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CuAnnan's avatar

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vwytche
1. I DID provide citation. Open your eyes and you'll see that half my post is links.

Yes. And I followed those links, and I saw places where the OP had transparently quoted the site, citing each quote.
There is, however, a great deal of information that did not come from that site.
1.1, 2.1, 3 onwards. All of that was not from wicca for the rest of us.

vwytche
The issue was that The OP was disrespectful enough to use the work of a solitary

Actually, most of the stuff she cited from that site was Gardner.

vwytche
malign her

Another blatant lie. At no point did Triste malign solitary eclectic neopagans, she just said they're not Wiccans.

vwytche
She present tne info as accurate

Citation required.

vwytche
I fail to see any proof or citation of your claim that I am Lying

See point 1. The list of points that I reference from the OP that do not come from WFTROU.

vwytche
It does beg the question however, if the truth of the matter is sooooo obvious, why did it take three years of discussion to arrive at?

Signal to noise ratio.
Determining who is and is not an authority on Wicca is difficult and time consuming.
At the time, there were no lineaged Wiccans in ED M&R. I was the closest, having made a significant academic study of it, and over the course of the following three years, prepared for first degree initiation (twice, under two different covens).

vwytche
What to call one's religion and one's self as a member of it IS a religious choice, dear heart.

1) Don't call me pet names, false familiarity is offensive.
2) Yes, it is your choice to call yourself a member of a religion you don't belong to. It would, likewise, be my choice to call myself a US Supreme Court Judge. Both choices would be incorrect.

vwytche
Now, why don't you take yourself and your big nose and do all jump in the bloody loch.

Because it's winter, and I'd rather not travel across the sea to Scotland just to jump in their cold water.

vwytche
your unsoliciated opinion

1) I was here first. While I realise that's incredibly petulant a response, I don't take kindly to your tone, so I thought I'd try to communicate on your level.
2) This is ED M&R. As long as I adhere to forum rules, my opinion is solicited by my membership of the forums.
vwytche's avatar

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CuAnnan
vwytche
1. I DID provide citation. Open your eyes and you'll see that half my post is links.

Yes. And I followed those links, and I saw places where the OP had transparently quoted the site, citing each quote.
There is, however, a great deal of information that did not come from that site.
1.1, 2.1, 3 onwards. All of that was not from wicca for the rest of us.

vwytche
The issue was that The OP was disrespectful enough to use the work of a solitary

Actually, most of the stuff she cited from that site was Gardner.

vwytche
malign her

Another blatant lie. At no point did Triste malign solitary eclectic neopagans, she just said they're not Wiccans.

vwytche
She present tne info as accurate

Citation required.

vwytche
I fail to see any proof or citation of your claim that I am Lying

See point 1. The list of points that I reference from the OP that do not come from WFTROU.

vwytche
It does beg the question however, if the truth of the matter is sooooo obvious, why did it take three years of discussion to arrive at?

Signal to noise ratio.
Determining who is and is not an authority on Wicca is difficult and time consuming.
At the time, there were no lineaged Wiccans in ED M&R. I was the closest, having made a significant academic study of it, and over the course of the following three years, prepared for first degree initiation (twice, under two different covens).

vwytche
What to call one's religion and one's self as a member of it IS a religious choice, dear heart.

1) Don't call me pet names, false familiarity is offensive.
2) Yes, it is your choice to call yourself a member of a religion you don't belong to. It would, likewise, be my choice to call myself a US Supreme Court Judge. Both choices would be incorrect.

vwytche
Now, why don't you take yourself and your big nose and do all jump in the bloody loch.

Because it's winter, and I'd rather not travel across the sea to Scotland just to jump in their cold water.

vwytche
your unsoliciated opinion

1) I was here first. While I realise that's incredibly petulant a response, I don't take kindly to your tone, so I thought I'd try to communicate on your level.
2) This is ED M&R. As long as I adhere to forum rules, my opinion is solicited by my membership of the forums.


LOL, Oh you ARE just too much. You take offense at dear heart? Well, sweety luv, it's a whole hell of a lot less offensive than calling someone a liar and assuming the right to dictate their personal choices. But on to the matter at hand.

I will grant you that it is difficult if not impossable to prove anything about the source of the original citations as all it's links are dead. Isn't it interesting though, that all of them attempt to lead to wiccatimerift, which is Wicca For The Rest Of Us' old address?

And I do hope you're not trying impress me with your pool of knowledge. Prepared for first level initiation twice, pu-leez. In other words you had access to what the BTW call outer sourt knowledge that is available to anyone that has done the tiniest bit of research. If anything about that tale suggest anything about your intelect it's that you had the brains to back out before the initiation.

And do try to get over your ego problems. It's a bit much to think that anyone that joins a forum that you are a member of is interested in YOUR opinion specifically. I'm pretty sure that there are quite a few members here that couldn't care less about your opinion. I know for a rock solid fact that there is one. But you try to struggle on with your life in spite of the knowledge that somewhere in the world some one is doing something of which you don't approve. And I wish you a lot of good luck in growing up enough to learn that the world does not exsist to please you.

OH, I'm STILL waiting for your citations. Shall I assume that like giving offense and expressing your opinion that requesting citations is YOUR exclusive province?
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vwytche
You take offense at dear heart?

No, I don't take offense. Your behaviour is offensive. That is a statement on your behaviour.
I don't allow things to offend me. Occasionally, I allow people to offend me, but never things.

vwytche
it's a whole hell of a lot less offensive than calling someone a liar

I have demonstrated your lies.
Liars are those who tell lies.

vwytche
assuming the right to dictate their personal choices.

No, I'm telling you you can choose to call yourself Wiccan, but that you're incorrect.
I used to say things like "your religion, no matter how valid it may be, is not Wicca", but people like you don't listen to reason. Reason is bad. Reason is the devil. Reason is to be demonised.
People like you never have a reasonable argument beyond "I want to call myself Wiccan, so I will, and ******** you for telling me I'm a child killing monster" ignoring the fact that we never claim you kill children.
That people like you get so ******** uppity when we say "you're not Wiccan" is really telling.

Surely if you were confident in your personal realisation of the Gods, the title wouldn't matter.
Surely if you were faithful, when presented with the origins of the word Wicca and the stark realisation that your religion bears less resemblance to actual Wicca than it does to Judaism, you'd stop calling yourself Wiccan because the title shouldn't matter if the faith is real?

But you don't. You cling to the title. Because the title is important, for some reason.

vwytche
In other words you had access to what the BTW call outer sourt knowledge that is available to anyone that has done the tiniest bit of research.

Well, I can't really comment on what did happen in the coven, because that would be a mite close to oathbreaking for my tastes.

vwytche
you had the brains to back out before the initiation.

Yes, but only because of the situation itself.

vwytche
It's a bit much to think that anyone that joins a forum that you are a member of is interested in YOUR opinion specifically.

I don't offer opinions on Wicca. It might get me in trouble if I did.
I offer the unarguable facts, based on reason.

vwytche
OH, I'm STILL waiting for your citations.

I provided them.
Check the numbers.
Read the initial post.
Those numbers did not come from your site.
Since those numbers did not come from your site, you were lying when you said Triste C/P'd it.
Furthermore, you were lying when you said she maligned solitary eclectic neopagans.

vwytche
Shall I assume that like giving offense and expressing your opinion that requesting citations is YOUR exclusive province?

Actually, until such a time as you do so, yes.
Otherwise you are guilty of et tu quoque, which is yet again another logical fallacy.
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CuAnnan
vwytche
You take offense at dear heart?

No, I don't take offense. Your behaviour is offensive. That is a statement on your behaviour.
I don't allow things to offend me. Occasionally, I allow people to offend me, but never things.

vwytche
it's a whole hell of a lot less offensive than calling someone a liar

I have demonstrated your lies.
Liars are those who tell lies.

vwytche
assuming the right to dictate their personal choices.

No, I'm telling you you can choose to call yourself Wiccan, but that you're incorrect.
I used to say things like "your religion, no matter how valid it may be, is not Wicca", but people like you don't listen to reason. Reason is bad. Reason is the devil. Reason is to be demonised.
People like you never have a reasonable argument beyond "I want to call myself Wiccan, so I will, and ******** you for telling me I'm a child killing monster" ignoring the fact that we never claim you kill children.
That people like you get so ******** uppity when we say "you're not Wiccan" is really telling.

Surely if you were confident in your personal realisation of the Gods, the title wouldn't matter.
Surely if you were faithful, when presented with the origins of the word Wicca and the stark realisation that your religion bears less resemblance to actual Wicca than it does to Judaism, you'd stop calling yourself Wiccan because the title shouldn't matter if the faith is real?

But you don't. You cling to the title. Because the title is important, for some reason.

vwytche
In other words you had access to what the BTW call outer sourt knowledge that is available to anyone that has done the tiniest bit of research.

Well, I can't really comment on what did happen in the coven, because that would be a mite close to oathbreaking for my tastes.

vwytche
you had the brains to back out before the initiation.

Yes, but only because of the situation itself.

vwytche
It's a bit much to think that anyone that joins a forum that you are a member of is interested in YOUR opinion specifically.

I don't offer opinions on Wicca. It might get me in trouble if I did.
I offer the unarguable facts, based on reason.

vwytche
OH, I'm STILL waiting for your citations.

I provided them.
Check the numbers.
Read the initial post.
Those numbers did not come from your site.
Since those numbers did not come from your site, you were lying when you said Triste C/P'd it.
Furthermore, you were lying when you said she maligned solitary eclectic neopagans.

vwytche
Shall I assume that like giving offense and expressing your opinion that requesting citations is YOUR exclusive province?

Actually, until such a time as you do so, yes.
Otherwise you are guilty of et tu quoque, which is yet again another logical fallacy.


rofl My, you ARE quite entertaining. There was a time that it would have annoyed me how full of yourelf you are, but I have learned not to take trivial things so seriously since then.

Let me just hit the gighlights here, as you are rapidly becoming less and less worthy of the priveledage of my time and attention.

1. You call my behavior offensive and then claim not to be a offended. Can you say contradiction, boys and girls? I knew you could.

2. You have not shown me to be a liar. Making reference back to the OP does not constitute citing anything except the OP, which as the document in question can hardly be used to cite itself. Even if were to provide links to these supposed other sources of the OP, which I have concluded you have no intention of doing, it would provr nothing. As I have already pointed out they are dead, but do all attempt to go to WFTROS' old address, implying that to be to original source site. And even IF you were to provide and prove all the alledged sources, AND explain the paradox of the links attempting to go, not to them, but WFTROU, it STILL would not prove willful disception on my part. It would prove nothing more than an understandable error. But, you were just chomping at the bit for an excuse to start calling nasty names and discredit my words, weren't you?

(This is just an assumption on my part, but I'm guessing your motive for that is if you don't villifiy me someone might listen to me and make up their own mind, and you lack the maturity to deal with that possablility.)

3. Do try not to confuse me with others you have conversed with in the past. I have accused you of calling me nothing but a liar, which you did. Whatever reaction your more learned then thou behavior has triggered in the past was from those people at those times. Don't attempt to put it on me as a way of justifying your behavior.

4. If YOU were confident in YOUR belief it wouldn't matter to you what I call myself. You do realize you're projecting, right?

5. OH,THE OATHBOUND CARD! LOVE IT! rofl Yeah, like everybody doesn't know that "no comment" means "nail on the head". You tried to paint up your experience as something so very impressive, counting on MY lack of knowledge and experience to cover your bluff. And when I calledd you on it you attempt to save the bluff by calling oathbound. Just admit that you put your foot in your mouth there and move on. You'll make yourself look like less of a fool.

6. Your facts are incredably arguable. You have come to your own conclusions, based on what ever evidence you have been exposed to, as have I. Personally, I don't understnd it. Having done the research, and read through scores of document, discussing the matter at length with a wide array of people and dedicating mus=ch time in both parayer and continplation on it, I truly can not understand how anyone could buy that GG=Wicca garbage. The evidence is flimsy at best, and has more holes in it than a seive. Only someone that had already made up their mind and determined not change it could be taken in by that load of bull. In fact, a very good case can be made for Gardnerism not even being Wicca at all, considering that the Gardnerists attempted to claim the word retroactively AFTER it was being widely used by the solitary community.

I expect you'll have some more insults and profanities to throw at me now. They DO work so much better than evidence and logical arguments, don't they?
awesome thread
Ohhmaru-Concoo-Tanoweichi's avatar

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Got to love religious fights lol. Don't troll me i simply find it amusing how people argu other the small stuff in every threat about any religion.

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Glory to the new fallen king
l Jager l's avatar

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Loved it. But, since I'm not a priest, what then would I be?

*Edit. Believing in Lord/Lady ect.

*Edit. Dont know about that Kabalisim stuff though. User Image
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iAmbur
Loved it. But, since I'm not a priest, what then would I be?

*Edit. Believing in Lord/Lady ect.

*Edit. Dont know about that Kabalisim stuff though. User Image


Non-clergy are called laypeople (although there are no laypeople in Wicca). 3nodding

Edit: I feel like I didn't answer your question properly.

If you believe in two deities, you'd be a ditheist; which particular deities you believe in may be different from the deities of Wicca. You'd have to be initiated to really know one way or the other.
iAmbur
Loved it. But, since I'm not a priest, what then would I be?

*Edit. Believing in Lord/Lady ect.

*Edit. Dont know about that Kabalisim stuff though. User Image


If you are looking to find a proper coven and earn initiation then you are a Seeker. If you are happy with what you do you could just use pagan or eclectic pagan. If you have specific deities that you work with you may want to find out what the culture they come from called the religion or the followers of that religion.

In the ancient world many religions did not have names. If you worshiped Isis you were a follower of Isis.
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I found this today in a book I'm reviewing for my tumblr, basically this book is so full of horseshit that it's really not worth taking seriously. However, I thought it was amusing a quote, and I'd like some people to take a moment (iffin to brighten your day) to explain to me exactly what the hell this person is trying to talk about here.

Chapter 5, Becoming a Witch, p. 95; The Real Witches' Handbook by Kate West, sentence one and two.

Quote:
‘Thus far I have only talked about Witches in general, but like many other belief systems there are many kinds of Witch. The most commonly mentioned are Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Hereditary, Traditional, Solitary and Hedgewitch. As you will see below, these categories are not necessarily exclusive; one can be Gardnerian Hereditary or Traditional Solitary Hedgewitch, or almost any other combination.”


I just ... I just need someone to explain that to me. Because I can't process this s**t.
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DragonicFlames
I found this today in a book I'm reviewing for my tumblr, basically this book is so full of horseshit that it's really not worth taking seriously. However, I thought it was amusing a quote, and I'd like some people to take a moment (iffin to brighten your day) to explain to me exactly what the hell this person is trying to talk about here.

Chapter 5, Becoming a Witch, p. 95; The Real Witches' Handbook by Kate West, sentence one and two.

Quote:
‘Thus far I have only talked about Witches in general, but like many other belief systems there are many kinds of Witch. The most commonly mentioned are Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Hereditary, Traditional, Solitary and Hedgewitch. As you will see below, these categories are not necessarily exclusive; one can be Gardnerian Hereditary or Traditional Solitary Hedgewitch, or almost any other combination.”


I just ... I just need someone to explain that to me. Because I can't process this s**t.
You could be a witch that practices a family tradition and then you get initiated into Wicca seperatly (thats the only hereditary Wiccan I can think of). Traditional solitary Hedge witch actually describes a lot of what the "Traditional witchcraft" authors write about.

So yes its true that you can be a practioner of different types of religious witchcraft.
DragonicFlames's avatar

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Loona Wynd
DragonicFlames
I found this today in a book I'm reviewing for my tumblr, basically this book is so full of horseshit that it's really not worth taking seriously. However, I thought it was amusing a quote, and I'd like some people to take a moment (iffin to brighten your day) to explain to me exactly what the hell this person is trying to talk about here.

Chapter 5, Becoming a Witch, p. 95; The Real Witches' Handbook by Kate West, sentence one and two.

Quote:
‘Thus far I have only talked about Witches in general, but like many other belief systems there are many kinds of Witch. The most commonly mentioned are Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Hereditary, Traditional, Solitary and Hedgewitch. As you will see below, these categories are not necessarily exclusive; one can be Gardnerian Hereditary or Traditional Solitary Hedgewitch, or almost any other combination.”


I just ... I just need someone to explain that to me. Because I can't process this s**t.
You could be a witch that practices a family tradition and then you get initiated into Wicca seperatly (thats the only hereditary Wiccan I can think of). Traditional solitary Hedge witch actually describes a lot of what the "Traditional witchcraft" authors write about.

So yes its true that you can be a practioner of different types of religious witchcraft.


Except that Gardnerian Hereditary would require incestous initiation lineages, like the Frosts.

Which last I checked was frowned upon. :3
CuAnnan
vwytche
The whole OP of this thread is sourced from this site:

Please cite the pages that the OP comes from.
The OP, as it is, is the culmination of about three year's discussion on the forums about five years ago.

vwytche
Which is owned, written and run by a solitary eclectic Wicca, as can be seen here

Appeal to irrelevant authority.
If I call myself a solitary eclectic Supreme Court Judge, doesn't make it so and it ceratainly doesn't mean that I can comment on the process of becoming a Supreme Court Judge.

vwytche
The whole OP os pretty mudh C/Ped from this page and its links:

That's an out and out lie.

vwytche
It is just the biased opinion of a small but vocal minority that can not get it through their heads that other people's religious choices are none of their damned business.

With all due respect, you're wrong.
We're not saying your religious choice is wrong, we're saying that what you're calling it is wrong.


Hush. Dogs should have good sense to calm down and be quiet, after a while.
Is that Irish Gaelic? Oh, why can't we all get along and speak proper Scottish Gaelic? It was settled along time ago, which was better. Now don't get me wrong- It's not a crime not be Irish, rather than Scottish, but it certainly is a shame.
Calm down little dog, people can call things whatever they like. If they want to borrow a name, why not? Gardner borrowed everything to make Wicca.
Besides he's ENGLISH. You have a Gaelic name, and you defend an Englishman who stole everything from everyone to make his religion?
Shame. Little Dog, Shame.
Damn. Wish I could speak Gaelic fluently enough to call you that in Gaelic. would've been so much more effective. Well, suppose I should go to that Gaelic school or pick up those courses at Uni.
DragonicFlames
I found this today in a book I'm reviewing for my tumblr, basically this book is so full of horseshit that it's really not worth taking seriously. However, I thought it was amusing a quote, and I'd like some people to take a moment (iffin to brighten your day) to explain to me exactly what the hell this person is trying to talk about here.

Chapter 5, Becoming a Witch, p. 95; The Real Witches' Handbook by Kate West, sentence one and two.

Quote:
‘Thus far I have only talked about Witches in general, but like many other belief systems there are many kinds of Witch. The most commonly mentioned are Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Hereditary, Traditional, Solitary and Hedgewitch. As you will see below, these categories are not necessarily exclusive; one can be Gardnerian Hereditary or Traditional Solitary Hedgewitch, or almost any other combination.”


I just ... I just need someone to explain that to me. Because I can't process this s**t.


I have never heard of a legitimate Gardnerian refer to anybody as a Gardnerian Hereditary.
CuAnnan's avatar

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Hanja Kione
Hush. Dogs should have good sense to calm down and be quiet, after a while.

A hound can only serve one master. And you're not even close.

Hanja Kione
Is that Irish Gaelic? Oh, why can't we all get along and speak proper Scottish Gaelic?

1) It's just "Irish".
2) Scot's Gaelic is a dialect of Irish. Scotland having been settled by the Irish in the pre Roman Era. Hence "Scot" land, the land of the "Scoti" where "Scotia" was the latin name for Ireland.
Good gods, you're really ignorant.

Hanja Kione
It was settled along time ago, which was better. Now don't get me wrong- It's not a crime not be Irish, rather than Scottish, but it certainly is a shame.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Scots.
We gave them the bagpipes, we gave them a language, we gave them the kilt and 2000 years later they still haven't gotten the joke.

Hanja Kione
Calm down little dog, people can call things whatever they like. If they want to borrow a name, why not? Gardner borrowed everything to make Wicca.

Ah... so if I want to call you a cuntweasel it's ok?
No. It's not. Which is why it's a good thing I didn't.
Words have meaning and names have power.

Hanja Kione
Besides he's ENGLISH. You have a Gaelic name, and you defend an Englishman who stole everything from everyone to make his religion?

I'm Irish. What are you, some fifteenth generation American with pretensions of Scottish heritage?
Also, just because you're a racist hick doesn't mean I should be.

Hanja Kione
Wish I could speak Gaelic fluently enough to call you that in Gaelic. would've been so much more effective.

No. It really wouldn't.
If you spoke Gaelic remotely well enough, you'd know that "mada" is the Scot's Gaelic for dog, not "Cú".

Hanja Kione
Well, suppose I should go to that Gaelic school or pick up those courses at Uni.

Try to pick up a course in recent European history, Celtic civilisations and the Romanisation of Europe first, it'll knock some of that ignorance out of your head and hopefully replace it with some wisdom.

Now, if you have something ******** poignant or sensible to say, feel free. But if all you're going to do is stick names into google translate so you can appear smart, get back to the chatterbox.

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