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Pseudo-Onkelos's avatar

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Allard Kent
Pseudo-Onkelos
Allard Kent
I think you don't truly understand the difference between God and a Human. otherwise you wouldn't think the wisdom of man is more than the wisdom of God, or that something with finite understanding, can discern enough more. between the concepts of Good and Evil, than one with Infinite knowledge.

You can philosophy and posture all you want, but that is what it boils down too.
How can you Judge someone, and not know the entirety of the law. You can't- you wouldn't be qualified.

Job 38:1-3, KJV
1.Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2.Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3.Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.


Your god has said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil." (Gen. 3:22) He makes no distinction between what he knows of good and evil and what humans know of what is good and evil. I judge your god by his very knowledge of good and evil, and I say of your god that he is not good.


Oh come on, that's so weak and you know it.
He also makes distinctions between the knowledge of man, and his knowledge. also the qualifications of Man vs Him. hence the conversation in Job 38.
The bible is full of observations on his knowledge, and wisdom.

You've read the bible so you know what I'm getting at. so lets not play the semantics game or have a verse battle, to which we move on to, the translation game, then the validity of the new testament, and then finally the literal vs, metaphoric game. To which this argument ends in a stalemate.


That's not an argument. It's not my fault your scriptures are inconsistent. That's understandable, of course, considering theological changes throughout history and having different authors. Your god in Job can't even address anything. He just throws out questions to shut Job up.
Kelevra Black's avatar

Dangerous Genius

Pseudo, I love you, man.
Pseudo-Onkelos's avatar

Adored Admirer

Allard Kent
Pseudo-Onkelos
Allard Kent
Pseudo-Onkelos
Allard Kent
I think you don't truly understand the difference between God and a Human. otherwise you wouldn't think the wisdom of man is more than the wisdom of God, or that something with finite understanding, can discern enough more. between the concepts of Good and Evil, than one with Infinite knowledge.

You can philosophy and posture all you want, but that is what it boils down too.
How can you Judge someone, and not know the entirety of the law. You can't- you wouldn't be qualified.

Job 38:1-3, KJV
1.Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2.Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3.Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.


Your god has said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil." (Gen. 3:22) He makes no distinction between what he knows of good and evil and what humans know of what is good and evil. I judge your god by his very knowledge of good and evil, and I say of your god that he is not good.


Oh come on, that's so weak and you know it.
He also makes distinctions between the knowledge of man, and his knowledge. also the qualifications of Man vs Him. hence the conversation in Job 38.
The bible is full of observations on his knowledge, and wisdom.

You've read the bible so you know what I'm getting at. so lets not play the semantics game or have a verse battle, to which we move on to, the translation game, then the validity of the new testament, and then finally the literal vs, metaphoric game. To which this argument ends in a stalemate.


That's not an argument. It's not my fault your scriptures are inconsistent. That's understandable, of course, considering theological changes throughout history and having different authors. Your god in Job can't even address anything. He just throws out questions to shut Job up.


Inconsistent, depending on your ability to interpret them. That's the point, God doesn't have to address anything, because who are you to ask questions? To talk on subjects that you, compared to Him don't have an inkling about? You are accountable to Him, He is not accountable to you. He made you, you belong to Him.

That is what it comes down to.


Nice to know your god would rather have ignorant followers. What a pathetic god who can't even answer questions brought forth by humans who are supposedly stupid to him by comparison. What a ******** stupid god.
Kelevra Black's avatar

Dangerous Genius

Allard Kent
Pseudo-Onkelos
Allard Kent
Pseudo-Onkelos
Allard Kent
I think you don't truly understand the difference between God and a Human. otherwise you wouldn't think the wisdom of man is more than the wisdom of God, or that something with finite understanding, can discern enough more. between the concepts of Good and Evil, than one with Infinite knowledge.

You can philosophy and posture all you want, but that is what it boils down too.
How can you Judge someone, and not know the entirety of the law. You can't- you wouldn't be qualified.

Job 38:1-3, KJV
1.Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2.Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3.Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.


Your god has said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil." (Gen. 3:22) He makes no distinction between what he knows of good and evil and what humans know of what is good and evil. I judge your god by his very knowledge of good and evil, and I say of your god that he is not good.


Oh come on, that's so weak and you know it.
He also makes distinctions between the knowledge of man, and his knowledge. also the qualifications of Man vs Him. hence the conversation in Job 38.
The bible is full of observations on his knowledge, and wisdom.

You've read the bible so you know what I'm getting at. so lets not play the semantics game or have a verse battle, to which we move on to, the translation game, then the validity of the new testament, and then finally the literal vs, metaphoric game. To which this argument ends in a stalemate.


That's not an argument. It's not my fault your scriptures are inconsistent. That's understandable, of course, considering theological changes throughout history and having different authors. Your god in Job can't even address anything. He just throws out questions to shut Job up.


Inconsistent, depending on your ability to interpret them. That's the point, God doesn't have to address anything, because who are you to ask questions? To talk on subjects that you, compared to Him don't have an inkling about? You are accountable to Him, He is not accountable to you. He made you, you belong to Him.

That is what it comes down to.


And you consider that moral?
God does not have to teach us the proper answers, and he chooses not to... He refuses to show himself, and then abandons all those who doubt his existence to eternal torture in Hell?

And you consider that okay because we belong to him?
Let's use an analogy...
A baby is created by its parents, and is therefor their responsibility. Given the fact that parents have control over the body of their child until the child reaches the age of consent, it is fair to call the child their "property", even if we don't want to look at it that way.

So the parents place their baby in a maze which has two outcomes -- at one is the exit, and at the other is a pit filled with razor blades, rusty needles, and searing hot pokers -- and the parents leave the room, giving the baby no encouragement to go down one path or another...
If the baby finds certain death, is that the fault of the baby?
What if the baby were older... around five or size, and knew what was at the end of each path... Would the child be allowed to ask his parents questions, or would that be out of line?


Now, I understand that this analogy may seem unfair to you, because we are more intelligent than a baby with zero understanding of consequence, or a five year old with limited understanding of authority...
... But according to you, in comparison to God, we're just babies that know pretty much nothing.

Your argument is a cop out.
You, like so many others, just write off God's atrocities as something we can't understand, because you want to believe he's good. You don't care if it's the truth or not...
You want to believe it, because you want to believe it... because you want to believe it.
Kelevra Black's avatar

Dangerous Genius

Allard Kent
Pseudo-Onkelos


Your god has said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil." (Gen. 3:22) He makes no distinction between what he knows of good and evil and what humans know of what is good and evil. I judge your god by his very knowledge of good and evil, and I say of your god that he is not good.


Oh come on, that's so weak and you know it.


His Scripture based argument is weak to you...

Allard Kent

You are accountable to Him, He is not accountable to you. He made you, you belong to Him.

That is what it comes down to.


... But this is not... ?


I lol'd... I lol'd real hard.
Kelevra Black's avatar

Dangerous Genius

Allard Kent
Kelevra Black


And you consider that moral?
God does not have to teach us the proper answers, and he chooses not to... He refuses to show himself, and then abandons all those who doubt his existence to eternal torture in Hell?

And you consider that okay because we belong to him?
Let's use an analogy...
A baby is created by its parents, and is therefor their responsibility. Given the fact that parents have control over the body of their child until the child reaches the age of consent, it is fair to call the child their "property", even if we don't want to look at it that way.

So the parents place their baby in a maze which has two outcomes -- at one is the exit, and at the other is a pit filled with razor blades, rusty needles, and searing hot pokers -- and the parents leave the room, giving the baby no encouragement to go down one path or another...
If the baby finds certain death, is that the fault of the baby?
What if the baby were older... around five or size, and knew what was at the end of each path... Would the child be allowed to ask his parents questions, or would that be out of line?


Now, I understand that this analogy may seem unfair to you, because we are more intelligent than a baby with zero understanding of consequence, or a five year old with limited understanding of authority...
... But according to you, in comparison to God, we're just babies that know pretty much nothing.

Your argument is a cop out.
You, like so many others, just write off God's atrocities as something we can't understand, because you want to believe he's good. You don't care if it's the truth or not...
You want to believe it, because you want to believe it... because you want to believe it.



Well it's not so much that it's an unfair analogy, just that it's a horrible one.

So my analogy is a horrible one...

Allard Kent
As well, compared to God, we're on the same plane of existence as a drawing or story is to us.

Every time you crumple a drawing up, throw it away, alter it or otherwise destroy it, are you then a Murderer?


... But this one is not?

You are comparing us to something that does not feel, that is inorganic, and without thought. You are comparing us to words on paper that have no life, when in fact we are people with a life of our own and the ability to feel, think, and grow.


Allard Kent
It's not a cop out, I'm the only one that's taken into account His attributes (Omnipresence, Omniscience Omnipotence) and the attributes of man.

It is a cop out. You're saying that because God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-present... That must mean he is all-GOOD.
Where is that connection made?

Let me explain why this is a cop out, because you seem to be missing the point.
I can accept you saying that we do not understand him. Even though I think that is a load of crap, I'm going to just go along with it and humor you and see if maybe it can help you understand.

If you say, "We can not understand God, and therefor we can not judge him."
That is fine. But that isn't what you're saying.

You're saying, "We can not understand God, and therefor we can not judge him... So let's just say he is good, because that's what I want to believe."

If we can not understand him, how is it that you understand him to be good?

Logic dictates that if you believe in one, you have to reconcile the existence of the other.
You can so easily recognize God's good deeds, but you refuse to take notice of his evil deeds, instead simply writing them off as "misunderstood."
That is where you lack logic.
That is why your argument is a cop out. You are saying God is good, because that is what you want to believe. You don't actually care if it is true or not. If you did, you would not ignore the evidence or try to spin it in a way that makes you feel better about the terrible things he has done.


Allard Kent
We are a finite existence, or minds are finite, we can only comprehend certain things on a certain scale, and there is a limit to how much we can process at any given time. How can you judge something you can't comprehend, using concepts you don't have a full and complete grasp on.
It's akin to being prosecuted by someone who knows nothing of the Law.

Morality, the Dichotomy of Good and Evil, well, as the world changes, and society evolves, our understanding of these things change with the passing of time.

What is Good to you, and in contrast, what is Evil, is subjective to the way you perceive the world
around you.

It is not only arrogant to judge God with your limited capabilities, since he has complete knowledge of the concepts you seek to use,
but to put yourself out to be some sort of Paragon of Morality, based off of what you think, and what you think alone to be the right path, is arrogant on a normal scale as well.


All of that is a cop out. Because it all follows the rules I listed above.
It is fine to defend your God, but it is not fine to defend him dishonestly.
You give no example of why "Omnipotent", "Omnipresent", and "Omniscient" also mean "Omni-Good"...
Show me where that connection is made, and I will relent.
Show me why having those three attributes automatically grants God the title of "Good" while leaving no possibility for the title of "Evil" to also be pinned to his robe.

And don't say something as stupid as "He is God, that's why."
I want an argument based on logic, reason, and evidence supported by reality...
If you can not provide one, or think that you don't need evidence supported by reality, than you have proven that you don't operate or believe in anything based on reality, and therefor any argument you have made or will make can be tossed aside and considered a fairy tale.

Allard Kent
I can't say I expected the denizens of the ED to resort to petty ad homs when when confronted with arguments they don't like. though.

For the record, I have said nothing petty or irrelevant. And if you think my analogy was an "ad hominem", than I would also like to point you toward you comparing our life to that of a page that can just be crumpled.
Or saying that Pseudo's argument is weak, while it was actually based on scripture.

That was all pretty petty as well.
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The God of Abraham hates children, it seems.
Pseudo-Onkelos's avatar

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Blood Valkyrie
The God of Abraham hates children, it seems.


Why expect anything less from a monster?
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Wait, I thought YAHWEH didn't develop compassion until the new testament. That kind of explains all his general lack of compassion in the old testament. I mean, to deny every non-jewish person into heaven before Jesus? That's like (in modern-biblical-temporal understanding) ~4000 years of people that all died and went straight to hell without any chance of personalized salvation. How is that at all a compassionate god? I guess having children really does change people...
Kelevra Black's avatar

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haruki_jitsunin
Wait, I thought YAHWEH didn't develop compassion until the new testament. That kind of explains all his general lack of compassion in the old testament. I mean, to deny every non-jewish person into heaven before Jesus? That's like (in modern-biblical-temporal understanding) ~4000 years of people that all died and went straight to hell without any chance of personalized salvation. How is that at all a compassionate god? I guess having children really does change people...


Think about this though...

God, instead of just lifting the curse that he placed on every human that he would ever exist because Eve ate something she wasn't supposed to and shared it with Adam... God, instead, sends his "only son" to live a perfect life, be horrifically tortured and killed, and then rise from the dead and ascend into heaven so that a loophole can be created to protect us from something that GOD inflicted upon us in the first place.

Jesus Christ's death was a human sacrifice.

God, who is supposed to be the paragon of morality, asks people in the Old Testament to kill their children... Then, in the New Testament, his idea to save them is to KILL HIS OWN.

God did not give us a son to save us, he loaned us one.
He did not offer one, because nobody demanded it.

There was so far no problem that had been identified in the human species that demands a human sacrifice.
For what ill was the crucifixion a cure?

It was imposed upon us.
God basically said "I'm doing this, because the Prophets said I would. And I am going to have the boy tortured and killed in public to fulfill ancient screeds of bronze-age Judaism."

If they had known what was coming, the people might have replied. "But wait... I don't want it. I don't need it. I don't feel better for it. I feel very uneasy about it."

To which God said, "Well, that's a pity because, then, you're going to be cast into eternal fire."

... How is that developing compassion?
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Kelevra Black
haruki_jitsunin
Wait, I thought YAHWEH didn't develop compassion until the new testament. That kind of explains all his general lack of compassion in the old testament. I mean, to deny every non-jewish person into heaven before Jesus? That's like (in modern-biblical-temporal understanding) ~4000 years of people that all died and went straight to hell without any chance of personalized salvation. How is that at all a compassionate god? I guess having children really does change people...



Think about this though...

God, instead of just lifting the curse that he placed on every human that he would ever exist because Eve ate something she wasn't supposed to and shared it with Adam... God, instead, sends his "only son" to live a perfect life, be horrifically tortured and killed, and then rise from the dead and ascend into heaven so that a loophole can be created to protect us from something that GOD inflicted upon us in the first place.

Jesus Christ's death was a human sacrifice.

God, who is supposed to be the paragon of morality, asks people in the Old Testament to kill their children... Then, in the New Testament, his idea to save them is to KILL HIS OWN.

God did not give us a son to save us, he loaned us one.
He did not offer one, because nobody demanded it.

There was so far no problem that had been identified in the human species that demands a human sacrifice.
For what ill was the crucifixion a cure?

It was imposed upon us.
God basically said "I'm doing this, because the Prophets said I would. And I am going to have the boy tortured and killed in public to fulfill ancient screeds of bronze-age Judaism."

If they had known what was coming, the people might have replied. "But wait... I don't want it. I don't need it. I don't feel better for it. I feel very uneasy about it."

To which God said, "Well, that's a pity because, then, you're going to be cast into eternal fire."

... How is that developing compassion?


Yeah, I was Moreso playing on the popular perception of god than anything. I don't quite find the Yahweh of the old testament to be the same as the new one at all and by 'developing compassion', I Moreso was judging him by his policies or strictness thereof. And the offering of 'the sacrifice'. However, I definitely feel punishing an eternity of descendants for one action seems way too harsh for any god that claims anything close to benevolence.
Wow, people really haven't read Job.


The Lord doesn't revolve around you. It's not about you. It's about God. He doesn't have to explain anything. Label him as you are, but by the very breath in your body, you are here by his GRACE. By his eternal mercy. Believe it, or not. Take it, or leave it.

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