Why does Agnosticism appeal to you?

[BippyT_T]

After reading a series of posts and threads about many people choosing to be agnostic around the age of 20+, i wonder why that is a common trend and why it takes place?

is it because of how much has been exposed to you having existed for 20 years of your life, or do you think it's a pretentious trend run along by people who deem themselves to be more knowledgeable in life? discuss.

[Henry Hobo-Master]

Bippy crying

After reading a series of posts and threads about many people choosing to be agnostic around the age of 20+, i wonder why that is a common trend and why it takes place?

is it because of how much has been exposed to you having existed for 20 years of your life, or do you think it's a pretentious trend run along by people who deem themselves to be more knowledgeable in life? discuss.

Born and raised Mormon here. I went to Utah (I'll be going back soon) for a few years of education, where everyone is basically Mormon. I got pretty big into Mormon Apology a few years back, and it's answered basically all my questions about anti-mormonism (because there is a lot of material out there to basically ridicule their beliefs). After talking to men and women my age, who are very religious and believe 100% that their religion is true, and that God exists, I guess that I really started to question the truth behind it.

Exposing myself to apologetics really got me to think about fallacies. I couldn't trust really any evidence provided by other people. I couldn't trust people to give me faith. I had to think about all of this, and really consider if God was there.

And so I did. I thought about it. I tried praying, and nothing really clicked for me. After all of that, I'm still left in this weird position in life. I don't like going to church, because it's overly preachy, and full of people who could basically be talking nonsense. I don't like praying, because I've always felt let down by the responses. I've never seen any reason to actually want to think a God exists. I mean, I can see that it could make sense, but at the same time I just really don't know.

And for that reason, I call myself atheist-agnostic. I don't know a God exists, and I don't claim to know. I think that hard-atheists are not really any better than the atheists (while they may have some good points). Honestly, I can't tell if God just doesn't want me to know something, or if God truly doesn't exist. I've stopped thinking about it, and I've just accepted that either way, I'm not going to know anytime soon. There is no reason to be so anxious and put yourself through so much religious self-hatred for your inability to do what this "God" wants you to do. All in all, I really do hope that there is some afterlife where we can all live as perfect beings, happily and forever. Part of me doesn't want my hopes to get up too high however, because it does sound fairytale-ish.

I don't know exactly where I fit in with all of this. I know I'm supposed to discuss, but I feel like my life story is relevant to the discussion; I am atheist-agnostic simply because I have started to acknowledge my true feelings about my faith in God. The religious people in my life were influential, but not in the way that they might have expected or hoped.

[Aporeia]

People tend to become agnostic when honesty confronts them.

[koopabrat]

At one point in my life, agnosticism appealed to me because I wasn't sure what I believed in. On the one hand, I wanted to believe in God, but on the other, I didn't believe he existed at all, so agnosticism seemed like a good fit for me. After a while, though, I realized that teetering on the fence was more frustrating than leaning completely one way or the other, so I had to do a lot of soul searching to discover what I truly believed in. Due to my upbringing, it seemed too taboo at the time for me to consider myself an atheist. However, once I filtered out all the biases that were ingrained into me and discovered my true self, I realized that I really didn't believe in God after all.

[God Emperor Baldur]

It's not that it's appealing, it's just factual that we do not know and neither do you.

[Lucky~9~Lives]

God Emperor Baldur

It's not that it's appealing, it's just factual that we do not know and neither do you.

It's factual that moving clocks run slow, but it does not seem to be a common trend for people to choose to believe that around the age of 20+.

[IronySandwich]

Bippy crying

is it because of how much has been exposed to you having existed for 20 years of your life, or do you think it's a pretentious trend run along by people who deem themselves to be more knowledgeable in life? discuss.

So let me get this straight. Agnosticism, which is at it's heart simply admitting that you do not have absolute proof of the existence of gods one way or the other, is a "pretentious trend" by people who "deem themselves to be more knowledgeable", whereas asserting that what you happen to believe is the absolute truth, that the universe itself must conform to what your own personal prejudices, is "humble"?

[koopabrat]

God Emperor Baldur

It's not that it's appealing, it's just factual that we do not know and neither do you.

Factual? There are billions of people in this world that beg to differ, and that sir is a fact. You may think they're wrong, but that doesn't make them wrong. They are as entitled to their opinions as you are of yours. Just because their opinion doesn't line up with yours doesn't make them wrong.

[koopabrat]

IronySandwich

Bippy crying

is it because of how much has been exposed to you having existed for 20 years of your life, or do you think it's a pretentious trend run along by people who deem themselves to be more knowledgeable in life? discuss.

So let me get this straight. Agnosticism, which is at it's heart simply admitting that you do not have absolute proof of the existence of gods one way or the other, is a "pretentious trend" by people who "deem themselves to be more knowledgeable", whereas asserting that what you happen to believe is the absolute truth, that the universe itself must conform to what your own personal prejudices, is "humble"?

hmm, good point. I didn't quite read op's post in that context, but I can definitely see where you're coming from.

[God Emperor Baldur]

koopabrat

Factual? There are billions of people in this world that beg to differ, and that sir is a fact.

Just because there is a majority of people who believe in something doesn't mean it's true. The majority of people used to believe the stars revolved around the sun.

koopabrat

You may think they're wrong, but that doesn't make them wrong. They are as entitled to their opinions as you are of yours. Just because their opinion doesn't line up with yours doesn't make them wrong.

It is not an opinion. The existence of a God/'s is an extraordinary claim and therefore requires extraordinary evidence. If you can hypothesize a way to prove God, come up with a basis for a test, test it, confirm it and be able to replicate it, then you have your extraordinary evidence. None of the billions of people you mentioned have done that. Now to be fair, there is no extraordinary evidence to say such a thing as God doesn't exist and would be foolish to assume, but the same could be said about Odin, the Flying Spaghetti Monster and a teapot orbiting the sun. Hence why agnosticism is factual because it is factual that we do not know.

[koopabrat]

God Emperor Baldur

koopabrat

Factual? There are billions of people in this world that beg to differ, and that sir is a fact.

Just because there is a majority of people who believe in something doesn't mean it's true. The majority of people used to believe the stars revolved around the sun.

koopabrat

You may think they're wrong, but that doesn't make them wrong. They are as entitled to their opinions as you are of yours. Just because their opinion doesn't line up with yours doesn't make them wrong.

It is not an opinion. The existence of a God/'s is an extraordinary claim and therefore requires extraordinary evidence. If you can hypothesize a way to prove God, come up with a basis for a test, test it, confirm it and be able to replicate it, then you have your extraordinary evidence. None of the billions of people you mentioned have done that. Now to be fair, there is no extraordinary evidence to say such a thing as God doesn't exist and would be foolish to assume, but the same could be said about Odin, the Flying Spaghetti Monster and a teapot orbiting the sun. Hence why agnosticism is factual because it is factual that we do not know.

It may not be true... but it's true to them. Religion is something that is deeply rooted into several generations of families across the globe. Telling them that they've been wrong all of this time will only lead to bad things happening. People didn't ever go to war and devastate entire civilizations over whether the stars orbited around the sun or not, but people have killed other people over religion because they thought those other people were wrong. They believed with all of their conviction, down to the depths of their souls, that they were doing God's will. The Taliban, the Crusaders, Jews, Nazis, Muslims... they have all died and killed for their beliefs because to them, God is as real as you and me. What we think of their beliefs means nothing to them. To them, God is real and to them, that is a fact. No, they don't have evidence, but for them, they don't need evidence. All they need is something to collectively believe in. Therefore, agnosticism may be factual to you, but it won't be to them. You can only claim that something is fact when you can convince the world to follow your lead.

Faith: a strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence

Faith is a powerful tool... and a devastating weapon.

[Dieu des hommes]

Because claiming I know something, when I really have absolutely no clue, doesn't seem honest.

[IronySandwich]

koopabrat

God Emperor Baldur

koopabrat

Factual? There are billions of people in this world that beg to differ, and that sir is a fact.

Just because there is a majority of people who believe in something doesn't mean it's true. The majority of people used to believe the stars revolved around the sun.

koopabrat

You may think they're wrong, but that doesn't make them wrong. They are as entitled to their opinions as you are of yours. Just because their opinion doesn't line up with yours doesn't make them wrong.

It is not an opinion. The existence of a God/'s is an extraordinary claim and therefore requires extraordinary evidence. If you can hypothesize a way to prove God, come up with a basis for a test, test it, confirm it and be able to replicate it, then you have your extraordinary evidence. None of the billions of people you mentioned have done that. Now to be fair, there is no extraordinary evidence to say such a thing as God doesn't exist and would be foolish to assume, but the same could be said about Odin, the Flying Spaghetti Monster and a teapot orbiting the sun. Hence why agnosticism is factual because it is factual that we do not know.

It may not be true... but it's true to them. Religion is something that is deeply rooted into several generations of families across the globe. Telling them that they've been wrong all of this time will only lead to bad things happening. People didn't ever go to war and devastate entire civilizations over whether the stars orbited around the sun or not, but people have killed other people over religion because they thought those other people were wrong. They believed with all of their conviction, down to the depths of their souls, that they were doing God's will. The Taliban, the Crusaders, Jews, Nazis, Muslims... they have all died and killed for their beliefs because to them, God is as real as you and me. What we think of their beliefs means nothing to them. To them, God is real and to them, that is a fact. No, they don't have evidence, but for them, they don't need evidence. All they need is something to collectively believe in.

Therefore, agnosticism may be factual to you, but it won't be to them. You can only claim that something is fact when you can convince the world to follow your lead.

A statement of opinion may be "true to me", but a statement of reality is true or false independent of my beliefs about it.

Believing really really hard does not make unicorns real. Adding billions of people believing really really hard does not change this in any way.

Gnosticism (as in the inverse of agnosticism, not the religion) is the assertion that not only does a god or gods exist (or not), but that you have absolute incontrovertible proof of this fact. They can believe they have this all they want, until such time as they actually provide this proof their belief means nothing.

[koopabrat]

IronySandwich

koopabrat

God Emperor Baldur

koopabrat

Factual? There are billions of people in this world that beg to differ, and that sir is a fact.

Just because there is a majority of people who believe in something doesn't mean it's true. The majority of people used to believe the stars revolved around the sun.

koopabrat

You may think they're wrong, but that doesn't make them wrong. They are as entitled to their opinions as you are of yours. Just because their opinion doesn't line up with yours doesn't make them wrong.

It is not an opinion. The existence of a God/'s is an extraordinary claim and therefore requires extraordinary evidence. If you can hypothesize a way to prove God, come up with a basis for a test, test it, confirm it and be able to replicate it, then you have your extraordinary evidence. None of the billions of people you mentioned have done that. Now to be fair, there is no extraordinary evidence to say such a thing as God doesn't exist and would be foolish to assume, but the same could be said about Odin, the Flying Spaghetti Monster and a teapot orbiting the sun. Hence why agnosticism is factual because it is factual that we do not know.

It may not be true... but it's true to them. Religion is something that is deeply rooted into several generations of families across the globe. Telling them that they've been wrong all of this time will only lead to bad things happening. People didn't ever go to war and devastate entire civilizations over whether the stars orbited around the sun or not, but people have killed other people over religion because they thought those other people were wrong. They believed with all of their conviction, down to the depths of their souls, that they were doing God's will. The Taliban, the Crusaders, Jews, Nazis, Muslims... they have all died and killed for their beliefs because to them, God is as real as you and me. What we think of their beliefs means nothing to them. To them, God is real and to them, that is a fact. No, they don't have evidence, but for them, they don't need evidence. All they need is something to collectively believe in.

Therefore, agnosticism may be factual to you, but it won't be to them. You can only claim that something is fact when you can convince the world to follow your lead.

A statement of opinion may be "true to me", but a statement of reality is true or false independent of my beliefs about it.

Believing really really hard does not make unicorns real. Adding billions of people believing really really hard does not change this in any way.

Gnosticism (as in the inverse of agnosticism, not the religion) is the assertion that not only does a god or gods exist (or not), but that you have absolute incontrovertible proof of this fact. They can believe they have this all they want, until such time as they actually provide this proof their belief means nothing.

Definition of "belief" is "something believed; an opinion or conviction; confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof."

These billions of people believe that the Bible is real, the word of God, so they don't need any more evidence than that to prove God's (or unicorns') existence. The Bible states in several locations the following scriptures:

Quote:

Numbers 23:22 “God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.”

Numbers 24:8 “God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.”

Job 39:9 “Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?”

Job 39:10 “Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?”

Psalms 29:6 “He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn.”

Psalms 92:10 “But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.”

Deuteronomy 33:17 “His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.”

Psalms 22:21 “Save me from the lion’s mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.”

Isaiah 34:7 “And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.”

And to add a real quote from a real person responding to someone else asking if unicorns are real:

Quote:

There is a biblical reference to a unicorn in Psalms. The bible is real. So, unicorns were real.

Basically, you're completely missing my point and your "evidence" continues to be irrelevant to the topic at hand. There's no use in continuing this discussion. When you have unreputable (and relevant) evidence that agnosticism is the "one true religion," then please do share. In the meantime, I will continue being an atheist, but I will keep my mind open to learning all there is to know about religions and cultures so that I can continue to understand and appreciate these people's unique and often beautiful differences instead of wasting my breath trying to tell them that everything they believe in is a lie.

It seems to me, after analyzing your posts, that your unconscious suppression of religion (you claim to be on the fence about it, but your posts tell me otherwise) comes from your inability to fully understand yourself.

[IronySandwich]

koopabrat

IronySandwich

koopabrat

God Emperor Baldur

koopabrat

Factual? There are billions of people in this world that beg to differ, and that sir is a fact.

Just because there is a majority of people who believe in something doesn't mean it's true. The majority of people used to believe the stars revolved around the sun.

koopabrat

You may think they're wrong, but that doesn't make them wrong. They are as entitled to their opinions as you are of yours. Just because their opinion doesn't line up with yours doesn't make them wrong.

It is not an opinion. The existence of a God/'s is an extraordinary claim and therefore requires extraordinary evidence. If you can hypothesize a way to prove God, come up with a basis for a test, test it, confirm it and be able to replicate it, then you have your extraordinary evidence. None of the billions of people you mentioned have done that. Now to be fair, there is no extraordinary evidence to say such a thing as God doesn't exist and would be foolish to assume, but the same could be said about Odin, the Flying Spaghetti Monster and a teapot orbiting the sun. Hence why agnosticism is factual because it is factual that we do not know.

It may not be true... but it's true to them. Religion is something that is deeply rooted into several generations of families across the globe. Telling them that they've been wrong all of this time will only lead to bad things happening. People didn't ever go to war and devastate entire civilizations over whether the stars orbited around the sun or not, but people have killed other people over religion because they thought those other people were wrong. They believed with all of their conviction, down to the depths of their souls, that they were doing God's will. The Taliban, the Crusaders, Jews, Nazis, Muslims... they have all died and killed for their beliefs because to them, God is as real as you and me. What we think of their beliefs means nothing to them. To them, God is real and to them, that is a fact. No, they don't have evidence, but for them, they don't need evidence. All they need is something to collectively believe in.

Therefore, agnosticism may be factual to you, but it won't be to them. You can only claim that something is fact when you can convince the world to follow your lead.

A statement of opinion may be "true to me", but a statement of reality is true or false independent of my beliefs about it.

Believing really really hard does not make unicorns real. Adding billions of people believing really really hard does not change this in any way.

Gnosticism (as in the inverse of agnosticism, not the religion) is the assertion that not only does a god or gods exist (or not), but that you have absolute incontrovertible proof of this fact. They can believe they have this all they want, until such time as they actually provide this proof their belief means nothing.

Definition of "belief" is "something believed; an opinion or conviction; confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof."

These billions of people believe that the Bible is real, the word of God, so they don't need any more evidence than that to prove God's (or unicorns') existence. The Bible states in several locations the following scriptures:

Quote:

Numbers 23:22 “God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.”

Numbers 24:8 “God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.”

Job 39:9 “Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?”

Job 39:10 “Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?”

Psalms 29:6 “He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn.”

Psalms 92:10 “But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.”

Deuteronomy 33:17 “His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.”

Psalms 22:21 “Save me from the lion’s mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.”

Isaiah 34:7 “And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.”

And to add a real quote from a real person responding to someone else asking if unicorns are real:

Quote:

There is a biblical reference to a unicorn in Psalms. The bible is real. So, unicorns were real.

Basically, you're completely missing my point and your "evidence" continues to be irrelevant to the topic at hand. There's no use in continuing this discussion. When you have unreputable (and relevant) evidence that agnosticism is the "one true religion," then please do share. In the meantime, I will continue being an atheist, but I will keep my mind open to learning all there is to know about religions and cultures so that I can continue to understand and appreciate these people's unique and often beautiful differences instead of wasting my breath trying to tell them that everything they believe in is a lie.

You ... obviously don't have the slightest clue what agnosticism is. That you can say things like "one true religion" in reference to it is proof enough of that.

To be gnostic is to be of the belief that the existence of god(s) is/can be absolutely proven. It's not a question of what you believe to be true, it's a matter of asserting that you have absolute proof of your belief. That there is no question whatsoever that your belief is fully true and is proven beyond any shadow of a doubt to anyone, period. To be agnostic is to not be that.

P.S. Also as proof, I cite you saying that you are an atheist, as though that is some sort of alternative position or is even slightly relevant. You may as well say you stopped being agnostic when you became North Dakotan.