Wiccan FAQ - ?????? PROFIT

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STEP 1: CALL YOURSELF WICCAN	11.7%	[ 259 ]
STEP 2: BUY STRANGE CLOTHES	6.3%	[ 139 ]
STEP 3: WHINE ABOUT HOW OPPRESSED YOU ARE	10.7%	[ 237 ]
STEP 4: ????????	37.7%	[ 836 ]
STEP 5: PROFIT!	33.6%	[ 744 ]
Total Votes:			[ 2215 ]

[Henry Dorsett Case]

AspenGrey

Now, I'm not saying that what some people claim as Wicca is in fact Wicca, but, excluding everything but a very narrow portion is pretty damn elitist, as well as missing both the spirit and the intent of the thing.

What exactly would you say is the "spirit and the intent" of Wicca? I'd say Gardner's work lays it out pretty clearly that the spirit and the intent was to worship the Lord and Lady of the Isles in an initiatory mystery cult with a pattern of lineage, male to female and female to male, that keeps the theology and practice of the religion intact. Only someone selectively ignoring parts of Gardner's work or the work of other founders and shapers of the Craft could argue otherwise. It's far more accurate to say that any religion that doesn't keep to this concept while claiming the name Wicca is the one missing the spirit and intent of the religion. As scorplett pointed out before me, you're getting hung up on the concept of "better than", with no apparent reason other than to point fingers and claim elitism. Let me give you an analogy.

There is a spring that flows from the top of Mount W that contains Mineral M. Water bottled at the source of this spring is undeniably W Mountain Spring Water. That spring branches off further down the mountain, but those branches flow from the same spring and still contain Mineral M, and they are still W Mountain Spring Water. A few of those springs have other tributaries, but they still carry W Mountain Spring Water and Mineral M, and hence are still W Mountain Spring Water. One of the branches eventually takes in so many tributaries and passes through so many piles of silt that there is no longer any W Mountain Spring Water or Mineral M left in them. They no longer contain what makes W Mountain Spring Water be W Mountain Spring Water, and hence there is no reason to call them W Mountain Spring Water. If someone drinks from W Mountain Spring, when they flush the resulting urine into the sewer, they're not flushing down W Mountain Spring Water. The sewer does not become a branch of W Mountain Spring. Furthermore, the Spring that starts on C Mountain next door, that never touches W Mountain Spring and in fact pulls from an entirely different Artesian Well, is not W Mountain Spring and the water that comes from it is not W Mountain Spring Water. Water that comes from S Aquifer, but is infused with artificially-created Mineral M, isn't W Mountain Spring Water either.

Now, to break the analogy apart:

• W Mountain is the Lord and Lady of the Isles, and their people, the Wica. These are the source of all that can be rightfully called Wicca.
• Mineral M is the Mysteries of the Lord and Lady. The Mysteries are part of what make Wicca the religion it is.
• W Mountain Spring Water is the religion, Wicca.
• The tributaries are the other religions or groups that have influenced the various Wiccan Traditions.
• The branch that has taken in so many tributaries and been filtered so much as to no longer contain the water or the mineral is the heterodoxy of many former lineaged Wiccans, those that have replaced the core practice of the religion with the concept that "An it harm none, do what thou wilt" means that Wicca is 100% eclectic and has no core theology or practice.
• The flushed waste is the spoken heterodoxy of current practicing Wiccans; just because someone's in a proper lineaged coven doesn't mean they're incapable of speaking incorrectly or even lying about the religion. If a lineaged Wiccan is speaking about something that is not outer-court knowledge, they are either breaking their oaths or lying.
• C Mountain is the various groups like the Corellian Trad that are founded by people who were never Wiccan and have no relation to Wicca outside of being a system of religious witchcraft.
• S Aquifer is groups like the Serpent Stone family that created their own system of religious witchcraft and were influenced in some way by Wicca, including attempting to appropriate the mysteries or practice thereof.

Now, you state that in the BoS that there's nothing that states that one must be initiated to be Wiccan. So I suppose the fact that until the First Degree Initiation ritual is complete, a person is not declared a Priest(ess) of the Lord and Lady of the Isles isn't an indication thereof? Also, you say you won't cite the Old Laws even though they're included in the GBoS you linked to and the BoS available on Janet Farrar's site...why? Because Doreen Valiente said they're bad? Oh, hey, Doreen was all about the initiation, too! Check out her "Proposed Rules" on this page.

Quote:

1. No member of the Craft will initiate any person unless that person has been interviewed by at least two Elders and accepted as suitable.
2. No affairs of the Craft will be discussed by members in the presence of uninitiated persons, or in places where conversation is likely to be overheard.
12.All members will receive a copy of these rules, and all new members will be given a copy of these rules upon initiation. New members, prior to initiation, will read these rules and declare upon their honour that they will abide by them in letter and in spirit. This declaration will be made to the Elders in writing, and signed.

Three of her Proposed Rules specifically mention initiation, and in 11 of the 13 she specifically mentions "members". Rule 12 implies rather strongly that Ms. Valiente believed that only those who were initiated were members of the Craft. Oh my; it seems that Doreen's refutation of the Old Laws may not be as much of one as you think it is!

While we're at it, the NWC article you did cite has some rather damning semantics in the wording of the following:

Quote:

Q: What is the difference between BTW and other people who call themselves Wiccan?

A: Other people who call themselves Wicca do not have the initiatory lineage mentioned above. In addition, the following features of BTW may not all be present in other paths which call themselves Wiccan:

Hm. Note there that the phrasing never changes from "other X that call themselves Wicca(n)". Why might you think that is? Semantics is a very fun little subject here; that phrasing implicitly states that paths that do not follow the initiatory lineage that BTW shares only "call themselves" Wiccan. They never state "other Wiccan paths". I wonder if there's another reference on that page that's more explicit. Oh, wait, here it is, two sentences above the one you quoted!

Quote:

In terms of the modern Craft, before the 1960s only the British Traditional Wicca used this name, and we still believe that it only properly belongs to us.

Funny, that. You appear to be bordering on cherry-picking at best and prooftexting at worst. You might want to watch that; some of us do, in fact, read sources too and find the things you didn't quote. Sometimes they say more than what you did quote.

Also, you make the grandiose statement that as long as a solitary Wiccan can be Wiccan as long as they're following the core components of Wicca. Which core components qualify them as Wiccan to you, and which can be tossed along the wayside...you know, things like initiation, actually knowing which deities they're worshiping, stuff like that? It's kind of...off-putting that you cite Wikipedia and Wicca for the Rest of Us as authorities, ignore parts of the NWC site that disagree with your claims, and then poo-poo whatever of Gardner's works doesn't fit with what you think.

[CuAnnan]

Henry Dorsett Case

There is a spring that flows from the top of Mount W that contains Mineral M. Water bottled at the source of this spring is undeniably W Mountain Spring Water. That spring branches off further down the mountain, but those branches flow from the same spring and still contain Mineral M, and they are still W Mountain Spring Water. A few of those springs have other tributaries, but they still carry W Mountain Spring Water and Mineral M, and hence are still W Mountain Spring Water. One of the branches eventually takes in so many tributaries and passes through so many piles of silt that there is no longer any W Mountain Spring Water or Mineral M left in them. They no longer contain what makes W Mountain Spring Water be W Mountain Spring Water, and hence there is no reason to call them W Mountain Spring Water. If someone drinks from W Mountain Spring, when they flush the resulting urine into the sewer, they're not flushing down W Mountain Spring Water. The sewer does not become a branch of W Mountain Spring. Furthermore, the Spring that starts on C Mountain next door, that never touches W Mountain Spring and in fact pulls from an entirely different Artesian Well, is not W Mountain Spring and the water that comes from it is not W Mountain Spring Water. Water that comes from S Aquifer, but is infused with artificially-created Mineral M, isn't W Mountain Spring Water either.

Now, to break the analogy apart:

• W Mountain is the Lord and Lady of the Isles, and their people, the Wica. These are the source of all that can be rightfully called Wicca.
• Mineral M is the Mysteries of the Lord and Lady. The Mysteries are part of what make Wicca the religion it is.
• W Mountain Spring Water is the religion, Wicca.
• The tributaries are the other religions or groups that have influenced the various Wiccan Traditions.
• The branch that has taken in so many tributaries and been filtered so much as to no longer contain the water or the mineral is the heterodoxy of many former lineaged Wiccans, those that have replaced the core practice of the religion with the concept that "An it harm none, do what thou wilt" means that Wicca is 100% eclectic and has no core theology or practice.
• The flushed waste is the spoken heterodoxy of current practicing Wiccans; just because someone's in a proper lineaged coven doesn't mean they're incapable of speaking incorrectly or even lying about the religion. If a lineaged Wiccan is speaking about something that is not outer-court knowledge, they are either breaking their oaths or lying.
• C Mountain is the various groups like the Corellian Trad that are founded by people who were never Wiccan and have no relation to Wicca outside of being a system of religious witchcraft.
• S Aquifer is groups like the Serpent Stone family that created their own system of religious witchcraft and were influenced in some way by Wicca, including attempting to appropriate the mysteries or practice thereof.

*reads*
*re-reads*
*gets it*
Good analogy.

[TeaDidikai]

Quote:

In his books, Gerald Gardner used the one 'c' form, Wica, to describe the people involved in the tradition of Witchcraft that he was initiated into. If you check out the newspaper articles on my Gerald Gardner page, you will see him continuing to use the one 'c' spelling in interviews that he gave throughout the 1950s. Similarly, Charles Clark insisted on using Wica and considered the two 'c' form Wicca to be connected with the members of another tradition, associated with the magician and conjurer Charles Cardell, who was linked to hostilities against Gardner.

[cite]

Apparently Doreen confirmed with Dafo that while these were not of Gardner's tradition, there were similarities, and did so under the spelling of Wiccen.

[cite]

Is it possible that non-lineaged ditheistic Witchcults have a valid claim to the title of Wiccen?

[Merzilla]

I must say, this made me happy to see. I don't know much about Wicca but I do know that the friends of mine who claim to practice it do it impropperly and it's nice to see someone who does in fact know what they speak of. I'm impressed that you know of the Golden Dawn. Have you had a chance to read any of it?

[ShadowSharrow]

TeaDidikai

Quote:

In his books, Gerald Gardner used the one 'c' form, Wica, to describe the people involved in the tradition of Witchcraft that he was initiated into. If you check out the newspaper articles on my Gerald Gardner page, you will see him continuing to use the one 'c' spelling in interviews that he gave throughout the 1950s. Similarly, Charles Clark insisted on using Wica and considered the two 'c' form Wicca to be connected with the members of another tradition, associated with the magician and conjurer Charles Cardell, who was linked to hostilities against Gardner.

[cite]

Apparently Doreen confirmed with Dafo that while these were not of Gardner's tradition, there were similarities, and did so under the spelling of Wiccen.

[cite]

Is it possible that non-lineaged ditheistic Witchcults have a valid claim to the title of Wiccen?

Doreen was far impressed with the coven of Atho as can been seen in those articles.

Quote:

A short while later Cardell invited Doreen to visit him at his consulting rooms in London. She described them thus; ‘They were quite splendidly appointed as a sort of private temple; but when Cardell showed me a bronze tripod which was obviously nineteenth century and tried to tell me that it had been dug up from the ruins of Pompeii, I became rather unhappy. When he showed me a bronze statue of Thor and tried to tell me that it was of a Celtic horned god. I couldn’t help myself pointing out that Thor was not a Celtic god - and then he became rather unhappy.’

A gorilla and an orangutan may be similar but that does not mean gorilla = orangutan.

[TeaDidikai]

ShadowSharrow

A gorilla and an orangutan may be similar but that does not mean gorilla = orangutan.

Not saying they are. However- if those sites are correct, people claiming a different spelling may have legit entitlement since Dafo saying they were not of the Wica is not the same as her saying they have no entitlement to the title their founder generated.

[Lila Malvae]

Decent conclusion with the metaphor, but I digress...
What of evolution?
True, they are different species, but if they are related closely in taxonomic rank, aren't they listed as belonging to the same group?

[Atho]

Sorry. Got to go.

[Boxy]

Wait, Atho - did you just use not one but two analogies intermittently to describe the genealogical and ritualistic similarities between several groups? Gorillas + newspapers + top hats = capitalist nonsense crying

[KairiWillSwantonYou]

thanks for the info. ^^

[Kaosgirl]

AspenGrey

ShadowSharrow

AspenGrey

Most covens are willing to give you quite a bit of information, there are also choices such as the BTW site and others.

Despite your point that many Gaians are Alexandrian, you still cite almost solely Gardnerian sources, which indicates a bias towards that path- whether intentional or not, it's still there.

You do understand that while Alexandrians trace their lineage back to Alex Sanders, Alex Sanders had lineage back to Gardner, right ?

Yes, but other's don't, necessarily, take Central Valley Wicca- while it bears a lot in common due to their nature it's pretty much impossible to say what source they originally traced from.

Ugh. This is almost as bad as watching OTO branches squabble about lineage and validity.

Anyway, I have a few question - and I hope my admitted biases against initiatory traditions doesn't influence any of the answers I may or may not get.

(Also hope these or similar weren't asked at some point in the middle of this...)

Let's pretend I wanted to be a proper wiccan. Let's further pretend I've done the research to pick up on what a potential initiate should be aware of beforehand (I know, a tough one considering the question I'm about to ask, but if we can pretend that asking the questions is part of the research...)

From what I've seen, proper initiation is from male->female or female->male. If this isn't correct, stop me now. The FAQ touched on homosexuals, maintaining this pattern...

I'm transgendered. Not quite the same thing... this leads to two questions.
1) It is noted that the bulk of covens are not homophobic (though some are.) Does this also apply to transphobia?
2) As a male-to-female transgendered person, would I - to be properly initiated - need to seek out a male or female mentor? Would this change depending on whether I was pre-op or post-op? If I was initiated before transitioning by someone who's gender was the opposite of my birth-sex, would the act of transition 'nullify' my initiation?

[Labores Luna]

Who was the first Wiccan initiated by, then?

Do you really think that the covens who are supposedly "true" Wiccans can really be stemmed back to Gardener himself? How many of them accurately do so? Are you going to tell me there's some crazy underground Wiccan council that governs these things? rolleyes

Did Gardener not borrow the word "wicca" from a much older version of the word meaning witch?

Do you really think that all religions remained the same since day one? I highly doubt that. When we look at a religion, I think we look more at what characterizes it, not who made it, not the way it was it first started.
Many religions have different sects and branches and if you're in one, it seems to people that the other must be wrong or of not the same religion.
Even though they're close in origin and even in spirit...(excluding fluff)
ignorance remains on all sides.

[maenad nuri]

Faeryselene

Who was the first Wiccan initiated by, then?

Well, Gardner was initated into other a different witch cult, and then formed Wicca.

Quote:

Do you really think that the covens who are supposedly "true" Wiccans can really be stemmed back to Gardener himself?

Pretty much, yeah. It hasn't been that long, really.

Quote:

How many of them accurately do so? Are you going to tell me there's some crazy underground Wiccan council that governs these things? rolleyes

Of the "true" wiccans, all of them. It's largely self-governed and between Wiccans, they talk amongst themselve.

Quote:

Did Gardener not borrow the word "wicca" from a much older version of the word meaning witch?

Yes, and?

Quote:

Do you really think that all religions remained the same since day one? I highly doubt that. When we look at a religion, I think we look more at what characterizes it, not who made it, not the way it was it first started.

Many religions have different sects and branches and if you're in one, it seems to people that the other must be wrong or of not the same religion.
Even though they're close in origin and even in spirit...(excluding fluff)
ignorance remains on all sides.

Of course they change. But there is a way to do it, and a way not too. Does changing a Mystery Religion into a Revealed one make any sense? Changing a Fertility Cult into a "nature religion"?

When what characterizes Wicca is the Mysteries and the rituals, the way that the religion changes, even how the sects and branches form (because there are certainly differences between the Wicca branches) is going to be different.