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Pseudo-Onkelos's avatar

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Kelevra Black
Okay... Then explain to me in what context God did not make peace and create evil, even though he plainly says it.
I am paying attention to context, but I am also paying attention to logic and not simply saying "God is good because he is God and that is what I believe."

I am asking you to make a logical connection between God's obvious atrocities and him being omni-benevolent...
Explain that, with logic.
And it is not logical to just say, "Because he is God." That is a cop-out. That isn't an argument.


The context here is that evil is used in contrast with peace. The opposite of peace is war. The English Standard Version says "calamity" instead of "evil". Of course, I don't know anyone who would say war or calamity are good things. It would make sense for a war god like Yahweh to cause wars, however. (See Amos 3:6.) Yahweh can't be called "good", however, as the video posted clearly demonstrates God works with "might is right" and is only on Israel's side.
Kelevra Black's avatar

Dangerous Genius

Allard Kent
Kelevra Black
So was wickedness.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
-- Isaiah 45:7

God himself says that he created evil...

He made humans capable of committing evil (sin)...

Sin began with God.

Maybe humans committed the first sin... But the very fact that sin exists is because God created sin.


You said you studied the bible, why are you deliberately using an old translation, and the literal meaning, without regards to context?


Okay... Then explain to me in what context God did not make peace and create evil, even though he plainly says it.
I am paying attention to context, but I am also paying attention to logic and not simply saying "God is good because he is God and that is what I believe."

I am asking you to make a logical connection between God's obvious atrocities and him being omni-benevolent...
Explain that, with logic.
And it is not logical to just say, "Because he is God." That is a cop-out. That isn't an argument.
Kelevra Black's avatar

Dangerous Genius

So was wickedness.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
-- Isaiah 45:7

God himself says that he created evil...

He made humans capable of committing evil (sin)...

Sin began with God.

Maybe humans committed the first sin... But the very fact that sin exists is because God created sin.
Kelevra Black
Matt1720
Kelevra Black
Matt1720
Kelevra Black
Allard Kent


A gift is not something you demand, it is something freely given.
The Law demanded it. The Price for sin is death.

The law was there to show how far removed from the divine we were.

I don't understand how you can call the crucifixion immoral, and remark on how horrible it would be, for someone to go through that-indeed Jesus himself was terrified, and then take that suffering and pain and demean it.

How am I to trust your morality over the divine, when what comes out of your mouth is the same immorality you claim to be against?

I decided ages ago, that if ever there came a time, when I decided to leave Christianity, I would always respect a man who faced with such terror, could walk the path he chose to the bitter end.

Isaiah 55:8-9 NIV
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.


How is what I am saying immoral?
I simply do not believe the bible is true or your god is good...
But, out of respect for you and your arguments, I have been operating under the assumption that the Bible is actually true history... I've only asked you to make the connection that shows the events in the Bible point to a God of goodness and compassion... Using logic, and not using the "Because he is God" argument.

Do not use special pleading... Use logic.
The price for sin is death... Fine.
If a truly loving God wanted to forgive the people of the world, he could have just forgiven them... But he CHOSE to send himself to Earth so he could sacrifice himself to himself so he could create a loophole in the rules that he created, because for some reason, even though he deems himself an exception to his own rules, he could not break the "price of sin is death" rule...

If he COULD NOT simply forgive us without killing someone, he is not a God that demonstrates forgiveness and compassion, he is a God that demands blood... That is not a good God...

So if I am wrong, prove me wrong without using special pleading.
Sin started with humans, and Christ died, as a human, thus putting an 'end to sin' and throwing in that "loophole".


No, no, no, no, no.... Sin didn't start with Humans...
Sin started with God... when he created it.
That video is interesting.
God didn't create sin. People used the gifts God gave them and bent them for their own will. Wickedness.


So it began with Wickedness... Which was created by God.
Free will was created by God.
Kelevra Black's avatar

Dangerous Genius

Matt1720
Kelevra Black
Matt1720
Kelevra Black
Allard Kent


A gift is not something you demand, it is something freely given.
The Law demanded it. The Price for sin is death.

The law was there to show how far removed from the divine we were.

I don't understand how you can call the crucifixion immoral, and remark on how horrible it would be, for someone to go through that-indeed Jesus himself was terrified, and then take that suffering and pain and demean it.

How am I to trust your morality over the divine, when what comes out of your mouth is the same immorality you claim to be against?

I decided ages ago, that if ever there came a time, when I decided to leave Christianity, I would always respect a man who faced with such terror, could walk the path he chose to the bitter end.

Isaiah 55:8-9 NIV
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.


How is what I am saying immoral?
I simply do not believe the bible is true or your god is good...
But, out of respect for you and your arguments, I have been operating under the assumption that the Bible is actually true history... I've only asked you to make the connection that shows the events in the Bible point to a God of goodness and compassion... Using logic, and not using the "Because he is God" argument.

Do not use special pleading... Use logic.
The price for sin is death... Fine.
If a truly loving God wanted to forgive the people of the world, he could have just forgiven them... But he CHOSE to send himself to Earth so he could sacrifice himself to himself so he could create a loophole in the rules that he created, because for some reason, even though he deems himself an exception to his own rules, he could not break the "price of sin is death" rule...

If he COULD NOT simply forgive us without killing someone, he is not a God that demonstrates forgiveness and compassion, he is a God that demands blood... That is not a good God...

So if I am wrong, prove me wrong without using special pleading.
Sin started with humans, and Christ died, as a human, thus putting an 'end to sin' and throwing in that "loophole".


No, no, no, no, no.... Sin didn't start with Humans...
Sin started with God... when he created it.
That video is interesting.
God didn't create sin. People used the gifts God gave them and bent them for their own will. Wickedness.


So it began with Wickedness... Which was created by God.
Kelevra Black
Matt1720
Kelevra Black
Allard Kent
Kelevra Black
haruki_jitsunin
Wait, I thought YAHWEH didn't develop compassion until the new testament. That kind of explains all his general lack of compassion in the old testament. I mean, to deny every non-jewish person into heaven before Jesus? That's like (in modern-biblical-temporal understanding) ~4000 years of people that all died and went straight to hell without any chance of personalized salvation. How is that at all a compassionate god? I guess having children really does change people...


Think about this though...

God, instead of just lifting the curse that he placed on every human that he would ever exist because Eve ate something she wasn't supposed to and shared it with Adam... God, instead, sends his "only son" to live a perfect life, be horrifically tortured and killed, and then rise from the dead and ascend into heaven so that a loophole can be created to protect us from something that GOD inflicted upon us in the first place.

Jesus Christ's death was a human sacrifice.

God, who is supposed to be the paragon of morality, asks people in the Old Testament to kill their children... Then, in the New Testament, his idea to save them is to KILL HIS OWN.

God did not give us a son to save us, he loaned us one.
He did not offer one, because nobody demanded it.

There was so far no problem that had been identified in the human species that demands a human sacrifice.
For what ill was the crucifixion a cure?

It was imposed upon us.
God basically said "I'm doing this, because the Prophets said I would. And I am going to have the boy tortured and killed in public to fulfill ancient screeds of bronze-age Judaism."

If they had known what was coming, the people might have replied. "But wait... I don't want it. I don't need it. I don't feel better for it. I feel very uneasy about it."

To which God said, "Well, that's a pity because, then, you're going to be cast into eternal fire."

... How is that developing compassion?


A gift is not something you demand, it is something freely given.
The Law demanded it. The Price for sin is death.

The law was there to show how far removed from the divine we were.

I don't understand how you can call the crucifixion immoral, and remark on how horrible it would be, for someone to go through that-indeed Jesus himself was terrified, and then take that suffering and pain and demean it.

How am I to trust your morality over the divine, when what comes out of your mouth is the same immorality you claim to be against?

I decided ages ago, that if ever there came a time, when I decided to leave Christianity, I would always respect a man who faced with such terror, could walk the path he chose to the bitter end.

Isaiah 55:8-9 NIV
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.


How is what I am saying immoral?
I simply do not believe the bible is true or your god is good...
But, out of respect for you and your arguments, I have been operating under the assumption that the Bible is actually true history... I've only asked you to make the connection that shows the events in the Bible point to a God of goodness and compassion... Using logic, and not using the "Because he is God" argument.

Do not use special pleading... Use logic.
The price for sin is death... Fine.
If a truly loving God wanted to forgive the people of the world, he could have just forgiven them... But he CHOSE to send himself to Earth so he could sacrifice himself to himself so he could create a loophole in the rules that he created, because for some reason, even though he deems himself an exception to his own rules, he could not break the "price of sin is death" rule...

If he COULD NOT simply forgive us without killing someone, he is not a God that demonstrates forgiveness and compassion, he is a God that demands blood... That is not a good God...

So if I am wrong, prove me wrong without using special pleading.
Sin started with humans, and Christ died, as a human, thus putting an 'end to sin' and throwing in that "loophole".


No, no, no, no, no.... Sin didn't start with Humans...
Sin started with God... when he created it.
That video is interesting.
God didn't create sin. People used the gifts God gave them and bent them for their own will. Wickedness.
Kelevra Black's avatar

Dangerous Genius

Matt1720
Kelevra Black
Allard Kent
Kelevra Black
haruki_jitsunin
Wait, I thought YAHWEH didn't develop compassion until the new testament. That kind of explains all his general lack of compassion in the old testament. I mean, to deny every non-jewish person into heaven before Jesus? That's like (in modern-biblical-temporal understanding) ~4000 years of people that all died and went straight to hell without any chance of personalized salvation. How is that at all a compassionate god? I guess having children really does change people...


Think about this though...

God, instead of just lifting the curse that he placed on every human that he would ever exist because Eve ate something she wasn't supposed to and shared it with Adam... God, instead, sends his "only son" to live a perfect life, be horrifically tortured and killed, and then rise from the dead and ascend into heaven so that a loophole can be created to protect us from something that GOD inflicted upon us in the first place.

Jesus Christ's death was a human sacrifice.

God, who is supposed to be the paragon of morality, asks people in the Old Testament to kill their children... Then, in the New Testament, his idea to save them is to KILL HIS OWN.

God did not give us a son to save us, he loaned us one.
He did not offer one, because nobody demanded it.

There was so far no problem that had been identified in the human species that demands a human sacrifice.
For what ill was the crucifixion a cure?

It was imposed upon us.
God basically said "I'm doing this, because the Prophets said I would. And I am going to have the boy tortured and killed in public to fulfill ancient screeds of bronze-age Judaism."

If they had known what was coming, the people might have replied. "But wait... I don't want it. I don't need it. I don't feel better for it. I feel very uneasy about it."

To which God said, "Well, that's a pity because, then, you're going to be cast into eternal fire."

... How is that developing compassion?


A gift is not something you demand, it is something freely given.
The Law demanded it. The Price for sin is death.

The law was there to show how far removed from the divine we were.

I don't understand how you can call the crucifixion immoral, and remark on how horrible it would be, for someone to go through that-indeed Jesus himself was terrified, and then take that suffering and pain and demean it.

How am I to trust your morality over the divine, when what comes out of your mouth is the same immorality you claim to be against?

I decided ages ago, that if ever there came a time, when I decided to leave Christianity, I would always respect a man who faced with such terror, could walk the path he chose to the bitter end.

Isaiah 55:8-9 NIV
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.


How is what I am saying immoral?
I simply do not believe the bible is true or your god is good...
But, out of respect for you and your arguments, I have been operating under the assumption that the Bible is actually true history... I've only asked you to make the connection that shows the events in the Bible point to a God of goodness and compassion... Using logic, and not using the "Because he is God" argument.

Do not use special pleading... Use logic.
The price for sin is death... Fine.
If a truly loving God wanted to forgive the people of the world, he could have just forgiven them... But he CHOSE to send himself to Earth so he could sacrifice himself to himself so he could create a loophole in the rules that he created, because for some reason, even though he deems himself an exception to his own rules, he could not break the "price of sin is death" rule...

If he COULD NOT simply forgive us without killing someone, he is not a God that demonstrates forgiveness and compassion, he is a God that demands blood... That is not a good God...

So if I am wrong, prove me wrong without using special pleading.
Sin started with humans, and Christ died, as a human, thus putting an 'end to sin' and throwing in that "loophole".


No, no, no, no, no.... Sin didn't start with Humans...
Sin started with God... when he created it.
Kelevra Black's avatar

Dangerous Genius

Matt1720
Kelevra Black
Matt1720
Wow, people really haven't read Job.


The Lord doesn't revolve around you. It's not about you. It's about God. He doesn't have to explain anything. Label him as you are, but by the very breath in your body, you are here by his GRACE. By his eternal mercy. Believe it, or not. Take it, or leave it.


Special pleading.
Statements like this don't prove your God is good, they only prove you are brainwashed.

You accept everything without question because the price of questioning is eternity in Hell... God wants thought-slaves, and that is what you're giving him.
Really? Well, shoot. I thought me being here was a great blessing. Ah, man. You got me.

At least you aren't one of those "GOD IS HEARTLESS AND DOESN'T EXIST" type people. Who can't make up their mind whether He is heartless, or does not exist.

Everything The Lord does is to further His Glory. That's why He didn't crush that King in Egypt in Exodus. He wanted to demonstrate His power and grace, and did it in steps. Here's a river of blood. Here's a cloud of locusts. All your cattle is dead.

He tasked Moses to lead His people out of slavery. Sounds like a good God to me. He destroys and killed other kingdoms because they worshipped the wrong gods. And My God, is a selfish God. Who wants all of us to Himself.

Blessed are we. n___n


Actually, I am an Atheist. But I am not a stupid Atheist. I know a God can not be disproved, but I also recognize that there is a complete lack of evidence to support the existence of a God, and so I do not believe God exists.
Let me repeat"
I do not believe God exists...

Not to be confused with: "I believe God does not exist."
There is a difference...

I live my life as if there is no God, but when people who believe God exists begin making assertions or encroaching upon my rights because they think their God is good, I do debate it with logic.

And allow me to quote something from you.
Everything The Lord does is to further His Glory.


Lucifer was kicked out of Heaven because he was too prideful, which lead to his rebellion... And your God is prideful as well.
God kicked Lucifer out of Heaven for being too prideful. Yet you say God does everything to further his own glory...
That is a God of pride... Therefor, with simple logic, your god is a hypocrite.

Now, I am going to reply to the rest of this with one of the single greatest videos of all time.
It addresses many of your points, and it does so with a very elegant speech.
Please watch it. It is not an Atheist video...

Kelevra Black
Allard Kent
Kelevra Black
haruki_jitsunin
Wait, I thought YAHWEH didn't develop compassion until the new testament. That kind of explains all his general lack of compassion in the old testament. I mean, to deny every non-jewish person into heaven before Jesus? That's like (in modern-biblical-temporal understanding) ~4000 years of people that all died and went straight to hell without any chance of personalized salvation. How is that at all a compassionate god? I guess having children really does change people...


Think about this though...

God, instead of just lifting the curse that he placed on every human that he would ever exist because Eve ate something she wasn't supposed to and shared it with Adam... God, instead, sends his "only son" to live a perfect life, be horrifically tortured and killed, and then rise from the dead and ascend into heaven so that a loophole can be created to protect us from something that GOD inflicted upon us in the first place.

Jesus Christ's death was a human sacrifice.

God, who is supposed to be the paragon of morality, asks people in the Old Testament to kill their children... Then, in the New Testament, his idea to save them is to KILL HIS OWN.

God did not give us a son to save us, he loaned us one.
He did not offer one, because nobody demanded it.

There was so far no problem that had been identified in the human species that demands a human sacrifice.
For what ill was the crucifixion a cure?

It was imposed upon us.
God basically said "I'm doing this, because the Prophets said I would. And I am going to have the boy tortured and killed in public to fulfill ancient screeds of bronze-age Judaism."

If they had known what was coming, the people might have replied. "But wait... I don't want it. I don't need it. I don't feel better for it. I feel very uneasy about it."

To which God said, "Well, that's a pity because, then, you're going to be cast into eternal fire."

... How is that developing compassion?


A gift is not something you demand, it is something freely given.
The Law demanded it. The Price for sin is death.

The law was there to show how far removed from the divine we were.

I don't understand how you can call the crucifixion immoral, and remark on how horrible it would be, for someone to go through that-indeed Jesus himself was terrified, and then take that suffering and pain and demean it.

How am I to trust your morality over the divine, when what comes out of your mouth is the same immorality you claim to be against?

I decided ages ago, that if ever there came a time, when I decided to leave Christianity, I would always respect a man who faced with such terror, could walk the path he chose to the bitter end.

Isaiah 55:8-9 NIV
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.


How is what I am saying immoral?
I simply do not believe the bible is true or your god is good...
But, out of respect for you and your arguments, I have been operating under the assumption that the Bible is actually true history... I've only asked you to make the connection that shows the events in the Bible point to a God of goodness and compassion... Using logic, and not using the "Because he is God" argument.

Do not use special pleading... Use logic.
The price for sin is death... Fine.
If a truly loving God wanted to forgive the people of the world, he could have just forgiven them... But he CHOSE to send himself to Earth so he could sacrifice himself to himself so he could create a loophole in the rules that he created, because for some reason, even though he deems himself an exception to his own rules, he could not break the "price of sin is death" rule...

If he COULD NOT simply forgive us without killing someone, he is not a God that demonstrates forgiveness and compassion, he is a God that demands blood... That is not a good God...

So if I am wrong, prove me wrong without using special pleading.
Sin started with humans, and Christ died, as a human, thus putting an 'end to sin' and throwing in that "loophole".
Kelevra Black
Matt1720
Wow, people really haven't read Job.


The Lord doesn't revolve around you. It's not about you. It's about God. He doesn't have to explain anything. Label him as you are, but by the very breath in your body, you are here by his GRACE. By his eternal mercy. Believe it, or not. Take it, or leave it.


Special pleading.
Statements like this don't prove your God is good, they only prove you are brainwashed.

You accept everything without question because the price of questioning is eternity in Hell... God wants thought-slaves, and that is what you're giving him.
Really? Well, shoot. I thought me being here was a great blessing. Ah, man. You got me.

At least you aren't one of those "GOD IS HEARTLESS AND DOESN'T EXIST" type people. Who can't make up their mind whether He is heartless, or does not exist.

Everything The Lord does is to further His Glory. That's why He didn't crush that King in Egypt in Exodus. He wanted to demonstrate His power and grace, and did it in steps. Here's a river of blood. Here's a cloud of locusts. All your cattle is dead.

He tasked Moses to lead His people out of slavery. Sounds like a good God to me. He destroys and killed other kingdoms because they worshipped the wrong gods. And My God, is a selfish God. Who wants all of us to Himself.

Blessed are we. n___n
Kelevra Black's avatar

Dangerous Genius

Allard Kent
Kelevra Black
haruki_jitsunin
Wait, I thought YAHWEH didn't develop compassion until the new testament. That kind of explains all his general lack of compassion in the old testament. I mean, to deny every non-jewish person into heaven before Jesus? That's like (in modern-biblical-temporal understanding) ~4000 years of people that all died and went straight to hell without any chance of personalized salvation. How is that at all a compassionate god? I guess having children really does change people...


Think about this though...

God, instead of just lifting the curse that he placed on every human that he would ever exist because Eve ate something she wasn't supposed to and shared it with Adam... God, instead, sends his "only son" to live a perfect life, be horrifically tortured and killed, and then rise from the dead and ascend into heaven so that a loophole can be created to protect us from something that GOD inflicted upon us in the first place.

Jesus Christ's death was a human sacrifice.

God, who is supposed to be the paragon of morality, asks people in the Old Testament to kill their children... Then, in the New Testament, his idea to save them is to KILL HIS OWN.

God did not give us a son to save us, he loaned us one.
He did not offer one, because nobody demanded it.

There was so far no problem that had been identified in the human species that demands a human sacrifice.
For what ill was the crucifixion a cure?

It was imposed upon us.
God basically said "I'm doing this, because the Prophets said I would. And I am going to have the boy tortured and killed in public to fulfill ancient screeds of bronze-age Judaism."

If they had known what was coming, the people might have replied. "But wait... I don't want it. I don't need it. I don't feel better for it. I feel very uneasy about it."

To which God said, "Well, that's a pity because, then, you're going to be cast into eternal fire."

... How is that developing compassion?


A gift is not something you demand, it is something freely given.
The Law demanded it. The Price for sin is death.

The law was there to show how far removed from the divine we were.

I don't understand how you can call the crucifixion immoral, and remark on how horrible it would be, for someone to go through that-indeed Jesus himself was terrified, and then take that suffering and pain and demean it.

How am I to trust your morality over the divine, when what comes out of your mouth is the same immorality you claim to be against?

I decided ages ago, that if ever there came a time, when I decided to leave Christianity, I would always respect a man who faced with such terror, could walk the path he chose to the bitter end.

Isaiah 55:8-9 NIV
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.


How is what I am saying immoral?
I simply do not believe the bible is true or your god is good...
But, out of respect for you and your arguments, I have been operating under the assumption that the Bible is actually true history... I've only asked you to make the connection that shows the events in the Bible point to a God of goodness and compassion... Using logic, and not using the "Because he is God" argument.

Do not use special pleading... Use logic.
The price for sin is death... Fine.
If a truly loving God wanted to forgive the people of the world, he could have just forgiven them... But he CHOSE to send himself to Earth so he could sacrifice himself to himself so he could create a loophole in the rules that he created, because for some reason, even though he deems himself an exception to his own rules, he could not break the "price of sin is death" rule...

If he COULD NOT simply forgive us without killing someone, he is not a God that demonstrates forgiveness and compassion, he is a God that demands blood... That is not a good God...

So if I am wrong, prove me wrong without using special pleading.
Kelevra Black's avatar

Dangerous Genius

Matt1720
Wow, people really haven't read Job.


The Lord doesn't revolve around you. It's not about you. It's about God. He doesn't have to explain anything. Label him as you are, but by the very breath in your body, you are here by his GRACE. By his eternal mercy. Believe it, or not. Take it, or leave it.


Special pleading.
Statements like this don't prove your God is good, they only prove you are brainwashed.

You accept everything without question because the price of questioning is eternity in Hell... God wants thought-slaves, and that is what you're giving him.

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