Why should I believe in God?

[Arcoon Effox]

Xiam

I will say that belief in the supernatural is likely a product of human nature, our tendency to see patterns, to recognize ourselves in others, to find deeper meaning in things. Not to mention an overactive imagination.

So, pareidolia - that thing that makes people see faces on Mars, funny faces in mundane things, people in trees, Jesus in a dog's rear, and everything from horses to God to Godzilla in clouds.

[Arcoon Effox]

Wako Smitty no Yuuku

Nerdologist

XxRagingHomosexualxX

arrow Should I be like Pascal and believe for the sake of belief? Would that not be disingenuous?

It's not just for the sake of belief, but for the sake of salvation. Yes, it would be disingenuous.

One of the major problems with Pascal's Wager is that it can be used to support any religion which thinks belief is necessary for salvation.

Plus religion is a serious investment in time, thought, and belief. Pascal's Wager doesn't take into account that you've basically wasted years of your life if you pick the wrong one.

Considering that Pascal was a Christian Apologist who belonged to a sect of Catholicism known as Jansenism, which emphasized original sin, human depravity, the necessity of divine grace, and predestination, I'd say his "wager" is a fairly self-serving thing, which doesn't consider things like wasted time and energy to be an issue.

[Arcoon Effox]

Hierarchy of Angels

God is not threatening us, He is warning us. God wants to save all of mankind, so He came down as man and suffered for our sins.

So, what you're saying is that God sacrificed himself... to himself... in order to save us from his own judgment.

Sounds legit.

Hierarchy of Angels

Satan challenged God that because he so loved mankind, will they love Him back?

Fun Fact: There is no talk of what caused Satan to 'fall' anywhere in the Bible. This and much of the mythology about the character comes from outside sources such as the Origen, the Book of Enoch, and Milton's Paradise Lost.

Hierarchy of Angels

Satan leads the place of eternal torment, not God. Its a battle for souls, Satan uses sin to mislead mankind away from Gods love. And it is our part to choose to love God by admitting we need Him.

Sorry, but that simply doesn't work.

Okay, so, for this experiment, assume the Judeo-Christian stance on God, then consider the following:
1. An omnipotent entity has the power to remove all evil if it wants to.
2. An omniscient entity knows every way evil can come into existence, and every it could be prevented.
3. An omnibenevolent entity would want to remove all evil if it can.
4. From points 1-3: if an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent entity exists, then evil does not.
5. Assume temporarily that an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent entity exists.
6. From points 1-4: Evil does not exist.
7. From observation: Evil exists.
8. Points 5 and 6 form a contradiction. Therefore, the assumption (step 5) is false, and an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god cannot exist.

Hierarchy of Angels

As a Catholic, I learned that we are called to save our fellow men, to lead souls to Gods love because it is in our calling, to help God save souls.

No, you were told that it was our calling, based on a philosophy about such things, which is an important distinction that you're overlooking.

[The Herald of War]

Because God needs the moral support. He's sad that people just don't believe in him anymore. If they don't how can he believe in himself?!

[Mea quidem sententia]

Bogotanian

You wouldn't be the first to mention Calvinism here at M&R. I once was a Calvinist myself, even going by the name and appearance of John Calvin. Of course, I found monergism to be the most logical approach. A dead man can't raise himself, a blind man cannot will himself to see, and a leopard can't change its spots. I'll admit, it was bleak . . . at least for me.

A lack of belief in a god like Yahweh is rather liberating. Upon leaving, I felt a great sense of freedom to think, not be bound by doctrines, doctrines I couldn't be certain were true among the myriad of interpretations. I see no reason to believe in a god, OP, especially when you have various ideas of "god". All are equal in god-hypotheses. It all depends on your preferred flavor.

[Xiam]

Arcoon Effox

Xiam

I will say that belief in the supernatural is likely a product of human nature, our tendency to see patterns, to recognize ourselves in others, to find deeper meaning in things. Not to mention an overactive imagination.

So, pareidolia - that thing that makes people see faces on Mars, funny faces in mundane things, people in trees, Jesus in a dog's rear, and everything from horses to God to Godzilla in clouds.

It's similar, yes, but I think pareidolia is more of a sensory thing, isn't it? Visual and audial mostly, but sometimes others like smell.

Religion tends to fall under an intuitive connection. A bit more along the lines of... let's say conspiracy theories. People looking in places and making logical connections from one coincidence to another, and seeing some underlying force at work.

Or like physics.

[Bogotanian]

Mea quidem sententia

Bogotanian

You wouldn't be the first to mention Calvinism here at M&R. I once was a Calvinist myself, even going by the name and appearance of John Calvin. Of course, I found monergism to be the most logical approach. A dead man can't raise himself, a blind man cannot will himself to see, and a leopard can't change its spots. I'll admit, it was bleak . . . at least for me.

A lack of belief in a god like Yahweh is rather liberating. Upon leaving, I felt a great sense of freedom to think, not be bound by doctrines, doctrines I couldn't be certain were true among the myriad of interpretations. I see no reason to believe in a god, OP, especially when you have various ideas of "god". All are equal in god-hypotheses. It all depends on your preferred flavor.

Oh that was you? I think I saw some of your posts back in the day, I used to read a lot in ED without posting.

[azncereals]

When I was in high school, I was so heartbroken and distressed.
There was no one I could go to, so I'd just curl up in a corner and ask God, if he was there, to hold me.
Of course he didn't. It might have been all in my head, but there was enough hope to keep me going.
And now, there was enough thankfulness in all that experience to keep me from becoming completely atheist.

[Bogotanian]

XxRagingHomosexualxX

Bogotanian

Did you used to believe in God or the possibility of God during that time?

In God. That changed, however.

If I could ask, what changed your belief during that time?

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Yeah I noticed that. I think I'm the first person to bring up predestination, even though I don't agree with it. If everything was predestined, than people not believing would be in God's plan and only certain people would have God revealed to them. Also, that view states that everything that happens in the world is in God's plan, everything is predetermined and it couldn't be otherwise. It's an interesting discussion Armenianism and Calvinism, though I would say that for the Calvinist the world is bleaker because God predestined people to perish while choosing a select group. The free will side states that God would accept anyone that chooses him.

arrow Or he could have made everyone a believer. Then it would not be an issue.

He could have made it that there was no original sin in the first place, but according to the Bible it has happened and we live with the consequences.

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For the Christian, it is following the commandments in the Bible of how to live, and most importantly accepting Jesus as an atonement for sin. A follower of God is someone that wants to pursue God and change their life. I can believe that God exists or know about God, but still not like him or do what he says. A follower of God is someone that follows God, not just has knowledge about God (again the demons believe in God in the Bible, they just don't follow God and despise him).

arrow What commandments? The Ten Commandments? The revised version of said Commandments? Commandments that don't really decry things like crimes against humanity and focus heavily on "thou shalt have no other gods before me" because God is a jealous and petty god?

Sure the 10 Commandments are there to follow (though many of these are found everywhere in the sense of a legal code) but I was referring more towards sayings on how to live by Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount.

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I'm going off of what the Bible says about God's character.

Then I would like to punch him in the face, if he is as the Bible says he is. Not deserving of my worship, my respect or adoration. A total spoil-sport and a grade A douchebag.

As someone who formerly believed in God, when did you begin thinking that about God? Was it from personal experience or from people pointing out verses about killing off Canaanites in the Bible?

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I've said my view on this before, and it's not a popular one. God is also a judge that demands payment for sin, and he judged the people of Soddom and Gomorrah and the people during the flood. This sounds harsh to us. But another attribute of God is love and mercy. Technically, if God was acting solely from the judge and holy standpoint, all sinners would die (the whole world). A Christian believes that it is only by God's mercy that there aren't more Soddom and Gomorrah's going on and that people are given time to repent and follow God.

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arrow When a person steals, they get put in jail. They don't get their hand chopped off or their eyes plucked out or their tongue cut out. The punishment should fit the crime/transgression. But God just executes everyone, and doesn't come down and tells the people to check themselves. And even then, that wouldn't be an excuse.

What punishments should fit various crimes/transgressions in your opinion? Are not some modern punishments (such as the death penalty) considered inhumane? Also, there is a theme running throughout the Bible of God sending various prophets to warn and tell the people to repent, but they don't listen and destruction falls. Saying that he doesn't tell people to check themselves is ignoring a large part of the Bible.

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arrow A loving and merciful God cannot at the same time be a despotic filicide. The two cancel each other out. Either he is an uncaring father who kills his children dead when they displease him, or he is a good and loving father. Children do not learn when they're hit. Children learn by having things explained to them.

There are many instances of God teaching people how to live in the Bible. The problem (and I've said this before) is that people don't think that "sin" exists and they don't realize how much their actions offend God in the Bible. Also, God can be a God of love as well as a judge. People like to think that a God can't be those things or can be either or, but it is a faulty understanding of love (more like society's understanding of love being that if God loved us, bad things wouldn't happen).

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arrow Then believers aren't seeing the world and what is going on. There are places falling to pieces and innocents being blown to smithereens. If that is not proof that if there is a God, he is an uncaring God, I do not know what is. Yes, let's be thankful that he is not raining fire down on us, but at the End of Times, he will destroy the 'wicked' according to him... it's like being thankful to a tornado for hitting only some cities.

You said according to him. It's obvious that you disagree with the Bible of God's view of morality compared to your own. It all comes back to the Problem of evil for many people.

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Stoning was used as a death penalty for people including criminals. In that context I don't think it's any worse than any other forms of death penalty. I also don't think it's a big deal mentioning stoning after you mentioned that God destroyed cities and drowned people, we've established that he judges people.

arrow Stoning is still a big deal.

In some Islamic countries yes, but the practice has largely fallen out of favor with many countries. Also would you say that hanging someone or lethal injection is a more humane way of death than stoning? People still kill people. Death still occurs.

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Also the slavery practiced at the time was different from recent forms of slavery. It wasn't a racial issue and could be compared to indentured servitude. If someone owed a debt, they could pay it off by working for someone, and at the end of the time frame they are free to go.

arrow Don't care. Still wrong. And the Bible said nothing to criticise it.

You should read Philemon, the story about a possibly escaped slave Onesimus. Paul writes about forgiveness and reconciliation, stating to his master that he should no longer be seen as a slave, but as a beloved brother.

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Also prisoners of war often became slaves as they did in other societies. Although to comment on slavery, I believe that people in the past tried to cite passages of slavery for justification (such as Europeans in America). If you haven't guessed already I have issues with Calvinists.

They viewed themselves as the elect, or God's chosen people, and everyone else? They often treated the natives and Africans as the Canaanites were treated, people to be used because they were doomed anyways. I don't hold to that view at all and see their actions as evil. Thankfully, due to the help of Christian abolitionists, slavery was finally ended.

arrow Fair comment. Still f-d up that the Bible said stuff about how to keep a slave and punish them or w/e. Not clear on that last part.

The last part about abolitionists? You should read about abolitionism and the Second Great Awakening in the United States.

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What do you think morality is and where do you get your own morals from?

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Morality is a v complex concept. For example, I know that morality isn't ethnic cleansing like the early tribes were suggested to do allegedly by God and according to Biblical mythology. It isn't killing all of Egypt's first born. It isn't casting out people out of Paradise for acquiring knowledge from a tree you put right in front of them.
I know it isn't setting up a dogmatic institution that makes us feel ashamed of being human and having natural, healthy, harmless urges to be expressed with consenting adults. I know it isn't spreading fear about contraceptives and about abortion and about bodily autonomy.

Why not? Do you have a universal system of morality in mind that everyone should follow to be considered good or bad?

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What I know morality to be is very different from anything the Bible or any of the Judeo-Christian religions have taught me. I know morality is based on compassion--on fighting for the rights of those whose fights are taken away. On sticking up for equality and for fairness. On not deeming people to be damned or lesser than one.

I am a Christian and I agree with those things. I agree that everyone is equal, that no one is damned or lesser than another, and that compassion is a good thing.

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Morality is doing what is right...not taking advantage of others, not lying, not killing. Not burning people and heretics in the name of God.

What do you say is right? The Bible speaks against taking advantage of others, lying and killing. Are you perhaps looking at the actions of some Christians or people that claimed to be Christian throughout history (with the heretics thing) and applying that standard to God?

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If God inspired the Bible, and it is his word, then I have to say that he is the most amoral, reprehensible, revolting, unworthy being to have ever existed, if he exists. He is truly a cautionary tale and embodies the utmost Pride. Pride that not even Lucifer could have topped. Because God is arrogant and all-powerful. But he is also perfect. And by being perfect he is vain, and he is dead.

It's interesting that you mention Pride, because that seems to be the characteristic that God detests the most in people (Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud. Proverbs 16:19, Matt 20:16 So the last will be first and the first will be last). Pride is arguably the sin from which other sins flow, the root of all evil and the original sin. God does not look favorably on the proud. The Bible does mention that God is a jealous God. Being jealous for something that belongs to you is not a sin. The problem is that people are often jealous or envious of things that don't belong to them (someone else's possessions etc).

[PoshPix]

If you are a believer, why do you think I should believe? Give me a good reason. Like, really good.

Why do you think God or any god cares whether I believe in them or not?

God is there if and when you want to believe its your choice. people convert from not believing to believing all the time vice versa God would love you all the same


Isn't God all-powerful and all-knowing?
Does this not mean that he intended for me to be an atheist?

Okay why do people think that gods responsible for everything they are ? It's called free will there are no strings attached. If you want to be an atheist that's your choice. You think gods going to come down and put you over his leg and give you a swift spanking? It's god he's got better things to do.

you intended for you to be an athiest that's a personal choice.Do ,I think anyone's going to send you to hell for it probably not .. Do I think your going to hell if your murder someone ..yes for sure. You want to go commit a crime that's your choice .

Gods already hit the restart button flooded the world he promised never to do it again . Do I think he's responsible for Natural disasters no I think that is just nature doing its thing.

You were made in his image ...Can an athiest say ' I am not a human ...and I was made in no ones image ' ...look around you ...everyone has two arms and two legs and a head unless malformations in the womb. Which is just the way it is don't ask me why people are born the way they are they just are

Jesus died on the cross ..becaues people could not fallow the tend commandments. We are wonderfully flawed people. He gave us two commandments

“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."

But that first ones up to you free will ..god can't make you do anything

and second

‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

Pretty much means treat people like you would treat yourself

Jesus died for our sins through him we are forgiven

god new we were going to screw up
Should I be like Pascal and believe for the sake of belief? Would that not be disingenuous?

Well science tells us those who have a belief in a higher power live longer and recover faster. Then those who don't.
You can look this stuff up

Can I be a moral human being and also be a non-believer?

Yeah I have friends who are atheist perfectly moral people. Their some of the best people I know

Its up to you free will your choice

[Rumblestiltskin]

xtigsx

Why do you think God or any god cares whether I believe in them or not?

Because certain believers are pretty adamant about pestering people who believe in different gods or no gods that their god is the only one that matters.

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God is there if and when you want to believe its your choice.

Can you demonstrate this?

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people convert from not believing to believing all the time vice versa

Which isn't a convincing argument, since people can change their minds for very bad reasons...

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God would love you all the same

Again, can you demonstrate this? Also, which god are we talking about? Cause if we're talking about the Abrahamic god....yeah, not so much. In fact, going off his book, he's kind of a psychotic d**k.

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Okay why do people think that gods responsible for everything they are ? It's called free will there are no strings attached.

Except, depending on what qualities you attribute to god, we may not have free will. In fact, can you even demonstrate that we have free will at all...

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If you want to be an atheist that's your choice. You think gods going to come down and put you over his leg and give you a swift spanking? It's god he's got better things to do.

I think you're kind of missing the point of the questions. OP is asking for evidence...because, should someone be able to prove that a god exists, it would be a pretty big deal. It would also, possibly, provide insight to how we should live to avoid being possibly tortured eternally....

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you intended for you to be an athiest that's a personal choice.

Not really...do you CHOOSE to believe 2+2=4? No. You are convinced by the evidence. Same thing here.

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Do ,I think anyone's going to send you to hell for it probably not .. Do I think your going to hell if your murder someone ..yes for sure. You want to go commit a crime that's your choice .

Can you demonstrate that hell even exists? And, while it's great that you don't believe that people are punished eternally for petty finite crimes, there are those that would disagree with you...so why should we take your views on hell more seriously than someone else's?

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Gods already hit the restart button flooded the world he promised never to do it again. Do I think he's responsible for Natural disasters no I think that is just nature doing its thing.

A global flood never happened...at least, that's what we can tell from the fossil record.

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You were made in his image

Again, demonstrate this. And while you're at it, specify which image we were made in, as the "image" of man has changed a lot during the evolutionary process.

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...Can an athiest say ' I am not a human ...and I was made in no ones image ' ...look around you ...everyone has two arms and two legs and a head unless malformations in the womb. Which is just the way it is don't ask me why people are born the way they are they just are

So, the reason why we all look pretty similar is because we evolved...animals of the same species tend to look pretty similar.

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Jesus died on the cross

Another point you'll have to demonstrate.

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..becaues people could not fallow the tend commandments. We are wonderfully flawed people. He gave us two commandments

“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."

Well, you're also ignoring the 76 laws that god put in the bible that you're also supposed to obey (such as don't eat shrimp, don't eat pork, don't have gay sex, don't help people find their lost property, don't cut your hair, don't shave, don't wear garments made of two different fabrics), not to mention all the other things god says he's cool with (such as all his commands regarding slavery...not a one of them being "don't ******** do it"...and his punishments for rape victims), and that's ignoring the parts where god tells people specifically to break commandments he made (like saying not to kill...and also telling people to wipe out entire groups of people), and, by the way, Jesus also says that these laws still apply, and will continue to apply until the end of time....but let's forget all of that for a second. Can you even demonstrate that your god exists so that we should obey this ******** up list?

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But that first ones up to you free will ..god can't make you do anything

Then he's not all-powerful...

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and second

‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

Pretty much means treat people like you would treat yourself

Unless god's really pissy and wants you kill all the men, women, boys, and livestock, and then take the virgins for yourself...

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Jesus died for our sins through him we are forgiven

Do you just not understand that preaching isn't evidence? You have to actually demonstrate your claims. And for someone who essentially acted like god doesn't care if someone's an atheist, you're making a lot of claims to the contrary, here...

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god new we were going to screw up

And if he were all-loving, wouldn't he do something to fix that? You know...something that would actually work...because none of the "fixes" he had in the bible actually fixed anything. If anything, he just made the system more convoluted.

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Well science tells us those who have a belief in a higher power live longer and recover faster. Then those who don't.
You can look this stuff up

Which doesn't do anything to validate the claim. In fact, if you looked further into the study, you'd see that just having a positive mind set helps you recover faster...regardless of theistic beliefs.

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Yeah I have friends who are atheist perfectly moral people. Their some of the best people I know

Its up to you free will your choice

Again, while it's cool that you aren't as pushy as the more fundamentalist christians, free will is a non-factor in this discussion. OP is asking for a reason to believe...not if it's okay that he doesn't believe.

Also, you may want to use the quote buttons. One, it gives a notice to the person you're responding to. And secondly, it makes your post easier to read, as no one has to decipher which parts are you talking and which parts are what you are responding to.

[PoshPix]

ah I should have looked at your signature first thing we are not having this conversation then

[Rumblestiltskin]

xtigsx

ah I should have looked at your signature first thing we are not having this conversation then

There are two types of trolls...mine is referring to the fairy tale creature...which is kind of clear from the fact that my name is a play on another type of fairy tale....

Even so, nothing of what I posted in that post could be considered trolling. They are directly responding to your post...dismissing it because of the source is kind of dishonest.

[Lightning the Lulu]

azncereals

When I was in high school, I was so heartbroken and distressed.
There was no one I could go to, so I'd just curl up in a corner and ask God, if he was there, to hold me.
Of course he didn't. It might have been all in my head, but there was enough hope to keep me going.
And now, there was enough thankfulness in all that experience to keep me from becoming completely atheist.

There's a term for this.

[K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a]

XxRagingHomosexualxX

arrow If you are a believer, why do you think I should believe? Give me a good reason. Like, really good.
Believers are believers because God has convinced us to be.

"For God's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we no longer do so. All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation."

God doesn't have to "sell" the Gospel to you, because as a human being you already desperately need it. The old covenant has already condemned you, but the new covenant offers to redeem you. The people who are aware of these needs in themselves and are humble enough to seek God out, for many reasons, naturally grow in their faith and see more and understand more of scripture than someone unwilling ever can.

arrow Why do you think God or any god cares whether I believe in them or not? Isn't God all-powerful and all-knowing? Does this not mean that he intended for me to be an atheist?
Christ's death on the cross has put to death all sin in the world; he paid for your sins regardless of whether or not you have accepted that fact. Whether or not you recognize that and give it value (which it deserves) is your choice, but until you go through that process of acceptance and repentance with God you will not be saved.

arrow Should I be like Pascal and believe for the sake of belief? Would that not be disingenuous?
Pascal believed because he loved God and understood him. His personal belief is not reflected in what he proposed as a wager -- the wager was intended to get non-believers to think about what eternity will look like for them and to weigh the profits and costs of that unbelief.

arrow Can I be a moral human being and also be a non-believer?
According to the bible, no, you are never going to be a "good" human being. But through Christ, God will still count you as moral and righteous once you are saved.

Believing "in God" is not the same as accepting salvation through Christ. Vague theism doesn't get you into heaven either.