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Saianna
Kaosgirl
The the Law of Memetic Degradation must be real too, since it's also called a law.

Or maybe I just pulled it out of my a** right this moment, and stuck the word "Law" into the title just to give it that nice air of authority.
Wait. Was that a serious response?


Absolutely. Now please start showing proper respect to the Law, k?

Saianna
Kaosgirl

Wait. I thought they didn't care what (s)he called hirself?
Slander is slander, whether or not the person being slandered cares.

Hrm, let's see.

Quote:

Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community.
http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/term/85BAB88B-0660-4AB6-A2F5C32E716A6D52


Nah. Seems to me if they don't care, then any harm being done must be trivial at best (at least, in their eyes.) And even if they did, somehow I don't think "Oh My Self, that person called themselves by a name Gardner adopted for our followers when they really aren't" would hold up in court.

So it's kind of hard to call that slander. Misinformation, maybe.

And really, when you've got a cult who's initiatory requirements include being able to filter the truth from the drek so as to keep the 'unworthy' from even looking at the door let alone getting in... aren't the fluffy-bunny nature-worshippers kind of doing you a favor?

Or is this just what mystery-cults do instead of proselytizing?
Bacodus
Anarchist Miracle

I'd like to see this research before I take your word for it.

And here's another point: If, as the wiki article says, Gardner supplemented Wicca using other occult sources, does that not make him the first culture rapist? He took rituals from other belief systems which previously were not part of Wicca, and said "This is Wicca." He admitted this himself.

Now, how were you defining "closed tradition"?


The term Wica originated with him, again, the sources I would cite to you are cited on the opening post.

I don't see them. Some of the links on the OP are 404s. But in any case, it seems more likely to me that it was derived from the Old English word "wicca" meaning a witch or wizard.

Quote:
Closed tradition AGAIN means that it is an ESOTERIC RELIGION THAT MUST BE TAUGHT BY SOMEONE ELSE IN THE RELIGION. I don't know how I can say it more clear than that.

So, given that Gardner was not wholly taught by somebody else, why can't somebody do exactly what he did--take an amalgram of other religions rituals and use an Old English word for witchcraft to describe it?

Celeblin Galadeneryn
Because he was wrong?

He based a lot of that on a piece of work by Margaret Murray, which after his death was proven to be bunk. Furthermore, he founded the religion in it's current form. If you want to believe that the New Forest Coven existed, of which there is little proof, then he took what he learned from them, and turned it into Wicca. If the New Forest Coven didn't exist, then it's straight from the Lord and Lady to him, and he just managed to get very confused in the process.

And so, why can't someone else receive direct revelation from the Lord and Lady? Why is it that Gardner is the 'founder' of a religion but someone who does the exact same thing today is called a culture rapist?
Kaosgirl
Absolutely. Now please start showing proper respect to the Law, k?
Where's the :psyduck: emoticon from Something Awful when I need it? I seriously have no idea what you're trying to get at here. Would you mind being clear about exactly what you're trying to say with the "Law of Memetic Degradation"?

Kaosgirl
Nah. Seems to me if they don't care, then any harm being done must be trivial at best (at least, in their eyes.)
I'm sorry, but your definition of "slander", applied to other acts, would imply that abuse isn't abuse if the person being abused thinks they deserved it. Just because someone isn't offended by something (and I never said that the Lord and Lady aren't offended by pretenders to the name, so I don't know where you're coming from there either) doesn't magically make it be not slander. Your overly-legalistic interpretation of slander when applied theologically, and questionable legal understanding of the term to begin with, isn't winning any points here.

Oh, now I see where you're getting your claim from - you completely misinterpreted "don't care what they 'call themselves'" as a statement that the Lord and Lady are necessarily impassive on the matter. I was stating that the Lord and Lady "don't care" in the sense that it doesn't matter whether or not a group calls itself Wiccan, they're not automatically the clergy of the Lord and Lady. Since this topic is about the clergy of the Lord and Lady of the Isles, there is no reason to discuss groups that "call themselves" Wiccan, because the Lord and Lady do not acknowledge them as such.

As to the rest of your post, I'm not Wiccan, nor have I ever (as in, in my lifetime) claimed to be. I'm purely academic on the matter of this religion.

It's just like talking to MeerKate, only with better grammar! And she thinks I'm only confused and bothered by people with spelling errors....

FURTHER ADDENDUM: Just to clarify a little more, think of it in the legalistic terms you originally brought up. Party A is suing Party B for slander because Party B has been claiming to be affiliated with Party A. Party B says "Hey, I've been calling myself a Party A affiliate for five years!", at which point Party A could say "We don't care how long you've been calling yourself that; it's incorrect and makes us look bad. Stop it."

That's what I'm talking about here. The deities don't care if you call yourselves Wiccan in the sense that it instills in them no sense of obligation to assist you in being absolutely wrong about your religion.
Saianna
Kaosgirl
Absolutely. Now please start showing proper respect to the Law, k?
Where's the :psyduck: emoticon from Something Awful when I need it? I seriously have no idea what you're trying to get at here. Would you mind being clear about exactly what you're trying to say with the "Law of Memetic Degradation"?


Honest answer?
I took the post it was in response to as genuine, and attempted a sarcastic rebuttal.
If it wasn't a genuine response, and was instead a mocking mimicry of those who might believe in this 'law of attraction'... then we were ultimately saying the same thing.

Saianna

Kaosgirl
Nah. Seems to me if they don't care, then any harm being done must be trivial at best (at least, in their eyes.)
I'm sorry, but your definition of "slander", applied to other acts, would imply that abuse isn't abuse if the person being abused thinks they deserved it.


To quote Eastwood: Deserve's got nothing to do with it. More to the point, thinking you deserve something is also a sign of caring.

Incidentally, your use of that analogy raises other questions, but they're not even related to this topic so I'll hold off on them for now.

Saianna

Just because someone isn't offended by something (and I never said that the Lord and Lady aren't offended by pretenders to the name, so I don't know where you're coming from there either) doesn't magically make it be not slander. Your overly-legalistic interpretation of slander when applied theologically, and questionable legal understanding of the term to begin with, isn't winning any points here.


A lie has to do credible harm to be slander. If those who you claim are being slandered aren't offended by it - which is what saying they don't care means, since lack of concern cuts both ways - then it's hard to really claim they were harmed by it.

Now, maybe their *followers* are harmed by this lie. But if that's the case, then it's *they* who are being slandered.

Oh, now I see where you're getting your claim from - you completely misinterpreted "don't care what they 'call themselves'" as a statement that the Lord and Lady are necessarily impassive on the matter.


That is what those words mean. If thats not what you meant, then... well, all I can say is that when you take issue with one group of people misusing words, you should probably be more careful with the words you use. Maybe try "They're not impressed" instead next time?

Saianna

I was stating that the Lord and Lady "don't care" in the sense that it doesn't matter whether or not a group calls itself Wiccan, they're not automatically the clergy of the Lord and Lady.


Funny thing. Most of the folks who "erroneously" claim that title... don't claim that they are clergy of this Lord and Lady. They don't relate Wicca to that meaning; either because they're ignorant, or they just don't accept Gardner's claim to sole ownership of it.

Now, my Discordian ways lead me to laugh at either reason just as readily. But then, I'm just as happy laughing at the clergy of the Lord and Lady trying to hold onto an exclusive claim to a word they've already lost. In a world where a celebutante can popularize using the words "hot" and "cool" synonomously in under a year, it should be obvious that the language we're operating in is much to fluid for those kinds of claims to be taken seriously.

Please don't confuse this with laughing at the deeper beliefs of either, though.

Saianna

Since this topic is about the clergy of the Lord and Lady of the Isles, there is no reason to discuss groups that "call themselves" Wiccan, because the Lord and Lady do not acknowledge them as such.


The tItle of the thread says "Wiccan FAQ." That alone seems to me like an invitation for the other groups that call themselves Wiccan to step up and defend their use of the title.

...
Okay, I'll grant I haven't seen any of them do so effectively. Might help if they'd at least read the OP enough to understand that the legitimacy of their nomenclature has been called into question, and the grounds apon which this has been done.

Saianna

As to the rest of your post, I'm not Wiccan,


Well, I was using the word "you" more in the generic sense there. Still, I'll admit I had thought otherwise.

Saianna

It's just like talking to MeerKate, only with better grammar! And she thinks I'm only confused and bothered by people with spelling errors....


50 1 5up0z3 7h15 |/|u57 83 /3r1 4nn0y1||6 4 u?

Sorry, Eris told me to razz

Saianna

FURTHER ADDENDUM: Just to clarify a little more, think of it in the legalistic terms you originally brought up. Party A is suing Party B for slander because Party B has been claiming to be affiliated with Party A.


Actually, it's more like Party A, who claims they are the only legitimate affiliates to Party L, is suing Party B for insulting Party L by claiming affiliation with Party A.

Saianna

Party B says "Hey, I've been calling myself a Party A affiliate for five years!",


Again, no. Party B says "Who the hell are you guys anyway?"

Saianna

at which point Party A could say "We don't care how long you've been calling yourself that; it's incorrect and makes us look bad. Stop it."


And then the judge asks "Exactly how does it make you look bad?"
To which they respond with... "We can't say. That information is privileged. But we can prove their claims of affiliation are false." Party B cuts in with "Who are you guys again?"

Then the judge says "this is a case of trademark infringement, not slander." As to whether or not he makes a judgement on those grounds instead, or just kicks them all out of the courtroom and tells them to file their suit under the *right* category... well, that I can't say. I'm too busy trying to talk Eris out of starting another war cause there's all this partying going on and she got snubbed again.
Kaosgirl


This was, AIUI, not always the case.


What's your reference for this? While Wicca may not be my forte, early Christian history (specifically the early heresies) is.
Anarchist Miracle
If, as the wiki article says, Gardner supplemented Wicca using other occult sources, does that not make him the first culture rapist? He took rituals from other belief systems which previously were not part of Wicca, and said "This is Wicca." He admitted this himself.

And so, why can't someone else receive direct revelation from the Lord and Lady? Why is it that Gardner is the 'founder' of a religion but someone who does the exact same thing today is called a culture rapist?


I never called anyone a culture rapist, I merely answered a few of your questions. I never stated that those who derive their religion from what they THINK is Wicca are "culture rapists" just NOT WICCANS.
You know, Kaos, for a supposed Discordian you certainly like pushing your own interpretations and understandings of things as the only possible way something can be. Your understanding of slander is piss-poor in that by your restrictions on it, someone claiming to be a man's mistress cannot be slandering him, only his wife or other mistresses.

Furthermore, you've defined "credible harm" only to mean emotional distress, more or less, and you seem to have come the the erroneous conclusion that credible harm having been done must be proven, rather than the potential for harm.

User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.

I'm sorry, I just really can't get over your complete failure to understand anything in a way contrary to what you've already decided it means, and your utter hypocrisy in claiming that the clergy of the Lord and Lady have already "lost" the term Wicca to the pretenders, while simultaneously claiming and defending a singular meaning for things that allows you to challenge my words based solely on your desired interpretation - an interpretation that automatically gives you cause to claim that I don't know what I'm saying. You're an argumentum ad populum (a lot of people use the word this way so it must be the new meaning), special pleading (since my words mean only what you want them to mean), and a straw man (by using an incorrect definition for terms repeatedly to dismiss arguments) all rolled up into one!

Perhaps you should go look at the word "care" in a dictionary, all the definitions, and notice its uses as a transitive verb. Specifically, this specific definition:
Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
to be concerned about or to the extent of <don't care what they say> <doesn't care a damn>
When used as a transitive verb, this is the most common connotation according to at least the Merriam-Webster dictionary. In other words, the word "care", when used in the sense "don't care what they say", is stating that the extent (in this specific case, the widespread) of the erroneous statement is not the matter at hand because it is still erroneous. It's the metaphorical antithesis to the argumentum ad populum fallacy.

Going back to your legalistic, while erroneous, personal definition of slander, the phrase "don't care" takes on the meaning "it does not matter how long or to how many people the erroneous statement of affiliation has been stated, it does not change the fact that it is still erroneous and still reflects poorly on me". Considering the number of times I have heard criticisms of the fluffy bunnies include harsh statements about how their deities must be schizoid if they allow so much variation in belief and practice, it does reflect poorly on the deities in that outsiders believe that the gods of Wicca are meaningless entities. Does it matter if the deities that the fluffy bunnies worship and speak of, and which the critics lambast, are not the Lord and Lady of the Isles? Not a bit, because the fluffies have created a confusion and dilution of the term and the theology in the minds of outsiders to the point that all Wicca is seen as equivalent, and hence statements made within the realm of pretenders influence an outsider's view of the actual practitioners. To put it in different terms.

Let's say I write a story about the 82nd Airborne that claims that they are all trained on how to best mutilate their enemies to cause them a slow, painful death in the heat of battle, and that they hold orgy-rituals at the end of every skirmish to take in the power of those they have condemned to die painfully. In my mind, I am talking about the real 82nd Airborne. If I erroneously claim that they are part of the Navy, that makes it obvious to an outside observer that I have my facts wrong about the Airborne, but it doesn't magically mean that I believe I am talking about a different 82nd Airborne. It does not release me from responsibility for my words and claims, simply because I am discussing a group (the Navy's 82nd Airborne) that doesn't exist. I have still made a statement that is false and, intent notwithstanding, has the potential to cause substantive harm to the reputation of the group. That my story is fanciful and would not be believed outside of the most marginalized military-occult conspiracy theorists is not relevant to the fact that I have perpetrated slander against the group and all that it entails.

To be blunt, you seem to be getting your lexical understanding of English solely from your own mind, and your legal understanding from little more than part of a definition on nolo. I can back up my meanings with the categorizations and works of lexicographers, and my legal terminology with years of following cases via legal blogs whose authors are legal professionals. I think one of us has a better backing source, and I'm pretty sure it's me.

Also, maybe the next time you see a haiku in white text that contains the terminology clever ruse and old ally, you might want to think for a couple ticks and come to the realization that I'm just messing with a buddy.
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Celeblin Galadeneryn
Because he was wrong?

He based a lot of that on a piece of work by Margaret Murray, which after his death was proven to be bunk. Furthermore, he founded the religion in it's current form. If you want to believe that the New Forest Coven existed, of which there is little proof, then he took what he learned from them, and turned it into Wicca. If the New Forest Coven didn't exist, then it's straight from the Lord and Lady to him, and he just managed to get very confused in the process.

And so, why can't someone else receive direct revelation from the Lord and Lady?
They can. It's one of the ways to get initiated, via the gods themselves. Generally, anyone who claims this about Wicca should then know closed information without being taught.

Quote:
Why is it that Gardner is the 'founder' of a religion but someone who does the exact same thing today is called a culture rapist?
What are you talking about? Someone who claims to have direct contact with the Lord and Lady, yet asserts that Wicca can be open? Easy, because they are.

If you you told me that Athena was talking to you and telling you that the proper way to worship her was to go out and have lots of sex, most people would have to agree on what s**t that is. It's the same with these two deities, who have ever before declared that they will only accept the worship of a closed clergy. Wicca has the added benefit of being closed, so if the Lord and Lady HAVE initiated you individualy, there are somethings you going to know.
Bacodus
Anarchist Miracle
If, as the wiki article says, Gardner supplemented Wicca using other occult sources, does that not make him the first culture rapist? He took rituals from other belief systems which previously were not part of Wicca, and said "This is Wicca." He admitted this himself.

And so, why can't someone else receive direct revelation from the Lord and Lady? Why is it that Gardner is the 'founder' of a religion but someone who does the exact same thing today is called a culture rapist?


I never called anyone a culture rapist, I merely answered a few of your questions. I never stated that those who derive their religion from what they THINK is Wicca are "culture rapists" just NOT WICCANS.

I wasn't saying you did. What makes them any less Wiccan than Gardner was?
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Bacodus
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If, as the wiki article says, Gardner supplemented Wicca using other occult sources, does that not make him the first culture rapist? He took rituals from other belief systems which previously were not part of Wicca, and said "This is Wicca." He admitted this himself.

And so, why can't someone else receive direct revelation from the Lord and Lady? Why is it that Gardner is the 'founder' of a religion but someone who does the exact same thing today is called a culture rapist?


I never called anyone a culture rapist, I merely answered a few of your questions. I never stated that those who derive their religion from what they THINK is Wicca are "culture rapists" just NOT WICCANS.

I wasn't saying you did. What makes them any less Wiccan than Gardner was?
Because They don't know the Wiccan Mysteries?

I mean, it's entirely plausible that the Lord and Lady are trying to set up another cult to themselves, other gods were worshipped in such ways, but if they are going to go to the trouble of initiating people into Gardner's tradition, you'd think they'd give them the required information.

And if the Lord and Lady are trying to set up a seperate cult through these people, then it still isn't Wicca.
Celeblin Galadeneryn
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And so, why can't someone else receive direct revelation from the Lord and Lady?
They can. It's one of the ways to get initiated, via the gods themselves. Generally, anyone who claims this about Wicca should then know closed information without being taught.

According to Gardnerian Wicca. How do you know that's true, what with deities being nonfalsifiable and all?

Quote:
Quote:
Why is it that Gardner is the 'founder' of a religion but someone who does the exact same thing today is called a culture rapist?
What are you talking about? Someone who claims to have direct contact with the Lord and Lady, yet asserts that Wicca can be open? Easy, because they are.

If you you told me that Athena was talking to you and telling you that the proper way to worship her was to go out and have lots of sex, most people would have to agree on what s**t that is. It's the same with these two deities, who have ever before declared that they will only accept the worship of a closed clergy. Wicca has the added benefit of being closed, so if the Lord and Lady HAVE initiated you individualy, there are somethings you going to know.

This sounds like an appeal to popularity, i.e. something can only be true if a bunch of people agree that it is.
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Celeblin Galadeneryn
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And so, why can't someone else receive direct revelation from the Lord and Lady?
They can. It's one of the ways to get initiated, via the gods themselves. Generally, anyone who claims this about Wicca should then know closed information without being taught.

According to Gardnerian Wicca. How do you know that's true, what with deities being nonfalsifiable and all?
Because we can only believe what the god tells us. It's not a perfect science by any means

Quote:
Quote:
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Why is it that Gardner is the 'founder' of a religion but someone who does the exact same thing today is called a culture rapist?
What are you talking about? Someone who claims to have direct contact with the Lord and Lady, yet asserts that Wicca can be open? Easy, because they are.

If you you told me that Athena was talking to you and telling you that the proper way to worship her was to go out and have lots of sex, most people would have to agree on what s**t that is. It's the same with these two deities, who have ever before declared that they will only accept the worship of a closed clergy. Wicca has the added benefit of being closed, so if the Lord and Lady HAVE initiated you individualy, there are somethings you going to know.

This sounds like an appeal to popularity, i.e. something can only be true if a bunch of people agree that it is.
I know what argumentum ad populum is, and it's far closer to argument from authority. However, when it comes to Athena, all we have to go on is what a bunch of Greeks said. When it comes to the Lord and Lady, all we have to go on is what Gardner and his predecessors said. But given that Wicca, that being the term, the corresponding religion, the way it is practiced, and the establishment thereof originates from Gardner, then still something given from the Lord and Lady to someone else which differs is ultimately something else. Just because you worship Demeter in various festivals doesn't make you an initiate of the Eleusinian Mysteries.
Celeblin Galadeneryn
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Celeblin Galadeneryn
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And so, why can't someone else receive direct revelation from the Lord and Lady?
They can. It's one of the ways to get initiated, via the gods themselves. Generally, anyone who claims this about Wicca should then know closed information without being taught.

According to Gardnerian Wicca. How do you know that's true, what with deities being nonfalsifiable and all?
Because we can only believe what the god tells us. It's not a perfect science by any means

No. What makes them unWiccan for believing what their god tells them about Wicca?

Quote:
Quote:
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Why is it that Gardner is the 'founder' of a religion but someone who does the exact same thing today is called a culture rapist?
What are you talking about? Someone who claims to have direct contact with the Lord and Lady, yet asserts that Wicca can be open? Easy, because they are.

If you you told me that Athena was talking to you and telling you that the proper way to worship her was to go out and have lots of sex, most people would have to agree on what s**t that is. It's the same with these two deities, who have ever before declared that they will only accept the worship of a closed clergy. Wicca has the added benefit of being closed, so if the Lord and Lady HAVE initiated you individualy, there are somethings you going to know.

This sounds like an appeal to popularity, i.e. something can only be true if a bunch of people agree that it is.
I know what argumentum ad populum is, and it's far closer to argument from authority. However, when it comes to Athena, all we have to go on is what a bunch of Greeks said. When it comes to the Lord and Lady, all we have to go on is what Gardner and his predecessors said. But given that Wicca, that being the term, the corresponding religion, the way it is practiced, and the establishment thereof originates from Gardner, then still something given from the Lord and Lady to someone else which differs is ultimately something else. Just because you worship Demeter in various festivals doesn't make you an initiate of the Eleusinian Mysteries.
But it would make you a Hellenic pagan. It would make you a follower of Demeter. Similarly, following a non-Gardnerian tradition does not make you Gardnerian. But since Gardner did not invent the term "Wicca" nor claim any sort of personal trademark on it I don't see why someone can't call themselves Wiccan.
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And so, why can't someone else receive direct revelation from the Lord and Lady?
They can. It's one of the ways to get initiated, via the gods themselves. Generally, anyone who claims this about Wicca should then know closed information without being taught.

According to Gardnerian Wicca. How do you know that's true, what with deities being nonfalsifiable and all?
Because we can only believe what the god tells us. It's not a perfect science by any means

No. What makes them unWiccan for believing what their god tells them about Wicca?
Your god can tell you all you want about Wicca, that doesn't make you part of it.

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But it would make you a Hellenic pagan. It would make you a follower of Demeter. Similarly, following a non-Gardnerian tradition does not make you Gardnerian. But since Gardner did not invent the term "Wicca" nor claim any sort of personal trademark on it I don't see why someone can't call themselves Wiccan.
Congradulations, you're a Hellenic Pagan. And? Still not an initiate of the Eleusinian Mysteries, a closed religious tradition. Kind of like what Wicca is. Comparing it to Hellenic Paganism, the vast majority of which is open, not the most accurate thing to do.

And he did invent the term Wicca as we know and use it today. Did he adopt the word? Sure, but it didn't mean "The religion devoted to the Lord and Lady of the Isles."
Celeblin Galadeneryn
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Celeblin Galadeneryn
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Celeblin Galadeneryn
They can. It's one of the ways to get initiated, via the gods themselves. Generally, anyone who claims this about Wicca should then know closed information without being taught.

According to Gardnerian Wicca. How do you know that's true, what with deities being nonfalsifiable and all?
Because we can only believe what the god tells us. It's not a perfect science by any means

No. What makes them unWiccan for believing what their god tells them about Wicca?
Your god can tell you all you want about Wicca, that doesn't make you part of it.

Even if my god is the Lord of the Isles?

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But it would make you a Hellenic pagan. It would make you a follower of Demeter. Similarly, following a non-Gardnerian tradition does not make you Gardnerian. But since Gardner did not invent the term "Wicca" nor claim any sort of personal trademark on it I don't see why someone can't call themselves Wiccan.
Congradulations, you're a Hellenic Pagan. And? Still not an initiate of the Eleusinian Mysteries, a closed religious tradition. Kind of like what Wicca is. Comparing it to Hellenic Paganism, the vast majority of which is open, not the most accurate thing to do.

And he did invent the term Wicca as we know and use it today.

A lot of people know it and use it as something other than he intended.
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Did he adopt the word? Sure, but it didn't mean "The religion devoted to the Lord and Lady of the Isles."

I'm sure there are non-Gardnerian traditions that would fit that definiton. And even so, why can't someone else adopt the same word for a different purpose?

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