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Wiccan FAQ

Version 5.0 :B

HI YOU. Welcome to the FIFTH and hopefully final edition of the Wiccan FAQ. My username, as you can see, is Kalyani Srijoi - actually, though, I usually go by Triste, which is the name common to all of my previous accounts, which were definitely not permabanned because I am definitely not stupid and offensive! biggrin

For those of you who are familiar with me and with the thread, here's the deal - the Wicca 101 section is largely unchanged, although I have taken out the part about holidays until I can write my own bit on it, pointing out that the names usually used are crap and fail. As for the misconceptions bit, I've kept some of it, but mostly replaced it with new stuff. You know, take out the mysteries but keep the bit about clergy, etc., whatever the ********. God, I'm tired. I really don't know why I'm so freaking tired. I slept like 12 hours last night. This whole thing sucks. I really hate school. ******** school. My ******** job. ******** Gaia.

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FIRST WE GONNA 14% [ 52 ]
ROCK 48% [ 178 ]
THEN WE GONNA 7% [ 28 ]
ROLL 29% [ 109 ]
[Total Votes : 367]

- - -

First and foremost, the purpose of this thread is to clear up misconceptions about Wicca. This means a couple of things:

  • If you've never heard of Wicca before, you may be slightly confused as to what the ******** I'm talking about when I talk about the common misconceptions, simply because you won't have heard the misconceptions.

  • If you have heard of Wicca before, there's about a 99% chance that you've heard information about it that is different from ours. This information, along with an explanation of why it is complete and utter bullshit, will be included below. You are, of course, free to debate with us. In fact, it is encouraged.

  • If you believe that you are Wiccan, there's a 99% chance that you, yes you, have been working under a misconception, and that you do not understand what Wicca is. Right now, you are probably thinking, Oh ********, this girl is going to start telling me that Wicca is the religion of Satan and that Jesus loves me. I'm not Christian, for starters, and I don't find any religion to be particularly evil.

    For the latter two, I personally suggest that you temporarily forget that you know anything about Wicca. Because you probably don't. There is, of course, a fourth option:

  • You are an honest-to-goodness Wiccan, with a first degree or higher, or you are working on your first degree, or are going to as soon as you find a coven/turn 18. If so, please, for the love of god, talk to me. I always appreciate the insight of those who are actually Wiccan.

Wicca 101

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What is the elemental weapon of ether, b***h?

1 - In the beginning, there was...?


Wicca For the Rest of Us
Wicca began with a man named Gerald Gardner in the mid 20th century. Many people give the year 1954 as its inception, because this is when Gardner published Witchcraft Today. Gardner had, however, already published High Magic's Aid in 1949 under the pseudonym Scire, and it was not until 1959, in The Meaning of Witchcraft, that he mentions the word "Wica".

Gardner claimed that in 1939 he was initiated into the New Forest Coven by one Dorothy Clutterbuck. Whether this coven ever existed is still in question today, and if it did, how old it actually was. Gardner claimed it to be part of the Old Religion - he even had Margaret Murray write the forward of Witchcraft Today.

The simple fact is that much of what Gardner taught in his books were derived from ceremonial magic. Gardner was a brief friend of occultist Aleister Crowley (they met only a year before Crowley's death) and a member of the OTO (Ordo Templi Orientis). But Gardner's views of magic and religion did vary from that of ceremonial magic. Among other things, Crowley taught that magic was the power of will, while Wicca puts the origins of magic in the God and Goddess.

Gardner's Wicca was much more male-oriented than modern Wiccans associate with the religion. The increased female-orientation stated with his student, Doreen Valiente.


NOTE: The website I cited above is an excellent source of Non-oathbound Wiccan Lore, and of Wiccan history as well. However, I do not agree with the author's definition of what Wicca actually is.

It's important to note that Margaret Murray, who wrote the theory of the Old Religion, was debunked years ago.

Wicca For the Rest Of Us
Much of the nonsense you might hear uttered about the history of Wicca started with an anthropologist named Margaret Murray. She was published in the 1920s, as were some lesser known supporters. You will see her name in the bibliographies of many, many books on Wicca. I generally take mention of her as a reason NOT to purchase a book. What the Wiccan books that cite her generally fail to mention, however, is that she and her theories were thoroughly discredited several decades ago due to a painful and unprofessional lack of evidence.

Was she a sham?
Murray never claimed to be Wiccan or Pagan or a follower of the Old Religion, so she had nothing to gain from deception. She probably honestly thought she was promoting historical truth.

What did she teach?
She believed, in short, that there was an ancient Old Religion in Europe far predating Christianity and that it secretly survived for centuries despite the Church's attempt to destroy it, culminating in the great witch-hunts, or Burning Times.

One of Murray's theories was that this secret pagan cult practiced voluntary human sacrifice. Every nine years a believer had to die. She puts forward several such victims, including King William Rufus (William II) of England, Saint Thomas Becket, and Saint Joan of Arc. Yes, note the "Saint" in two of those names.

Rufus was a bore of a man and detested by nearly everyone during his life, so much so that his body was quickly secured and buried before anyone could defile it. He died on a hunting excursion, when a friend "accidentally" shot him with an arrow. Ironically, historians tend to think it really was an accident. Murray suggests that this friend was in fact a fellow pagan carrying out Rufus's wishes: they had already willingly separated from the rest of a hunting party and were therefore alone.

Similarly Becket's murderers were in fact fellow pagans, according to Murray, flying straight into the face of all accepted history of the saint. Becket was a personal friend of King Henry II, and Henry arranged for him to become archbishop of Canterbury, as the politics between Church and State were not at their healthiest at the time. But Becket had a change of heart. Perhaps it was simply a bit of a power trip for him, or perhaps he did indeed experience a religious reverie. Regardless, Becket began opposing the King much as his predecessor had, until one night, while drunk, Henry famously uttered, "Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?" Four knights took this to be an order, rode hard to Canterbury, and murdered Becket in his own cathedral. Henry was profoundly wracked by guilt, was censured by the Church, and submitted to a whipping by Church officers in penance.

The only odd fact of this whole story is that Becket had warning of the knights' arrival, and when his subordinates attempted to spirit him away, he refused. But instead of accepting this final act as submission to God's will, Murray spins this fantastical and quite illogical tale of secret religions and pagan sacrifice.

Joan of Arc's story is the most bizarre of Murray's fables. Instead of having her fellow pagans slaughter her, she allowed herself to be captured and burned at the stake at the hands of the Christian Church. What religious purpose can possibly be served at the hands of a non-believer? And if this rather sophomoric religion that Murray depicts merely needed a death, then did she not simply fall upon her sword, poison herself, even throw herself from a high wall? Instead she was tortured, humiliated and possibly raped before suffering one of the most horrific and painful methods of execution possible.

To make such claims without a shred of evidence is just plain irresponsible. To take two great heroes of someone else's religion and claim they were in fact pagans is outright insulting. And even if this crazy religion did actually exist, why on earth would modern Wiccans want to be associated with it? I've never seen a Wiccan claim Joan or Becket as among our ranks, but the idea that we would associate ourselves at all with Murray's nonsense is depressing.


1.1 - Um, ceremonial magic?
Yes, ceremonial magic. As you may or may not know, the type of magic that Wiccans use is the type commonly called Ceremonial Magic. A few of you may be confused by this: after all, Silver Ravenwolf never mentioned ceremonial magic, and from the name, it doesn't sound like it could be done using the Teen Witch Kit. But enough of my pretentious babbling.

Ceremonial magic is generally considered the most complex form of magic. This has obviously been bastardized as the religion continues to be watered down: Wicca seems to have gone from complex ritual and elaborate magic theory to chanting over a green candle to make more money.

Ceremonial magic is commonly associated with and inspired by Hermeticism, which is the practice (and study) of magic, specifically that associated with writings attributed to the god Hermes Trismegistus, the syncretism of the greek god Hermes and the Egyptian god Thoth. Astrology and Alchemy are both parts of ceremonial magic and Hermeticism. As for Alchemy, I think it should be known (for those who don't feel like clicking the links) that Alchemy is NOT the same as science. It is a precursor to chemistry and science, yes, but since it was created before the scientific method and does not involve the scientific method, it is not really scientific. It's more of a philosophical practice than a scientific one: which is to say that it was less geared towards literally turning lead into gold, and more concerned into taking symbolic 'lead' (which is to say, a common person) into symbolic 'gold' (like a priest or king or deity, etc.).

The group that is often considered to be the most influential to the development of ceremonial magic in our time is The Golden Dawn. This group also heavily influence Wicca.

1.1.1 - Um, the Golden Dawn?

Yes, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. Found in London in the year 1887 AD by three British Freemasons by the name of Dr. William Robert Woodman, Dr. William Wynn Westcott, and Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers.

Israel Regardie, a famous member of the Order,

"The Order of the G.D. [Golden Dawn] is an Hermetic Society whose members are taught the principles of Occult Science and the Magic of Hermes."

It is important to note that the Golden Dawn is not a religion. People of many religions have joined the order (including Christians - indeed, Christian symbolism has heavily influence ceremonial magic) in the past and there is no specific belief required for members. It is an order for practitioners of ceremonial magic and people who wish to grow spiritually.

1.2 - Triste, your history is wrong. I thought...


But Wicca is older than Christianity!
Wicca was never male based! Ancient Wiccan societies were matriarchal!
Wicca was simply hidden for thousands of years, that's why there's no evidence of it!

If you have any other issues with my history, please post them in the thread, and they will be addressed.

2 - Ok, whatever. But what do Wiccans actually believe?

Oh, all sorts of neat things.

2.1 - Do they believe in God?

Yes, but not the same God that others may believe in. They believe in one God and one Goddess, and as such are ditheistic. As to the nature of these two deities, here are the words of Gerald Gardner himself.

Gerald Gardner, the aforementioned founder of Wicca,

Now G. (the Goddess) had never loved, but she would solve all mysteries, even the mystery of Death, and so she journeyed to the nether lands. The guardians of the portals challenged her. "Strip off thy garments, lay aside thy jewels, for nought may ye bring with you into this our land." So she laid down her garments and her jewels and was bound as are all who enter the realms of Death, the mighty one. [Original footnote: See Note 2(page 159). This concerns the practice of binding after death.]

Such was her beauty that Death himself knelt and kissed her feet, saying: "Blessed be thy feet that have brought thee in these ways. Abide with me, but let me place my cold hand on thy heart." And she replied: "I love thee not. Why doest thou cause all things that I love and take delight in to fade and die?" "Lady," replied Death, "'tis age and fate, against which I am helpless. Age causes all things to wither; but when men die at the end of time, I give them rest and peace and strength so that may return. But you, you are lovely. Return not; abide with me." But she answered: "I love thee not." Then said Death: "As you receive not my hand on your heart, you must receive Death's scourge." "It is fate, better so," she said, and she knelt. Death scourged her and she cried: "I know the pangs of love." And Death said: "Blessed be," and gave her the fivefold kiss, saying: "Thus only may you attain to joy and knowledge."

And he taught her all the mysteries, and they loved and were one; and he taught her all the magics. For there are three great events in the life of man -- love, death and resurrection in the new body -- and magic controls them all. To fulfil love you must return again at the same time and place as the loved ones, and you must remember and love her or him again. But to be reborn you must die and be made ready for a new body; to die you must be born; without love you may not be born, and this is all the magic.


NOTE: This website seems to be broken as I am writing this. That's really, really not good for me, because I don't actually own the things cited on the website. If anyone else A) owns them and can cover me or B) knows another website where Gardner is directly quoted, please contact me.

Authentic witchcraft is certainly not black magic, because witches do not even believe in the devil, let alone invoke him. The Old Horned God of the witches is not the Satan of Christianity, and no amount of theological argument will make him so. He is, in fact, the oldest deity known to man, and is depicted in the oldest representation of a divinity which has yet been found, namely the Stone Age painting in the innermost recess of the Caverne des Trois Freres at Ariege. He is the old phallic god of fertility who has come forth from the morning of the world, and who was already of immeasurable antiquity before Egypt and Babylon, let alone before the Christian era. Nor did he perish at the cry that Great Pan was dead.

Secretly through the centuries, hidden deeper and deeper as time went on, his worship and that of the naked Moon Goddess, his bride, the Lady of Mystery and Magic and the forbidden joys, continued sometimes among the great ones of the land, sometimes in humble cottages, or on lonely heaths and in the depths of darkling woods, on summer nights when the moon rode high. It does so still.

Wicca is, simply put, the fertility cult that worships the Lord and Lady of the Isles. These two deities, male and female, are often refered to, in non-oathbound Wiccan Lore, by the names of various historical gods and goddesses. Their true names are oathbound mysteries revealed only to initiates of lineaged covens. Gardner, for instance, occasionally refers to the Lord as Janus, and the Lady as Diana:

Hence the Lord of the Gates of Death is also the phallic deity of fertility, the Opener of the Door of LIfe.

This is why the witches' god was incorporated into the Roman pantheon as Janus, the two-faced god who was Guardian of the Gates. He and his consort Diana are two of the oldest deities of Western Europe, and Diana is named in the Canon Episcopi of the early tenth century as being the goddess of the witches.

Other 'names' of the goddess:

"Dame Habonde" was Abundia, the Goddess of Fertility, and "Bensozia" was "Bona Socia", The Good Neighbour". All these terms are titles of the Witch Goddess, and euphemisms for her real name, even as her followers, the witches, are referred to as "les bonnes dames". Other terms for the Goddess were "La Reine Pedauque", the Queen with the Goose-Foot (the "goose-foot" being itself a euphemism for her sigh, the Pentagram); and "Frau Hilde" or "Holda" in Teutonic countries.

It is important to note that Wicca is not necessarily pantheistic - while Gardner associates the god and goddess with many deities, he does not associate them with all other deities. No, YHVH (the Christian God) is not an aspect of the Lord, no is Kali an aspect of the Lady.


Also, as an FYI, the Maiden/Mother/Crone model of goddess upon which the Wiccan Goddess rests/is formed appears to have come from Robert Graves' book The White Goddess. Historical triple goddesses were not age and fertility based.

The 'Maiden/Mother/Crone' model is one commonly used among Neopagans in general. The maiden is the aspect of childhood, adolescence, beginnings, purity, virginity, independence, and courage. The mother is the aspect of motherhood, protection, fertility, growth, and sexuality. The crone is the aspect of old age, wisdom, change, transformation, death, rebirth, and banishing.

These three goddess aspects generally correspond with phases of the mood. The maiden is the waxing phase, the mother is the full moon, and the crone is the waning phase. People often associate a 'Dark Goddess' with the fourth phase.

The Wiccan Lady is indeed a moon goddess with three phases (aka a triune goddess), just as the Lord is a solar deity with two phases (aka a diune god). It is extremely important to note that the Lady is NOT, I repeat, NOT an Earth Goddess. She is not Gaia, and she is not the mother earth. Wiccan deities are celestial, not terrestrial - that is to say that they are based within the sky, not the earth itself.

2.2 - Do they believe in Heaven and Hell?

Take it away, Gerald.

Gerald Gardner
I do not think that primitive people were as afraid of death as many people are today. Living closer to nature, their psychic powers were more active, and they were used to the idea of communicating with their dead relatives and friends. They looked upon it as quite a natural thing. Hence the witches, among whom this ancient creed is still preserved in a fragmentary form, do not regard the Horned God in his form as lord of the Gates of Death as a terrifying being, nor have they any conception of a burning "Hell" such as some Christians envisage.

Their idea of the After-Life is rather that of a place of rest and refreshment, where people await their turn to be born again on this earth. This, of course, is the concept of reincarnation, which is widely held among primitive people of all kinds. To them, the most logical place for the souls of new-born babies to have come from is the Land of the Dead, where there are plenty of souls awaiting another body. Hence the Lord of the Gates of Death is also the phallic deity of fertility, the Opener of the Door of LIfe.


Dr. W., Wagner's Asgard and the Gods: the Tales and Traditions of our Northern Ancestors says of Holda "...that those who were crippled in any way were restored to full strength and power by bathing in her Quickborn (fountain of life) and that old men found their vanished youth there once more."

This is precisely the witches' Goddess of Rebirth and Resurrection; and it is the same tale which was told about the magical cauldron of the Ancient British Goddess, Cerridwen. The inner meaning in both cases is the same; the Goddess's gift is rebirth in a new body, reincarnation. "With sturdier limbs and brighter brain, the old soul takes the road again." Incidentally, this may be the inner meaning of the old British tale of Avalon, the Place of Apples. Every old Celtic tale speaks of the after-world as a place of apple-trees, but nobody seems to know just why.

If the reader cares to make the experiment of slicing an apple across, he will see the answer: the core forms the sign of the Pentagram, the symbol of the Goddess of Rebirth and Resurrection. "Avalon" was the place where souls went to rest between incarnation on earth. To this day, in the witch ritual, the Priestess first stands with her arms crossed on her breast and her feet together, to represent the God of Death, and then opens out her arms and stands with feet apart to represent the Goddess of Resurrection. In this position the human body resembles the figure of the Pentacle, or Pentagram. Because it was the place from which the old and weary soul was reborn in a young body, with its strength and courage renewed: Avalon was also called in the Celtic "Tir-nan-Og", the land of Youth.

The purpose of contacting the gods was to keep contact with the forces of life, and these were identical with the forces of magic and fertility.

"The divine itself is without needs, and the worship is paid for our own benefit. The providence of the Gods reaches everywhere, and needs only some congruity for its reception." (Compare wit the witches' idea that man had to do something to "build a bridge", so to speak, between himself and the Gods).

An interesting point concerning this was brought up by TeaDidikai:



2.2 - Do they believe in Heaven and Hell?

I contest part of the assertion in so much as they do not ?believe in it at all?, within the context of the 161 Laws and law 35:
35 of the 161 Laws
And if any break these Laws, even under torture, THE CURSE OF THE GODDESS SHALL BE UPON THEM, so they may never be reborn on earth and may remain where they belong, in the hell of the Christians.

As for the 161 Laws, I'll add something in about them mentioning hell, though to be honest, I would take Gardner's more official writings over the 161 Laws. There's always the possibility that the 161 were speaking metaphorically or something, and at any rate, Gardner broke those laws. They're important but not necessarily strict dogma, IMO. I would say you can disregard much of the 161 laws and still be Wiccan.

mrgreen Thank you!

2.3 - Do they have any laws, like the Ten Commandments?

Why yes, they do. They have 161, in fact.

The 161 Laws, also known as the Old Laws.


Theoretically, this was passed down through the years within the coven that introduced Gardner to Wicca. The problem is that no one's sure if the New Forest Coven even existed or, if it did, how old or organized it was. Even Gardner confessed what they taught was fragmentary.

It may be that the Old Laws are largely the work of Gardner himself. The Old Laws did not even come to light until 1957, when a disagreement broke out over Gardner's continued interviews with the press, despite his own rules concerning secrecy. Doreen Valiente and another covener created the "Proposed Rules for the Craft", which included a stipulation concerning the granting of interviews.

...As a reply, Gardner claimed that these "Proposed Rules" were unneeded, since the Craft already had a set of traditional laws. He then sent his coveners "The Old Laws", a rambling document containing rules, cautions, practical advice and a smattering of theology. Ms. Valiente doubted the authenticity of these "The Old Laws" and strongly opposed them.

However, large sections of the Old Laws did appear, if not word for word, at least in concept in Gardner's Witchcraft Today in 1954.

The other interesting fact to note is the correctly used archaic language used in the Old Laws, which makes the Old Laws perhaps unique among Wiccan documents. The language, however, is uneven, employing both modern and archaic phrases. This has led to the theory that Gardner may have assembled the Laws from multiple older fragments.

It should also be noted that while the Old Laws speaks only of the punishment of burning for witches, England mostly hung their witches. Scotland, however, did burn them.

The version below is based on what is believed to be a version typewritten by Gardner himself. Many other versions, with varying spellings and word usage, also exist.

The Old Laws are sometimes broken up into the 161 Laws or 161 Rules of the Witch.


If you actually read the old laws, you may find them somewhat disturbing: at times it becomes a guide to avoid torture, which seems paranoid, to say the least. It can even seem sexist. In reality, even Gerald Gardner ignored many of these laws (the laws about not telling anyone that you're Wiccan, obviously) and even the most hardcore traditionalists are unlikely to follow them completely. They are, however, a handy guide for dealing with conflicts within covens, among other things.

In addition to these 161 Laws, there are other laws attributed to Wicca, though few of them are actually canon. People just have a tendency to call anything involving magic 'Wiccan' whether it truly is or not.

One of these laws that is accepted as canon is called...

2.3.1 - What? What's it called? scream
The Wiccan Rede. 3nodding "An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will." That's the Wiccan Rede.

Now, pay attention, because this is very important: The Rede does NOT command Wiccans to 'harm none.' The Rede technically does not prohibit anything - it merely says that anything that hurts no one is NOT prohibited. It is obviously impossible to 'harm none,' as we kill microorganisms unconciously with each breath we take.

Most Wiccans take the philosophy a step farther and take it to mean 'harm as litle as possible.'

Note that the Wiccan Credo (A poem that starts "Bide the Wiccan Laws we must // In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust" and ends with the Rede) is NOT the Rede itself. It is also a bunch of nonsense, frankly. It sounds nice but has no meaning.

Phoenixfire Lune Soleil

"An it harm none, do what ye will." Despite popular belief, this does not mean "as long as you don't hurt anyone, do what you like". In actual fact, if you look at Crowley's meaning of "do what ye will", it means to act upon your true Will's desire (what is needed spiritually, not what is wanted on a materialistic level), and in the Wiccan Rede this means that so long as no-one is harmed (including yourself) by your actions, one can achieve what you truely need.

Aleister Crowley, the creator of Thelema, had a similar law, which was simply 'Do as thou wilt, that is the whole of the law.' Of course, 'as thou wilt' was, as Phoenix says, not simply what you felt like doing at the moment, but what you wanted spiritually. Apparently, if everyone knew their true will and followed it, there would be perfect harmony. Thus, 'harm none' is implied in the context of Thelema.

Crowley was considered a powerful influence on Wicca and on the occult in general.

The Simple Version for those who didn't get that:

Phoenixfire Lune Soleil
The rule of harm none technically isn't a rule to harm none. The first indication is the title "Rede" - rede means advice, and advice isn't known for it's infalability.
Apart from that, it says "an it harm none, do what ye will". That would mean "if it doesn't harm, it's permitted", it doesn't say "if it harms, it is forbidden".

There is a difference between those two statements:

"If it doesn't harm, it's permitted"
This indicates that an action which doesn't harm is ok to do, but it doesn't say that actions which do cause harm are not allowed.

"If it harms, it is forbidden"
This is directly saying that certain actions are forbidden to do, but this is not what the Rede says.

A basic interpretation of the Rede would be encouragment of harmless acts, but it washes its hands of anything harmful and leaves it up to the Wiccan to decide if they should do it or not. So basically, if it causes harm, it's your choice: you aren't bound by any rules that say you shouldn't do it.

3 - So, as witches, they have crazy rituals and s**t, right?

Yes, Wiccans do indeed practice what is called 'crazy rituals and s**t' or, more commonly, 'magic.'

As for the definition of magic - this is incredibly fuzzy. Understand that the Wiccan idea of magic is not necessarily the same as everyone elses definition of magic. That doesn't mean everyone is wrong about what magic is, since Wicca does not have exclusive rights to the word. It just means that magic is thought of in a certain way for a Wiccan.

Wiccan ritual is, as stated before, heavily based in ceremonial magic traditions. You won't find a lot of similarity between Wiccan magic and folk traditions.

3.1 - Hold up, Triste, I know what magic is! Magic is ...

  • ... completely stupid! Those dumbasses think they can shoot fireballs and s**t! I KNOW, RIGHT? HAHAHAA. But in all seriousness: while Wiccans' cliams to be able to use magic have never been scientifically verified, Wiccan magic has very little to do with the shooting of fireballs, which is quite unfortunate. Generally speaking, practices which claim to give one the ability to, say, levitate of become invisible (and yes, people, they do, in fact, exist) tend to be very old, back before people were very skeptical about such things. Wicca, being a modern religion, rarely claims to give a person incredible supernatural powers.
  • ... just the Wiccan word for prayer. While much of Wiccan ritual is deeply entrenched in Wiccan theology, magic is not necessarily prayer. Unlike some other magical traditions, which place supernatural power either firmly in the hands of the divine or solely the domain of men, Wiccan magic has something of both. A Wiccan ritual will often invoke the Lord and Lady, but Gardner firmly believed that humans also had power within their bodies, and part of magic was to draw out this power and use it.
  • ... only used for good. Harmful magic is strictly forbidden for a Wiccan! This is simply not true. The only condemnation I have ever found for this exists in the 161 Laws, and it is made very clear that Wiccans are only forbidden to use harmful magic (curses, hexes, or whatever you want to call it) because if they curse people, they will be killed. Since this is obviously not the case today, Wiccans can indeed curse people. That having been said, the practice is not particularly common, nor is it popular among Wiccans. If you feel it is wrong to use curses, you should simply avoid them - they are not in any way a necessary part of being Wiccan.

3.2 - Okay, fine. So what the hell is Wiccan magic, then?

Gardner's Eightfold Way of Magical Practice

    1. Meditation or Concentration - Pretty self-explanatory. This is used to focus one's intention, which is an extremely important part of Wiccan magic (and magic in general). Intention is a combination of dedication to one's purpose in casting a spell, concentration on one's exact goals, and belief in one's power. If one lacks any of these things, a spell will fail.

    2. Trance and Astral Projection - Astral projection is essentially projecting one's consciousness onto one's astral body (a non-physical vehicle for one's spirit), which exists on the astral plane, a sort of parallel spiritual world where the laws of physics don't always apply and essentially anything you can concieve of is possible.

    3. Rites, Chants, Spells, Runes, Charms - These are also pretty self-explanatory. Rites are, for the most part, traditional rituals practiced by covens, but spells can be borrowed from others or written by the spellcaster. Charms are physical objects such as amulets or talismans made to bring good fortune, protection, or power to the owner. Runes are letters in the Runic alphabet, which is germanic in origin. Wiccans may use them for anything from inscriptions on talismans to divination, but it's important to note that they are not using them as Germanic pagans did, since Germanic rune magic involves a sacrifice to the Germanic/Norse Gods.

    4. Incense, Drugs, and Wine - Incense is commonly used by New-Age types, but I'm sure many of you are flipping out at the mention of drugs and alcohol. In reality, mind-altering substances have been used for thousands of years as spiritual enhancements. It is, of course, absolutely imperative that one uses drugs and alcohol in a safe manner. It is also important to understand that not all drugs lead to the sort of experience you're looking for - cocaine is probably not going to bring you to a place of spiritual enlightenment, but salvia divinorum a drug which is both safe (seriously, read up on this, guys) and very much legal in much of the United States, has been considered sacred for centuries. Despite this, many people feel that using drugs is 'cheating' or ineffective. Bottom line: if you don't feel comfortable using drugs, don't use them. But they are open to Wiccans who feel comfortable using them - there is no 'Wiccan Law' against using drugs.

    5. Ecstatic Dance - This is one that you may never have heard of, even if you are familiar with the occult, which is unfortunate, because this one is very, very cool. The idea is to achieve, through dance, an altered state of consciousness, almost like what you get with drugs, but this is, you might say, a natural high. I'm completely unable to explain this properly, having never experienced it myself, so here is an excellent website on the subject.

    6. Blood Control and Breath Control - Another one you almost certainly haven't heard of. This involves controlling the flow of one's blood and the pattern on one's breath to achieve a trance. A very simple and common form involves taking deep, slow breaths, or sitting in one place while meditating, which messes with blood flow - you'll notice that a long time in the lotus position will make your feet numb. Wiccan rituals involving this are sometimes more extreme, since they make use of cords tied around limbs to cut off circulation. I will say right now - this is absolutely, without question, the single most dangerous thing on this list. Messing with breath and circulation without someone experienced to work with you is a very, very bad idea. Circulation problems can cause gangrene (a disease which will literally rot your limbs off) and asphyxiation is very possible for people practicing this. Please note that if you feel even slightly uncomfortable with this, or if you are under 18, you should probably avoid it. Again, I emphasize that this is not some requirement in order to be a Wiccan.

    7. The Scourge - Yes, this does indeed mean using a whip. It is not used to draw blood or cause serious injury, which is not to say that it won't hurt. It has a number of uses. It is used to purify (since strong emotion is a purifying thing) as well as to induce trance - the pain becomes dizzying after a while. There is also deep meaning within the ritual of the Scourge and the Kiss, the combination of Cruelty and Mercy.

    8. The Great Rite - Sex. You heard me. The Great Rite is ritualized sex between a man and a woman, in imitation of the Lord and Lady. People tend to think this is disgusting or wrong, though why they think that is anyone's guess. This act is symbolized by plunging the athame (a dagger) into the chalice, which is occasionally used in place of the real act for a variety of reasons. This alternative is generally refered to as the Great Rite 'in token' - so in a Book of Shadows, you might see something like, "Perform the Great Rite, in truth if possible, or in token." You dig?

3.3 - Whoa, whoa, whoa! Sex? Did you just say sex?

Let's go back to a little quote from Gardner, which you've already seen if you've actually read this entire beast of an article.

Gerald Gardner
The purpose of contacting the gods was to keep contact with the forces of life, and these were identical with the forces of magic and fertility.

People tend to see the words 'sex' and 'religion' and think LOLDANGER. They assume, for better or worse, that any religion involving sex must be all about manipulating young people into sleeping with creepy old guys. That's their perogative - I'm not going to tell you that Wicca isn't a dangerous religion, because I am not the Queen Of Deciding Whether Or Not Religions Are Okay Or Creepy Or Somewhere In Between.

I will say this - the Great Rite was not meant to be something performed whenever the mood hit. Just as Catholic Priests take on the role of Jesus when they give out Communion, a Wiccan Priest and Priestess take on the roles of the Lord and Lady during the Great Rite. Similarly, just as priests do not whip out the blood of christ every time they feel like getting a little buzzed, a Wiccan will not (or should not, at least) call every booty call a Great Rite.

3.3.1 - Okay, but since it's about fertility, what about homosexuals? And infertile people?

A tough question.

Firstly, I can tell you that there are no condemnations of such people, and those Wiccans I have met have had absolutely no problem with homosexuality, nor, as far as I know, do they think of infertile people as 'bad' in any way - though I imagine you might come across a homophobic Wiccan if you looked hard enough, since there's no law that says you can't be homophobic.. While fertility is an important aspect of Wicca, there is no condemnation of other forms of sexual expression just as there is no condemnation of other religions inherent in Wicca. Basically, while homosexuality is not included in Wiccan practice, it is not condemned because of this.

The bottom line is that in Wicca, fertility is seen as something that is, as I said, inextricably tied in with the cycle of life and the forces of magic itself. As long as someone is tied to life and magic, then I would say that the fertility rituals are absolutely relevant to them, and it would not be spritually dishonest for either a homosexual or an infertile person to participate.

A note from the brilliant TeaDidikai:


Homosexuality was the primary reason Alex split from Gardner's coven and when on to form the Alexandrian sect if I recall correctly. The religion was anti-homosexual initially, but sects have been created with legit lineage and changed this policy from inside the theology.

3.4 - Triste, you spelled 'magick' wrong, you twit!

Well, you guys fail. Generally, people will say that they spell magic as 'magick' because it makes people understand that they aren't talking about stage magic - the problem here is that people really don't think 'stage magic' when they hear people talking about Wicca and Witchcraft, so this is silly and pointless.

In reality, Aleister Crowley is the one who started the practice of spelling magic with an extra 'k.' Crowley is one of the better known occultists of the 20th century, which is probably why the practice stuck. As for why he added it, he had two reasons: firstly, because of the mystical significance of the number 6 (six letters in magick) and 11 (k being the 11th number of the alphabet) and also because he wanted to seperate his style of magic from the sort of thing practiced by the Golden Dawn.

A more detailed explanation:

Phoenixfire Lune Soleil
What's with the "k" in magic?

The most common response to this question would be that is separates real magic from that of stage magic, which I can understand. Yeah, ok, it's a fair reason. But even so, some people still argue that this reason isn't good enough and there's no point in changing the proper English spelling, just to make it sound "special".
The reason people get so uptight about different spellings is mainly when people take it ridiculously far, or just use it to sound cool. As for some examples of the wild spellings of magic, Crowley certainly didn't use "majick", "majic", "magik", "magique", "majik" or "magickian". It's magic or magick, simple.
The k is of a symbolic nature in Gematria: Hebrew numerology. Here is a link to a page that explains it, just scroll down to "THE GEMATRIA OF MAGIC AND MAGICK".
In essence:

A-Z : 1-26



44 = 4x11


Significance of 4: Magic is achieved through the fourfold Way: To Know; To Will; To Dare and to Be in the Silence.

Significance of 11: 11 is also an expression of duality in Numerology

Significance of 8: 8 is another number of Magic, for it is referred to Hermes, the Lord of Magic and Messenger of the Gods. Here the Magic is concerned with both Activity and Receptivite in an infinitude of Duality. Also 8 on its side is infinity.

Thank you once again, Phoenix. heart

As you may have gathered, there's really no reason for a Wiccan to add the extra 'k,' though Thelemites (followers of Thelema, founded by Crowley) may use it. It's not a huge deal to me, but don't be surprised if other people give you hell about it. It's often taken as a sign of ignorance. If nothing else, it can be an indication of where you learned about magic/witchcraft/Wicca. If I see someone using 'magick' and I feel like making an issue of it, I will usually ask them why they do so: those who answer that they want to seperate themselves from stage magic have probably learned from 'Pop Wicca' authors, which means they may not be on the same page as me or others on the forum. I'm not one to make a huge issue of it, and if you prefer to call it 'magick' because of the numerological significance, that's fine.

Another interesting note from TeaDidikai, this time on the subject of keeping 'real magic' and 'illusion' seperate:


I spell magik with a "k" to seperate magik from stage magik, Real from fake.

Historically, we know that pagan priests from the Hellenic and Egyptian cultures used mechanical devices to perform "miracles", that were designed to inspire awe in the hearts of their followers.

These are largely documented in the works of Heron of Alexandria, and were designed to cause ritual swords to pass through the neck of a drinking stone statue, for other statues to move and dance and for doors to open.

The idea that illusion and pagan magic have a restraining order against one another is one that I find absurd.

Yasmine Galenorn (while not Wiccan) has some amazing things to say about pagan ritual involving invocation. She suggests that there is a difference between Deep Play and Dramatic Play. Her terms ascribe inspired spiritual gnosis and the actions that arise from such as Deep Play, the psychodramatic dimension of the role of a leader of ritual. Dramatic Play is considered to be the base element of drama that people bring in with them- and it is the fuel that Mr. Darks thrive on. Dramatic Play is the sudden scream of an Attention Whore as she collapses to the ground saying she is being ******** by the Horned Lord when this is quite clearly not the case.

Deep Play has room for theatrics. The communal spiritual experience has room for flash powder, and illusions- and the fact that we know how they work makes them no less magical than the chalice on the alter or the wand in the hand. They still benefit those who came to worship by creating the same feelings in them that they inspired in the Greeks and Egyptians.

4 - So... Wiccans are Pagans, right?

Correct. All Wiccans are pagans, but not all pagans are Wiccans. There are other kinds of pagans, like Reconstructionists.

Furthermore, 'Wiccan' and 'Witch' are not interchangable terms. Not all Witches are Wiccans. Witches are, by definition, people who practice magic. And there are people of other religions who practice magic.

Also, not all pagans are witches, since not all pagans practice magic.

The Part That Wiccans Need To Read

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You think you know, but you have no idea. Well, probably.

1 - All right, what's all this about 'misconceptions'?

Well, it mostly has to do with the idea of 'Solitary Wiccans.' Chances are, if you're on this website and claiming to be Wiccan, you are A) under 18, and B) a solitary practitioner who has never been initiated into a coven.

That makes you 'not Wiccan,' and here's why:

The Five Things You Simply Must Be In Order To Be Wiccan:

Of course, the Craft of the Wica is not the only group which seeks to contact the Gods. There are other occult groups which use a similar technique, and their aims are the same, namely to bring through the Divine power to help, guide and uplift mankind at this dangerous and exciting turning-point in human history.

But, so far as I know, these groups generally work with the Egyptian and Greek Gods and Goddesses, and I cannot think that these contacts are as powerful here as they would be upon their native soil;

Therefore, you must believe in the Lord and Lady of the Isles in order to be considered Wiccan. Working with other deities puts you in the category of 'other occult groups.'

The Observer survey revealed that half of those who believe in an after-life 'believe explicitly in reincarnation' - which is a fundamental tenet of the Wica, as it happens; the religion which is called the 'old faith' by the witches

Therefore, you must believe in reincarnation in order to be a Wiccan. This is called a fundamental tenet by Gardner in this quote. You must also remember that for Wiccans, magic, fertility, and life itself are all interconnected - the idea of reincarnation is tied in with Wiccan magic and with fertility, which is a vastly important concept within Wicca. Death MUST be tied to birth because the Lord (the god of Death) MUST be in union with the Goddess.

The Wica seem to have been taught certain beliefs, most probably by the Kabalists, which they have incorporated into their own.

Therefore, a Wiccan must incorporate ritual relating to Kabalism. This is generally present in ceremonial magic (which incorporates both Christian and Jewish mysticism), an offshoot of which was obviously practiced by Gardner and is practiced by Wiccans today.

The Priests and Priestesses who directed these festivals were called the Wica, meaning 'The Wise Ones',

Therefore, a Wiccan MUST be a priest or a priestess. This is incredibly important - since Wiccans are, by definition, clergy, and therefore initiated, you CANNOT simply declare yourself a Wiccan. You have to be initiated as a Wiccan. There is no such thing as a 'lay Wiccan,' just like there is no such thing as a 'lay bishop.'

Therefore, the only way one can be a 'Solitary' practitioner is if one is initiated by the Lord/Lady - if this is the case with you, I am quite interested to know A) how the hell you managed that and B) how you even know that the deity you contacted was the Wiccan Lord and Lady, since their names are oathbound.

The fertility cult represented by the group in which Gardner had now been enrolled is one of these religions, claims to be the oldest, is called by its members the Wica.

Therefore, Wicca is a fertility cult. Understand what this means - it means that an incredibly important part of Wicca revolves around sex. It revolves around birth and fertility, the union of birth and death, the union of God and Goddess. If you are uncomfortable with the idea of a religion that focuses so heavily on sex, Wicca is not for you.

2 - Yeah, but who gives a s**t about what this Gardner guy says about Wicca?

Wicca was originally created by Gerald Gardner, or, at least, it was introduced to us by Gerald Gardner. The word 'Wicca' as applied to a religion was certainly applied to his religion first. When people say they are Wiccan, they are at the very least refering to a religion based on the religion that Gardner created.

Since Gardner was the one to introduce the term as applied to a religion, his religion is the only one that can properly be called 'Wicca.' Just as 'Christianity' was originally used to describe the religion revolving around Jesus Christ - now, if I called the worship of a three-headed monkey beast 'Christianity,' it would be wrong. The same applies for Wicca. Gardner took the word and said, "Wicca means 'x,'" and then another bunch of people took it and said, "Well, let's pretend that it means 'y.'" This is silly - if they didn't want to follow Gardner's religion, why would they take the word that he used?

2.1 - But I read otherwise!

This probably results from people's desire to make things as simple as physically possible. All this initiation stuff is too complicated - let's dumb it down!

Furthermore, people tend to be turned off by the idea of a religion solely for priests, simply because it's different from what they were raised with. Most people in America were raised Christian, and as such try to draw parallels between their religion and Christianity. However, Wicca is not Christianity, and it was never meant to be. The same analogies that work for Christians do not apply to Wiccans.

Essentially, the idea of 'Solitary Wiccans' stems from what people want, not what actually is.

2.2 - You have no right to tell anyone that their religion is untrue.

I'm not saying that their religions are wrong. I'm saying that they aren't Wiccan. If I met someone who believed in a three-headed moon Goddess, and called himself Christian, I would correct him as well. I wouldn't say that believing in a three headed moon goddess was wrong. But I would say that it's not Christian. I don't have a problem with eclecticism. I just have a problem with calling it Wicca.

Your religion is every bit as valid as anyone else's religion, but calling it 'Wiccan' is technically inaccurate. The correct term would be 'Eclectic Neopagan,' though many people prefer to call themselves merely 'Neopagans' or 'Eclectics.'

2.3 - I've been studying Wicca for 'x' amount of years. Are you telling me everything I've heard is wrong?

First of all, it doesn't matter how long you've been studying. Secondly, I'm not telling you that everything you've studied is wrong. I'm telling you that one thing you've studied is wrong: the name. Everything you've studied has been perfectly valid, but it's labeled incorrectly.

Furthermore, I'm not telling you that you're stupid for mislabeling it. Your information is wrong because you were misinformed. There's no fault in that. There is, however, fault in willful ignorance.

Important Links and s**t

Kudzu's thread on Wicca
PFRC (Pagan Fluffy Rehab Guild) - A great guild for all pagans. JOIN, damnit.
The Gardenarian Book of Shadows. A wealth of information on non-oathbound material.
Wicca: For The Rest Of Us. A great site, though I disagree with her on the issue of Wiccan laity.
Why Wiccans Suck - The original website is down, but it's been preserved here.
Fluffbunny FAQ

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Are you a fluffbunny? If so, you have to ask yourself one question - 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?

Wicca For The Rest Of Us
The first definition of a Fluffy Bunny is one who refuses to learn, refuses to think, and refuses to consider the possibility that they could possibly ever be wrong. Generally they find one book, author or website and follow it as if it were the holy word, denouncing anything that disagrees with it as obviously false. Fluffy Bunnies rarely get past the defense of "Because [insert favorite author here] says so." Sometimes they don't even get that far, responding to any and all criticism with something like, "You're just trying to persecute me!"

The second flavor of Fluffy Bunny is the type that's into Wicca mostly for show. This includes those who:

Are into Wicca to upset their parents and just plain "be different". This generally occurs during the teenage years, but its amazing how many of the Fluffy Bunnies never really grow out of this stage.

Think black clothes and huge pentagrams are appropriate Wiccan dress. You're allowed to wear anything you want. If goth's your thing, so be it. But those who dress that way do so out of personal choice, not because of their religion. Author Laurie Cabot is the absolute worst, dressing day to day in a long black robe which she describes as "traditional Wiccan garb." And before you load yourself down with ten pounds of silver pentagrams, imagine a Christian wearing an equivalent amount of religious jewelry. I think we'd all find that truly obnoxious.

Believe the God and/or Goddess are an embodiment of love and want nothing but what's best for us. Author Phyllis Curott, whom I otherwise respect, supports this outlook. For a religion that has no embodiment of evil, how in the name of balance can our gods be dedicated to good and benevolence?

Think picking up one book on Wicca ever makes them Wiccan. No one possesses the Divine and Ultimate Truth. Wiccans are seekers, and everything you read helps you further develop and understand your faith. You're not going to agree with everything you read, and that's fine. You should allow yourself the opportunity to choose what you accept and what you do not.

Think speaking a few words out of a book over a candle is how one makes magic. An entire library of books will not allow you to practice magic on their own. It involves belief, focus, practice, and serious intention. It also involves responsibility and a healthy dose of common sense. Laurie Cabot relates one student she had who after one workshop was going around town claiming to hex all of her enemies. Sorry, not likely.

Preach that Wicca is all "goodness and light". The corollary to this is the exclamation of "So-and-so couldn't have done that. She's Wiccan!" Like everyone else in the world, we are not saints.

Claims that Wicca is a "woman-thing". Both genders are equally welcome, which some women find to be a positive change from previous religious experiences, but Wicca is not about femininity. Some people will even say being a woman is the only reason they are a Wiccan. Wicca is a religion, not a political movement.

Those who took up Wicca to spite their Christian upbringing. We are not against any religion. Moreover, most of the accusations leveled at Christians in the name of Wicca were never committed against Wiccans, if indeed they were committed at all.

Overly ostentatious ceremonial tools. I have found that, in general, the more flashy (or even gaudy) the tools, the more interested the Wiccan is in appearances over any actual religion.

Quoting Margaret Murray. This woman's writing is the basis of a lot of our supposed history. The problem is her work was debunked decades ago and the only people who take her seriously are some Wiccans and Pagans, including some very influential writers. For more information, see Murray's Unlikely History.

Users of "White Magic". This term makes no sense. It's most often used by those who swear up and down that witchcraft is not evil and was in fact only called evil by the Church as part of a smear campaign. If that's the case, then why the clarification? The existence of white magic implies an existence in black magic. The simple fact is that magic, like any tool, is neither good nor evil, although it can be used toward either purpose.

Odd spellings of "magic". The most common misspelling is "magick", and the logic is that this spelling differentiates our magic from stage magic. Mostly, however, it just demonstrates that we can't spell. More extreme Fluffies will even speak of "majick" or (good grief) "majik". For more on why strange letters get added to "magic", check out Magic.

Being a newcomer to Wicca does not make one a Fluffy Bunny. All of us were new to this at one point in our lives. Moreover, having bad information likewise does not make one a Bunny. There's still a lot of bad information available in books and websites, and if that is the first information you find, how can you know it's bad? There's only a problem when one stubbornly refuses to question that original information regardless of the mountains of evidence put before them.


Other Questions

1 - Homosexuality in Wicca?

"A man may be taught only by a woman and a woman by a man, and women and women should not attempt these practices together. So be it ordained. "

Wicca is against homosexuality?

If, by homosexuality, you mean same sex teaching! *lol* Women Initiate men and men Initiate women. Frankly, there's a lot of male and female polarity symbolism within Wicca because it IS a fertility religion. I'd be lying if I said I haven't heard of homophobic Covens, but all the Covens I know personally don't care about your sexual personal life. But within the context of Wicca, you'd have to be taught by your opposing gender, even if you're not sexually attracted to them. I'm sure not attracted to my High Priest, and I'm married to a male!

Eh. It rather depends. Heterosexual imagery is certainly used within Wicca, and it's true that covens generally have women initiate men and vice versa, but there doesn't seem to be any specific condemnation of homosexual relations within a Wiccan's personal life outside the coven. The initiation rituals are highly symbolic, and the symbolism is heterosexual in nature, just as the symbolism between the Lord and Lady is, obviously, heterosexual in nature.

Essentially, these covens don't make moral judgements against homosexuality, but for the sake of balance, women initiate men and vice versa.

Words of Wisdom

Sigh.. Is it human nature to wish to dumb something down to the point that it takes less effort? Rather then accept that if you don't qualify under certain very set requirements you aren't something? Perhaps growing up in an innitiatory and mystery religion myself makes it easier for me to just accept that Initiation+Mysteries=Wiccan and that lacking any part of that formula does not still = Wicca. Teeny-bopper occultists. Teen witch kits. Blah. Cardboard fast food society triumphing over education, effort and dedication.

People want it easy. People want it spoon fed. That's why you have books that sell so well. And it's not even Wicca. It's quite a few major religions too. "If I accept Jesus as my Christ then I'm Saved and going to heaven. Now pass me my beer b***h." "If I pray to the God & Goddess, spin around 3 times clockwise, then I'm initiated and now Wiccan. Yay me!"

Eating kosher food doesn't make you Jewish. Doing ceremonial magic doesn't make you Wiccan. Practicing witchcraft doesn't make you Wiccan or even Pagan by default.



These new "branches" of wicca want to worship the same Gods as Trad Wicca right? That's all fine and dandy. But the way they do it is so entirely different from the original.

So Trad Wicca is Judaism. Worshipping a God with a lot of rules regarding weird stuff, ect...
This new stuff IS Christianity. Same God-a lot looser in the way to worship, a lot more varity in beliefs.

Its an entirely different religion, with its own name, but it still worships the same Gods. Elements are the same, but theres a lot thats new.


Reverend Smooth
Just doing my educational part. gonk

(Actually, it should be heirloom tomatoes. Because Gardenarian Wiccans only plant the seeds of the original tomatoes that were handed down to them in an unbroken line. Other secrets are the scourging of the tomato hornworms and the fivefold blast of garlic spray to deter aphids.)

(Yes. I garden. But I am not a Gardenarian.)


A Soporific

I mean it would really depend. I mean, if you are going to worship someone, you had better do what the diety demands of you. However, I would have to object to being strangled to fufill the commands of a Goddess who didn't even bother to have the courtesy of saying "Hi" first.

Hey, we all different ways of saying hello.

It's a clash of cultures, really, which I think is sad. YHVH sends plagues and fireballs, and Kali prefers strangulation. Perhaps someday we can live in a world where deities who strangle and deities who send flaming balls of death from the sky can work together in harmony.

Triste? I like your concept of harmony. It's akin to my concept of peace which is two angry tom cats shaken and launched at a stuffed chicken with a burlap and flypaper net to catch them.


Cursing people is a time-honored tradition, considered as a part of mystical working as healing people; it's part of why the mage/shaman/mara'kami/priest is feared so much. The power to heal is also the power to harm; you can't remove one from the other.

I've experienced this in learning psychology. When you know the weak points of a person, you can apply words to lead them toward health or tap that point until they disintegrate.

"Dark" magic or "black" magic is usually considered to be magic used to harm others. I disagree that it is "dark" or that magic not used to harm others is "light." Tools do not change color based on their use; the hammer used to kill some one does not turn black, nor does the spell used to harm one turn the spell black. Electricity that kills someone does not turn black, nor does magic used to kill someone turned black.

The majority of the time, when color or shade designations are used in regards to magic it is by neophytes who are attempting to do a dance of intimidation to those around them, and thus get respect. On the one hand I appreciate the behavior pattern, as it indicates they are a person to question and doubt, but on the other hand I wish they'd move away from such posing and turn into someone worthy of respect rather than just apeing it.

If I was to ask, "How is it that there are multiple truths, and why?" Would you be allowed to at least converse on it and theorize with me, or would that specific question by forbidden by the oaths you have sworn?
I'll give it a crack, although I'm not Wiccan myself.

When you go off and see a Catholic Baptism, there's three ways you can watch it. The first way is to watch a baby get his head wet. The second is to know the significants of color of the priest's robes, the position of the baby, the dousing of the candle, the pouring water on baby three times. etc. The last way is to not only understand Baptism spiritually through it's symbols, but also how this Baptism fits into the grander scheme of things. What it, the Baptism, means to the baby, the parents, the church and the community, through the rite itself and beyond it. To grok Baptism as the birth of a Catholic into the Church.

The reason the mysteries are revealed rather then simply known is because the student-teacher relationship keeps the rites at that third level of understanding, because the teacher is there to guide them. Wiccans don't want to see people doing #1 or #2 with their belief system.
Go, Triste-chan! You realize, of course, that this thread will eventually become the victim of millions of Fluffies storming it by force, and basically ignoring anything we say that doesn't agree with their skewed version of logic that makes culture rape okay, right?
Darin Rosewood
Go, Triste-chan! You realize, of course, that this thread will eventually become the victim of millions of Fluffies storming it by force, and basically ignoring anything we say that doesn't agree with their skewed version of logic that makes culture rape okay, right?

Just like every other time she has made this topic.
Threefold goddesses in modern times at least derive inspiration from ... well, anywhere, really. Three's a nice number, you know. And there's three spirits of the night in Russian folklore, three Norns, three sons of Noah, three aspects of the Trinitarian god, and so on. Threes all over the place.
...I lurve you. Please, I want to hug you. xp 3nodding
Wow, this is terrific. :3
And it seems I have joined you in permabanned-ness
Woot! Good to see the thread back up. ninja Although I think the fluffs are avoiding it.
You've made a wonderful thread.

I'm eager to see what the fluffs have to say to all that.
1.2 - Triste, your history is wrong. I thought...


But Wicca is older than Christianity!
Wicca was never male based! Ancient Wiccan societies were matriarchal!
Wicca was simply hidden for thousands of years, that's why there's no evidence of it!

If you have any other issues with my history, please post them in the thread, and they will be addressed.

Edit: Whoops, nevermind, they certainly work if you reach them through the root site. Keeping this post up because;

Otherwise, good job on this thread.
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Marvelously done thread.

Thanks for all the helpful information.

This is a triumphant achievement. I'm going to subscribe so that I'll have the link so I can just direct people here when they want to know about Wicca.
truly a teriffec thread
and i think your right no fluffys
lol i rool

Thank you, guys. I figured this would be a nice place to refer people to for a more detailed explanation of the Tea-infodump. Which I think I may need to work with a bit, because it's pretty short. Hm. Well, whatever.
I was waiting for you to remake this thread. Great work, as always.

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