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AspenGrey

My third problem is militant Wiccans- the ones looking for a fight, or those proclaiming that it's the best religion in the world, yadayada, or, to a much lesser degree, people who claim that any specific path of Wicca is the only 'true' path. The first two categories frankly don't deserve my time, and the third I try and tolerate in the hope of a good discussion, like this one. (Yay for my cynicism being proved wrong.)


It is the best religion in the world, for me.
I would never be so arrogant to suggest it is the best for anyone else never mind the world at large.

There are many ways to living an enlightened, enriched spiritual life, for many members of my family catholicism fills their spiritual cup and I would never tell them that such a thing was wrong for them. I have friends from various spiritual paths as well and I have no problems with them as they are honorable people.

What I do have a problem with is people claiming titles they are not entitled and misappropriating terms, in many cases people have been mislead and don't know any better and I will explain but I don't see the point in railing against them for it.

I do have my standards and my oaths to for fill and part of that is defending Wicca.
The reason we use a lot of Gardners words is because he is the originator of the religion -- and thats probably the best authority we can find. It doesn't mean that Gardnerian Wicca is the only (most of the Wiccans we know on Gaia are Alexandrian, for instance) but that he is the go-to guy on what Wicca is. Plus, a lot of his works are in the public domain. We don't use others BOS because we don't have access to them.

Cause that would probably be oathbreaking, anyways.
Nuri
The reason we use a lot of Gardners words is because he is the originator of the religion -- and thats probably the best authority we can find. It doesn't mean that Gardnerian Wicca is the only (most of the Wiccans we know on Gaia are Alexandrian, for instance) but that he is the go-to guy on what Wicca is. Plus, a lot of his works are in the public domain. We don't use others BOS because we don't have access to them.

Cause that would probably be oathbreaking, anyways.


Most covens are willing to give you quite a bit of information, there are also choices such as the BTW site and others.

Despite your point that many Gaians are Alexandrian, you still cite almost solely Gardnerian sources, which indicates a bias towards that path- whether intentional or not, it's still there.







And yet... sometimes when I look in the mirror I see myself....
And yet... sometimes I see the world behind grey eyes...
AspenGrey

Most covens are willing to give you quite a bit of information, there are also choices such as the BTW site and others.

Despite your point that many Gaians are Alexandrian, you still cite almost solely Gardnerian sources, which indicates a bias towards that path- whether intentional or not, it's still there.


You do understand that while Alexandrians trace their lineage back to Alex Sanders, Alex Sanders had lineage back to Gardner, right ?
ShadowSharrow
AspenGrey

Most covens are willing to give you quite a bit of information, there are also choices such as the BTW site and others.

Despite your point that many Gaians are Alexandrian, you still cite almost solely Gardnerian sources, which indicates a bias towards that path- whether intentional or not, it's still there.


You do understand that while Alexandrians trace their lineage back to Alex Sanders, Alex Sanders had lineage back to Gardner, right ?


Yes, but other's don't, necessarily, take Central Valley Wicca- while it bears a lot in common due to their nature it's pretty much impossible to say what source they originally traced from.







And yet... sometimes when I look in the mirror I see myself....
And yet... sometimes I see the world behind grey eyes...
AspenGrey

Yes, but other's don't, necessarily, take Central Valley Wicca- while it bears a lot in common due to their nature it's pretty much impossible to say what source they originally traced from.


That is one of their trad secrets but there have been enough interaction and cross initations between CVW and the other traditions for like to know like and to see the practice and core are still the same and ergo they are of the Wicca.

Gardener's is the oldest citible publicly published sources for Wicca, it is that simple.
ShadowSharrow
AspenGrey

Yes, but other's don't, necessarily, take Central Valley Wicca- while it bears a lot in common due to their nature it's pretty much impossible to say what source they originally traced from.


That is one of their trad secrets but there have been enough interaction and cross initations between CVW and the other traditions for like to know like and to see the practice and core are still the same and ergo they are of the Wicca.

Gardener's is the oldest citible publicly published sources for Wicca, it is that simple.


It may be the oldest, but that does not necessarily make it the best!
That said, my point was that this thread attempts to claim that only traditional Wiccan paths (we'll say BTW for short, as that includes most if not all of what I assume you would consider a traditional path) are valid, ignoring the fact that trads represent a very small part of modern Wicca. Now, I'm not saying that what some people claim as Wicca is in fact Wicca, but, excluding everything but a very narrow portion is pretty damn elitist, as well as missing both the spirit and the intent of the thing.








And yet... sometimes when I look in the mirror I see myself....
And yet... sometimes I see the world behind grey eyes...
AspenGrey
ShadowSharrow
AspenGrey

Yes, but other's don't, necessarily, take Central Valley Wicca- while it bears a lot in common due to their nature it's pretty much impossible to say what source they originally traced from.


That is one of their trad secrets but there have been enough interaction and cross initations between CVW and the other traditions for like to know like and to see the practice and core are still the same and ergo they are of the Wicca.

Gardener's is the oldest citible publicly published sources for Wicca, it is that simple.


It may be the oldest, but that does not necessarily make it the best!
That said, my point was that this thread attempts to claim that only traditional Wiccan paths (we'll say BTW for short, as that includes most if not all of what I assume you would consider a traditional path) are valid, ignoring the fact that trads represent a very small part of modern Wicca. Now, I'm not saying that what some people claim as Wicca is in fact Wicca, but, excluding everything but a very narrow portion is pretty damn elitist, as well as missing both the spirit and the intent of the thing.




So-called "Modern Wicca" is, for reasons already stated, not actually Wiccan in any way. Since these solitary paths bear almost no real resemblance to Trad Wicca (which, obviously, had the name 'Wicca' first), why would you ever call them Wicca? The fact that these paths were vaguely influenced by Wicca doesn't make them Wiccan, any more than the fact that Christianity was influenced by Judaism make a Christian a Jew.
Loona Wynd's avatar
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ShadowSharrow
loona wynd
Question:

Many people see Wicca as a "white light" based religion that only concentrates on the "Good" of life. That there are no "negative" spirits and the like. What is the true belief regarding dark and light and spirits?


Well it isn't and it doesn't.

There are all types.
That's what I thought. The question came about as I was reading about the differences between Trad Witchcraft and Wicca. They were basically talking about "fluffy" wicca in the article, but I was curious.
scorplett's avatar
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AspenGrey
ShadowSharrow
AspenGrey

Most covens are willing to give you quite a bit of information, there are also choices such as the BTW site and others.

Despite your point that many Gaians are Alexandrian, you still cite almost solely Gardnerian sources, which indicates a bias towards that path- whether intentional or not, it's still there.


You do understand that while Alexandrians trace their lineage back to Alex Sanders, Alex Sanders had lineage back to Gardner, right ?


Yes, but other's don't, necessarily, take Central Valley Wicca- while it bears a lot in common due to their nature it's pretty much impossible to say what source they originally traced from.


You do understand that ALL Wicca traces to the same origins and the materials written and created (published or otherwise) by Gerald Gardner.
While it is correct to say publicly that there is no difinative way to trace CVW, it is possible in other ways that would be unverifiable to such a forum as this.
All CVW traditions are valid Wiccan traditions and therefore traceability is present. What goes for Gardnerian public domain material, also goes for CVW, Alexandrian, Mohsian and to differing degrees, Bluestar also.
Core is core and without it something is no longer Wicca!
scorplett's avatar
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loona wynd
ShadowSharrow
loona wynd
Question:

Many people see Wicca as a "white light" based religion that only concentrates on the "Good" of life. That there are no "negative" spirits and the like. What is the true belief regarding dark and light and spirits?


Well it isn't and it doesn't.

There are all types.
That's what I thought. The question came about as I was reading about the differences between Trad Witchcraft and Wicca. They were basically talking about "fluffy" wicca in the article, but I was curious.


Just a quick note of clarification...
There are three different things coming into conversation here
Trad Wicca (ie British Traditional Initiatory Wicca a la GBG)
Trad Witchcraft (Non Wiccan Witchcrafting traditions, some initiatory, others not)
Mc"wicca" (popular it's not really Wicca even though it says so on the tin!)
Neopagan Witchcraft (ecclectic, group or solitary broad terms for non Wiccan and non trad based)

So where you looking at the differences between Trad Witchcraft and Trad Wicca? or which way round was it?
Loona Wynd's avatar
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scorplett
loona wynd
ShadowSharrow
loona wynd
Question:

Many people see Wicca as a "white light" based religion that only concentrates on the "Good" of life. That there are no "negative" spirits and the like. What is the true belief regarding dark and light and spirits?


Well it isn't and it doesn't.

There are all types.
That's what I thought. The question came about as I was reading about the differences between Trad Witchcraft and Wicca. They were basically talking about "fluffy" wicca in the article, but I was curious.


Just a quick note of clarification...
There are three different things coming into conversation here
Trad Wicca (ie British Traditional Initiatory Wicca a la GBG)
Trad Witchcraft (Non Wiccan Witchcrafting traditions, some initiatory, others not)
Mc"wicca" (popular it's not really Wicca even though it says so on the tin!)
Neopagan Witchcraft (ecclectic, group or solitary broad terms for non Wiccan and non trad based)

So where you looking at the differences between Trad Witchcraft and Trad Wicca? or which way round was it?
The difference between Trad Witchcraft and Trad Wicca.
scorplett's avatar
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AspenGrey
ShadowSharrow
AspenGrey

Yes, but other's don't, necessarily, take Central Valley Wicca- while it bears a lot in common due to their nature it's pretty much impossible to say what source they originally traced from.


That is one of their trad secrets but there have been enough interaction and cross initations between CVW and the other traditions for like to know like and to see the practice and core are still the same and ergo they are of the Wicca.

Gardener's is the oldest citible publicly published sources for Wicca, it is that simple.


It may be the oldest, but that does not necessarily make it the best!

Why do you keep getting caught up in this 'better than' notion. No one is saying that Gardnerian is better than Alexandrian or any other permutation thereof. We are saying that if the core does not trace to Gerald Gardner and the New Forest Witches of the 1940's, then it is not Wicca.
That is not the same as saying that one path is better than another. Far from it. It's just calling a spade a spade.
AspenGrey

That said, my point was that this thread attempts to claim that only traditional Wiccan paths (we'll say BTW for short, as that includes most if not all of what I assume you would consider a traditional path) are valid

Depends what you mean by valid.
No one is going to say that any path or tradition is not valid as a path. However, we are saying that anything that does not have traceability, historically and in practice, to GBG and the New Forest of the 1940's is not Wicca.
Something not being valid as Wicca does not make something not valid full stop! It's a pretty simple delineation!

AspenGrey

ignoring the fact that trads represent a very small part of modern Wicca.

The Traditions of Wicca represent ALL of modern Wicca.
AspenGrey

Now, I'm not saying that what some people claim as Wicca is in fact Wicca, but, excluding everything but a very narrow portion is pretty damn elitist, as well as missing both the spirit and the intent of the thing.

Well what would you propose that delineation to be?
You concede that not everything that calls itself Wicca is in fact Wicca. So where do you draw the line. What must be in place before something can be considered Wicca. I would very much like to know what you think on that. Maybe we can compare and contrast checklists!
Sorry for the slow response, I was in classes all day today and only had a moment to review the posts, so if my response doesn't address your particular counterpoint, my apologies.

The first point I'd like to defend against is the 'Christians are not Jews'. This is an invalid metaphor- you're not going for the big picture. Christians are not Jews- they are members of a monotheistic religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Judaism is a monotheistic religion based on the teachings in the Hebrew Bible (for sake of argument & simplicity, the Old Testament, although that is not perfectly accurate.) They are both monotheistic religions with many similar tenets and even writings, however, the major shift involved in the advent of Jesus Christ messes with your metaphor too much.

A better example for this would be 'Border collies are not German Shepards'. They are both dogs, they (likely) share a common ancestor, and they are similar enough to allow interbreeding. (For all of our attempts at specialization, no breed of what we commonly refer to as a 'dog' is a different species.) (1)

You can also go back to Christianity for your example- orthodox Christianity vs Protestant. No-one called the Protestant Christians non-Christians, they just called them Heritics, and in terms of Catholicism they were. But they were still Christians. The PIRA still does this in North Ireland. To use the degree of seperation example, a Catholic Priest cannot be a Baptist Priest, but he is still a priest, and so is the baptist, and they are both CHRISTIAN priests.

The most extreme example I can think of is that of racial discrimination that has been so popular in our world; that is, people claiming that blacks are not humans. Do I even need to continue this example?

Thus, solitary Wiccans (or eclectic- I would like to address them separately because you -do- get to a degree of separation where it makes a difference) are NOT any form of BTW. They are not Gardnerians, they are not Alexandrian, CVW, or any other form. (2) They are, however, still a part of the bigger picture- as long as they follow the core components of Wicca, they are still Wiccan.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, what are these core components? Well, I'll pull in a few different sources here;
Taken from Wikipedia; admittedly not an authoritative source, we get:
Wicca (IPA: /ˈwɪkə/) is a nature-based religion popularised in 1954 by Gerald Gardner, a retired British civil servant.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca)

That's an OK baseline, but it's not very descriptive.

One I prefer is from the BTW FAQ:
Although in recent years the diversity of the people who call themselves Wiccan has made a comprehensive definition impossible, some general statements can be made: All Wiccans worship a Goddess or Goddesses; most also worship a God or Gods. Practically all hold rituals inside a magic circle, usually at the time of the Full Moon and eight Sabbats. Practically all believe in and practice some form of magic.
(http://www.newwiccanchurch.net/articles/btwfaq.htm)

I personally would also remove the 'believe in' part of the last sentence- to me that is non-negotiable. The consideration of 'practicing' is a valid point that may vary from person to person for a wide variety of reasons.


If we head over to ‘Wicca for the Rest of Us’, we find the following:
• Is polytheistic religion focusing upon dedication to patron deities, typically a god and a goddess.
• Is a modern religion influenced by a variety of pre-Christian beliefs.
• Views the spiritual and material worlds as overlapping: the gods are not distant beings but entities whose presence we can experience.
• Stresses personal experience with divinity and developing greater harmony with the larger world.
• Views the universe as the product of complementary opposites in a system roughly akin to the Chinese concept of yin and yang.
• Teaches that we all are ultimately responsible for our own actions.
That’s pretty good- it matches what Wikipedia says in the terms of ‘modern religion’ and agrees with many of the points the BTW FAQ makes, and adds some new ones as well.
(http://wicca.timerift.net/wicca101/Basics.shtml#1)

Finally, let’s pull in Gerald Gardner’s earlier writings;
I’m pulling these from the Gardnerian BoS, published online at http://sacred-texts.com/pag/gbos/index.htm
I think that we can agree that that’s a reasonable representation of the BoS?
The GBoS makes things a bit more difficult- it doesn’t have a section entitled ‘What is Wicca?’ Very likely Gardner never considered this important- he knew what it was, anyone that had the Book knew what it was, why did it need an explanation? He does give somewhat of a look into the question in his books ‘Witchcraft Today’ (p. 1954) and ‘The Meaning of Witchcraft’ (p. 1959), but as these are not in the public domain I’ll refrain from citing them. I am also going to refrain from citing anything listed in “The Old Laws” (p. 1961, arguably created late 1957) as these came after the bulk of the material Gardner composed of Wicca and were refuted by many of his peers, including his pupil Doreen Valiente.( Valiente (1989) The Rebirth of Witchcraft.)


Woah!? The BoS doesn’t say what you must be to be a Wiccan! What a concept! (3)

More importantly, he never states that to be a Wiccan you must be initiated, or, that your coven must trace itself back to his religion. (See note above)

Inline Note:
I can’t actually find the OP’s source for the following. I had assumed it was from here : http://web.archive.org/web/20050828073500/http://users.cwnet.com/~season/gardner/gthegods.htm
However, it’s not part of that text. I also can’t find a similar quote through judicious searching.


In fact, the primary argument used for initiatory, oath-bound traditions is this line;
Quote:
The Priests and Priestesses who directed these festivals were called the Wica, meaning 'The Wise Ones',

which the OP interprets to means that one must be initiated. Since Initiation is by definition the acceptance into a tradition (http://wicca.timerift.net/letters.shtml, 3rd line break. See note for full text and highlighted portion.) (4) However, no-where does Gardner state that one must be intitiated to be a Witch. In fact, pretty much every form of BTW recognizes ‘dedicants’ or students, it’s practically what you have to be before you can reasonably expect to be initiated. (5)




So you see, attemping to put your path (or tradition) above others is merely and ego-trip for those who engage in it, and has no actual bearing beyond that. Claiming that what someone calls ‘Wicca’ is not Wicca is an unjust accusation, so long as they follow a reasonable well accepted definition of what Wicca is. Now, claiming to be a witch in a form of BTW is a different story. If someone were to claim to be a 1st degree initiate, and was not, any member of that tradition would have full rights to tell him that he was not. They would not have the right to tell him that he is not Wiccan- he ejsut isn’t a Gardnerian Wiccan, or an Alexandrian Wiccan, or another form. Any other arguments about what is and what is not Wicca is frankly on the same level of the arguments made by racists and the PIRA. (6)





(1) This is also not a perfect example; oftentimes Eclectic Wiccans will get to a point where they have so little in common with the original that they are no longer enough related for knowledge gained in one path to be applicable in another- in biology we would term this a 'degree of seperation', and would require two breeds of dogs to not be cross-breedable and produce fertile offspring. A wolf can, in theory, breed with a chihuahua and still produce a fertile offsprings.

(2) The exception to this being the idea of a BT Wiccan being 'separated' from her Coven but not expelled from it, as the case may be when a member moves and there is no longer a coven in the area. For a time the Wiccan may be considered 'solitary', but she is still, say, a 2nd Degree Gardnerian Wiccan.

(3) Admittedly, this is very likely because this edition of the BoS is very early, and at this point in time no-one considered ‘defining’ Wicca. Does the Bible define what a Christian is? Does the Torah define what a Jew is? No; it’s not necessary.

(4) Text taken from: http://wicca.timerift.net/letters.shtml
Quote:
"Self-initiation," however, is a contradictory in terms. Initiation is something conferred upon you by others. You cannot confer it upon yourself and thus cannot "self-initiate." What Solitaries do is go through a dedication ceremony, which is their declaration to the gods of their intent and, well, dedication to them.

I agree with this 100%. It may only be a matter of semantics but it’s an important point. A dedicated solitary is not a 1st degree BTW.

(5) This is one of those annoyingly accepted things that’s damned hard to source. One of the best sources I found is here: http://www.wintersend.co.uk/about.htm where the coven describes their initiation procedures.


(6) My intent here is to say that any argument based on tradition, heritage, initiation, or oaths is on this level.






And yet... sometimes when I look in the mirror I see myself....
And yet... sometimes I see the world behind grey eyes...
Wiccan books of shadows are oath bound, anyone that is in the public domain is either a fraud or else was but there by disreputable and dishonorable people who are oath breakers and they or what they disclose are not to be trusted.

'AspenGrey"


Thus, solitary Wiccans (or eclectic- I would like to address them separately because you -do- get to a degree of separation where it makes a difference) are NOT any form of BTW. They are not Gardnerians, they are not Alexandrian, CVW, or any other form. (2) They are, however, still a part of the bigger picture- as long as they follow the core components of Wicca, they are still Wiccan.


How can they have the core if they were not initiated and given it ? If they have not undergone the mysteries ?

They may be seekers and working from what is in the public domain via outer court material or the pagan path materials but that does not make them wiccan.


Wicca is not a catch all word for Witchcraft.
Not all witches are pagan.
Not all pagans are witches.
Not all pagan witches are Wiccans.

All Wiccans are pagan and witches.
All Wiccans have proper Wiccan Lineage given by cross gendered initation.
The redes are a poem which gives advice it is not law.
There are laws which are called the ordains.


Wicca is an Oathbound, Lineaged, cross gendered Initatory, Experiential, Mystery, Fertility Cult of Clergy who are Pagans and Witches.

There are differing Traditions with in Wicca but they are all the same religion and stem from from a particular group of pagan witches in the New Forest area.

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