Welcome to Gaia! ::

Pseudo-Onkelos's avatar

Adored Admirer

IVovacane
They didn't die that day and God does not lie. What other kind of death is there? Spiritual, right?
Mankind was considered dead in sin and sin is what seperates us from God. We are dead in sin, correct me if I'm wrong. Adam and eve were seperated by God.

Well, I am christian. razz
Btw what do you believe in all this?


I told you why they didn't die that day. "In/On that day" means "when", it doesn't mean literally that they will die that day, just as I showed you Shimei was told he would die on the day he left his house in Jerusalem. Traveling from Jerusalem to Gath and then being brought back to King Solomon did not occur in one day, meaning that Shimei didn't die literally on the day he left.

I suppose you could say that his death had been brought into effect literally the day he left, so it is with the man and the woman. It has nothing to do with spiritual death, however. You are reading what's not there because you are reading with a Christian interpretation, which literally did not exist 4,000+ years ago.

I am a former Christian, now a non-religious pantheist.
Masrur Fanalis's avatar

Distinct Seeker

Pseudo-Onkelos
IVovacane
They didn't die that day and God does not lie. What other kind of death is there? Spiritual, right?
Mankind was considered dead in sin and sin is what seperates us from God. We are dead in sin, correct me if I'm wrong. Adam and eve were seperated by God.

Well, I am christian. razz
Btw what do you believe in all this?


I told you why they didn't die that day. "In/On that day" means "when", it doesn't mean literally that they will die that day, just as I showed you Shimei was told he would die on the day he left his house in Jerusalem. Traveling from Jerusalem to Gath and then being brought back to King Solomon did not occur in one day, meaning that Shimei didn't die literally on the day he left.

I suppose you could say that his death had been brought into effect literally the day he left, so it is with the man and the woman. It has nothing to do with spiritual death, however. You are reading what's not there because you are reading with a Christian interpretation, which literally did not exist 4,000+ years ago.

I am a former Christian, now a non-religious pantheist.

Did the bible say that the death began to effect when they left?
Also, you didn't answer the other question.
"Are we not dead in sin?"
Masrur Fanalis's avatar

Distinct Seeker

Kelevra Black
IVovacane
Kelevra Black
IVovacane
Kelevra Black

God said do not eat of the tree of life, Eve even said it. Btw, its an author who wrote Genesis, not authors.


None of that changes the fact that God lied, tried to withhold knowledge, and then punished the entire human race for something that Adam and Eve did before they had any knowledge of Good and Evil. They did not know they were sinning...
If God did not want him to eat of the tree, he should not have placed it there.

God set them up to fail by placing it there and not giving them the intellectual or moral foundation to make moral judgments based on what he had said, and the contradictory statement the serpent had said.

When they did fail, God should have taught them that what they did was wrong.
But that imposes the question, "Why was it wrong?"
At the end of the day, God lied, not the serpent.
God cursed the entire human race for something two people did, and he didn't get his way.
He threw a temper tantrum...

The serpent exposed his lie and told Eve the truth.

And God is supposed to be the good one?
If you believe that, you're brainwashed.

Lied about what? That they would die?
The payment of sin is death But Adam and Eve didn't die straightaway because of His Mercy. (He delayed the payment by killing a lamb as a symbol of what he would do later on) Then Jesus died on the cross to fulfill the payment. Also... http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/BQA/k/257/Did-God-Lie-Adam-Eve-Genesis-217.htm

He set them up huh? I can't tell you how many times I Used this illustration but here it goes...

Little johnny's father sets a cookie in the cookie jar. The father tells little johnny NOT to eat the cookie or else he would get a beating. The father knows little johnny loves cookies. Little johnny nods. Little johnny waits for his dad to leave the kitchen. When it looked clear, little johnny took the cookie and ate it. When the father came back, he saw guilt on little johnny's face. Also, he noticed the cookie was missing...

Now, who was at fault? The father or little johnny? And why? And what do you think the consequence was?

Also, this will basically sum it up...
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110812130607AAqIF8T
Although I. Don't agree about the part about christ's sacrafice not covering the sins of adam and eve.

Nope, I'm not brainwashed. Lol :l


Okay. I can see how your illustration is similar, but it isn't the same.
Let's fix it up so the comparison is a little closer.

Little Johnny's father sets a cookie in the cookie jar. The father tells little Johnny NOT to eat the cookie or else he'll DIE. The father knows little Johnny loves cookies. Little Johnny nods. Once Little Johnny's father leaves the kitchen, in comes little Johnny's mother, who then tells Little Johnny that he CAN have the cookie, and that he won't DIE if he eats it.
Little Johnny currently has no knowledge of good or evil, nor has he ever been in this situation before, thus he is not equipped in terms of intellect or experience to make a moral judgment about the contradiction between what his father and mother are saying about what will happen if he eats the cookie.
Johnny chooses to eat the cookie. When his father comes back, Johnny admits truthfully to eating the cookie, and then God doesn't kill Johnny, Johnny doesn't die at all...

Now, Little Johnny can only be held accountable to a certain degree, since he never had to deal with a situation like this before. The rational thing to do would be for Johnny's father to have a talk with his mother, who was the one that actually put little Johnny in this situation where he could have the cookie by telling him he would not die for eating it.
It is actually the mother who should be held responsible for this. But given that she actually told the truth, since Little Johnny went on to live another 900 years, it should be the Father who changes his ways, since he lied to the child to begin with.

But let us humor you and assume that the father is still in the right... Why not just educate Little Johnny on why what he did was wrong? Is that not the patient and loving thing to do?
Instead, Little Johnny's father not only punishes Little Johnny, but he punishes Little Johnny's kids, and their kids, and their kids, and their kids, and their kids, and their kids, and their kids... And so on.

God lied about what would happen if Adam and Eve ate the apple.
He said they would die the day they ate the apple.
They didn't...
God lied.

You seem to b brainwashed, believing that God is always good, even if we can't understand it. Which is just plain ridiculous and it a very obvious demonstration of something called "special pleading."

It's a lot like saying:
"God did a few good things, therefor anything he does is good, even the stuff we might see as bad. All those people he killed when he flooded the Earth, the child he slowly murdered over a period of seven days because David seduced Bathsheba, killing the first born of Egypt (from the Pharaoh's first born to the first born of the slave at the mill, despite the fact that it was the Pharaoh that said no), all of that must have been good too. We couldn't possibly understand God's mind, but we can definitely understand when he does good, but when he does something bad, we just don't understand."

If you believe that a person can not know God's mind, but believe they can recognize when he does good, but his acts of evil are simply misunderstood... You are brainwashed.

God is not good.
God lied to the first humans.
Punished children for the sins of others.
Killed almost all the human race...

I feel like you didn't read my essay at all.
I feel like you maybe read the first couple paragraphs and then skipped over the rest and jumped straight into your reply. I addressed all of this pretty thoroughly.

Again with the brainwashing stuff :l lol
Oh they did die. Spiritually.
"For the wages of sin is death"

Let me ask you this. Are you just?

That's the thing you feel like...

Okay, so you brought up the flood. Don't you want all the evil people in the world to go away? Or would you like them to stay and do their thing?
Pseudo-Onkelos's avatar

Adored Admirer

IVovacane
Did the bible say that the death began to effect when they left?
Also, you didn't answer the other question.
"Are we not dead in sin?"


No and no. Are there any other questions I wasn't aware of that I didn't answer?
JediDillon's avatar

Interesting Seeker

Pseudo-Onkelos
JediDillon
papa was a rolling stone
why did god kill the child instead of punishing david or bathsheba? why did he make the child suffer for days instead of mercifully ending his life? when pharaoh refused to let the hebrews go, why did god push innocent people and kill the first born children instead of directly punishing pharaoh himself? multiple times in the bible, god kills and tortures innocent people just to make a point. how is punishing innocent people just? how is he a just god? i'd prefer if theists answered this question because of course atheists will say "well of course he isn't just".


The reason that God killed the child was becasue that was David's punishment.


Why? David wasn't punished, the infant was.

JediDillon
Besides it is generally agreed across Christianity that children automaticly get into Heaven becasue they are below the age of accountability since they are afterall children.


So that makes it all right?

JediDillon
God did this to not only show David what he did, but to teach him from a moral standpoint how our actions affect other people.


And what did the infant learn for suffering for seven days before he died?

JediDillon
Think of it this way David chose to do something evil, and being a just God God justly punished David for his decision.


No, God did not do anything just. God isn't just.

JediDillon
Same thing thing with the plauges. God wanted to free the Israeli people from the captivity of Egypt becasue they were going to be the people that would introduce the true God to the world and also be the nation that would host the redeemer of the world Jesus Christ. God also gave Pharaoh plenty of oppurtunities to release the Israelites but he refused. So God had to act accordingly based on the decisions Pharaoh made. God does not kill or torture innocent people just to prove a point he punishes evil people to prove that what they do to others and themselves is wrong. God does not like doing these things in fact he even says that he does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. In fact when the Red Sea collapsed on the Egytian army in the Bible the Angels sang and God rebuked them saying "My children are drowning and you would sing?" showing that he has great compassion and love for everyone even those who hate him and are evil. That is why God is indeed a just and good God.


The same god who put the ancient Israelites in Egypt, the same god who hardened Pharaoh's heart. God does kill the innocent. God isn't just, God is just mighty. Might makes right, that is the god of Israel. Showing remorse does not make God just and good. God just had crocodile tears.



Quote:
Why? David wasn't punished, the infant was.


The infant was the son of David and David wanted the baby. By taking away the baby God was punishing David for having sex with Bathsheba who was already married to another person. The child they brought into the world was illegitimate and so to teach David the error of his ways God took the baby from David. Plus God has the power to take away life since he is God and the infant most likely made it to heaven so therefore David would of seen the child again. God merely took away the childs life on Earth its not like he wiped the infant from existence.


Quote:
No, God did not do anything just. God isn't just.


Well he spared Nineveh when they repented, he saved Judah from destruction by the Assyrians when King Hezekiahs reigned, He showed mercy to Israel when they came under invasion by the Egyptians, He saved the Jews from massacre by the Persians despite the fact that they had abandoned him, and he gave Jesus Christ to die for our sins. Thats pretty just to me.


Quote:
The same god who put the ancient Israelites in Egypt, the same god who hardened Pharaoh's heart. God does kill the innocent. God isn't just, God is just mighty. Might makes right, that is the god of Israel. Showing remorse does not make God just and good. God just had crocodile tears.


God put the Israelites in egypt to save them from drought, and yes God allowed Satan to harden Pharaoh's heart becasue he already had a hard heart, and no God does not kill the innocent. And no to God might does not make right Jesus even said that to God the heart of the law is mercy.
JediDillon's avatar

Interesting Seeker

Nityananda-rama dasa
JediDillon


But they do believe that the Angel Lucifer who is known in Christianity as Satan rebelled against God.


Verse please with supporting commentary....

JediDillon

It's in both the Old Testament and the Tanakah


stare

Those are the same thing....


Christian Doctrine supporting children automaticly making it into Heaven
Nityananda-rama dasa's avatar

Devout Fairy

JediDillon
Nityananda-rama dasa
JediDillon


But they do believe that the Angel Lucifer who is known in Christianity as Satan rebelled against God.


Verse please with supporting commentary....

JediDillon

It's in both the Old Testament and the Tanakah


stare

Those are the same thing....


Christian Doctrine supporting children automaticly making it into Heaven



That has nothing to do with Satan in Judaism
Pseudo-Onkelos's avatar

Adored Admirer

JediDillon
The infant was the son of David and David wanted the baby. By taking away the baby God was punishing David for having sex with Bathsheba who was already married to another person. The child they brought into the world was illegitimate and so to teach David the error of his ways God took the baby from David.


Yes, you told me this, so why is this just? Why didn't David suffer instead? I know, you're going to tell me David did because God made the infant ill for seven days, even after David repented and showed sorrow. This is not a just god. This is a punisher of the innocent and the same god who says that the son shall not die because of the father's sins. (Ezek. 18:14-18 )

JediDillon
Plus God has the power to take away life since he is God and the infant most likely made it to heaven so therefore David would of seen the child again. God merely took away the childs life on Earth its not like he wiped the infant from existence.


I don't care about Heaven and I'm sure David didn't, either. I doubt David even believed in such a concept, since there was only Sheol. The infant learned nothing. The infant suffered for the sin of another. Imagine you committed a crime and a judge condemned your son, no, had your son slayed before you. You certainly would not say that judge is just.

JediDillon
Well he spared Nineveh when they repented, he saved Judah from destruction by the Assyrians when King Hezekiahs reigned, He showed mercy to Israel when they came under invasion by the Egyptians, He saved the Jews from massacre by the Persians despite the fact that they had abandoned him, and he gave Jesus Christ to die for our sins. Thats pretty just to me.


That doesn't matter. Let's imagine Hitler (sorry, Hitler) had 6 million Jews killed (and he did) and then he went out of his way to give charity and treat others kindly and showed them mercy. Would you say Hitler was good and just?

JediDillon
God put the Israelites in egypt to save them from drought, and yes God allowed Satan to harden Pharaoh's heart becasue he already had a hard heart, and no God does not kill the innocent. And no to God might does not make right Jesus even said that to God the heart of the law is mercy.


So God put the Israelites in Egypt to have them become slaves, only to bring them out of Egypt. And for what? To show he is God. He is vain and proud. This is an example of might is right. And no, Pharaoh's heart was not hardened by Satan because Satan is a Christian concept. The ancient Israelites knew nothing of Satan. Don't Christianize the Tanakh.
JediDillon's avatar

Interesting Seeker

Nityananda-rama dasa
JediDillon
Nityananda-rama dasa
JediDillon


But they do believe that the Angel Lucifer who is known in Christianity as Satan rebelled against God.


Verse please with supporting commentary....

JediDillon

It's in both the Old Testament and the Tanakah


stare

Those are the same thing....


Christian Doctrine supporting children automaticly making it into Heaven



That has nothing to do with Satan in Judaism


Sorry I thought thought you asked a different question, here you go:

Biblical proof of Satan
JediDillon's avatar

Interesting Seeker

Pseudo-Onkelos
JediDillon
The infant was the son of David and David wanted the baby. By taking away the baby God was punishing David for having sex with Bathsheba who was already married to another person. The child they brought into the world was illegitimate and so to teach David the error of his ways God took the baby from David.


Yes, you told me this, so why is this just? Why didn't David suffer instead? I know, you're going to tell me David did because God made the infant ill for seven days, even after David repented and showed sorrow. This is not a just god. This is a punisher of the innocent and the same god who says that the son shall not die because of the father's sins. (Ezek. 18:14-18 )

JediDillon
Plus God has the power to take away life since he is God and the infant most likely made it to heaven so therefore David would of seen the child again. God merely took away the childs life on Earth its not like he wiped the infant from existence.


I don't care about Heaven and I'm sure David didn't, either. I doubt David even believed in such a concept, since there was only Sheol. The infant learned nothing. The infant suffered for the sin of another. Imagine you committed a crime and a judge condemned your son, no, had your son slayed before you. You certainly would not say that judge is just.

JediDillon
Well he spared Nineveh when they repented, he saved Judah from destruction by the Assyrians when King Hezekiahs reigned, He showed mercy to Israel when they came under invasion by the Egyptians, He saved the Jews from massacre by the Persians despite the fact that they had abandoned him, and he gave Jesus Christ to die for our sins. Thats pretty just to me.


That doesn't matter. Let's imagine Hitler (sorry, Hitler) had 6 million Jews killed (and he did) and then he went out of his way to give charity and treat others kindly and showed them mercy. Would you say Hitler was good and just?

JediDillon
God put the Israelites in egypt to save them from drought, and yes God allowed Satan to harden Pharaoh's heart becasue he already had a hard heart, and no God does not kill the innocent. And no to God might does not make right Jesus even said that to God the heart of the law is mercy.


So God put the Israelites in Egypt to have them become slaves, only to bring them out of Egypt. And for what? To show he is God. He is vain and proud. This is an example of might is right. And no, Pharaoh's heart was not hardened by Satan because Satan is a Christian concept. The ancient Israelites knew nothing of Satan. Don't Christianize the Tanakh.


Quote:

I don't care about Heaven and I'm sure David didn't, either. I doubt David even believed in such a concept, since there was only Sheol. The infant learned nothing. The infant suffered for the sin of another. Imagine you committed a crime and a judge condemned your son, no, had your son slayed before you. You certainly would not say that judge is just.


Sheol though was a form of the afterlife. If David did believe in Sheol as you said then David would have believed that he would of seen the child again in Sheol. Also after Jesus died it was written in the Book of Peter that Jesus descended into Sheol and freed several of its inhabitants which could have been King David and his son. Also that's sad you don't care about heaven you should want to go there someday it's a great place.


Quote:
That doesn't matter. Let's imagine Hitler (sorry, Hitler) had 6 million Jews killed (and he did) and then he went out of his way to give charity and treat others kindly and showed them mercy. Would you say Hitler was good and just?


Hitler is irrelevent, Hitler killed the Jews simply becasue he hated them for several reasons which historians constantly speculate on, God only killed or punished the dead.
Quote:


So God put the Israelites in Egypt to have them become slaves, only to bring them out of Egypt. And for what? To show he is God. He is vain and proud. This is an example of might is right. And no, Pharaoh's heart was not hardened by Satan because Satan is a Christian concept. The ancient Israelites knew nothing of Satan. Don't Christianize the Tanakh


No, he brought them out of Egypt becasue he made an agreement with Abraham that he would make his seed(Israel) a great nation. God was merely fulfilling his promise. Also God can't be vain or arrogant becasue that goes completely against his nature. Don't Christianize the Tanakh? You realize that it was a group of Jews who created Christianity right?
Pseudo-Onkelos's avatar

Adored Admirer

JediDillon
Sheol though was a form of the afterlife. If David did believe in Sheol as you said then David would have believed that he would of seen the child again in Sheol. Also after Jesus died it was written in the Book of Peter that Jesus descended into Sheol and freed several of its inhabitants which could have been King David and his son. Also that's sad you don't care about heaven you should want to go there someday it's a great place.


Sheol simply means "grave". Later connotations occur because of Hellenization. Also, there is no evidence of a place called Heaven and I don't wish for there to be such a place when there aren't any grounds for its existence in the first place.

JediDillon
Hitler is irrelevent, Hitler killed the Jews simply becasue he hated them for several reasons which historians constantly speculate on, God only killed or punished the dead.


I could have used someone else, but you didn't answer the question. God has killed the living numerous times.

JediDillon
No, he brought them out of Egypt becasue he made an agreement with Abraham that he would make his seed(Israel) a great nation. God was merely fulfilling his promise. Also God can't be vain or arrogant becasue that goes completely against his nature. Don't Christianize the Tanakh? You realize that it was a group of Jews who created Christianity right?


Surely, God in his omnipotence, could have done this a different way, a moral way. He is God, after all, isn't he? If I was God, I would have fulfilled my promise by making Israel a great nation without harming a single person. To me, I show better judgment than God. I don't see how being vain or proud goes against God's nature when God has to destroy lives and livestock to prove a point.

Yes, Jews created Christianity. These Jews were Hellenized.
Nityananda-rama dasa's avatar

Devout Fairy

JediDillon


Sorry I thought thought you asked a different question, here you go:

Biblical proof of Satan


That is Christian, not Jewish....
Kelevra Black's avatar

Dangerous Genius

IVovacane

Again with the brainwashing stuff :l lol
Oh they did die. Spiritually.
"For the wages of sin is death"

Let me ask you this. Are you just?

That's the thing you feel like...

Okay, so you brought up the flood. Don't you want all the evil people in the world to go away? Or would you like them to stay and do their thing?


Again, read my essay.
You say they died spiritually, but that is a modification of what was stated in the Bible.
God did not tell them they would die a spiritual death. He just said they would die they ate of the tree.
That is the lie.

Am I just?
Yes, as a matter of fact I am.
But that is simply my opinion of myself. But my opinion has a foundation...
My morality does not come from a book. It comes from my experience.
I treat others nicely because I recognize that I am accountable for the 6 Billion other people on this planet, and my actions affect the people around me. So I try my very hardest not to do anything that might harm another person. Sometimes I falter, I slip up, and people get hurt because of my mistakes.
But when that happens, I apologize. Not to God, but to the people that I actually wronged.
When I hurt someone, I don't ask God for forgiveness so that I can still get my mansion in the sky. I apologize to the person I hurt, and hope that they can forgive me. I don't just assume that all is well and good because Jesus died on the cross so that my sins are automatically forgiven.

My opinion is based on these experiences, and not just because "it says so in this book."

IVovacane

Okay, so you brought up the flood. Don't you want all the evil people in the world to go away? Or would you like them to stay and do their thing?


This actually makes me sick. What you said is so thoroughly disgusting and repulsive...
I would like evildoers to be punished for their evil deeds. I would like them to atone for the wrongs they have committed. If they are constant perpetrators of violent and dangerous crimes, I even believe in the death penalty, given that they have proven themselves to be a liability and a potential risk to the safety of the people around them...

... But I do NOT want the evildoers to be killed off if it means wiping out all the good people with them. If there were a serial killer in your city, would you condone the government dropping a nuke on your city, killing off EVERYONE, the good people included?
And don't you dare say there were no good people left when God flooded the Earth.
Of all the people left in the world, some were children. Some were pregnant women who could have given birth to a new generation of kind, loving, wonderful people.
If God was good, he would not have killed everyone... He would have stepped forward and found a way to teach people to be better.
Masrur Fanalis's avatar

Distinct Seeker

Kelevra Black
IVovacane

Again with the brainwashing stuff :l lol
Oh they did die. Spiritually.
"For the wages of sin is death"

Let me ask you this. Are you just?

That's the thing you feel like...

Okay, so you brought up the flood. Don't you want all the evil people in the world to go away? Or would you like them to stay and do their thing?


Again, read my essay.
You say they died spiritually, but that is a modification of what was stated in the Bible.
God did not tell them they would die a spiritual death. He just said they would die they ate of the tree.
That is the lie.

Am I just?
Yes, as a matter of fact I am.
But that is simply my opinion of myself. But my opinion has a foundation...
My morality does not come from a book. It comes from my experience.
I treat others nicely because I recognize that I am accountable for the 6 Billion other people on this planet, and my actions affect the people around me. So I try my very hardest not to do anything that might harm another person. Sometimes I falter, I slip up, and people get hurt because of my mistakes.
But when that happens, I apologize. Not to God, but to the people that I actually wronged.
When I hurt someone, I don't ask God for forgiveness so that I can still get my mansion in the sky. I apologize to the person I hurt, and hope that they can forgive me. I don't just assume that all is well and good because Jesus died on the cross so that my sins are automatically forgiven.

My opinion is based on these experiences, and not just because "it says so in this book."

IVovacane

Okay, so you brought up the flood. Don't you want all the evil people in the world to go away? Or would you like them to stay and do their thing?


This actually makes me sick. What you said is so thoroughly disgusting and repulsive...
I would like evildoers to be punished for their evil deeds. I would like them to atone for the wrongs they have committed. If they are constant perpetrators of violent and dangerous crimes, I even believe in the death penalty, given that they have proven themselves to be a liability and a potential risk to the safety of the people around them...

... But I do NOT want the evildoers to be killed off if it means wiping out all the good people with them. If there were a serial killer in your city, would you condone the government dropping a nuke on your city, killing off EVERYONE, the good people included?
And don't you dare say there were no good people left when God flooded the Earth.
Of all the people left in the world, some were children. Some were pregnant women who could have given birth to a new generation of kind, loving, wonderful people.
If God was good, he would not have killed everyone... He would have stepped forward and found a way to teach people to be better.

Lol. No at the nuke part. Just give the serial killer the death penalty razz i
What you forget to point out is that the sins of the parents are inherited by the children. They would only follow their parent's footsteps. Just like they followed their parent's footsteps, and so on, and so on, and so on again...

“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” (Genesis 6:5, emphasis added)

Mankind’s depravity had reached a level that evil entirely permeated every part of his being. His wickedness was great- that is, his actions were wicked. Every imagination was evil - his mind was wholly corrupted. Every thought of his heart – his will, his desires, his emotions, his passions, had all become so sin stained that there remained nothing within them that was not evil. These people upon whom God poured out the Flood were not merely dabbling in sin here and there, everything that they were doing was an horrific abomination!

“The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.” (Genesis 6:11-13, emphasis added)

Lest we have any doubts, let me say that the Earth was corrupted and filled with violence! There is a linguistic device employed in Hebrew that we see throughout the Old Testament, and that is emphasis through repetition. Whenever a word or phrased is used repetitively, it indicates a stronger or greater degree of the expression. The evil depths that the people who lived before the Flood had sunk to is strongly emphasized and amplified here in verses 5, and 11-13.

In considering why God sent the Flood, we must first realize that those living upon the Earth were completely and utterly wicked beyond the hope of changing. There were no innocent bystanders caught up in the Flood; everyone was guilty of the most deplorable sinfulness. The rebellion against God that we saw taking root in Cain and his descendants had now reached a fruition that God could not overlook.

All you do is put God's means of just with human's means with just. To be specific, your view of what's just and not. A higher power down graded into a mortal view.

You claimed there was a chance of the new generation becoming good and better than the others. You are so greatly mistaken. If they were, God wouldn't have sent the flood because he is omniscent and omnipresent, all knowing and present everywhere . He knew they would never change. BECAUSE HE IS ALL KNOWING AND PRESENT EVERYWHERE.

You said a new generation of good ect ect. Gues where that generation was started from. Noah and his family.
Kelevra Black's avatar

Dangerous Genius

IVovacane
Kelevra Black
IVovacane

Again with the brainwashing stuff :l lol
Oh they did die. Spiritually.
"For the wages of sin is death"

Let me ask you this. Are you just?

That's the thing you feel like...

Okay, so you brought up the flood. Don't you want all the evil people in the world to go away? Or would you like them to stay and do their thing?


Again, read my essay.
You say they died spiritually, but that is a modification of what was stated in the Bible.
God did not tell them they would die a spiritual death. He just said they would die they ate of the tree.
That is the lie.

Am I just?
Yes, as a matter of fact I am.
But that is simply my opinion of myself. But my opinion has a foundation...
My morality does not come from a book. It comes from my experience.
I treat others nicely because I recognize that I am accountable for the 6 Billion other people on this planet, and my actions affect the people around me. So I try my very hardest not to do anything that might harm another person. Sometimes I falter, I slip up, and people get hurt because of my mistakes.
But when that happens, I apologize. Not to God, but to the people that I actually wronged.
When I hurt someone, I don't ask God for forgiveness so that I can still get my mansion in the sky. I apologize to the person I hurt, and hope that they can forgive me. I don't just assume that all is well and good because Jesus died on the cross so that my sins are automatically forgiven.

My opinion is based on these experiences, and not just because "it says so in this book."

IVovacane

Okay, so you brought up the flood. Don't you want all the evil people in the world to go away? Or would you like them to stay and do their thing?


This actually makes me sick. What you said is so thoroughly disgusting and repulsive...
I would like evildoers to be punished for their evil deeds. I would like them to atone for the wrongs they have committed. If they are constant perpetrators of violent and dangerous crimes, I even believe in the death penalty, given that they have proven themselves to be a liability and a potential risk to the safety of the people around them...

... But I do NOT want the evildoers to be killed off if it means wiping out all the good people with them. If there were a serial killer in your city, would you condone the government dropping a nuke on your city, killing off EVERYONE, the good people included?
And don't you dare say there were no good people left when God flooded the Earth.
Of all the people left in the world, some were children. Some were pregnant women who could have given birth to a new generation of kind, loving, wonderful people.
If God was good, he would not have killed everyone... He would have stepped forward and found a way to teach people to be better.

Lol. No at the nuke part. Just give the serial killer the death penalty razz i
What you forget to point out is that the sins of the parents are inherited by the children. They would only follow their parent's footsteps. Just like they followed their parent's footsteps, and so on, and so on, and so on again...

“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” (Genesis 6:5, emphasis added)

Mankind’s depravity had reached a level that evil entirely permeated every part of his being. His wickedness was great- that is, his actions were wicked. Every imagination was evil - his mind was wholly corrupted. Every thought of his heart – his will, his desires, his emotions, his passions, had all become so sin stained that there remained nothing within them that was not evil. These people upon whom God poured out the Flood were not merely dabbling in sin here and there, everything that they were doing was an horrific abomination!

“The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.” (Genesis 6:11-13, emphasis added)

Lest we have any doubts, let me say that the Earth was corrupted and filled with violence! There is a linguistic device employed in Hebrew that we see throughout the Old Testament, and that is emphasis through repetition. Whenever a word or phrased is used repetitively, it indicates a stronger or greater degree of the expression. The evil depths that the people who lived before the Flood had sunk to is strongly emphasized and amplified here in verses 5, and 11-13.

In considering why God sent the Flood, we must first realize that those living upon the Earth were completely and utterly wicked beyond the hope of changing. There were no innocent bystanders caught up in the Flood; everyone was guilty of the most deplorable sinfulness. The rebellion against God that we saw taking root in Cain and his descendants had now reached a fruition that God could not overlook.

All you do is put God's means of just with human's means with just. To be specific, your view of what's just and not. A higher power down graded into a mortal view.

You claimed there was a chance of the new generation becoming good and better than the others. You are so greatly mistaken. If they were, God wouldn't have sent the flood because he is omniscent and omnipresent, all knowing and present everywhere . He knew they would never change. BECAUSE HE IS ALL KNOWING AND PRESENT EVERYWHERE.

You said a new generation of good ect ect. Gues where that generation was started from. Noah and his family.


What could they have done to deserve complete annihilation?
What could have possibly been so bad?
It never says, because despite an emphasis tool employed by the Hebrew language, the main device employed by the Bible is vagueness.

But let me just focus on the most important part of your reply. The part that is a complete contradiction.

You claimed there was a chance of the new generation becoming good and better than the others. You are so greatly mistaken. If they were, God wouldn't have sent the flood because he is omniscent and omnipresent, all knowing and present everywhere . He knew they would never change. BECAUSE HE IS ALL KNOWING AND PRESENT EVERYWHERE.

You said a new generation of good ect ect. Gues where that generation was started from. Noah and his family.


So God, the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being, who was able to harden Pharaoh's heart (essentially mind control if you look at it in context), would not have been able to teach the new generation to be better?

Do you really believe that the sins of the parents are inherited by the child?
If your father was a serial killer, would it be just and fair for the people to punish you for what he did?
My biological father was in a White Supremist gang. He even killed a few people, which he is currently being punished for in a jail in North Carolina...
However, I'm not even close to racist. I've never killed anyone.
I am kind to my fellow man, and I am a decent human being. I am compassionate and generous, and I work hard to provide for myself.

Am I guilty of the murders he committed?
Should I be punished for those as well?
Did I follow in my father's footsteps?

At the time that my father and my mother were together, my mother was addicted to meth.
However, I never did drugs. Even at a young age, I knew something was very wrong, and it was I who told my daycare teacher and had the police called to my house, which ultimately resulted in my mother going into rehab, getting clean, and going on to live a good life.

Did I follow in my parents footsteps?
I witnessed racism and drug abuse every night, but I didn't go down that path. In fact, I consciously found a way to stop it.

Are their sins my own?
Am I guilty of the atrocities they committed?

Any system that would punish me for the decisions an adult would make is immoral.

All you do is put God's means of just with human's means with just. To be specific, your view of what's just and not. A higher power down graded into a mortal view.


And why shouldn't I judge God by my mortal view?
You do.
The only difference is that you judge him as good, because you choose to ignore the bad or write it off as something we just don't understand.

If you claim we can not possibly understand God's actions, than we have to reconcile the fact that we also cannot know if God's actions are good.

But instead, you seems to believe that although we can not understand God's actions, we can clearly see when he does something good... And anything he does that seems bad is just beyond our understanding.
Again... That is called being brainwashed. If you actually believe that, you are brainwashed.
If you don't believe that, than what you are doing is purposely ignoring God's evil deeds so that his image in your mind is not tainted, and thus you are using "special pleading."

But if you take the good with the bad, and you judge both, than you are doing things right.
Saying we shouldn't even attempt to judge God because he is a higher power and we are not is basically saying, "He's stronger than us, so we have to let him get away with it."
You judge him good out of fear, because you are afraid of what he will do to you if you stand up to him... That's a little bit sad, and I feel sorry for you.

Quick Reply

Submit
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get Items
Get Gaia Cash
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games