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vwytche's avatar

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Esiris
vwytche
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vwytche

B/c elitist have nothing better to do than wave their little flags yelling, "LOOK AT US! WE'RE BETTER THAN YOU!" rolleyes

There is nothing emotional about stating a fact. Trust me, you have no idea how even tempered I try to stay in here. There are those that have encunters w/ me on other threads that will probably be glas to tell you that when I get emotional there is no mistaking it, or denying it.
I'm sorry, I think there was a communication here- remember when I said stuff about the three parts to argument? There's the ethos, logos and pathos: ethos makes an appeal based on moral arguments, logos is about statistics and doctumentation, studies and history- pathos are the emotional and personal appeals.

When I read that statement, it doesn't have any statistics or anything, so it can't be logos (for me those arguments are always the easiest to spot). It doesn't make a philosophical argument about the moral development of humans and the role of transparency and oaths so it doesn't have what it needs to be an ethos argument. But it is using charged words like "elitism" or speaking to emotional motivations of other people "We're better than you!"- making it pathos.

I think that pathos arguments are needed in any debate- but they have to be done fairly. cat_sweatdrop

Quote:
I never said anyone in particular behaved this way. Did I name any names? I just said elitists. I didn't say initiates, or BTW, or even gardnerists. I said eilitists. So, if you aren't one, and don't behave this way it wasn't directed at you. The problem with a party line is, everybody gets lumped together. The statement you quoted was in response to a question from nyx about why some people here were treating her badly. If you don't think the shoe fits (and honestly, for you, it doesn't), than don't wear it.
I think lots of this comes back to the whole Intent v. Impact stuff, and I'm sorry this wasn't more clear on my part.

To me, I and a couple other people are trying really hard to explain what Wicca is- I know you disagree with us, but we're like you in that we're doing what we think is right. Most of us, including Nuri, Sang, Blackrose, Yami and I (and others too) are all doing our best to be polite, but Nyx was upset- and was saying things that were directed at people who were being polite saying they were harassing her.

From my perspective, this means that to Nyx there wasn't a distinction between people who were being rude and people who were being polite- so when you respond to her perception of people being rude by calling the people she is talking about elitists, it lumps all of the people who disagree with you both into the same category.

Quote:
Isn't it interesting? Vouched initiate, coven HPS, seated elder w/ the COG, and she still got targeted by the Gaia Wicca Watch and Pagan Patrol for not toeing the party line. Sort of make the actual loyalties very apparent doesn't it? For all the fancy talk about protecting and respecting Wicca she still got told she didn't know what she was talking about. Frankly, I find it amazing that the paradoxical irony of that even needs pointing out. There are those here that don't give a rat's tail about Wicca and are simply arguing their own opinion w/ anybody that disagrees w/ it.
But there were also people who were trying to improve the FAQ who weren't attacking her. cat_3nodding

Quote:
Truth for the sake of truth is a very powerful motivater. It's the main reason I keep coming in here and throwing myself into this every day. Some one has to be the voice of truth in the chaos.


And I think that's where things get sticky- since we all look to truth by examining, it means we have to look at pathos, logos and ethos evidence.


Quote:
What other non-initiates do reflects on me tremendously, also what initiates do. I've worked hard to convince my community that I'm just a normal everyday person that just happens to be of a different religion, and that no, Wicca is not about devil worship ond sex orgies. Heaven help me the search Wicca online and come across this.

http://www.celtic-twilight.com/otherworld/wicce/bookofshadows/scourge_and_the_kiss.htm

I think that part of the problem is that Wicca's Laws make room for two ways of handling that- be a Hidden Child of the Goddess, or accept that it's part of Wicca and be willing to stand up for yourself. I think it's really unfair to represent Wiccan ritual as "sex orgies" just from that passage- and if you don't want to be associated with Wiccan ritual- it doesn't make sense to identify as Wiccan. cat_neutral

Quote:
And heaven help these people that come in here and get badgered if their resolve is weakened. If they get bullied into believing one stranger online than what's to stop them from just buying it when someone tells them this is Wicca?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20001162-504083.html


Or this

http://tuecaa.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/protecting-*****]

Or this

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2010/04/wiccan-arrested-on-child-rape-charges.html

I think what you're describing isn't always part of someone being badgered- I think lots of times it's people seeing the evidence and changing their minds- at least I hope it is.

To be honest- that's exactly what Wicca is trying to prevent by making a difference between initiates and non-Wiccans- Wicca's laws prohibit drawing the attention of the Law of the Land, or by bringing dishonor and disgrace to Wicca. Why should initiates have to have people who don't live up to the Laws reflect on them?
Quote:

Just think, if you will, one of my neighbors gets told, "Oh vwytche? Don't listen to her. She's not a real Wiccan." You know what happens next? Everything I've done and said goes right out the window as they read these article online and get the idea that wicca really must be about ritual killing and child abuse and scary sex stuff despite what i have said. After all, how would I knwo if I'm not a real Wiccan?
I kind of see these all as evidence that Wicca- with it's laws and training, is set apart from that stuff.

I'm sorry in advance, but this is really hard to phrase, so please remember my intent in all this:
The people in those articles are Wiccan in the same way you are- you all came to the title of Wicca through the same way instead of how initiates came to it, and I think that's the problem that Wicca faces, that anyone who calls themselves Wiccan is so because people have mixed the words Wiccan and Witch in modern English in ways that as non-initiates they can't fully grasp.

Quote:
Members of non-mainstream religions need to be working together to squelch these negative stereo types that lead to more hate mongering, not making it easier for the lies to spread with infighting.
Since every link showed someone who wasn't initiate and the only Wiccan practice linked to is done by consenting adults, I think distinguishing Wicca from non-intiiates practices is a way to do that. Then you can go through and affirm other witchcraft traditions.

vwytche

If she says she feels harassed, asks you to stop, and you keep up, that IS harassment, luv. She is not interested in your opinion. She doesn't have to justify it. She doesn't have to prove anything. If she's not interested, she is not interested, making your options find a way to live with it or get an ulcer.

I didn't get that impression from Nyx though- she disagreed, but she kept asking questions which invites more discussion. I'm really proud of Nyx- I know last night was hard on her- but she did really well when she came back to herself.

I think it's unfair to treat disagreement with harassment- what would happen to our posts if we did that! cat_whee

vwytche


Look at the current unpleasentness. nyx got jumped all over to the point of feeling ganged upon and insulted. When she said as much did anyone back? Did anyone apologize?
I kind of did, and so did Nuri- which is why that kind of generalization isn't very fair.

Quote:
When someone says they feel that way, and others keep pushing the point b/c the "the truth" ie their opinion, is so much more important that another persons feelings that is innapropriate behavior.
I agree with that- but I think there's another way too- what if instead of seeing it as being more important, people try and comfort the person who is feeling attacked while still helping them understand what is going on?


OK, enough of the ethos, pathos, logos already. I know, I know everybody hangs around the student union talking about what they're learning in their classes. And I know that it's a lot of hard work to master the material, so one is understandably proud and wants to demostrate their mastery of it. I also know that when one is getting so ingrained with it as they do during the learning process it's only natural the apply the info everywhere, even where it doesn't fit. But once you get out of school people don't talk like that.

If you have any interest in the content of my posts and wish to respond to it than fine. But I've had it up to my hairline with the disection and anaysis of them. You get so caught up in breaking what I'm saying down into its components and dealing with each bit differently that you miss the forest for the trees, and then you get frustrated that I'm repeating myself No offense intended, but I am not interested inyour academic crititque of my posts. I am not handing them in to get graded. If I care to do that there is a perfectly good college on the other side of town I can attend.

I'm not going to get caught up into who did what to who for how many cookies. Justify it any way you like. The fact is that, for what ever reason, some one was feeling very hurt and very bullied, and all she got for saying so is a couple of kind of sort of apologies (one from some one that wasn't even doing it rolleyes ) and more of the same. I know everyone here is all caught up in there quest to "spread the truth and everyone agreeing with them is way more important than some one's feelings, or little things like facts.

Now everything has to be proven so brace yourself b/c here comes the proof.

You obviously were not overly concerned about my feelings when you drew a comparision between myself and the people in those articles. I know were a bit b/c you said yourself that you were trying to find a nice way to say it, or some such. Yeah, you were trying to find a nice way to say something nasty. mad Oh, the solitaries are the baaad people look what you all do! We BTW would never let some one like that be one of us. We don't give a s**t that the these things happen, just so long as we're not associated with it. Never mind work WITH the solitaries and eclectics to educate the public that this sort of thing has nothing to do with Wicca.. We're more than happy to throw the solitaries to the wolves as sacraficial lambs and let the world think what ever they like about them, just so long as it doesn't get our lily white perfect hands dirty. We screne to keep these people away from us after which they are free do what ever they like, just so long as they don't use OUR word when they do it.

Well, pardon my French, but nice ******** attitude. Yes, THAT would be me getting emotional. I think it is warranted.

So, if your still reading, any response to the attacks that drove your own HPS off of Gaia in disgust at what she found here othe than, "Well, not EVERYBODY was attacking her."? Uh-huh, if it wasn't EVERYBODY than there must not be a problem at all, right? rolleyes

Sorry, but you really, REALLY IMO opinion need to seriously think about some of this with your eyes open. The whole if it ain't gardner, it ain't wicca load has more holes than a seive, and you are to smart not to see them b/c you're too afraid to look for fear of what you'll see.

And yes, I already know I'm getting emotional. Please don't feel the need to point it out.
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Sup.

I like knowledge. I have no intention of following this faith, but s**t let's learn about it.

I noticed in the OP, one particular idea of the Wiccan faith is that of reincarnation into a new body. The question I have does not explicitly apply to Wicca but rather any faith that involves the belief of reincarnation. This just so happens to set it up nicely.

In the OP, death was proposed to be a sort of "resting" chamber until the spirit (or something else?) is prepared for their new body. I really like the idea of reincarnation, since it is beautiful on a spiritual and emotional level, but I sincerely have to question one particular thing: How is the increasing in number of simultaneously lives matched by the spirit what inhabits it? In the past, there were not seven billion people in the world, meaning there did not exist seven billion spirits inhabiting bodies at one specific time. So this leads me to wonder:

Are some bodies just "spiritless" or otherwise uninhabited if there is no free spirit to inhabit it? Or do new lives have a tendency to also form new spirits as well? Or maybe these spirits reproduce and have little baby spirits of their own?

In the latter two, assuming we can apply any sort of mass to these spirits, how has the large number of spirits not caused a collapse in a dimension or something of the like? (Nevermind, that's easily resolved by just ignoring all 'human' laws of physics.)

Not trying to debase the idea or anything, but I just want to know a bit more about how you guys view the reincarnation thing.

Also, given that it is a religion of fertility with a large emphasis on sex, what of homosexuality? No, I'm not asking if it's accepted. Obviously it is, off on the personal level. But what of in rituals and ceremonies? Homosexuals are not going to be particularly interested in performing The Grand Rite, mimicking the Lord and the Lady. Do they just have to bite the bullet and do it anyway? Or is the Rite in token still 'enough', per se, to complete necessary ceremonial magics? If anything, I'm more surprised that there isn't an idea in the religion giving that homosexual couples still take after the Lord and the Lady despite not 'physically' matching that description. I suppose that is, perhaps, on a coven-to-coven basis?
Immy Katten
Homosexuals are not going to be particularly interested in performing The Grand Rite, mimicking the Lord and the Lady.


Why not?

Immy Katten
If anything, I'm more surprised that there isn't an idea in the religion giving that homosexual couples still take after the Lord and the Lady despite not 'physically' matching that description.


I'm not, given that the religion is fertility-focused, and there is a difference in fertility between homosexual couples and the Lord and the Lady.
vwytche's avatar

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Immy Katten
Sup.

I like knowledge. I have no intention of following this faith, but s**t let's learn about it.

I noticed in the OP, one particular idea of the Wiccan faith is that of reincarnation into a new body. The question I have does not explicitly apply to Wicca but rather any faith that involves the belief of reincarnation. This just so happens to set it up nicely.

In the OP, death was proposed to be a sort of "resting" chamber until the spirit (or something else?) is prepared for their new body. I really like the idea of reincarnation, since it is beautiful on a spiritual and emotional level, but I sincerely have to question one particular thing: How is the increasing in number of simultaneously lives matched by the spirit what inhabits it? In the past, there were not seven billion people in the world, meaning there did not exist seven billion spirits inhabiting bodies at one specific time. So this leads me to wonder:

Are some bodies just "spiritless" or otherwise uninhabited if there is no free spirit to inhabit it? Or do new lives have a tendency to also form new spirits as well? Or maybe these spirits reproduce and have little baby spirits of their own?

In the latter two, assuming we can apply any sort of mass to these spirits, how has the large number of spirits not caused a collapse in a dimension or something of the like? (Nevermind, that's easily resolved by just ignoring all 'human' laws of physics.)

Not trying to debase the idea or anything, but I just want to know a bit more about how you guys view the reincarnation thing.

Also, given that it is a religion of fertility with a large emphasis on sex, what of homosexuality? No, I'm not asking if it's accepted. Obviously it is, off on the personal level. But what of in rituals and ceremonies? Homosexuals are not going to be particularly interested in performing The Grand Rite, mimicking the Lord and the Lady. Do they just have to bite the bullet and do it anyway? Or is the Rite in token still 'enough', per se, to complete necessary ceremonial magics? If anything, I'm more surprised that there isn't an idea in the religion giving that homosexual couples still take after the Lord and the Lady despite not 'physically' matching that description. I suppose that is, perhaps, on a coven-to-coven basis?


Interesting question considering Gardner was a raging homophobe. I'll be interested to see what comes of this.
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vwytche
OK, enough of the ethos, pathos, logos already. I know, I know everybody hangs around the student union talking about what they're learning in their classes. And I know that it's a lot of hard work to master the material, so one is understandably proud and wants to demostrate their mastery of it. I also know that when one is getting so ingrained with it as they do during the learning process it's only natural the apply the info everywhere, even where it doesn't fit. But once you get out of school people don't talk like that.

I was trying to point out why and how your posts aren't addressing all the important angles- it is only supposed to be a tool to help and I'm sorry I frustrated you with it.

If you want, I can use more synonyms.

Quote:
If you have any interest in the content of my posts and wish to respond to it than fine. But I've had it up to my hairline with the disection and anaysis of them. You get so caught up in breaking what I'm saying down into its components and dealing with each bit differently that you miss the forest for the trees, and then you get frustrated that I'm repeating myself No offense intended, but I am not interested inyour academic crititque of my posts. I am not handing them in to get graded. If I care to do that there is a perfectly good college on the other side of town I can attend.
It's not about that- and if I came across that way I'm sorry.

I think we both see how complex Wicca is- breaking things down helps me make things concrete, and that helps ideas stick. I also think it helps me understand where there is consistency and inconsistency and it's important because consistency is a key part of truth.



Quote:
I'm not going to get caught up into who did what to who for how many cookies. Justify it any way you like. The fact is that, for what ever reason, some one was feeling very hurt and very bullied, and all she got for saying so is a couple of kind of sort of apologies (one from some one that wasn't even doing it rolleyes ) and more of the same. I know everyone here is all caught up in there quest to "spread the truth and everyone agreeing with them is way more important than some one's feelings, or little things like facts.

Now everything has to be proven so brace yourself b/c here comes the proof.

You obviously were not overly concerned about my feelings when you drew a comparision between myself and the people in those articles. I know were a bit b/c you said yourself that you were trying to find a nice way to say it, or some such. Yeah, you were trying to find a nice way to say something nasty. mad
I was trying to find a way to explain how we are all responsible for both what we intend to create when it comes to Wicca's reputation and the effect we have in the real world.
I don't think you're anything like the woman who stabbed the guy- but the consistent characteristic the people in the articles have is that they're not Initiates. I brought at least one of those links to you when I first explained why The Old Laws are important. It wasn't an attack on you or your ethics, but an explanation as to why Wiccans are so protective of the title.

Quote:
Oh, the solitaries are the baaad people look what you all do! We BTW would never let some one like that be one of us.
I don't think Solitaries are bad. My girlfriend, her husband and most of my friends, even Sang and Nuri are solitaries- so it isn't being solitary that makes someone bad and I don't think you're bad and being Wiccan won't make someone good!

However- there is a process of study, development, oaths and measures that Wicca has, and I think it's wrong to say that Wiccans and Eclectics don't care about the harm that bad people case while calling themselves Wiccan. Reading through Wild Hunt is enough to see there are people who have a serious problem with people doing bad things in Wicca.

The other side of that is that

Quote:
Never mind work WITH the solitaries and eclectics to educate the public that this sort of thing has nothing to do with Wicca.. We're more than happy to throw the solitaries to the wolves as sacraficial lambs and let the world think what ever they like about them, just so long as it doesn't get our lily white perfect hands dirty. We screne to keep these people away from us after which they are free do what ever they like, just so long as they don't use OUR word when they do it.


The way most of my covenmates came to Wicca was through the work my HPS did to educate the public. I think that this part of what you're saying only addresses that one aspect of what's involved, and since Wiccans have training covens, Amber and Jet archives, conventions and news letters and blogs, there is lots of support for public education, much of which includes supporting Eclectics and Solitaries. But I think it's not really fair to push all of that responsibility on them- since the main focus of Wicca isn't PR, it's worshiping the Lord and Lady.

Quote:
Well, pardon my French, but nice ******** attitude. Yes, THAT would be me getting emotional. I think it is warranted.

I don't think it's fair to meet my honest attempts (and my short comings) with intentional mistreatment.

Quote:
So, if your still reading, any response to the attacks that drove your own HPS off of Gaia in disgust at what she found here othe than, "Well, not EVERYBODY was attacking her."? Uh-huh, if it wasn't EVERYBODY than there must not be a problem at all, right? rolleyes

It was the behavior, and not the message that was the problem- not that she's actually gone, it's more that she's just busy. Something about this last year has had everyone I know more busy than usual.

Quote:

Sorry, but you really, REALLY IMO opinion need to seriously think about some of this with your eyes open. The whole if it ain't gardner, it ain't wicca load has more holes than a seive, and you are to smart not to see them b/c you're too afraid to look for fear of what you'll see.

If you want, I can explain what I'd need to see in order to be persuaded. It's not impossible to change my mind, and I can give you details on the kind of evidence and arguments that I'd need to be convinced that I'm wrong.

Quote:
And yes, I already know I'm getting emotional. Please don't feel the need to point it out.
I know that you're better than this- that you don't want to hurt people and that you're standing up for what you think is right. I just really hope that
vwytche's avatar

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Esiris
vwytche
OK, enough of the ethos, pathos, logos already. I know, I know everybody hangs around the student union talking about what they're learning in their classes. And I know that it's a lot of hard work to master the material, so one is understandably proud and wants to demostrate their mastery of it. I also know that when one is getting so ingrained with it as they do during the learning process it's only natural the apply the info everywhere, even where it doesn't fit. But once you get out of school people don't talk like that.

I was trying to point out why and how your posts aren't addressing all the important angles- it is only supposed to be a tool to help and I'm sorry I frustrated you with it.

If you want, I can use more synonyms.

Quote:
If you have any interest in the content of my posts and wish to respond to it than fine. But I've had it up to my hairline with the disection and anaysis of them. You get so caught up in breaking what I'm saying down into its components and dealing with each bit differently that you miss the forest for the trees, and then you get frustrated that I'm repeating myself No offense intended, but I am not interested inyour academic crititque of my posts. I am not handing them in to get graded. If I care to do that there is a perfectly good college on the other side of town I can attend.
It's not about that- and if I came across that way I'm sorry.

I think we both see how complex Wicca is- breaking things down helps me make things concrete, and that helps ideas stick. I also think it helps me understand where there is consistency and inconsistency and it's important because consistency is a key part of truth.



Quote:
I'm not going to get caught up into who did what to who for how many cookies. Justify it any way you like. The fact is that, for what ever reason, some one was feeling very hurt and very bullied, and all she got for saying so is a couple of kind of sort of apologies (one from some one that wasn't even doing it rolleyes ) and more of the same. I know everyone here is all caught up in there quest to "spread the truth and everyone agreeing with them is way more important than some one's feelings, or little things like facts.

Now everything has to be proven so brace yourself b/c here comes the proof.

You obviously were not overly concerned about my feelings when you drew a comparision between myself and the people in those articles. I know were a bit b/c you said yourself that you were trying to find a nice way to say it, or some such. Yeah, you were trying to find a nice way to say something nasty. mad
I was trying to find a way to explain how we are all responsible for both what we intend to create when it comes to Wicca's reputation and the effect we have in the real world.
I don't think you're anything like the woman who stabbed the guy- but the consistent characteristic the people in the articles have is that they're not Initiates. I brought at least one of those links to you when I first explained why The Old Laws are important. It wasn't an attack on you or your ethics, but an explanation as to why Wiccans are so protective of the title.

Quote:
Oh, the solitaries are the baaad people look what you all do! We BTW would never let some one like that be one of us.
I don't think Solitaries are bad. My girlfriend, her husband and most of my friends, even Sang and Nuri are solitaries- so it isn't being solitary that makes someone bad and I don't think you're bad and being Wiccan won't make someone good!

However- there is a process of study, development, oaths and measures that Wicca has, and I think it's wrong to say that Wiccans and Eclectics don't care about the harm that bad people case while calling themselves Wiccan. Reading through Wild Hunt is enough to see there are people who have a serious problem with people doing bad things in Wicca.

The other side of that is that

Quote:
Never mind work WITH the solitaries and eclectics to educate the public that this sort of thing has nothing to do with Wicca.. We're more than happy to throw the solitaries to the wolves as sacraficial lambs and let the world think what ever they like about them, just so long as it doesn't get our lily white perfect hands dirty. We screne to keep these people away from us after which they are free do what ever they like, just so long as they don't use OUR word when they do it.


The way most of my covenmates came to Wicca was through the work my HPS did to educate the public. I think that this part of what you're saying only addresses that one aspect of what's involved, and since Wiccans have training covens, Amber and Jet archives, conventions and news letters and blogs, there is lots of support for public education, much of which includes supporting Eclectics and Solitaries. But I think it's not really fair to push all of that responsibility on them- since the main focus of Wicca isn't PR, it's worshiping the Lord and Lady.

Quote:
Well, pardon my French, but nice ******** attitude. Yes, THAT would be me getting emotional. I think it is warranted.

I don't think it's fair to meet my honest attempts (and my short comings) with intentional mistreatment.

Quote:
So, if your still reading, any response to the attacks that drove your own HPS off of Gaia in disgust at what she found here othe than, "Well, not EVERYBODY was attacking her."? Uh-huh, if it wasn't EVERYBODY than there must not be a problem at all, right? rolleyes

It was the behavior, and not the message that was the problem- not that she's actually gone, it's more that she's just busy. Something about this last year has had everyone I know more busy than usual.

Quote:

Sorry, but you really, REALLY IMO opinion need to seriously think about some of this with your eyes open. The whole if it ain't gardner, it ain't wicca load has more holes than a seive, and you are to smart not to see them b/c you're too afraid to look for fear of what you'll see.

If you want, I can explain what I'd need to see in order to be persuaded. It's not impossible to change my mind, and I can give you details on the kind of evidence and arguments that I'd need to be convinced that I'm wrong.

Quote:
And yes, I already know I'm getting emotional. Please don't feel the need to point it out.
I know that you're better than this- that you don't want to hurt people and that you're standing up for what you think is right. I just really hope that


Ok, so if you feel I'm leaving out something important you can ask me questions. I'll be happy to answer them. But disregarding what I have said b/c you feel it was incomplete gets us no where. You're right Wicca is very complex, too complex to believe it was all the brain child of some high school drop out that had to copy somebody else's work in order the come up with as much as he did. That would be one of the holes I was talking about. How do you just overlook that little inconsistancy?

See, this is a perfect example of what I am talking about. The consitent characteristic of the people in those articles is that are whack jobs. By trying make a point of them not being initiates you are vicariously implying that being a non-initiate was somehow a contributing facter to the crime. Suppose I said that the consistent characteristic of the 9-11 bombers was that they were male, or that they were muslim, or that they were Arabic? Would that be all right with you? The consistent characteristic was that they were terrorists. Anything else, that did not contribute to the comission of the crime is falicious to even bring up. The media does enough to sensationalize this stuff. You don't hear about Christian crimes, or Jewish crimes. It wouldnt sell papers. Wicca crimes is just the media selling a negative stereo type to up ratings. And saying stuff like, "Well, they weren't initiates." just helps them do it, b/c if initiation is the important point, than basically you are saying I'm just like the woman who did the stabbing. That's what anyone listening that doesn't know any better would hear.

What you are ignoring is that the SWs and the EWs are here, in great number. The public is very aware of us. And this sort of thing is going to associated with anyone that calls themselves Wicca. By saying that those are those NIW, not usYou are cutting every single one of us of the same cloth and shoving us in the line of fire to protect your own rep. And it's not going to work anyway b/c John Q Public isn't going to make the distinction. By casting guilt on any sort of Wicca you are bringing back on yourselves.

Now perhaps you didn't think all that all the way through. But, you knew that something didn't feel right about it, or you wouldn't have apologized in advance.

You are still avoiding my main point as pertains to your HPS and her thread. She was set upon by a certain vocal minority, basically for taking the stance that there was no problem w/ solitairies and eclectics using the word Wicca. She posted several FAQs stating as such. I therefore find your views on it puzzling. It's none of my business, but have you spoken to her about this at all?

Rather than have you outline everything, which you can if you want, I'd be interested to hear how you repond to some of the inconsistancies in the IIAGIAW story? For instance, GG was quoted as saying once a witch always a witch. A big chunk of his claim to authenticity was that he was supposedly a reincarnated witch. So, that blows a pretty big hole in the whole thing unless you're just willing to say, "Well, GG said a lot of stuff......." Which would still blow a big hole in the whole thing. So, how do you reconcile that? And before you just say he said witch, not Wicca, remember back in this previous life a witch was a wicca, or as he spelled it wica.

Which is another little inconsistancy. GG obviously felt that a witch and a wica were the same thing. Is that just another thing he got wrong?

Finally, I don't set out to hurt anyone, but I will play by the rules that are set down. I've already explained how what you said was hurtful and upsetting to me and why. That door swings both ways. I don't think you intended to be hurtful, but I think you could have thought things through a little more thoroughly before saying what you did.
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Homosexuals are not going to be particularly interested in performing The Grand Rite, mimicking the Lord and the Lady.


Why not?


Because the Grand Rite, in truth, would be heterosexual sex, would it not? I mean, it can be done in token but it's preferable to be done in truth, yes?
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Homosexuals are not going to be particularly interested in performing The Grand Rite, mimicking the Lord and the Lady.


Why not?


Because the Grand Rite, in truth, would be heterosexual sex, would it not?


A person is able to be convinced that something against their usual biological drives is in their interest.
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Immy Katten
Homosexuals are not going to be particularly interested in performing The Grand Rite, mimicking the Lord and the Lady.


Why not?

as vwytche said possibly because Gardener was as homophobic as your average southern Baptist, I would think they would find the religion hostile.
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My understanding is that it is all about the plumbing. One's sexual preference isn't really an issue as long as they are willing to act in a role that corresponds with their physical gender. Are there potentially some covens that may be homophobic... sure, but it's not something that is a characteristic of all of Wicca.
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Homosexuals are not going to be particularly interested in performing The Grand Rite, mimicking the Lord and the Lady.


Why not?


Because the Grand Rite, in truth, would be heterosexual sex, would it not?


A person is able to be convinced that something against their usual biological drives is in their interest.


So they would still need to partake in heterosexual sex, then?

Here's a question. If it's about fertility, are condoms blasphemous? blaugh
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Immy Katten
Homosexuals are not going to be particularly interested in performing The Grand Rite, mimicking the Lord and the Lady.


Why not?

as vwytche said possibly because Gardener was as homophobic as your average southern Baptist, I would think they would find the religion hostile.

And thus, we have the Alexandrians due to Alex Sanders, and the Solitairies, due to Scott Cunningham.

Funny ol' world, ain't it. biggrin
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Homosexuals are not going to be particularly interested in performing The Grand Rite, mimicking the Lord and the Lady.


Why not?


Because the Grand Rite, in truth, would be heterosexual sex, would it not?


A person is able to be convinced that something against their usual biological drives is in their interest.


So they would still need to partake in heterosexual sex, then?

Here's a question. If it's about fertility, are condoms blasphemous? blaugh


THANK YOU!!!

I've been trying to get a straight (no pun intended) answer to that for months now.

I mean if this cult really is about fertility, shouldn't they be popping out babies at a record rate? Shouldn't being fertile and multiplying be a sort of holy obligation? So, what's up with that? Cause as far as I know using birth control make it sex for pleasure, right?
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Homosexuals are not going to be particularly interested in performing The Grand Rite, mimicking the Lord and the Lady.


Why not?


Because the Grand Rite, in truth, would be heterosexual sex, would it not?


A person is able to be convinced that something against their usual biological drives is in their interest.


So they would still need to partake in heterosexual sex, then?


Presumably.

Immy Katten
Here's a question. If it's about fertility, are condoms blasphemous? blaugh


One can celebrate the capability to bear offspring without bearing offspring.

Presumably.
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Why not?


Because the Grand Rite, in truth, would be heterosexual sex, would it not?


A person is able to be convinced that something against their usual biological drives is in their interest.


So they would still need to partake in heterosexual sex, then?


Presumably.

Immy Katten
Here's a question. If it's about fertility, are condoms blasphemous? blaugh


One can celebrate the capability to bear offspring without bearing offspring.

Presumably.


OK, so suppose a gardnerist has a vastecomy or hysterectomy? Or has just gone through menopause? Then they wouldn't be capable of bearing ofspring. Do they have to abstain from ritual after that?

Come to thnk of it, one of the 161 laws does state that a priestess must step down at a certain age b/c only a young attractive woman can be the rep of the Goddess. Which makes NO sense considering the Goddess has three aspects, so why would a priestess have to resemble only one of them?

Anyway, maybe by the time a woman goes through the change she's supposed to stay out of the rituals. Question is, is that b/c of the fertility facter, or just b/c a menapausal woman isn't as much fun to watch dance naked as a mid twenties woman?

Whoa, if the cult is just about fertility, than what's the crone aspect even doing in the mix? Curiouser and curiouser, said Alice.

rofl My goodness, anyone would thing Gardner was just making this up as he went along. What ever could his motive have been do you suppose?

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