Wiccan FAQ - ?????? PROFIT

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STEP 1: CALL YOURSELF WICCAN	11.7%	[ 259 ]
STEP 2: BUY STRANGE CLOTHES	6.3%	[ 139 ]
STEP 3: WHINE ABOUT HOW OPPRESSED YOU ARE	10.7%	[ 237 ]
STEP 4: ????????	37.7%	[ 836 ]
STEP 5: PROFIT!	33.6%	[ 744 ]
Total Votes:			[ 2215 ]

[CuAnnan]

Faeryselene

Do you really think that the covens who are supposedly "true" Wiccans can really be stemmed back to Gardener himself?

All of them.

Faeryselene

How many of them accurately do so?

All of them.

Faeryselene

Are you going to tell me there's some crazy underground Wiccan council that governs these things?

No. However, wicca is sufficiently young that person a claiming to be wiccan can be backed up by person b.

Faeryselene

Did Gardener not borrow the word "wicca" from a much older version of the word meaning witch?

Yes, an anglo saxon word.
If you practice anglo saxon witchcraft, you can use the word.
If you practice Gardner's religion, you can use the word.
Otherwise you have no argument.

Faeryselene

Do you really think that all religions remained the same since day one?

Yes.

Faeryselene

I highly doubt that. When we look at a religion, I think we look more at what characterizes it, not who made it, not the way it was it first started.

How the ******** do you know what Wicca characterises?

[scorplett]

Quote:

From what I've seen, proper initiation is from male->female or female->male. If this isn't correct, stop me now. The FAQ touched on homosexuals, maintaining this pattern...

I'm transgendered. Not quite the same thing... this leads to two questions.
1) It is noted that the bulk of covens are not homophobic (though some are.) Does this also apply to transphobia?
2) As a male-to-female transgendered person, would I - to be properly initiated - need to seek out a male or female mentor? Would this change depending on whether I was pre-op or post-op? If I was initiated before transitioning by someone who's gender was the opposite of my birth-sex, would the act of transition 'nullify' my initiation?

The answers to these sort of questions are always individual to each group as every coven is autonomous provided it is led by a Third Degree HPS and HP.

Coven leaders are human and like all humans are capable and entitled to form and hold viewpoints and perspectives on many things. Some may not understand homosexuallity let alone gender disphoria. Others may have a better understanding of such personal matters. Answering the question of homophobia and transphobia in covens is therefore impossible.

There are many varied issues regarding successful initiation, regardless of gender status. All the same things must be considered. Possibly the greatest of these is proper personhood. If someone is in a gender transition process they are already in transition. This could well be (although it's always case by case) be a big factor in proper personhood. It's generally considered a bad idea to initiate someone who is in a major transition in their lives. Adding upheaval where there is already upheaval just isnt good for the mind!

As for weather a female or male mentor is appropriate, this would depend on the individual group. Fertillity is not just about what genetailia you happen to have. There are things that a gender reassignment will never change. Therefore, it would be dependant on the individual working those matters out with their prospective coven. It may well be the case that training is provided by the whole coven or by a number of members.

If initiated before gender reassignment, the fact of being initiated by a woman when you were a man would not invalidate your initiation. It may cause someone to have to do a lot of explaining somewhere down the line though.

[scorplett]

Faeryselene

Who was the first Wiccan initiated by, then?

Dafo

Faeryselene

Do you really think that the covens who are supposedly "true" Wiccans can really be stemmed back to Gardener himself?

Yes. As all Wiccan's have initiatory lineage through cross gendered apostolic succession, all Wiccan's can trace their initiatory line to Gardner.

Faeryselene

How many of them accurately do so?

All Wiccan's can.. Those who cannot are not Wiccan.

Faeryselene

Are you going to tell me there's some crazy underground Wiccan council that governs these things? rolleyes

In America, yes there is. Elsewhere we tend to look after those things amongst ourselves... We have our ways for such things.

Faeryselene

Did Gardener not borrow the word "wicca" from a much older version of the word meaning witch?

Yes and No... The word had officially become a dead word and was no longer in use. It had also never before been used to describe a witchcult.

Faeryselene

Do you really think that all religions remained the same since day one? I highly doubt that.

Some do, some don't. Wiccan's swear an oath to keep the core as is given to them. Therefore the core of Wicca never changes. Can't say the same for all religions, but that's how it is for Wicca.

[milila]

what is the deal with wicca any way? I looked into it about a month ago and it seems like such an unstable religion that doesn't pay any homage to it ancestry. I mean wiccan's look up to people like Alister Crowley (who was a really scary and twisted man by all accounts) and there seem to be no real set guild lines except A Witch's 10 Commandments:(this seems to be a common guild from other books and articles I have read), which doesn't really tell me much. I really don't want to look down on this religion, so I want to ask some one who has more knowledge on this subject then I obviously have. dramallama (I like llamas sweatdrop )

[CuAnnan]

milila

what is the deal with wicca any way? I looked into it about a month ago and it seems like such an unstable religion that doesn't pay any homage to it ancestry. I mean wiccan's look up to people like Alister Crowley (who was a really scary and twisted man by all accounts) and there seem to be no real set guild lines except A Witch's 10 Commandments:(this seems to be a common guild from other books and articles I have read), which doesn't really tell me much. I really don't want to look down on this religion, so I want to ask some one who has more knowledge on this subject then I obviously have. dramallama (I like llamas sweatdrop )

Aleister Crowley had no official connection to Wicca.
Wiccans don't have 10 commandments, they have 161 Ardanes.
You can't reasonably look down on a religion you know nothing about.
And you know nothing about Wicca.
You have, however, made yourself look incredibly incredibly ignorant

[milila]

Cuchullain

milila

what is the deal with wicca any way? I looked into it about a month ago and it seems like such an unstable religion that doesn't pay any homage to it ancestry. I mean wiccan's look up to people like Alister Crowley (who was a really scary and twisted man by all accounts) and there seem to be no real set guild lines except A Witch's 10 Commandments:(this seems to be a common guild from other books and articles I have read), which doesn't really tell me much. I really don't want to look down on this religion, so I want to ask some one who has more knowledge on this subject then I obviously have. dramallama (I like llamas sweatdrop )

Aleister Crowley had no official connection to Wicca.
Wiccans don't have 10 commandments, they have 161 Ardanes.
You can't reasonably look down on a religion you know nothing about.
And you know nothing about Wicca.
You have, however, made yourself look incredibly incredibly ignorant

As far as I am aware Alister Crowley is actually considered the father of modern wicca. Secondly every peace of info I have given you has come from books published by Wiccans(I spent 75 dollars on only three books that apparently lied to me), so if my info is wrong it is because there is no reliable sources to learn this stuff from thirdly, I came to this forum so you could explain the religion a little better to me because obviously I don't know much about it.

[CuAnnan]

milila

As far as I am aware Alister Crowley is actually considered the father of modern wicca.

Stop arguing.
You're wrong.
Gerald Gardner is universally accepted by all Wiccans as the creator of Wicca.

milila

Secondly every peace of info I have given you has come from books published by Wiccans(I spent 75 dollars on only three books that apparently lied to me),

It's 'put up or shut up' time:
What Wiccans?

milila

so if my info is wrong it is because there is no reliable sources to learn this stuff from

It is a fairly well known fact that you can't learn about an initiatory, oathbound, orthopraxic, fertility, priesthood, mystery witchcult from books.

milila

thirdly, I came to this forum so you could explain the religion a little better to me because obviously I don't know much about it.

Funny, for a person claiming to want to learn, you're arguing over stuff that's well known to be wrong.
If you earnestly want to learn
a) Stop arguing, because it just predisposes people to hating you
b) join the amber and jet mailing list
If you want to learn out of curiosity, don't bother.

[maenad nuri]

milila

Cuchullain

milila

what is the deal with wicca any way? I looked into it about a month ago and it seems like such an unstable religion that doesn't pay any homage to it ancestry. I mean wiccan's look up to people like Alister Crowley (who was a really scary and twisted man by all accounts) and there seem to be no real set guild lines except A Witch's 10 Commandments:(this seems to be a common guild from other books and articles I have read), which doesn't really tell me much. I really don't want to look down on this religion, so I want to ask some one who has more knowledge on this subject then I obviously have. dramallama (I like llamas sweatdrop )

Aleister Crowley had no official connection to Wicca.
Wiccans don't have 10 commandments, they have 161 Ardanes.
You can't reasonably look down on a religion you know nothing about.
And you know nothing about Wicca.
You have, however, made yourself look incredibly incredibly ignorant

As far as I am aware Alister Crowley is actually considered the father of modern wicca. Secondly every peace of info I have given you has come from books published by Wiccans(I spent 75 dollars on only three books that apparently lied to me), so if my info is wrong it is because there is no reliable sources to learn this stuff from thirdly, I came to this forum so you could explain the religion a little better to me because obviously I don't know much about it.

Then yeah, your three books were wrong. Gardner is the father of Wicca. He was influenced by Crowley.

If you want history, really, read Ronald Hutton's Triumph of the Moon. It's really a fantastic history of both Wicca and the Modern Witchcraft movement.

[milila]

Cuchullain

milila

As far as I am aware Alister Crowley is actually considered the father of modern wicca.

Stop arguing.
You're wrong.
Gerald Gardner is universally accepted by all Wiccans as the creator of Wicca.

milila

Secondly every peace of info I have given you has come from books published by Wiccans(I spent 75 dollars on only three books that apparently lied to me),

It's 'put up or shut up' time:
What Wiccans?

milila

so if my info is wrong it is because there is no reliable sources to learn this stuff from

It is a fairly well known fact that you can't learn about an initiatory, oathbound, orthopraxic, fertility, priesthood, mystery witchcult from books.

milila

thirdly, I came to this forum so you could explain the religion a little better to me because obviously I don't know much about it.

Funny, for a person claiming to want to learn, you're arguing over stuff that's well known to be wrong.
If you earnestly want to learn
a) Stop arguing, because it just predisposes people to hating you
b) join the amber and jet mailing list
If you want to learn out of curiosity, don't bother.

members of Wicca need to get together and improve their PR because unlike major religions, what may seem well known to you is not well known to rest of the world. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being curious about any religion, and I love learn about pagan religions because their interesting and very rich with history, but every thing I have found on this particular religion is contradictory and flimsy at best. I didn't put down 75 dollars to be as clueless now as I was a month ago, but apperently I still am. I am sorry if I offended you but I just want some solid answers and if you aren't going to give them to me then I have to go with the info I have for now. Chances are in the end I won't join your religion and it wasn't for lack of trying but it was for lack of understanding.
When I write I using examples for all walks of life but as much as I want to, I can never use modern paganism because of the fact that information is so scares. I type wicca into Google and I get a bunch of makeshift websites that I don't even know if I can trust. If I can't get my answers here then bob only knows where I can find any truth about this religion. I would say this religion has some organization problems, but nothing that can't be fixed with communication. When you get it together let me know so I can learn more about a potentially beautiful religion. Sorry for being miss informed I can only tell you what I know. Sorry If I offended you it wasn't my intention. cool cool cool

[milila]

Nuri

milila

Cuchullain

milila

what is the deal with wicca any way? I looked into it about a month ago and it seems like such an unstable religion that doesn't pay any homage to it ancestry. I mean wiccan's look up to people like Alister Crowley (who was a really scary and twisted man by all accounts) and there seem to be no real set guild lines except A Witch's 10 Commandments:(this seems to be a common guild from other books and articles I have read), which doesn't really tell me much. I really don't want to look down on this religion, so I want to ask some one who has more knowledge on this subject then I obviously have. dramallama (I like llamas sweatdrop )

Aleister Crowley had no official connection to Wicca.
Wiccans don't have 10 commandments, they have 161 Ardanes.
You can't reasonably look down on a religion you know nothing about.
And you know nothing about Wicca.
You have, however, made yourself look incredibly incredibly ignorant

As far as I am aware Alister Crowley is actually considered the father of modern wicca. Secondly every peace of info I have given you has come from books published by Wiccans(I spent 75 dollars on only three books that apparently lied to me), so if my info is wrong it is because there is no reliable sources to learn this stuff from thirdly, I came to this forum so you could explain the religion a little better to me because obviously I don't know much about it.

Then yeah, your three books were wrong. Gardner is the father of Wicca. He was influenced by Crowley.

If you want history, really, read Ronald Hutton's Triumph of the Moon. It's really a fantastic history of both Wicca and the Modern Witchcraft movement.

Thank you ^^

[CuAnnan]

milila

members of Wicca need to get together and improve their PR because unlike major religions, what may seem well known to you is not well known to rest of the world.

Most Wiccans are happy about this.
It means only the truly earnest get to their ranks.
Nowhere better to hide than in plain sight.

milila

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being curious about any religion, and I love learn about pagan religions because their interesting and very rich with history, but every thing I have found on this particular religion is contradictory and flimsy at best.

Wicca is a mystery religion.
You won't ever be able to have anything more than a superficial understanding of it without going through the initiation.

milila

I didn't put down 75 dollars to be as clueless now as I was a month ago, but apperently I still am.

There's a list of books posted by Scorplett. Look it up. Those books are worth reading.

milila

Chances are in the end I won't join your religion and it wasn't for lack of trying but it was for lack of understanding.

I'm not Wiccan.
You can't join my religion. You're not elligible.

milila

I would say this religion has some organization problems, but nothing that can't be fixed with communication.

Mystery religion.
They don't want it fixed.

[milila]

okay so to understand wicca I have to be initiated into to it, but I am uncomfortable joining a religion I don't fully understand, as is the case of many people. Any way shouldn't a religion want to make themselves known, I mean they are proclaiming to have the ultimate truth in some manner, why hide? BTW thanks for the book list, and I wasn't implying to fix your religion, just organize it.

[CuAnnan]

milila

Any shouldn't a religion want to make themselves known

Why for?

milila

I mean they are proclaiming to have the ultimate truth in some manner

No, they are claiming to have a path.

milila

why hide?

Why not?

[milila]

Cuchullain

milila

Any shouldn't a religion want to make themselves known

Why for?

milila

I mean they are proclaiming to have the ultimate truth in some manner

No, they are claiming to have a path.

milila

why hide?

Why not?

A religion should want to enlighten people to their beliefs, you are claiming to the the path or a truth of some sort. There is no real reason to hide any religion. In fact there is more reason to make it public then to keep it hidden? so really awnser my question why hide?

[Anarchist Miracle]

Cuchullain

milila

Any shouldn't a religion want to make themselves known

Why for?

So they won't have legions of fluffies who call themselves Wiccan but know nothing about it?