why is the catholic church so classist?

[icicle weapon]

Inscriven

stealthmongoose

Honey of the South

stealthmongoose

Young King under Heaven

Lifestyle? Like what?

Parish priests have been known to refuse baptisms and other services if parents use Birth Control, are gay, don't tithe, etc.

Bill Maher is one such individual who had parents, one of which was excommunicated/not acknowledged by the church because they chose to use Birth Control.

If just using birth control is a reason to be excommunicated, then I should have been a while ago. I'm Catholic myself, though if left to my own devices I would eventually lapse.

To the OP: I would love to know what Diocese you are a part of if possible, because I have never heard of that stuff happening in mine, and I live in a region of the US that's known for being intolerant as a whole.

While I may be sketchy on the details about excommunication/ostracization/refusal of certain services, the fact remains that arbitrary reasons are being given on case-by-case basis for certain parishes or areas within Catholic spheres of influence.

I myself was refused baptism as an infant from a Parish in Long Beach, California because the priest there did not recognize my parents as parishioners, even though my grandmother had lived her life there, raised my father there, and done great work for the parish all her life.

On the note about Bill Maher, I really think it's that he was refused to be baptized on the grounds of his parents using birth control.

Regardless of the prejudice, the reasons seem to remain quite arbitrary. While it's swept under the rug as not part of catholic policy, I would like to see some accountability in situations where these grievances occur, lest we find ourselves in the "shuttling priests around" solution that the vatican seems to hold so dear.

Priests have a right to deny baptism if the priest feels that the child will not be raised with proper Catholic teachings due to the parents behaviors/attitudes/etc. Some parishes around here would require the parents to be parishoners at least for six months before baptising their children. So even if say your grandparents and your dad were raised in that church, that wouldn't necessarily mean your parents are automatically kosher if they weren't established parishoners themselves, which is how i'd imagine they would gauge how "safe" you'd be being raised Catholic.

In Maher's case, it's pretty straightforward that his parents rejected Catholic teachings so they were a threat to Bill's spiritual growth as a Catholic, so they refused them.

Catholic Church believes that we are born with original sin, and that baptism gets rid of that. Since people who are not baptized have no been absolved of their original sin, then they are not allowed into Heaven.
They also believe Jesus loves everyone.

If you truly believe that someone will not gain access to this Heaven unless baptized, you are a sick freak for denying that to a child.

Also, you are not preaching Jesus's word, which is "love everyone".


Basically being a Catholic Priest, I'm making an assumption that one(a Catholic Preach) truly believes the teachings of Catholicism, and therefore truly believes that these unbaptized people are going to spend eternity in Purgatory. And I think it's awful that you can believe in such a thing and then deny the right of "Heaven" to someone based on their parents or any reason. Especially since the teachings of the Jesus were to "Not judge thy neighbor", and to "Love everyone", and that no one is excluded from Jesus's/God's love.


I am indifferent on the idea of religion and whatnot, but if Jesus was a real man and did live by these virtues, and is watching down on this from his throne in Heaven, wouldn't you think he'd be ashamed of these practices done in his name?

[Fireweed_honey]

It looks to me like you are getting Dioceses and local church mixed up. The Diocese is like the government over a section of churches. When a priest of a church denies a baptism, it is the priest and not the Dioceses. Unless the Bishop or Archbishop in charge of that area makes the decree, it's normally the priest's call.

As for not baptizing a baby, the only examples you provided that I can see as an excuse were: Not married in the Catholic church, parents not going to church every week, and one parent not Catholic. Did you know that in order to be baptized, the parents have to promise to raise the child in the Catholic church? So, if the couple is not married in the church (and probably not a member of said church) they would be denied. If the couple says they don't plan on raising the child in the church, they will be denied. If the couple is not a registered member of the church (at least one parent must be registered) they will be denied. I'm Catholic, and any child of mine would be denied at this point because I am not registered at the Church I attend.

The same goes for marriage. Not everyone can be married in the Catholic church. There are rules. And one of those rules is to be Catholic and abide by the laws of the Church.

[icicle weapon]

Fireweed_honey

It looks to me like you are getting Dioceses and local church mixed up. The Diocese is like the government over a section of churches. When a priest of a church denies a baptism, it is the priest and not the Dioceses. Unless the Bishop or Archbishop in charge of that area makes the decree, it's normally the priest's call.

As for not baptizing a baby, the only examples you provided that I can see as an excuse were: Not married in the Catholic church, parents not going to church every week, and one parent not Catholic. Did you know that in order to be baptized, the parents have to promise to raise the child in the Catholic church? So, if the couple is not married in the church (and probably not a member of said church) they would be denied. If the couple says they don't plan on raising the child in the church, they will be denied. If the couple is not a registered member of the church (at least one parent must be registered) they will be denied. I'm Catholic, and any child of mine would be denied at this point because I am not registered at the Church I attend.

The same goes for marriage. Not everyone can be married in the Catholic church. There are rules. And one of those rules is to be Catholic and abide by the laws of the Church.

marriage is different.
I'm saying, if Catholics believe that Jesus loves everyone and does not judge, and that you need to be baptized to get into Heaven, it is cruel to deny that to an innocent child.
It's like saying, "Jesus doesn't actually love everyone. He only loves Church-going Catholics"

[Fireweed_honey]

icicle weapon

Fireweed_honey

It looks to me like you are getting Dioceses and local church mixed up. The Diocese is like the government over a section of churches. When a priest of a church denies a baptism, it is the priest and not the Dioceses. Unless the Bishop or Archbishop in charge of that area makes the decree, it's normally the priest's call.

As for not baptizing a baby, the only examples you provided that I can see as an excuse were: Not married in the Catholic church, parents not going to church every week, and one parent not Catholic. Did you know that in order to be baptized, the parents have to promise to raise the child in the Catholic church? So, if the couple is not married in the church (and probably not a member of said church) they would be denied. If the couple says they don't plan on raising the child in the church, they will be denied. If the couple is not a registered member of the church (at least one parent must be registered) they will be denied. I'm Catholic, and any child of mine would be denied at this point because I am not registered at the Church I attend.

The same goes for marriage. Not everyone can be married in the Catholic church. There are rules. And one of those rules is to be Catholic and abide by the laws of the Church.

marriage is different.
I'm saying, if Catholics believe that Jesus loves everyone and does not judge, and that you need to be baptized to get into Heaven, it is cruel to deny that to an innocent child.
It's like saying, "Jesus doesn't actually love everyone. He only loves Church-going Catholics"

There are rules. In order to be baptized, one must follow the rules. No church, Catholic, Protestant, or what have you, just willy-nilly baptizes people. It's a covenant and a contract between that person (or in the case of the baby, the parents of that person) and the church to live by the rules of that church. By baptizing a child in the Catholic faith, the family is saying they are entering a contract in which they will abide by the rules, among them is attend mass and live as much a Catholic life as they possibly can and be registered in that church.

Now, say for instance, as a Catholic, I get the weird whim to have my child baptized Mormon. I'm not Mormon. I'm not registered at any Mormon Temple. I don't plan to raise my child Mormon. I just happen to attend once in a while with a friend of mine. It would be sacrilegious to both faiths to get my child baptized Mormon. For one, I don't believe in the tenants of that faith, and two, I'm not planning on raising my child Mormon. If I brought my child to the nearest Mormon Temple, they'd tell me no. Is it classist? No. It's the rules, pure and simple.

As I said, some of the examples of the OP were more of a priest deciding a factor. Now, we don't know what was said, or if the OP actually knows all the examples presented. But the fact remains, there are rules. And those rules state: You must be a registered member of the Church you want your baby baptized in (1), You must agree to raise your baptized child as Catholic (meaning weekly mass, CCD classes, sacrament classes, whole nine yards), and You must be willing to live a Catholic life as example (the same mass and sacraments). An answer of no to any of these will get you denied. After all, why baptize a baby into a faith you are not willing to fully participate in?

The only exception is to the first rule, in which if you have a baby in one state, all your family live in another state, there is paperwork that will allow you to baptize your baby in your family's Catholic church (assuming your family is Catholic) so everyone can attend.

[icicle weapon]

Fireweed_honey

icicle weapon

Fireweed_honey

It looks to me like you are getting Dioceses and local church mixed up. The Diocese is like the government over a section of churches. When a priest of a church denies a baptism, it is the priest and not the Dioceses. Unless the Bishop or Archbishop in charge of that area makes the decree, it's normally the priest's call.

As for not baptizing a baby, the only examples you provided that I can see as an excuse were: Not married in the Catholic church, parents not going to church every week, and one parent not Catholic. Did you know that in order to be baptized, the parents have to promise to raise the child in the Catholic church? So, if the couple is not married in the church (and probably not a member of said church) they would be denied. If the couple says they don't plan on raising the child in the church, they will be denied. If the couple is not a registered member of the church (at least one parent must be registered) they will be denied. I'm Catholic, and any child of mine would be denied at this point because I am not registered at the Church I attend.

The same goes for marriage. Not everyone can be married in the Catholic church. There are rules. And one of those rules is to be Catholic and abide by the laws of the Church.

marriage is different.
I'm saying, if Catholics believe that Jesus loves everyone and does not judge, and that you need to be baptized to get into Heaven, it is cruel to deny that to an innocent child.
It's like saying, "Jesus doesn't actually love everyone. He only loves Church-going Catholics"

There are rules. In order to be baptized, one must follow the rules. No church, Catholic, Protestant, or what have you, just willy-nilly baptizes people. It's a covenant and a contract between that person (or in the case of the baby, the parents of that person) and the church to live by the rules of that church. By baptizing a child in the Catholic faith, the family is saying they are entering a contract in which they will abide by the rules, among them is attend mass and live as much a Catholic life as they possibly can and be registered in that church.

Now, say for instance, as a Catholic, I get the weird whim to have my child baptized Mormon. I'm not Mormon. I'm not registered at any Mormon Temple. I don't plan to raise my child Mormon. I just happen to attend once in a while with a friend of mine. It would be sacrilegious to both faiths to get my child baptized Mormon. For one, I don't believe in the tenants of that faith, and two, I'm not planning on raising my child Mormon. If I brought my child to the nearest Mormon Temple, they'd tell me no. Is it classist? No. It's the rules, pure and simple.

As I said, some of the examples of the OP were more of a priest deciding a factor. Now, we don't know what was said, or if the OP actually knows all the examples presented. But the fact remains, there are rules. And those rules state: You must be a registered member of the Church you want your baby baptized in (1), You must agree to raise your baptized child as Catholic (meaning weekly mass, CCD classes, sacrament classes, whole nine yards), and You must be willing to live a Catholic life as example (the same mass and sacraments). An answer of no to any of these will get you denied. After all, why baptize a baby into a faith you are not willing to fully participate in?

The only exception is to the first rule, in which if you have a baby in one state, all your family live in another state, there is paperwork that will allow you to baptize your baby in your family's Catholic church (assuming your family is Catholic) so everyone can attend.

i understand them denying marriage.
but in a religion that preaches everyone is equal and that Jesus loves everyone, it is cruel to deny that to a child who cannot make his/her own decisions.
If this were any other service, this would be a human rights violation. It would be discrimination based on family status.
But religions are exempt from normal laws.

[Ariel Yardena Davidson]

I might want to argue that the classism started around the time of Constantine coming to power. Christianity had (and still has) a thing for trying to put itself at the lowest rung and emphasize its martyrs so to preach humility as important. The decorated church shines like heaven, a holy house worthy to be visited by the triune Godhead. All of the gold and art intended to remind us that we are comparatively plain and unfascinating and thus deserving to be low and humbled, but blessed for this humbling were they because it meant that they would be welcomed readily into heaven.

Of course, there was a problem with false humility.

[Fireweed_honey]

icicle weapon

Fireweed_honey

icicle weapon

Fireweed_honey

It looks to me like you are getting Dioceses and local church mixed up. The Diocese is like the government over a section of churches. When a priest of a church denies a baptism, it is the priest and not the Dioceses. Unless the Bishop or Archbishop in charge of that area makes the decree, it's normally the priest's call.

As for not baptizing a baby, the only examples you provided that I can see as an excuse were: Not married in the Catholic church, parents not going to church every week, and one parent not Catholic. Did you know that in order to be baptized, the parents have to promise to raise the child in the Catholic church? So, if the couple is not married in the church (and probably not a member of said church) they would be denied. If the couple says they don't plan on raising the child in the church, they will be denied. If the couple is not a registered member of the church (at least one parent must be registered) they will be denied. I'm Catholic, and any child of mine would be denied at this point because I am not registered at the Church I attend.

The same goes for marriage. Not everyone can be married in the Catholic church. There are rules. And one of those rules is to be Catholic and abide by the laws of the Church.

marriage is different.
I'm saying, if Catholics believe that Jesus loves everyone and does not judge, and that you need to be baptized to get into Heaven, it is cruel to deny that to an innocent child.
It's like saying, "Jesus doesn't actually love everyone. He only loves Church-going Catholics"

There are rules. In order to be baptized, one must follow the rules. No church, Catholic, Protestant, or what have you, just willy-nilly baptizes people. It's a covenant and a contract between that person (or in the case of the baby, the parents of that person) and the church to live by the rules of that church. By baptizing a child in the Catholic faith, the family is saying they are entering a contract in which they will abide by the rules, among them is attend mass and live as much a Catholic life as they possibly can and be registered in that church.

Now, say for instance, as a Catholic, I get the weird whim to have my child baptized Mormon. I'm not Mormon. I'm not registered at any Mormon Temple. I don't plan to raise my child Mormon. I just happen to attend once in a while with a friend of mine. It would be sacrilegious to both faiths to get my child baptized Mormon. For one, I don't believe in the tenants of that faith, and two, I'm not planning on raising my child Mormon. If I brought my child to the nearest Mormon Temple, they'd tell me no. Is it classist? No. It's the rules, pure and simple.

As I said, some of the examples of the OP were more of a priest deciding a factor. Now, we don't know what was said, or if the OP actually knows all the examples presented. But the fact remains, there are rules. And those rules state: You must be a registered member of the Church you want your baby baptized in (1), You must agree to raise your baptized child as Catholic (meaning weekly mass, CCD classes, sacrament classes, whole nine yards), and You must be willing to live a Catholic life as example (the same mass and sacraments). An answer of no to any of these will get you denied. After all, why baptize a baby into a faith you are not willing to fully participate in?

The only exception is to the first rule, in which if you have a baby in one state, all your family live in another state, there is paperwork that will allow you to baptize your baby in your family's Catholic church (assuming your family is Catholic) so everyone can attend.

i understand them denying marriage.
but in a religion that preaches everyone is equal and that Jesus loves everyone, it is cruel to deny that to a child who cannot make his/her own decisions.
If this were any other service, this would be a human rights violation. It would be discrimination based on family status.
But religions are exempt from normal laws.

You're not reading what I'm writing. The baptism rules for Catholics are the same rules that any other religion known to man has about the sacraments/perks of their religion.
1. You (or at least one parent) must be a member of said faith. Some religions may be more strict with that and require both parents be part of the faith.
2. You (or the parents) promise to follow the tenants of said faith and live life according to the laws set forth by said faith.

And, as I asked before: Why would you baptize a baby in a faith you do not wish to follow? Do you go to Jewish Synagogs and try to enter your child there if you do not care for nor plan to follow the Jewish faith? How about Muslim temples? Or Hindu temples? If you do not follow the faith, why push your kid into it?

NO faith just willy-nilly baptizes (or insert other method of entering said faith) without expecting the person being brought into the faith will live in accordance to the tenants of that faith. I can't go and decide to be come a Hindu and then go out and have a cheeseburger after promising to follow the tenants of their faith that include not eating cow. If I tell them, "Yeah, I totally want to be a Hindu, but I'm going to scarf cheeseburgers and do whatever I feel like and call myself a Hindu in name only" they won't let me in their club. Religion and faith are very serious matters to the people who live it.

Seriously, it's not being classist, it's being realistic. EVERY faith known to man expects you to follow their tenants when you join. If it's the case of a baby, they expect the parents to follow their tenants. If the parents say they won't, then it's a no go.

[stealthmongoose]

Cecilia Davidson

I might want to argue that the classism started around the time of Constantine coming to power. Christianity had (and still has) a thing for trying to put itself at the lowest rung and emphasize its martyrs so to preach humility as important. The decorated church shines like heaven, a holy house worthy to be visited by the triune Godhead. All of the gold and art intended to remind us that we are comparatively plain and unfascinating and thus deserving to be low and humbled, but blessed for this humbling were they because it meant that they would be welcomed readily into heaven.

Of course, there was a problem with false humility.

Not to mention that siphoning off a little bit of cash from the coffers of the humble is a very lucrative business in catholicism, church or otherwise.

How convenient it is to preach the beauty of humility when one is surrounded by wealth.

[icicle weapon]

Fireweed_honey

icicle weapon

Fireweed_honey

icicle weapon

Fireweed_honey

It looks to me like you are getting Dioceses and local church mixed up. The Diocese is like the government over a section of churches. When a priest of a church denies a baptism, it is the priest and not the Dioceses. Unless the Bishop or Archbishop in charge of that area makes the decree, it's normally the priest's call.

As for not baptizing a baby, the only examples you provided that I can see as an excuse were: Not married in the Catholic church, parents not going to church every week, and one parent not Catholic. Did you know that in order to be baptized, the parents have to promise to raise the child in the Catholic church? So, if the couple is not married in the church (and probably not a member of said church) they would be denied. If the couple says they don't plan on raising the child in the church, they will be denied. If the couple is not a registered member of the church (at least one parent must be registered) they will be denied. I'm Catholic, and any child of mine would be denied at this point because I am not registered at the Church I attend.

The same goes for marriage. Not everyone can be married in the Catholic church. There are rules. And one of those rules is to be Catholic and abide by the laws of the Church.

marriage is different.
I'm saying, if Catholics believe that Jesus loves everyone and does not judge, and that you need to be baptized to get into Heaven, it is cruel to deny that to an innocent child.
It's like saying, "Jesus doesn't actually love everyone. He only loves Church-going Catholics"

There are rules. In order to be baptized, one must follow the rules. No church, Catholic, Protestant, or what have you, just willy-nilly baptizes people. It's a covenant and a contract between that person (or in the case of the baby, the parents of that person) and the church to live by the rules of that church. By baptizing a child in the Catholic faith, the family is saying they are entering a contract in which they will abide by the rules, among them is attend mass and live as much a Catholic life as they possibly can and be registered in that church.

Now, say for instance, as a Catholic, I get the weird whim to have my child baptized Mormon. I'm not Mormon. I'm not registered at any Mormon Temple. I don't plan to raise my child Mormon. I just happen to attend once in a while with a friend of mine. It would be sacrilegious to both faiths to get my child baptized Mormon. For one, I don't believe in the tenants of that faith, and two, I'm not planning on raising my child Mormon. If I brought my child to the nearest Mormon Temple, they'd tell me no. Is it classist? No. It's the rules, pure and simple.

As I said, some of the examples of the OP were more of a priest deciding a factor. Now, we don't know what was said, or if the OP actually knows all the examples presented. But the fact remains, there are rules. And those rules state: You must be a registered member of the Church you want your baby baptized in (1), You must agree to raise your baptized child as Catholic (meaning weekly mass, CCD classes, sacrament classes, whole nine yards), and You must be willing to live a Catholic life as example (the same mass and sacraments). An answer of no to any of these will get you denied. After all, why baptize a baby into a faith you are not willing to fully participate in?

The only exception is to the first rule, in which if you have a baby in one state, all your family live in another state, there is paperwork that will allow you to baptize your baby in your family's Catholic church (assuming your family is Catholic) so everyone can attend.

i understand them denying marriage.
but in a religion that preaches everyone is equal and that Jesus loves everyone, it is cruel to deny that to a child who cannot make his/her own decisions.
If this were any other service, this would be a human rights violation. It would be discrimination based on family status.
But religions are exempt from normal laws.

You're not reading what I'm writing. The baptism rules for Catholics are the same rules that any other religion known to man has about the sacraments/perks of their religion.
1. You (or at least one parent) must be a member of said faith. Some religions may be more strict with that and require both parents be part of the faith.
2. You (or the parents) promise to follow the tenants of said faith and live life according to the laws set forth by said faith.

And, as I asked before: Why would you baptize a baby in a faith you do not wish to follow? Do you go to Jewish Synagogs and try to enter your child there if you do not care for nor plan to follow the Jewish faith? How about Muslim temples? Or Hindu temples? If you do not follow the faith, why push your kid into it?

NO faith just willy-nilly baptizes (or insert other method of entering said faith) without expecting the person being brought into the faith will live in accordance to the tenants of that faith. I can't go and decide to be come a Hindu and then go out and have a cheeseburger after promising to follow the tenants of their faith that include not eating cow. If I tell them, "Yeah, I totally want to be a Hindu, but I'm going to scarf cheeseburgers and do whatever I feel like and call myself a Hindu in name only" they won't let me in their club. Religion and faith are very serious matters to the people who live it.

Seriously, it's not being classist, it's being realistic. EVERY faith known to man expects you to follow their tenants when you join. If it's the case of a baby, they expect the parents to follow their tenants. If the parents say they won't, then it's a no go.

obviously the people who had their kids' baptisims denied were Catholic, and said they would raise their kids Catholic.
They were denied because of stupid reasons like, being single parents, or being poor

The Diocese in my area hates poor people.
They don't let poor people volunteer at the Church. They can't join the Church groups. Their kids can't be in the pageant.
The Catholic school board in my area does the same.
This is what I am complaining about.
I'm not talking about non-Catholics trying to get their babies baptized Catholic and being denied.

[Fireweed_honey]

icicle weapon

Fireweed_honey

icicle weapon

Fireweed_honey

icicle weapon

Fireweed_honey

It looks to me like you are getting Dioceses and local church mixed up. The Diocese is like the government over a section of churches. When a priest of a church denies a baptism, it is the priest and not the Dioceses. Unless the Bishop or Archbishop in charge of that area makes the decree, it's normally the priest's call.

As for not baptizing a baby, the only examples you provided that I can see as an excuse were: Not married in the Catholic church, parents not going to church every week, and one parent not Catholic. Did you know that in order to be baptized, the parents have to promise to raise the child in the Catholic church? So, if the couple is not married in the church (and probably not a member of said church) they would be denied. If the couple says they don't plan on raising the child in the church, they will be denied. If the couple is not a registered member of the church (at least one parent must be registered) they will be denied. I'm Catholic, and any child of mine would be denied at this point because I am not registered at the Church I attend.

The same goes for marriage. Not everyone can be married in the Catholic church. There are rules. And one of those rules is to be Catholic and abide by the laws of the Church.

marriage is different.
I'm saying, if Catholics believe that Jesus loves everyone and does not judge, and that you need to be baptized to get into Heaven, it is cruel to deny that to an innocent child.
It's like saying, "Jesus doesn't actually love everyone. He only loves Church-going Catholics"

There are rules. In order to be baptized, one must follow the rules. No church, Catholic, Protestant, or what have you, just willy-nilly baptizes people. It's a covenant and a contract between that person (or in the case of the baby, the parents of that person) and the church to live by the rules of that church. By baptizing a child in the Catholic faith, the family is saying they are entering a contract in which they will abide by the rules, among them is attend mass and live as much a Catholic life as they possibly can and be registered in that church.

Now, say for instance, as a Catholic, I get the weird whim to have my child baptized Mormon. I'm not Mormon. I'm not registered at any Mormon Temple. I don't plan to raise my child Mormon. I just happen to attend once in a while with a friend of mine. It would be sacrilegious to both faiths to get my child baptized Mormon. For one, I don't believe in the tenants of that faith, and two, I'm not planning on raising my child Mormon. If I brought my child to the nearest Mormon Temple, they'd tell me no. Is it classist? No. It's the rules, pure and simple.

As I said, some of the examples of the OP were more of a priest deciding a factor. Now, we don't know what was said, or if the OP actually knows all the examples presented. But the fact remains, there are rules. And those rules state: You must be a registered member of the Church you want your baby baptized in (1), You must agree to raise your baptized child as Catholic (meaning weekly mass, CCD classes, sacrament classes, whole nine yards), and You must be willing to live a Catholic life as example (the same mass and sacraments). An answer of no to any of these will get you denied. After all, why baptize a baby into a faith you are not willing to fully participate in?

The only exception is to the first rule, in which if you have a baby in one state, all your family live in another state, there is paperwork that will allow you to baptize your baby in your family's Catholic church (assuming your family is Catholic) so everyone can attend.

i understand them denying marriage.
but in a religion that preaches everyone is equal and that Jesus loves everyone, it is cruel to deny that to a child who cannot make his/her own decisions.
If this were any other service, this would be a human rights violation. It would be discrimination based on family status.
But religions are exempt from normal laws.

You're not reading what I'm writing. The baptism rules for Catholics are the same rules that any other religion known to man has about the sacraments/perks of their religion.
1. You (or at least one parent) must be a member of said faith. Some religions may be more strict with that and require both parents be part of the faith.
2. You (or the parents) promise to follow the tenants of said faith and live life according to the laws set forth by said faith.

And, as I asked before: Why would you baptize a baby in a faith you do not wish to follow? Do you go to Jewish Synagogs and try to enter your child there if you do not care for nor plan to follow the Jewish faith? How about Muslim temples? Or Hindu temples? If you do not follow the faith, why push your kid into it?

NO faith just willy-nilly baptizes (or insert other method of entering said faith) without expecting the person being brought into the faith will live in accordance to the tenants of that faith. I can't go and decide to be come a Hindu and then go out and have a cheeseburger after promising to follow the tenants of their faith that include not eating cow. If I tell them, "Yeah, I totally want to be a Hindu, but I'm going to scarf cheeseburgers and do whatever I feel like and call myself a Hindu in name only" they won't let me in their club. Religion and faith are very serious matters to the people who live it.

Seriously, it's not being classist, it's being realistic. EVERY faith known to man expects you to follow their tenants when you join. If it's the case of a baby, they expect the parents to follow their tenants. If the parents say they won't, then it's a no go.

obviously the people who had their kids' baptisims denied were Catholic, and said they would raise their kids Catholic.
They were denied because of stupid reasons like, being single parents, or being poor

The Diocese in my area hates poor people.
They don't let poor people volunteer at the Church. They can't join the Church groups. Their kids can't be in the pageant.
The Catholic school board in my area does the same.
This is what I am complaining about.
I'm not talking about non-Catholics trying to get their babies baptized Catholic and being denied.

What Diocese do you live in? I know I'm not the first to ask that question, and I doubt you ever answered. Secondly, again, it is not the Diocese. It's the priest at your church. The only rules that ALL Diocese have for baptism is the ones I've told you. And, if you care to go back up to my original statement, I agreed with you that reasons like being a single mother and poor were not good reasons, but the reasons that you had stated that went against the set rules were good excuses. As for the "they don't let poor people volunteer" I'm calling bullshit. It's volunteer work, since they don't have to pay anyone, you can just show up to work. Unless all positions are filled and they can't reasonably fit new workers in on a project, they would not be rejected. Most Church groups I know of do require you to be a full fledged, go every Sunday member of the church. Not sure about pageants, can't remember any of those. And the schools are private. That means you have to pay to enter. It's not public schools. They aren't going, "You're poor so no'. It's more of a "You need to pay the fees to keep our schools up and running".

And no, this was not what you were complaining about. You were complaining about a bunch of hypothetical people not being allowed to have their babies baptized for various reasons, among them single mom, poor family, one parent an Atheist/Agnostic, parents don't go every Sunday, etc. You pulled a list of about ten people, and I highly doubt you've ever met all ten cases, to show how "classist" the Church is for denying all said people to allow their babies to be baptized.

And, once again, it is the single church you are complaining about, not the Diocese! Unless you've traveled to every church in your Diocese, it's that one church. Or it could be that one priest. And guess what, you can do something about it. You can talk to the other priest at your church if it's just one who is turning people away. You can write to the Bishop or Archbishop of your Diocese. You can go to another Catholic Church to put in a complaint.

[icicle weapon]

Fireweed_honey

icicle weapon

Fireweed_honey

icicle weapon

Fireweed_honey

There are rules. In order to be baptized, one must follow the rules. No church, Catholic, Protestant, or what have you, just willy-nilly baptizes people. It's a covenant and a contract between that person (or in the case of the baby, the parents of that person) and the church to live by the rules of that church. By baptizing a child in the Catholic faith, the family is saying they are entering a contract in which they will abide by the rules, among them is attend mass and live as much a Catholic life as they possibly can and be registered in that church.

Now, say for instance, as a Catholic, I get the weird whim to have my child baptized Mormon. I'm not Mormon. I'm not registered at any Mormon Temple. I don't plan to raise my child Mormon. I just happen to attend once in a while with a friend of mine. It would be sacrilegious to both faiths to get my child baptized Mormon. For one, I don't believe in the tenants of that faith, and two, I'm not planning on raising my child Mormon. If I brought my child to the nearest Mormon Temple, they'd tell me no. Is it classist? No. It's the rules, pure and simple.

As I said, some of the examples of the OP were more of a priest deciding a factor. Now, we don't know what was said, or if the OP actually knows all the examples presented. But the fact remains, there are rules. And those rules state: You must be a registered member of the Church you want your baby baptized in (1), You must agree to raise your baptized child as Catholic (meaning weekly mass, CCD classes, sacrament classes, whole nine yards), and You must be willing to live a Catholic life as example (the same mass and sacraments). An answer of no to any of these will get you denied. After all, why baptize a baby into a faith you are not willing to fully participate in?

The only exception is to the first rule, in which if you have a baby in one state, all your family live in another state, there is paperwork that will allow you to baptize your baby in your family's Catholic church (assuming your family is Catholic) so everyone can attend.

i understand them denying marriage.
but in a religion that preaches everyone is equal and that Jesus loves everyone, it is cruel to deny that to a child who cannot make his/her own decisions.
If this were any other service, this would be a human rights violation. It would be discrimination based on family status.
But religions are exempt from normal laws.

You're not reading what I'm writing. The baptism rules for Catholics are the same rules that any other religion known to man has about the sacraments/perks of their religion.
1. You (or at least one parent) must be a member of said faith. Some religions may be more strict with that and require both parents be part of the faith.
2. You (or the parents) promise to follow the tenants of said faith and live life according to the laws set forth by said faith.

And, as I asked before: Why would you baptize a baby in a faith you do not wish to follow? Do you go to Jewish Synagogs and try to enter your child there if you do not care for nor plan to follow the Jewish faith? How about Muslim temples? Or Hindu temples? If you do not follow the faith, why push your kid into it?

NO faith just willy-nilly baptizes (or insert other method of entering said faith) without expecting the person being brought into the faith will live in accordance to the tenants of that faith. I can't go and decide to be come a Hindu and then go out and have a cheeseburger after promising to follow the tenants of their faith that include not eating cow. If I tell them, "Yeah, I totally want to be a Hindu, but I'm going to scarf cheeseburgers and do whatever I feel like and call myself a Hindu in name only" they won't let me in their club. Religion and faith are very serious matters to the people who live it.

Seriously, it's not being classist, it's being realistic. EVERY faith known to man expects you to follow their tenants when you join. If it's the case of a baby, they expect the parents to follow their tenants. If the parents say they won't, then it's a no go.

obviously the people who had their kids' baptisims denied were Catholic, and said they would raise their kids Catholic.
They were denied because of stupid reasons like, being single parents, or being poor

The Diocese in my area hates poor people.
They don't let poor people volunteer at the Church. They can't join the Church groups. Their kids can't be in the pageant.
The Catholic school board in my area does the same.
This is what I am complaining about.
I'm not talking about non-Catholics trying to get their babies baptized Catholic and being denied.

What Diocese do you live in? I know I'm not the first to ask that question, and I doubt you ever answered. Secondly, again, it is not the Diocese. It's the priest at your church. The only rules that ALL Diocese have for baptism is the ones I've told you. And, if you care to go back up to my original statement, I agreed with you that reasons like being a single mother and poor were not good reasons, but the reasons that you had stated that went against the set rules were good excuses. As for the "they don't let poor people volunteer" I'm calling bullshit. It's volunteer work, since they don't have to pay anyone, you can just show up to work. Unless all positions are filled and they can't reasonably fit new workers in on a project, they would not be rejected. Most Church groups I know of do require you to be a full fledged, go every Sunday member of the church. Not sure about pageants, can't remember any of those. And the schools are private. That means you have to pay to enter. It's not public schools. They aren't going, "You're poor so no'. It's more of a "You need to pay the fees to keep our schools up and running".

And no, this was not what you were complaining about. You were complaining about a bunch of hypothetical people not being allowed to have their babies baptized for various reasons, among them single mom, poor family, one parent an Atheist/Agnostic, parents don't go every Sunday, etc. You pulled a list of about ten people, and I highly doubt you've ever met all ten cases, to show how "classist" the Church is for denying all said people to allow their babies to be baptized.

And, once again, it is the single church you are complaining about, not the Diocese! Unless you've traveled to every church in your Diocese, it's that one church. Or it could be that one priest. And guess what, you can do something about it. You can talk to the other priest at your church if it's just one who is turning people away. You can write to the Bishop or Archbishop of your Diocese. You can go to another Catholic Church to put in a complaint.

It is the Diocese, because it is every Church.
Secondly, growing up, my family and I would go Church every Sunday and I went Catholic School, and I wasn't allowed in Pageants and School activities because of my socioeconomic status.
And yes, volunteer as well. They don't want certain people in the Church, and they make this clear. It's like high school for adults there. It's all people flashing their money, and if you don't have that, they don't want you there.

And I'm not telling you what diocese I was in; I don't want you to know where I live.
Anyway, I'm agnostic now, because I can't be bothered to associate with hypocritical groups of people like that.

I also left that town for the same reason.

Oh, and I figured it was implied those people I was talking about were Catholic, because no non-catholic would try and get their baby baptized Catholic. That's just ridiculous.

[Fireweed_honey]

icicle weapon

Fireweed_honey

icicle weapon

Fireweed_honey

icicle weapon

Fireweed_honey

There are rules. In order to be baptized, one must follow the rules. No church, Catholic, Protestant, or what have you, just willy-nilly baptizes people. It's a covenant and a contract between that person (or in the case of the baby, the parents of that person) and the church to live by the rules of that church. By baptizing a child in the Catholic faith, the family is saying they are entering a contract in which they will abide by the rules, among them is attend mass and live as much a Catholic life as they possibly can and be registered in that church.

Now, say for instance, as a Catholic, I get the weird whim to have my child baptized Mormon. I'm not Mormon. I'm not registered at any Mormon Temple. I don't plan to raise my child Mormon. I just happen to attend once in a while with a friend of mine. It would be sacrilegious to both faiths to get my child baptized Mormon. For one, I don't believe in the tenants of that faith, and two, I'm not planning on raising my child Mormon. If I brought my child to the nearest Mormon Temple, they'd tell me no. Is it classist? No. It's the rules, pure and simple.

As I said, some of the examples of the OP were more of a priest deciding a factor. Now, we don't know what was said, or if the OP actually knows all the examples presented. But the fact remains, there are rules. And those rules state: You must be a registered member of the Church you want your baby baptized in (1), You must agree to raise your baptized child as Catholic (meaning weekly mass, CCD classes, sacrament classes, whole nine yards), and You must be willing to live a Catholic life as example (the same mass and sacraments). An answer of no to any of these will get you denied. After all, why baptize a baby into a faith you are not willing to fully participate in?

The only exception is to the first rule, in which if you have a baby in one state, all your family live in another state, there is paperwork that will allow you to baptize your baby in your family's Catholic church (assuming your family is Catholic) so everyone can attend.

i understand them denying marriage.
but in a religion that preaches everyone is equal and that Jesus loves everyone, it is cruel to deny that to a child who cannot make his/her own decisions.
If this were any other service, this would be a human rights violation. It would be discrimination based on family status.
But religions are exempt from normal laws.

You're not reading what I'm writing. The baptism rules for Catholics are the same rules that any other religion known to man has about the sacraments/perks of their religion.
1. You (or at least one parent) must be a member of said faith. Some religions may be more strict with that and require both parents be part of the faith.
2. You (or the parents) promise to follow the tenants of said faith and live life according to the laws set forth by said faith.

And, as I asked before: Why would you baptize a baby in a faith you do not wish to follow? Do you go to Jewish Synagogs and try to enter your child there if you do not care for nor plan to follow the Jewish faith? How about Muslim temples? Or Hindu temples? If you do not follow the faith, why push your kid into it?

NO faith just willy-nilly baptizes (or insert other method of entering said faith) without expecting the person being brought into the faith will live in accordance to the tenants of that faith. I can't go and decide to be come a Hindu and then go out and have a cheeseburger after promising to follow the tenants of their faith that include not eating cow. If I tell them, "Yeah, I totally want to be a Hindu, but I'm going to scarf cheeseburgers and do whatever I feel like and call myself a Hindu in name only" they won't let me in their club. Religion and faith are very serious matters to the people who live it.

Seriously, it's not being classist, it's being realistic. EVERY faith known to man expects you to follow their tenants when you join. If it's the case of a baby, they expect the parents to follow their tenants. If the parents say they won't, then it's a no go.

obviously the people who had their kids' baptisims denied were Catholic, and said they would raise their kids Catholic.
They were denied because of stupid reasons like, being single parents, or being poor

The Diocese in my area hates poor people.
They don't let poor people volunteer at the Church. They can't join the Church groups. Their kids can't be in the pageant.
The Catholic school board in my area does the same.
This is what I am complaining about.
I'm not talking about non-Catholics trying to get their babies baptized Catholic and being denied.

What Diocese do you live in? I know I'm not the first to ask that question, and I doubt you ever answered. Secondly, again, it is not the Diocese. It's the priest at your church. The only rules that ALL Diocese have for baptism is the ones I've told you. And, if you care to go back up to my original statement, I agreed with you that reasons like being a single mother and poor were not good reasons, but the reasons that you had stated that went against the set rules were good excuses. As for the "they don't let poor people volunteer" I'm calling bullshit. It's volunteer work, since they don't have to pay anyone, you can just show up to work. Unless all positions are filled and they can't reasonably fit new workers in on a project, they would not be rejected. Most Church groups I know of do require you to be a full fledged, go every Sunday member of the church. Not sure about pageants, can't remember any of those. And the schools are private. That means you have to pay to enter. It's not public schools. They aren't going, "You're poor so no'. It's more of a "You need to pay the fees to keep our schools up and running".

And no, this was not what you were complaining about. You were complaining about a bunch of hypothetical people not being allowed to have their babies baptized for various reasons, among them single mom, poor family, one parent an Atheist/Agnostic, parents don't go every Sunday, etc. You pulled a list of about ten people, and I highly doubt you've ever met all ten cases, to show how "classist" the Church is for denying all said people to allow their babies to be baptized.

And, once again, it is the single church you are complaining about, not the Diocese! Unless you've traveled to every church in your Diocese, it's that one church. Or it could be that one priest. And guess what, you can do something about it. You can talk to the other priest at your church if it's just one who is turning people away. You can write to the Bishop or Archbishop of your Diocese. You can go to another Catholic Church to put in a complaint.

It is the Diocese, because it is every Church.
Secondly, growing up, my family and I would go Church every Sunday and I went Catholic School, and I wasn't allowed in Pageants and School activities because of my socioeconomic status.
And yes, volunteer as well. They don't want certain people in the Church, and they make this clear. It's like high school for adults there. It's all people flashing their money, and if you don't have that, they don't want you there.

And I'm not telling you what diocese I was in; I don't want you to know where I live.
Anyway, I'm agnostic now, because I can't be bothered to associate with hypocritical groups of people like that.

I also left that town for the same reason.

Oh, and I figured it was implied those people I was talking about were Catholic, because no non-catholic would try and get their baby baptized Catholic. That's just ridiculous.

And I call bullshit. You went one church and dropped out. In the span of my lifetime I've attended 7 different Catholic Churches in 6 different Dioceses. Not one of them ever excluded the poor. For crying out loud, one of the Church's principles is attending to the poor. So you're basing all your complaints on imaginary people in a single Church that you no longer go to for a faith you don't believe in.

Since you're so out of touch, once again, a Diocese is like the government over a huge selection of churches. I live in the Diocese of Arlington, which stretches a scoosh south of DC to Richmond. Do you have any idea how many churches there are in that stretch? Do you have any idea how many counties and towns are in that stretch? Yeah, I'm not scared.

For the last time: Your priest had a ******** problem, not the Dioceses. Get it right.

[icicle weapon]

Fireweed_honey

icicle weapon

Fireweed_honey

icicle weapon

Fireweed_honey

You're not reading what I'm writing. The baptism rules for Catholics are the same rules that any other religion known to man has about the sacraments/perks of their religion.
1. You (or at least one parent) must be a member of said faith. Some religions may be more strict with that and require both parents be part of the faith.
2. You (or the parents) promise to follow the tenants of said faith and live life according to the laws set forth by said faith.

And, as I asked before: Why would you baptize a baby in a faith you do not wish to follow? Do you go to Jewish Synagogs and try to enter your child there if you do not care for nor plan to follow the Jewish faith? How about Muslim temples? Or Hindu temples? If you do not follow the faith, why push your kid into it?

NO faith just willy-nilly baptizes (or insert other method of entering said faith) without expecting the person being brought into the faith will live in accordance to the tenants of that faith. I can't go and decide to be come a Hindu and then go out and have a cheeseburger after promising to follow the tenants of their faith that include not eating cow. If I tell them, "Yeah, I totally want to be a Hindu, but I'm going to scarf cheeseburgers and do whatever I feel like and call myself a Hindu in name only" they won't let me in their club. Religion and faith are very serious matters to the people who live it.

Seriously, it's not being classist, it's being realistic. EVERY faith known to man expects you to follow their tenants when you join. If it's the case of a baby, they expect the parents to follow their tenants. If the parents say they won't, then it's a no go.

obviously the people who had their kids' baptisims denied were Catholic, and said they would raise their kids Catholic.
They were denied because of stupid reasons like, being single parents, or being poor

The Diocese in my area hates poor people.
They don't let poor people volunteer at the Church. They can't join the Church groups. Their kids can't be in the pageant.
The Catholic school board in my area does the same.
This is what I am complaining about.
I'm not talking about non-Catholics trying to get their babies baptized Catholic and being denied.

What Diocese do you live in? I know I'm not the first to ask that question, and I doubt you ever answered. Secondly, again, it is not the Diocese. It's the priest at your church. The only rules that ALL Diocese have for baptism is the ones I've told you. And, if you care to go back up to my original statement, I agreed with you that reasons like being a single mother and poor were not good reasons, but the reasons that you had stated that went against the set rules were good excuses. As for the "they don't let poor people volunteer" I'm calling bullshit. It's volunteer work, since they don't have to pay anyone, you can just show up to work. Unless all positions are filled and they can't reasonably fit new workers in on a project, they would not be rejected. Most Church groups I know of do require you to be a full fledged, go every Sunday member of the church. Not sure about pageants, can't remember any of those. And the schools are private. That means you have to pay to enter. It's not public schools. They aren't going, "You're poor so no'. It's more of a "You need to pay the fees to keep our schools up and running".

And no, this was not what you were complaining about. You were complaining about a bunch of hypothetical people not being allowed to have their babies baptized for various reasons, among them single mom, poor family, one parent an Atheist/Agnostic, parents don't go every Sunday, etc. You pulled a list of about ten people, and I highly doubt you've ever met all ten cases, to show how "classist" the Church is for denying all said people to allow their babies to be baptized.

And, once again, it is the single church you are complaining about, not the Diocese! Unless you've traveled to every church in your Diocese, it's that one church. Or it could be that one priest. And guess what, you can do something about it. You can talk to the other priest at your church if it's just one who is turning people away. You can write to the Bishop or Archbishop of your Diocese. You can go to another Catholic Church to put in a complaint.

It is the Diocese, because it is every Church.
Secondly, growing up, my family and I would go Church every Sunday and I went Catholic School, and I wasn't allowed in Pageants and School activities because of my socioeconomic status.
And yes, volunteer as well. They don't want certain people in the Church, and they make this clear. It's like high school for adults there. It's all people flashing their money, and if you don't have that, they don't want you there.

And I'm not telling you what diocese I was in; I don't want you to know where I live.
Anyway, I'm agnostic now, because I can't be bothered to associate with hypocritical groups of people like that.

I also left that town for the same reason.

Oh, and I figured it was implied those people I was talking about were Catholic, because no non-catholic would try and get their baby baptized Catholic. That's just ridiculous.

And I call bullshit. You went one church and dropped out. In the span of my lifetime I've attended 7 different Catholic Churches in 6 different Dioceses. Not one of them ever excluded the poor. For crying out loud, one of the Church's principles is attending to the poor. So you're basing all your complaints on imaginary people in a single Church that you no longer go to for a faith you don't believe in.

Since you're so out of touch, once again, a Diocese is like the government over a huge selection of churches. I live in the Diocese of Arlington, which stretches a scoosh south of DC to Richmond. Do you have any idea how many churches there are in that stretch? Do you have any idea how many counties and towns are in that stretch? Yeah, I'm not scared.

For the last time: Your priest had a ******** problem, not the Dioceses. Get it right.

i went to 3, and had like multiple priests.
and it was the Catholic School Board as well. They were worse.
My diocese wasn't very big. And half the
Then I went to a Church in a different diocese and they seemed fine actually.
But the religious folk in my hometown are classist pigs.

[berklan]

Fireweed_honey

icicle weapon

Fireweed_honey

icicle weapon

Fireweed_honey

You're not reading what I'm writing. The baptism rules for Catholics are the same rules that any other religion known to man has about the sacraments/perks of their religion.
1. You (or at least one parent) must be a member of said faith. Some religions may be more strict with that and require both parents be part of the faith.
2. You (or the parents) promise to follow the tenants of said faith and live life according to the laws set forth by said faith.

And, as I asked before: Why would you baptize a baby in a faith you do not wish to follow? Do you go to Jewish Synagogs and try to enter your child there if you do not care for nor plan to follow the Jewish faith? How about Muslim temples? Or Hindu temples? If you do not follow the faith, why push your kid into it?

NO faith just willy-nilly baptizes (or insert other method of entering said faith) without expecting the person being brought into the faith will live in accordance to the tenants of that faith. I can't go and decide to be come a Hindu and then go out and have a cheeseburger after promising to follow the tenants of their faith that include not eating cow. If I tell them, "Yeah, I totally want to be a Hindu, but I'm going to scarf cheeseburgers and do whatever I feel like and call myself a Hindu in name only" they won't let me in their club. Religion and faith are very serious matters to the people who live it.

Seriously, it's not being classist, it's being realistic. EVERY faith known to man expects you to follow their tenants when you join. If it's the case of a baby, they expect the parents to follow their tenants. If the parents say they won't, then it's a no go.

obviously the people who had their kids' baptisims denied were Catholic, and said they would raise their kids Catholic.
They were denied because of stupid reasons like, being single parents, or being poor

The Diocese in my area hates poor people.
They don't let poor people volunteer at the Church. They can't join the Church groups. Their kids can't be in the pageant.
The Catholic school board in my area does the same.
This is what I am complaining about.
I'm not talking about non-Catholics trying to get their babies baptized Catholic and being denied.

What Diocese do you live in? I know I'm not the first to ask that question, and I doubt you ever answered. Secondly, again, it is not the Diocese. It's the priest at your church. The only rules that ALL Diocese have for baptism is the ones I've told you. And, if you care to go back up to my original statement, I agreed with you that reasons like being a single mother and poor were not good reasons, but the reasons that you had stated that went against the set rules were good excuses. As for the "they don't let poor people volunteer" I'm calling bullshit. It's volunteer work, since they don't have to pay anyone, you can just show up to work. Unless all positions are filled and they can't reasonably fit new workers in on a project, they would not be rejected. Most Church groups I know of do require you to be a full fledged, go every Sunday member of the church. Not sure about pageants, can't remember any of those. And the schools are private. That means you have to pay to enter. It's not public schools. They aren't going, "You're poor so no'. It's more of a "You need to pay the fees to keep our schools up and running".

And no, this was not what you were complaining about. You were complaining about a bunch of hypothetical people not being allowed to have their babies baptized for various reasons, among them single mom, poor family, one parent an Atheist/Agnostic, parents don't go every Sunday, etc. You pulled a list of about ten people, and I highly doubt you've ever met all ten cases, to show how "classist" the Church is for denying all said people to allow their babies to be baptized.

And, once again, it is the single church you are complaining about, not the Diocese! Unless you've traveled to every church in your Diocese, it's that one church. Or it could be that one priest. And guess what, you can do something about it. You can talk to the other priest at your church if it's just one who is turning people away. You can write to the Bishop or Archbishop of your Diocese. You can go to another Catholic Church to put in a complaint.

It is the Diocese, because it is every Church.
Secondly, growing up, my family and I would go Church every Sunday and I went Catholic School, and I wasn't allowed in Pageants and School activities because of my socioeconomic status.
And yes, volunteer as well. They don't want certain people in the Church, and they make this clear. It's like high school for adults there. It's all people flashing their money, and if you don't have that, they don't want you there.

And I'm not telling you what diocese I was in; I don't want you to know where I live.
Anyway, I'm agnostic now, because I can't be bothered to associate with hypocritical groups of people like that.

I also left that town for the same reason.

Oh, and I figured it was implied those people I was talking about were Catholic, because no non-catholic would try and get their baby baptized Catholic. That's just ridiculous.

And I call bullshit. You went one church and dropped out. In the span of my lifetime I've attended 7 different Catholic Churches in 6 different Dioceses. Not one of them ever excluded the poor. For crying out loud, one of the Church's principles is attending to the poor. So you're basing all your complaints on imaginary people in a single Church that you no longer go to for a faith you don't believe in.

Since you're so out of touch, once again, a Diocese is like the government over a huge selection of churches. I live in the Diocese of Arlington, which stretches a scoosh south of DC to Richmond. Do you have any idea how many churches there are in that stretch? Do you have any idea how many counties and towns are in that stretch? Yeah, I'm not scared.

For the last time: Your priest had a ******** problem, not the Dioceses. Get it right.

God bless you. You have the patience of Job! whee

[Sugarbeary]

Hey! There's hypocrites in the church, and they could use one more! Join It!

And hey, if you find a perfect church, don't join it! You'll mess it up!