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"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"

http://answering-christianity.com/ac9.htm#links


women are not equal to men You've neglected the fact that women are merely property. if she is a good wife, you treat them well... if they aren't you can treat them as foully as you desire.


Where in the world does it mention THAT?


It doesn't, as always the same few verses are ripped out of context, and then twisted into a hateful message unrepresentative of Islam in theory or in practice.

You know sis, the same as usual.

Salaam
hehe...I was aware that it wasn't in the Qur'an. My question was more of a challenge like "oh really! Then show me proof" kind of thing. But yeah, the whole taking verses out of context thing is getting old.

Salam
gothic_sweetheart
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gothic_sweetheart
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Bruce Lee 545
"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"

http://answering-christianity.com/ac9.htm#links


women are not equal to men You've neglected the fact that women are merely property. if she is a good wife, you treat them well... if they aren't you can treat them as foully as you desire.


Where in the world does it mention THAT?


He posted a link with quotes from the Quran. Go read the verses listed and you'd obviously understand where it says such things.

http://infidelsarecool.com/2008/01/top-10-quran-quotes-every-woman-must-see/

If you didn't see the link ^^^^^
No I saw the link, clicked it, and went over all the 10 verses that were taken out of context, but no where did it say that " treat them as foully as you desire".

Seriously, why make stuff up?


I have a copy of the Quran and those are pretty accurate.

Why continue to be deluded? You must love your God very much (or maybe you just love Mohammed too much) to continue to ignore the problems of your religion and the things it's preaching.

You can call me blind all you want, but I know what I know and seen what I've seen, heard what I've heard. Not only from non-Muslims, but ex-Muslims and Muslims alike.

I said all I had to say in this topic, no need to drag it on, nor do I need to argue with religious nutcases. rolleyes

Point is, women aren't equal to men in Islam, they're always a level lower and are treated like crap in social theory.
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Try reading from Surah in the quaran; it's filled with all of the reasons why people don't like muslim extremists.
First of all which Surah or chapter? And "Muslim" extremists don't exactly follow the Qur'an in the right way.
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gothic_sweetheart
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"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"

http://answering-christianity.com/ac9.htm#links


women are not equal to men You've neglected the fact that women are merely property. if she is a good wife, you treat them well... if they aren't you can treat them as foully as you desire.


Where in the world does it mention THAT?


It doesn't, as always the same few verses are ripped out of context, and then twisted into a hateful message unrepresentative of Islam in theory or in practice.

You know sis, the same as usual.

Salaam
hehe...I was aware that it wasn't in the Qur'an. My question was more of a challenge like "oh really! Then show me proof" kind of thing. But yeah, the whole taking verses out of context thing is getting old.

Salam


Don't worry, I knew that you knew....

I was just chiming in as more of a solidarity thing, than trying to educate you.

Your massively informed and a very smart woman especially when it comes to Islam, Ive no doubt you knew ^_^
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gothic_sweetheart
JariKyoko
Try reading from Surah in the quaran; it's filled with all of the reasons why people don't like muslim extremists.
First of all which Surah or chapter? And "Muslim" extremists don't exactly follow the Qur'an in the right way.


The same excuse as every other religion that has an immoral book.

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." Surah 2:190

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: "We, too are believers." But when alone, they bite their finger tips with rage." Surah 3:118, 119

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." Surah 4:20-, 24

Are you sure they aren't following it the right way when it plainly says things like that?
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JariKyoko
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JariKyoko
Try reading from Surah in the quaran; it's filled with all of the reasons why people don't like muslim extremists.
First of all which Surah or chapter? And "Muslim" extremists don't exactly follow the Qur'an in the right way.


The same excuse as every other religion that has an immoral book.

Salaam Alaikum I see you seem to have a few issues with some verses from the Holy Qur'an.

This is pretty common, and im hoping I can help clear these things up with a proper use of context in both the verses and the historical occurance!

Quote:
"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." Surah 2:190


You quoted 2:190 ..2:190 reads in full, as the following

Quote:
Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.


It is important here to note, the verse says "Those who fight you" indicating self-defense,and gives a clear command to not transgress the rules of warfare(this includes the harming of civillians)

Two veress later though it says this
Quote:

2:192
And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

And the verse after
Quote:
2:193But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

Showing very clearly this verse relates to self-defense, and commanding Muslims to stop the fighting if the enemy forces stop.

Furthermore this verse was revealed in direct relation to on-going hostilitys between the Muslims and the agressive and extremely opressive Meccans of the Quraysh.
And is not a blanket command for all time.



"Believ
Quote:
ers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: "We, too are believers." But when alone, they bite their finger tips with rage." Surah 3:118, 119

Once more this verse is in referance very specifcally to the Christians and Jews who were betraying the Muslims in a time of unrest in Medina, it was seemed better to for a time place your trust in Muslims who's loyalty was assured, rather than the Jew's who were constantly breaking there treaty, and the Christians who (some of which) were aiding them.

It is clear form other Qur'anic verse, and more importantly the Actions of the Prophet(pbuh) and the companions after this verses revelation, that they were friendly and generous with non muslims, with Christians, Jews and even the Polytheists.

It is his example we follow, and we do not ignore the chronological context of verses such as this.


Quote:
"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." Surah 4:20-, 24

Yep that's as it is, plain as day.
Slavery is not really a practice institution nowadays so it's not relevant.


Quote:
Are you sure they aren't following it the right way when it plainly says things like that?

Essentially yes I am.

The Qur'an is not like the Bible, or other holy books in the fact that it is a direct communication and does not deal internally with the precise context of all event's, which is why we look to the Hadith and the Sunnah, to discern the Chronological revelation of verses and link this to happenings of the times in relation to why these verses were revealed and ordained.
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Easy. I hate it because of what it teaches about women, and what happens to cultures when it adopts it. ******** Sharia.


NOT TRUE ISLAM IS A RELIGION WHERE BOTH MAN AND WOMAN ARE EQUAL


Really? Are you sure? I wasn't aware that equality means that punitive action is considered acceptable for driving a car.


Your statement would have more of an impact if you actually showed that those actions were done according to Islamic law, but they weren't. There is no such thing as "women can't drive" or "honor killings" in Islam.

And that makes it different how? It still happens. Don't turn a blind eye to these things and act like they don't exist just because they're not corroborated by the Qu'ran or Islamic/Sharia Law.
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Easy. I hate it because of what it teaches about women, and what happens to cultures when it adopts it. ******** Sharia.


NOT TRUE ISLAM IS A RELIGION WHERE BOTH MAN AND WOMAN ARE EQUAL


Really? Are you sure? I wasn't aware that equality means that punitive action is considered acceptable for driving a car.


Your statement would have more of an impact if you actually showed that those actions were done according to Islamic law, but they weren't. There is no such thing as "women can't drive" or "honor killings" in Islam.


And that makes it different how? It still happens. Don't turn a blind eye to these things and act like they don't exist just because they're not corroborated by the Qu'ran or Islamic/Sharia Law.

So if it's not Coaborated by the Qur'an or Islamic/Shariah law..

Why are you brining it up in a discussion about Islam?
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Really? Are you sure? I wasn't aware that equality means that punitive action is considered acceptable for driving a car.


Your statement would have more of an impact if you actually showed that those actions were done according to Islamic law, but they weren't. There is no such thing as "women can't drive" or "honor killings" in Islam.


And that makes it different how? It still happens. Don't turn a blind eye to these things and act like they don't exist just because they're not corroborated by the Qu'ran or Islamic/Sharia Law.


So if it's not corroborated by the Qur'an or Islamic/Shariah law..

Why are you bringing it up in a discussion about Islam?


Let me ask you a few questions, since you're more of an authority on the matter. Serious questions. How are things like these crimes viewed by Islamic culture as a whole? Do you think that these crimes are viewed differently by Muslims in America than Muslims in places like Iran? Are the court systems over there more lenient on the perpetrators because it's culturally acceptable to honor kill or stone a woman?
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Really? Are you sure? I wasn't aware that equality means that punitive action is considered acceptable for driving a car.


Your statement would have more of an impact if you actually showed that those actions were done according to Islamic law, but they weren't. There is no such thing as "women can't drive" or "honor killings" in Islam.


And that makes it different how? It still happens. Don't turn a blind eye to these things and act like they don't exist just because they're not corroborated by the Qu'ran or Islamic/Sharia Law.


So if it's not corroborated by the Qur'an or Islamic/Shariah law..

Why are you bringing it up in a discussion about Islam?


Let me ask you a few questions, since you're more of an authority on the matter. Serious questions. How are things like these crimes viewed by Islamic culture as a whole? Do you think that these crimes are viewed differently by Muslims in America than Muslims in places like Iran? Are the court systems over there more lenient on the perpetrators because it's culturally acceptable to honor kill or stone a woman?


Crimes like not allowing a woman to drive?

It's detested, Saudi Arabia has received immeasurable formal protest from the majority of Islamic states, the wahabi movement as a whole has become globally detested and the source of jest to the common Muslim over it.

Not to mention the vast internal discontent from the Saudi Population (men and woman) over it.
Reforms are coming, they are just sadly coming slowly due to the highly authoritive nature of the Saudi Government, and it's orginizational skills to do it better.

From my experience in Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi, Malaysia and Turkey I found that only in Afghanistan(north) was it really an "accepted" aspect that Honor Killings took place, even then it was not liked by the majority it was just a feared aspect of the culture.

Everywhere else, I found it to be deplored.
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Your statement would have more of an impact if you actually showed that those actions were done according to Islamic law, but they weren't. There is no such thing as "women can't drive" or "honor killings" in Islam.


And that makes it different how? It still happens. Don't turn a blind eye to these things and act like they don't exist just because they're not corroborated by the Qu'ran or Islamic/Sharia Law.


So if it's not corroborated by the Qur'an or Islamic/Shariah law..

Why are you bringing it up in a discussion about Islam?


Let me ask you a few questions, since you're more of an authority on the matter. Serious questions. How are things like these crimes viewed by Islamic culture as a whole? Do you think that these crimes are viewed differently by Muslims in America than Muslims in places like Iran? Are the court systems over there more lenient on the perpetrators because it's culturally acceptable to honor kill or stone a woman?


Crimes like not allowing a woman to drive?

It's detested, Saudi Arabia has received immeasurable formal protest from the majority of Islamic states, the wahabi movement as a whole has become globally detested and the source of jest to the common Muslim over it.

Not to mention the vast internal discontent from the Saudi Population (men and woman) over it.
Reforms are coming, they are just sadly coming slowly due to the highly authoritative nature of the Saudi Government, and it's organizational skills to do it better.

From my experience in Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi, Malaysia and Turkey I found that only in Afghanistan(north) was it really an "accepted" aspect that Honor Killings took place, even then it was not liked by the majority it was just a feared aspect of the culture.

Everywhere else, I found it to be deplored.


No, I was referring to crimes like murder.

Do you think that it's considered deplorable because of the loss of innocent life, or just because it reflects poorly on the faith? Or both?
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Your statement would have more of an impact if you actually showed that those actions were done according to Islamic law, but they weren't. There is no such thing as "women can't drive" or "honor killings" in Islam.


And that makes it different how? It still happens. Don't turn a blind eye to these things and act like they don't exist just because they're not corroborated by the Qu'ran or Islamic/Sharia Law.


So if it's not corroborated by the Qur'an or Islamic/Shariah law..

Why are you bringing it up in a discussion about Islam?


Let me ask you a few questions, since you're more of an authority on the matter. Serious questions. How are things like these crimes viewed by Islamic culture as a whole? Do you think that these crimes are viewed differently by Muslims in America than Muslims in places like Iran? Are the court systems over there more lenient on the perpetrators because it's culturally acceptable to honor kill or stone a woman?


Crimes like not allowing a woman to drive?

It's detested, Saudi Arabia has received immeasurable formal protest from the majority of Islamic states, the wahabi movement as a whole has become globally detested and the source of jest to the common Muslim over it.

Not to mention the vast internal discontent from the Saudi Population (men and woman) over it.
Reforms are coming, they are just sadly coming slowly due to the highly authoritative nature of the Saudi Government, and it's organizational skills to do it better.

From my experience in Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi, Malaysia and Turkey I found that only in Afghanistan(north) was it really an "accepted" aspect that Honor Killings took place, even then it was not liked by the majority it was just a feared aspect of the culture.

Everywhere else, I found it to be deplored.


No, I was referring to crimes like murder.

Do you think that it's considered deplorable because of the loss of innocent life, or just because it reflects poorly on the faith? Or both?


Both.

Murder is one of those universally disliked things, and the middle-east is no different.
This is before we get into the clear Theological prohibitions.
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So if it's not corroborated by the Qur'an or Islamic/Shariah law..

Why are you bringing it up in a discussion about Islam?


Let me ask you a few questions, since you're more of an authority on the matter. Serious questions. How are things like these crimes viewed by Islamic culture as a whole? Do you think that these crimes are viewed differently by Muslims in America than Muslims in places like Iran? Are the court systems over there more lenient on the perpetrators because it's culturally acceptable to honor kill or stone a woman?


Crimes like not allowing a woman to drive?

It's detested, Saudi Arabia has received immeasurable formal protest from the majority of Islamic states, the wahabi movement as a whole has become globally detested and the source of jest to the common Muslim over it.

Not to mention the vast internal discontent from the Saudi Population (men and woman) over it.
Reforms are coming, they are just sadly coming slowly due to the highly authoritative nature of the Saudi Government, and it's organizational skills to do it better.

From my experience in Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi, Malaysia and Turkey I found that only in Afghanistan(north) was it really an "accepted" aspect that Honor Killings took place, even then it was not liked by the majority it was just a feared aspect of the culture.

Everywhere else, I found it to be deplored.


No, I was referring to crimes like murder.

Do you think that it's considered deplorable because of the loss of innocent life, or just because it reflects poorly on the faith? Or both?


Both.

Murder is one of those universally disliked things, and the middle-east is no different.
This is before we get into the clear Theological prohibitions.


Well, I'll take your word for it.
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So if it's not corroborated by the Qur'an or Islamic/Shariah law..

Why are you bringing it up in a discussion about Islam?


Let me ask you a few questions, since you're more of an authority on the matter. Serious questions. How are things like these crimes viewed by Islamic culture as a whole? Do you think that these crimes are viewed differently by Muslims in America than Muslims in places like Iran? Are the court systems over there more lenient on the perpetrators because it's culturally acceptable to honor kill or stone a woman?


Crimes like not allowing a woman to drive?

It's detested, Saudi Arabia has received immeasurable formal protest from the majority of Islamic states, the wahabi movement as a whole has become globally detested and the source of jest to the common Muslim over it.

Not to mention the vast internal discontent from the Saudi Population (men and woman) over it.
Reforms are coming, they are just sadly coming slowly due to the highly authoritative nature of the Saudi Government, and it's organizational skills to do it better.

From my experience in Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi, Malaysia and Turkey I found that only in Afghanistan(north) was it really an "accepted" aspect that Honor Killings took place, even then it was not liked by the majority it was just a feared aspect of the culture.

Everywhere else, I found it to be deplored.


No, I was referring to crimes like murder.

Do you think that it's considered deplorable because of the loss of innocent life, or just because it reflects poorly on the faith? Or both?


Both.

Murder is one of those universally disliked things, and the middle-east is no different.
This is before we get into the clear Theological prohibitions.


Well, I'll take your word for it.


I find it humbling you would, especially in M&R +respect points for you.
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gothic_sweetheart
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GunsmithKitten
Easy. I hate it because of what it teaches about women, and what happens to cultures when it adopts it. ******** Sharia.


NOT TRUE ISLAM IS A RELIGION WHERE BOTH MAN AND WOMAN ARE EQUAL


Really? Are you sure? I wasn't aware that equality means that punitive action is considered acceptable for driving a car.


Your statement would have more of an impact if you actually showed that those actions were done according to Islamic law, but they weren't. There is no such thing as "women can't drive" or "honor killings" in Islam.


Quote:
And that makes it different how? It still happens.


Well we live on planet Earth, and life isn't perfect, so regardless of what laws or rules there are to govern each society, there will be those who break it in one way or another. emo

Quote:
Don't turn a blind eye to these things and act like they don't exist just because they're not corroborated by the Qu'ran or Islamic/Sharia Law.


Woah! Since when did I imply something like that? I was just clarifying that it has nothing to do with Islam. Trust me, these kind of things anger me just as much. mad

Have a good day. smile

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