 12 Days of Yule.
Alder, Margot. Drawing Down the Moon.
Okay not seeing what it clarifies since I admitted to misreading Sans's post but interesting read.
Cresneta
GunsmithKitten
King INRI


It sounds like you have a personal problem if you believe that someone is lower than the other. Everyone is important, and you can use your "math" all you want to describe something that isn't necessarily true.


Not me, the theology does. When one person has one boss, and someone else has his boss plus him as a boss, that means someone is lower rank and inferior.


I'm going to point out that King INRI is a Mormon and that as Mormons strictly use a version of the KJV that contains Mormon commentary, footnotes and indexes in their church they don't use the version of the Bible with the Oxford commentary in it as scripture that rmcdra provided. The fact that Mormons don't give women the priesthood and the priesthood is required to hold the most powerful leadership roles just goes to show you that women take a supporting or subordinate role in the church. Just compare the number of male only positions and what the position entails to the number of female only positions and what those positions entail and it becomes blatantly obvious that men hold more power in the so called LDS church than the women do. Seriously, can the all female Relief Society presidency excommunicate people? No. Can the all male Bishopric excommunicate people? Yes, as long as the person in question doesn't hold the Melchizedek priesthood. Melchizedek priesthood can be excommunicated by the all male Stake Presidency. I could go on with this feminist critic of the Mormon church for a while, but there isn't much point since King INRI isn't going to accept this math as he likes to call it.


Ahh. I guess in this situation its appropriate to call oneself "Mormon" because its typically a lot easier to criticize using such names.

However, I will make my stance that women are not equal to men. We are all different, and its insulting to compare women to men to such standards. I am a male, and there are things I'll never be able to do, no matter how much you want to argue. We are different, and God has use for everyone. Although you think it is morally incorrect that women cannot hold the priesthood... I can do nothing to change that. Each role is important, and significant, and you need not worry especially if you are not LDS.

Also, I am far from being perfect. You may criticize me personally or my religion, but I hold no offense to you as you try to misunderstand concepts which have little importance to the big picture.

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