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Exumer is Hardcore's avatar

Lonely Gekko

stealthmongoose
considering how I wasn't actually replying to you, what you said was irrelevant.

"The bible is a hodge podge of polytheistic beliefs. Even your average Christian is judging a book by it's cover." has nothing to do with what I said about judging a book by its cover, because I was addressing an individual.

you may be "on topic" but far away from the point that I originally was discussing with the other person.

Perhaps if your last reply was a reply to my first post in this thread, then I could certainly understand. but for ******** sake, don't reply to me and say you're on topic when you're clearly just pulling s**t out of your a**.


I won't deny that what you said is relevant to my original post, but quote that instead of my replies to a douchebag that doesn't care to understand anything. burning_eyes
Admiral Dardanos's avatar

Hallowed Hunter

Exumer lives again
Admiral Dardanos
Exumer lives again
Admiral Dardanos
Exumer lives again
Somewhere in Exodus rolleyes c'mon now


Huh?

I've never read the bible. I imagine it would bore me to tears.
Oh okay. Quite literally judging a book by it's cover.


Not really. It's isn't like I'm not familiar with much of its contents. That's unfortunately unavoidable in this world. I was really just saying, as religions go, Christianity isn't exactly the most creative.
Christians didn't create the bible


How is that relevant?
Admiral Dardanos's avatar

Hallowed Hunter

Exumer lives again
my replies to a douchebag that doesn't care to understand anything. burning_eyes


Well that's not very polite...
Exumer is Hardcore's avatar

Lonely Gekko

Admiral Dardanos
Exumer lives again
Admiral Dardanos
Exumer lives again
Admiral Dardanos
Exumer lives again
Somewhere in Exodus rolleyes c'mon now


Huh?

I've never read the bible. I imagine it would bore me to tears.
Oh okay. Quite literally judging a book by it's cover.


Not really. It's isn't like I'm not familiar with much of its contents. That's unfortunately unavoidable in this world. I was really just saying, as religions go, Christianity isn't exactly the most creative.
Christians didn't create the bible


How is that relevant?
Your blame on Christians for lacking imagination, as if it was a driving force behind the creation of the bible?

"Christianity isn't exactly the most creative."
Exumer is Hardcore's avatar

Lonely Gekko

Admiral Dardanos
Exumer lives again
my replies to a douchebag that doesn't care to understand anything. burning_eyes


Well that's not very polite...
Politeness ends where excruciatingly ignorant replies begin.
Admiral Dardanos's avatar

Hallowed Hunter

Exumer lives again
Admiral Dardanos
Exumer lives again
Admiral Dardanos
Exumer lives again
Oh okay. Quite literally judging a book by it's cover.


Not really. It's isn't like I'm not familiar with much of its contents. That's unfortunately unavoidable in this world. I was really just saying, as religions go, Christianity isn't exactly the most creative.
Christians didn't create the bible


How is that relevant?
Your blame on Christians for lacking imagination, as if it was a driving force behind the creation of the bible?

"Christianity isn't exactly the most creative."


That was simply my reason for not reading the bible. I never said anything about who wrote it.
Admiral Dardanos's avatar

Hallowed Hunter

Exumer lives again
Admiral Dardanos
Exumer lives again
my replies to a douchebag that doesn't care to understand anything. burning_eyes


Well that's not very polite...
Politeness ends where excruciatingly ignorant replies begin.


I need no longer be polite to you then either it seems.
Kelevra Black's avatar

Dangerous Genius

God is not loving.
God is not the moral standard by which all good is judged.

Those who believe in God without a shred of doubt will claim that he is, but they don't actually judge him by his own standard. And if they do, that is called "special pleading" and is simply illogical.
Saying "God is good because God is good." is the equivalent to saying, "Voldemort is good because Voldemort is good."

We judge based on an understanding of how our decisions affect ourselves and the people around us. We don't judged based on what God wants us to do, because we honestly do not know.

I am an Atheist. I don't believe in God. I doubt his existence. I do not deny it... I doubt it.
The evidence for God s insufficient, and limited to the personal experiences of individuals.
But I began as a Christian, and a rather devout one. My journey to Atheism began as a path to strengthen my belief in God. My goal was to become a minister, and so I really began to read the Bible, for as a Minister, it would be my duty to provide people with answers to their questions...

... And as a Christian, it would be my duty to try to save the souls of the non-believers by giving them undeniable proof that Jesus Christ was their savior as well as mine...

So I searched for answers not just in the bible, but outside of it. But that presented a problem... There were no answers outside of it. There were no secular documents that proved the Bible to be true. So I began to study again, this time reading the bible as if I were not already a Christian... As if the Bible could, as it was believed, provide me with all the answers I needed. But when I read it without that bias, I noticed that God commits more atrocities than miracles.

Allow me to copy and paste an example that I wrote in another Thread.

Kelevra Black

An infinitely wise and perfect, loving being does not need me to worship him. More importantly, I do not deny Him. I deny the people that wrote of him. If God came to me personally, that would be the evidence that I need. But God never did that.

God apparently has this important message for all of mankind, yet he only shows himself to one person at a time, and we're supposed to take their word for it. That is not a faith in God... That is simply trusting, without evidence, that the extravagant claims those people made weren't lies. We are trusting that the person who heard voices or spoke to a burning bush wasn't just a liar or crazy. We're trusting them with the most important question mankind has ever faced, and taking their word as an answer for it. And their answer may have very well been based on nothing more than their imaginations.

But this is beside the point I am trying to make right now.

You claim I will be tormented by demons because I denied God's existence. But I do not deny his existence. I merely state that the evidence for God is insufficient, and therefor I doubt his existence.
Doubt and deny are not synonymous.

But even if he did exist, and gave me undeniable proof that he did, I would not worship him.
God is, as I have said several times in this thread, a monster.
If God is all powerful, as I assume you believe, he has the power to pull his children out of hell and spare them the eternal torture and torment that will be inflicted on them there.
Any god that will let his children be tortured for eternity is a god that is content to let his children be tortured for eternity.

I can not worship something that is morally inferior to myself. And yes, I am saying that I am morally superior to God. And so are you.
You may not have children, but lets assume that you do.
Is there anything in this world that they could do that would, in your mind, allow you to lock them in the basement and torture them in the most unimaginably painful ways, and not weigh on your conscience at all?

Another question:
God allows children to be raped and murdered.
Sure, you can say that he doesn't stop it because he does not want to intrude upon our free will.
And yes, the rapist does have free will, but does the freedom of the rapist take precedence over the freedom of the child?
Does the rapist wanting to rape the child mean more to God than the child not wanting to be raped?
In your belief system, God just sits back and watches, essentially saying to the rapist "When you're done, I'm going to punish you."
If I saw someone attempting to rape a child, I would try to stop them. That is the difference between me and your god.

The entire reason I started this Thread is to ask people to demonstrate that their faith is true, with evidence that is not based on personal experience. Nobody has been able to provide that, and I am still giving you the benefit of the doubt and now operating under the assumption that God is real... What I ask now is that you demonstrate that God deserves to be praised, loved, and worshiped.

Prove to me that he is a God of love, and not a God of callous aggression and injustice.

And again. I am not mad at God. I don't believe that he exists. I can't be mad at a fictional character. But I am mad at how people ignore the countless atrocities that God commits or allows others to commit, and people still call him a God of love. It's absurd.
I take the good and the bad, and I weigh them together, and the bad severely outweighs the good. God has killed more people in the Bible than Lucifer, and some of Lucifer's kills were sanctioned by God over bets and wagers.
Really?

And God orders Abraham to kill his son?
Yes, I know he stopped him at the last second, and it was merely a test of faith... But what kind of cruel god comes up with a test like that?
And if God really is all knowing, wouldn't he have known that Abraham would passed the test in advance, therefor making the test meaningless?

How is this a God worth worshiping?
Kelevra Black

Whether God exists or not is not what I care to discuss. I'm assuming he does for the sake of argument.
Kelevra Black's avatar

Dangerous Genius

scacchic
Kelevra Black

Whether God exists or not is not what I care to discuss. I'm assuming he does for the sake of argument.


Then read the rest of my post.
I do operate under the assumption that God is real as well.

But every time I jump into a religious debate, I feel the need to explain how I came about my points of view.
Sorry if that came off as wrong.
Again, my post was copied and pasted from another Thread I was debating in. So not all of it applies to this Thread, but there are still valid points in there.
well, one of the ways some cultures define God is "Good",

so we all think of one of the defining attributes of God as Good, rather than wondering why God is good. It might make more sense if I draw an analogy:

God___________Chocolate Cake
Good__________Chocolate
Truth__________Flour
Light__________Sugar

you get the idea? Taking Good out of the Abrahamic concept of God is like taking the Chocolate out of a Chocolate Cake. You end up with something different.
Kelevra Black's avatar

Dangerous Genius

Michael Noire
well, one of the ways some cultures define God is "Good",

so we all think of one of the defining attributes of God as Good, rather than wondering why God is good. It might make more sense if I draw an analogy:

God___________Chocolate Cake
Good__________Chocolate
Truth__________Flour
Light__________Sugar

you get the idea? Taking Good out of the Abrahamic concept of God is like taking the Chocolate out of a Chocolate Cake. You end up with something different.


You end up with something bland and undesirable, yet still some people will claim it is the greatest thing ever...
scacchic
Is he just inherently benevolent? By God, I mean the Judeo-Christian/Abrahamic God.


It's the same concept as when a father (or mother) has a child. That child is yours, and (generally- not always) you love that child. You'll love that child no matter what, by default (even if you're really mad at that child). You'll always see the best that child can be, with the right level of direction and love and guidance.
xXZirkannia's avatar

Interesting Citizen

Ayin the Younger
scacchic
Is he just inherently benevolent? By God, I mean the Judeo-Christian/Abrahamic God.


Let's not focus on one particular deity, but instead let's talk about a deity which is omnipotent, just for the sake of argument.

People say, absolute power corrupts absolutely, but I think we need to look beyond this silliness.

Let's say you had unlimited power, and were also immortal. What do you do?

Perhaps you do things to have fun at first. Perhaps you start to take out aggression on people. Perhaps you build yourself up and force people to serve you. You have absolute power, after all.

But eventually it all becomes boring. Making other people suffer, at least for me, even for people I really really hate, would become silly.

So I'd want to create things to make me happy. And then I'd think, it's kind of lonely, isn't it? Being the only happy one. So I'd start to give things to people I liked, and then, eventually, everyone. After all, there's no longer a zero sum game. I can be perfectly content as well as everyone else.

To be really silly, that's to say, if I want a pony, I can have one. And so can everyone else. Anyone who wants a pony, *pop* new pony for them.

So, in my mind, after millennia and millennia, anyone who has absolute power would eventually get bored with making everyone suffer, and would end up being absolutely benevolent.

Of course, maybe I'm just batshit insane.


Although,

Time is just a concept, or a means of measurement on earth. Outside of earth (that is, in the spiritual realm) the concept or limits of time are removed, and things just "exist." Without the need to fill or waste time, boredom would hardly be an issue.
How the Christian God acts depends on who you ask.

For some people, yes, he's always looking out for them. Passed a test? Gift from God. Got hired? Gift from God. Had enough money to pay for groceries? Gift from God.

Then there are those who think God is unforgiving of the wicked, even if it is somebody who has just ever so slightly wronged you, regardless of if said person is a devout Christian or not.

But I think most Christians dabble in a little bit of both.

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