What has God done for you...

[Mauled by angry kittens]

Zika Justice

To Math145 Kane:
Yes, I do ^_^

Mauled by angry kittens:
Suppose I did stop myself from smoking especially under peer pressure BUT I'll need to explain my situation while I was drowning.
I was at the beach with my parents and like out of nowhere (both times) I was swept away by a RIP wave. I kept being pushed under by the waves (yadda yadda) but SOMEHOW I, a 9 year old girl, made my way out of the rip current which a full grown man would have trouble getting himself out of and as soon as I got back to the beach, I was told by mum (who was freaked out lol) that people were trying to reach me but I was safe by the time they got there, this happened both times.
I know for a fact that I couldn't have gotten out of there by myself and I also remember clearly that no one got the chance to help me. I'm not really that comfortable with sharing personal stories but in the case of an argument like this, it's a small price to pay.
What happened to me was a miracle and no one can make me think otherwise.

I have heard a few amazing stories such as yours from a number of people. My favorite is from my great grandmother who was, and has always been, a devout Christian. One day when going down into the cellar, she lost her balance on the long, steep flight of stairs. She fell to the concrete floor bellow and found herself on her back with many of the bones in her body broken. Now she lived at least a mile from any human contact and her phone was at the top of the stairs she had fallen down. She lay there for hours, knowing full well that if she didn't get help soon, she would die. She looked to god and said to herself "if you have anything more for me to do, this is the time to do it." After waiting about an hour more, she found no answer. All she could see were her children and all the people at her school who needed her. It was at that point that she decided that she wouldn't die there and got up. She walked up the stairs and to the telephone to call the local hospital and did so purely by forcing her own body. When the medics had gotten there, they found that most of her bones had been set, but nonetheless, she should not have been able to walk. She always said that she discovered that day that if you don't carry out God's work on your own power and only relied on him to get you through the day, you were committing the worst of Sloth.

[froggymama89]

Mauled by angry kittens

froggymama89

Mauled by angry kittens

froggymama89

Mauled by angry kittens

The way I see it, "god" is the energy of life that courses through living beings that only living beings can detect (the technical term for someone with my beliefs is Raidoka or, "one who follows the path of energy" ). So by that effect, the thing "god" did for me was exist so that living things exist. I don't believe in a higher being, only an interdependant power. A person ruling our Universe would just be too... problematic and egotistical. I believe that living things are the Universe's conscience. When humans went into space and looked at Earth, totally breathless, it was pretty much the Earth looking at itself and going "damn I look good."

As for the stories about incredible things happening to people who are in trouble, a manga plotline comes to mind. In Katekyo Hitman Reborn, they speak of a person's ultimate will as what gives them power. Now KHR isn't exactly the most philosophical manga in the world but it brings up a good point. Is it possible that these feats come simply from a person's will to accomplish the task at hand (in most of these cases, the task at hand is not dying) instead of a deity looking at the person and saying to themselves, "I'd rather save this person than one of the millions of other people who are likely to suffer worse fates"? It could just be like the adrenaline rush that, in the classic example, gives mothers the power to roll trees off of their kids.

Merely a speculation.

I would like to answer your question but I want to make clear I will not argue religion with you. It is clear that you are strong in your faith and mine is unbreakable.

When my son was 2 months and rolled over in the crib and stopped breathing. Babies that young don't wake up when they stop breathing they just die peacefully in their sleep. However he woke up and cried. I don't even remember getting up just hearing the scariest cry ever and then holding my coughing child. The only way I can explain is God woke him up as he was already sleeping through the night and did not want to be fed or changed (the only reasons he cries other than being sleepy and he was asleep).
When I was in 8th grade I was about to kill myself and called out to the Christian God whom I did not believe in at the time for any other way out of my pain. He wrapped his arms around me and told me that he had great things in store for me. Now I'm sure your faith would say that I created that moment but I don't honestly think I have the strength do that. And unless I really did hear the voice of God then I'm crazy because I know I heard it that day.
I will explain that in my faith system we believe that because God created space and time and therefore exists outside of it. We believe that he is all powerful and can be in all places at all times doing all things. It is a hard concept to grasp but if you approach with the idea that he exists outside of space and time it makes more sense. So the quote "I'd rather save this person than one of the millions of others who are likely to suffer a worse fate" means nothing to me. Also I believe that God is all knowing and therefore knows all the possible outcomes of all our choices and knows what is going to happen to everyone and I guess knows their "fates". In my belief system everyone has the same fate in the end and it is hell and his son died to save us all from that fate just so long as we believe in our hearts.
I'm not saying I'm right only stating what I believe.

It appears we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I don't think either of us are going to give in. However, I believe that if a conscious god were to make a baby cry instead of sleeping peacefully and dying, then that god would have the compassion to give people who are starving or who are innocent victims of a war, the little nudge of luck they would need to get away. As I see that this has not been done, I think that either, A) there is a conscious god that has decided to let the world be and let us humans make our own choices and live our own lives without intervention, B) there is a conscious god who is selective in who it saves, in which case I would rather suffer whatever eternal consequences that god has for me than follow under it, or C) there is an unconscious higher power.
I think you aren't giving yourself enough credit for the suicide thing. I won't argue about this because I know that we will never reach a conclusion, but do you not wonder if possibly the voice you heard was one of your own, telling you that you have much more to live for? Just a thought. It's again with the ultimate will of the broken bringing them to act as they never could before.

That's a new one and I say its far better than the person who said it was aliens. I highly doubt I at the age of 13 would be able to have a masculine, fatherly voice, one full of love and power. And at the time I had nothing to live for. Under the philosophy of my religion all have sinned (chosen to do wrong) and no sin is worse than another it all bad in God's eyes. He knows those people are hurting but they sin too. Also its the churches responsibility to care for the starving, sick, orphaned, homeless, and imprisoned. Because of the fall the world is not perfect and if suddenly war ended and it won't until you eliminate the selfish nature of man which can't be done without God or World hunger miraculously ended there would be no reason for faith. God wants us to love him out of our own will and that's what faith is all about. It's loving and trusting in him even though we don't know for a fact without a shadow of a doubt he is real. I doubt sometimes and then I remind myself it doesn't matter for me at least. My faith in God gives me a higher purpose I didn't have on my own. And it was through my faith that I was able to clean up and stay clean and get a college education so my son could have a future. I know these are all things I could do on my own but my faith and having a doctrine to follow, a higher being to answer to keeps me on the straight and narrow. Am I making any sense?

You make complete sense. However, when I talk about your "voice", I mean the voices of your personalities. There's always a reason for a person's life and something inside everybody always knows that. In the words of Hiko Seijuro, "the will to live is the strongest power in the body of a person." I suppose it is entirely possible that it was a god, or the God depending, but I still think that it isn't just God's will that drives the work of good. For instance, you said that it is the job of the church to take in the unfortunate and needy. However, I have known equally hospitable and charitable organizations run by complete atheists. It is the willpower of those who wish to do good things that makes good things happen, as far as I see it. If the people had no wish to do good, then nothing God could do would create a society that does good. The will may be in a god/ God, but the power and the conscience is in the people.

I meant that it is the duty of the church and not God's to take care of those here on earth. And yes there are non-Christian organizations that do good. However I am not going argue with you because it will just go on and on. and the voices of your personalties sounds will to be honest kinda nutty like someone with MPD. I have always had one personality and when it comes to fight or flight I choose flight. I had nothing to live for. My family clearly didn't love me, in my perception, because they never asked about the bruises and didn't listen when I had a bad day and the authority at school didn't care because they saw it and did nothing. And I had no friends. I hated my life and wanted my pain and suffering to end. Now how would I know then that I had a greater purpose? I didn't know what to do with my life nor did I care. It wasn't until recently that I found purpose in caring for special needs orphans. Also I want to make it clear that I heard his voice, not in my head or heart but physically heard it. I also felt his arms wrap around but I suppose your theology would say I created that too.

[Drow_Elven_Warrior]

He gave me a soul, and that is something I can't do for myself.

[Mauled by angry kittens]

froggymama89

Mauled by angry kittens

froggymama89

Mauled by angry kittens

froggymama89

Mauled by angry kittens

The way I see it, "god" is the energy of life that courses through living beings that only living beings can detect (the technical term for someone with my beliefs is Raidoka or, "one who follows the path of energy" ). So by that effect, the thing "god" did for me was exist so that living things exist. I don't believe in a higher being, only an interdependant power. A person ruling our Universe would just be too... problematic and egotistical. I believe that living things are the Universe's conscience. When humans went into space and looked at Earth, totally breathless, it was pretty much the Earth looking at itself and going "damn I look good."

As for the stories about incredible things happening to people who are in trouble, a manga plotline comes to mind. In Katekyo Hitman Reborn, they speak of a person's ultimate will as what gives them power. Now KHR isn't exactly the most philosophical manga in the world but it brings up a good point. Is it possible that these feats come simply from a person's will to accomplish the task at hand (in most of these cases, the task at hand is not dying) instead of a deity looking at the person and saying to themselves, "I'd rather save this person than one of the millions of other people who are likely to suffer worse fates"? It could just be like the adrenaline rush that, in the classic example, gives mothers the power to roll trees off of their kids.

Merely a speculation.

I would like to answer your question but I want to make clear I will not argue religion with you. It is clear that you are strong in your faith and mine is unbreakable.

When my son was 2 months and rolled over in the crib and stopped breathing. Babies that young don't wake up when they stop breathing they just die peacefully in their sleep. However he woke up and cried. I don't even remember getting up just hearing the scariest cry ever and then holding my coughing child. The only way I can explain is God woke him up as he was already sleeping through the night and did not want to be fed or changed (the only reasons he cries other than being sleepy and he was asleep).
When I was in 8th grade I was about to kill myself and called out to the Christian God whom I did not believe in at the time for any other way out of my pain. He wrapped his arms around me and told me that he had great things in store for me. Now I'm sure your faith would say that I created that moment but I don't honestly think I have the strength do that. And unless I really did hear the voice of God then I'm crazy because I know I heard it that day.
I will explain that in my faith system we believe that because God created space and time and therefore exists outside of it. We believe that he is all powerful and can be in all places at all times doing all things. It is a hard concept to grasp but if you approach with the idea that he exists outside of space and time it makes more sense. So the quote "I'd rather save this person than one of the millions of others who are likely to suffer a worse fate" means nothing to me. Also I believe that God is all knowing and therefore knows all the possible outcomes of all our choices and knows what is going to happen to everyone and I guess knows their "fates". In my belief system everyone has the same fate in the end and it is hell and his son died to save us all from that fate just so long as we believe in our hearts.
I'm not saying I'm right only stating what I believe.

It appears we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I don't think either of us are going to give in. However, I believe that if a conscious god were to make a baby cry instead of sleeping peacefully and dying, then that god would have the compassion to give people who are starving or who are innocent victims of a war, the little nudge of luck they would need to get away. As I see that this has not been done, I think that either, A) there is a conscious god that has decided to let the world be and let us humans make our own choices and live our own lives without intervention, B) there is a conscious god who is selective in who it saves, in which case I would rather suffer whatever eternal consequences that god has for me than follow under it, or C) there is an unconscious higher power.
I think you aren't giving yourself enough credit for the suicide thing. I won't argue about this because I know that we will never reach a conclusion, but do you not wonder if possibly the voice you heard was one of your own, telling you that you have much more to live for? Just a thought. It's again with the ultimate will of the broken bringing them to act as they never could before.

That's a new one and I say its far better than the person who said it was aliens. I highly doubt I at the age of 13 would be able to have a masculine, fatherly voice, one full of love and power. And at the time I had nothing to live for. Under the philosophy of my religion all have sinned (chosen to do wrong) and no sin is worse than another it all bad in God's eyes. He knows those people are hurting but they sin too. Also its the churches responsibility to care for the starving, sick, orphaned, homeless, and imprisoned. Because of the fall the world is not perfect and if suddenly war ended and it won't until you eliminate the selfish nature of man which can't be done without God or World hunger miraculously ended there would be no reason for faith. God wants us to love him out of our own will and that's what faith is all about. It's loving and trusting in him even though we don't know for a fact without a shadow of a doubt he is real. I doubt sometimes and then I remind myself it doesn't matter for me at least. My faith in God gives me a higher purpose I didn't have on my own. And it was through my faith that I was able to clean up and stay clean and get a college education so my son could have a future. I know these are all things I could do on my own but my faith and having a doctrine to follow, a higher being to answer to keeps me on the straight and narrow. Am I making any sense?

You make complete sense. However, when I talk about your "voice", I mean the voices of your personalities. There's always a reason for a person's life and something inside everybody always knows that. In the words of Hiko Seijuro, "the will to live is the strongest power in the body of a person." I suppose it is entirely possible that it was a god, or the God depending, but I still think that it isn't just God's will that drives the work of good. For instance, you said that it is the job of the church to take in the unfortunate and needy. However, I have known equally hospitable and charitable organizations run by complete atheists. It is the willpower of those who wish to do good things that makes good things happen, as far as I see it. If the people had no wish to do good, then nothing God could do would create a society that does good. The will may be in a god/ God, but the power and the conscience is in the people.

I meant that it is the duty of the church and not God's to take care of those here on earth. And yes there are non-Christian organizations that do good. However I am not going argue with you because it will just go on and on. and the voices of your personalties sounds will to be honest kinda nutty like someone with MPD. I have always had one personality and when it comes to fight or flight I choose flight. I had nothing to live for. My family clearly didn't love me, in my perception, because they never asked about the bruises and didn't listen when I had a bad day and the authority at school didn't care because they saw it and did nothing. And I had no friends. I hated my life and wanted my pain and suffering to end. Now how would I know then that I had a greater purpose? I didn't know what to do with my life nor did I care. It wasn't until recently that I found purpose in caring for special needs orphans. Also I want to make it clear that I heard his voice, not in my head or heart but physically heard it. I also felt his arms wrap around but I suppose your theology would say I created that too.

In technical terms, I have no theology. I'm agnostic, meaning I acknowledge that I cannot prove or disprove a higher power. I cannot tell you that you made that up. I just think it's possible that something in you wanted to live. It's something that comes up when every other emotion fails a person. Also, every person has MPD. Most have one personality that completely dominates the other but we all have different voices in our minds. Anyway, as you've said, we aren't going to get anywhere with this.

[Zika Justice]

Drow_Elven_Warrior

He gave me a soul, and that is something I can't do for myself.

Good answer biggrin

[Mauled by angry kittens]

Zika Justice

Drow_Elven_Warrior

He gave me a soul, and that is something I can't do for myself.

Good answer biggrin

I can't argue with that, unfortunately.

[Zika Justice]

Mauled by angry kittens

Zika Justice

To Math145 Kane:
Yes, I do ^_^

Mauled by angry kittens:
Suppose I did stop myself from smoking especially under peer pressure BUT I'll need to explain my situation while I was drowning.
I was at the beach with my parents and like out of nowhere (both times) I was swept away by a RIP wave. I kept being pushed under by the waves (yadda yadda) but SOMEHOW I, a 9 year old girl, made my way out of the rip current which a full grown man would have trouble getting himself out of and as soon as I got back to the beach, I was told by mum (who was freaked out lol) that people were trying to reach me but I was safe by the time they got there, this happened both times.
I know for a fact that I couldn't have gotten out of there by myself and I also remember clearly that no one got the chance to help me. I'm not really that comfortable with sharing personal stories but in the case of an argument like this, it's a small price to pay.
What happened to me was a miracle and no one can make me think otherwise.

I have heard a few amazing stories such as yours from a number of people. My favorite is from my great grandmother who was, and has always been, a devout Christian. One day when going down into the cellar, she lost her balance on the long, steep flight of stairs. She fell to the concrete floor bellow and found herself on her back with many of the bones in her body broken. Now she lived at least a mile from any human contact and her phone was at the top of the stairs she had fallen down. She lay there for hours, knowing full well that if she didn't get help soon, she would die. She looked to god and said to herself "if you have anything more for me to do, this is the time to do it." After waiting about an hour more, she found no answer. All she could see were her children and all the people at her school who needed her. It was at that point that she decided that she wouldn't die there and got up. She walked up the stairs and to the telephone to call the local hospital and did so purely by forcing her own body. When the medics had gotten there, they found that most of her bones had been set, but nonetheless, she should not have been able to walk. She always said that she discovered that day that if you don't carry out God's work on your own power and only relied on him to get you through the day, you were committing the worst of Sloth.

That's quite a story and I get where you're coming from now.
I've heard of a lot of stories like that where people just SAID that they weren't going to die there and then and the words they spoke prevented it from happening.
My mum had something like that, she was driving her boyfriends car which got caught on a wet, muddy road and it started sliding downhill towards a ledge. She tried to apply the breaks but it just kept sliding, she was freaking out but she decided that she wasn't going to die there,
Somehow the 4000lbs piece of metal just stopped like right before it would go over.

I do believe that God wants us to do things on our own power but sometimes there are just times when we need to call out to Him to reach out and pull us out of really bad situations.
Take for example people doing drugs, I've heard of a lot of people doing drugs, some of them going to rehab to quit and it's a torture for them to quit cold turkey. Then I know some people who just got sick of doing drugs and turned to Jesus to fill that hole in their heart, since then they haven't touched a drug and never even needed to go to rehab.
You can tell me "Some people just have stronger will power" but I believe that God DOES want us to do things for ourselves BUT in certain situations, He wants us to call out to Him to save us.

[Mauled by angry kittens]

Zika Justice

Mauled by angry kittens

Zika Justice

To Math145 Kane:
Yes, I do ^_^

Mauled by angry kittens:
Suppose I did stop myself from smoking especially under peer pressure BUT I'll need to explain my situation while I was drowning.
I was at the beach with my parents and like out of nowhere (both times) I was swept away by a RIP wave. I kept being pushed under by the waves (yadda yadda) but SOMEHOW I, a 9 year old girl, made my way out of the rip current which a full grown man would have trouble getting himself out of and as soon as I got back to the beach, I was told by mum (who was freaked out lol) that people were trying to reach me but I was safe by the time they got there, this happened both times.
I know for a fact that I couldn't have gotten out of there by myself and I also remember clearly that no one got the chance to help me. I'm not really that comfortable with sharing personal stories but in the case of an argument like this, it's a small price to pay.
What happened to me was a miracle and no one can make me think otherwise.

I have heard a few amazing stories such as yours from a number of people. My favorite is from my great grandmother who was, and has always been, a devout Christian. One day when going down into the cellar, she lost her balance on the long, steep flight of stairs. She fell to the concrete floor bellow and found herself on her back with many of the bones in her body broken. Now she lived at least a mile from any human contact and her phone was at the top of the stairs she had fallen down. She lay there for hours, knowing full well that if she didn't get help soon, she would die. She looked to god and said to herself "if you have anything more for me to do, this is the time to do it." After waiting about an hour more, she found no answer. All she could see were her children and all the people at her school who needed her. It was at that point that she decided that she wouldn't die there and got up. She walked up the stairs and to the telephone to call the local hospital and did so purely by forcing her own body. When the medics had gotten there, they found that most of her bones had been set, but nonetheless, she should not have been able to walk. She always said that she discovered that day that if you don't carry out God's work on your own power and only relied on him to get you through the day, you were committing the worst of Sloth.

That's quite a story and I get where you're coming from now.
I've heard of a lot of stories like that where people just SAID that they weren't going to die there and then and the words they spoke prevented it from happening.
My mum had something like that, she was driving her boyfriends car which got caught on a wet, muddy road and it started sliding downhill towards a ledge. She tried to apply the breaks but it just kept sliding, she was freaking out but she decided that she wasn't going to die there,
Somehow the 4000lbs piece of metal just stopped like right before it would go over.

I do believe that God wants us to do things on our own power but sometimes there are just times when we need to call out to Him to reach out and pull us out of really bad situations.
Take for example people doing drugs, I've heard of a lot of people doing drugs, some of them going to rehab to quit and it's a torture for them to quit cold turkey. Then I know some people who just got sick of doing drugs and turned to Jesus to fill that hole in their heart, since then they haven't touched a drug and never even needed to go to rehab.
You can tell me "Some people just have stronger will power" but I believe that God DOES want us to do things for ourselves BUT in certain situations, He wants us to call out to Him to save us.

I think that having a higher power to look up to fills the hole in a person's life created by drug use no matter what higher power it is. In the human mind, only two things trump fear and pain: the will to live and duty to a higher cause.

[Lucky~9~Lives]

Mauled by angry kittens

I think that having a higher power to look up to fills the hole in a person's life created by drug use no matter what higher power it is. In the human mind, only two things trump fear and pain: the will to live and duty to a higher cause.

The will to live is fear of death.

[Mauled by angry kittens]

Lucky~9~Lives

Mauled by angry kittens

I think that having a higher power to look up to fills the hole in a person's life created by drug use no matter what higher power it is. In the human mind, only two things trump fear and pain: the will to live and duty to a higher cause.

The will to live is fear of death.

Only in some cases. Often, the will to live is knowing that there's more to do before you can die. It's more a want and wish than a fear.

[Lucky~9~Lives]

Mauled by angry kittens

Lucky~9~Lives

The will to live is fear of death.

Only in some cases. Often, the will to live is knowing that there's more to do before you can die. It's more a want and wish than a fear.

'Knowing there's more to do before you can die' is equivalent to 'fearing dying before doing something' - in reality, the only thing that has to be done before one can die is being born.

[Mauled by angry kittens]

Lucky~9~Lives

Mauled by angry kittens

Lucky~9~Lives

The will to live is fear of death.

Only in some cases. Often, the will to live is knowing that there's more to do before you can die. It's more a want and wish than a fear.

'Knowing there's more to do before you can die' is equivalent to 'fearing dying before doing something' - in reality, the only thing that has to be done before one can die is being born.

Physically, that is so, but many people don't think their life is complete just between birth and death. As far as I've heard it, most people in near death situations don't fear death itself but want to finish their lives before they die. Fear is directly towards death. Wanting to live could have nothing to do with that direct fear of death.

[Lucky~9~Lives]

Mauled by angry kittens

Physically, that is so, but many people don't think their life is complete just between birth and death. As far as I've heard it, most people in near death situations don't fear death itself but want to finish their lives before they die. Fear is directly towards death. Wanting to live could have nothing to do with that direct fear of death.

Still fear, though.

[Mauled by angry kittens]

Lucky~9~Lives

Mauled by angry kittens

Physically, that is so, but many people don't think their life is complete just between birth and death. As far as I've heard it, most people in near death situations don't fear death itself but want to finish their lives before they die. Fear is directly towards death. Wanting to live could have nothing to do with that direct fear of death.

Still fear, though.

You seem to misunderstand. You can have will to live with no fear of death. If you feel you have something more to do with life, no matter how well you accept death, you will try to keep yourself alive.

[Lucky~9~Lives]

Mauled by angry kittens

Lucky~9~Lives

Mauled by angry kittens

Physically, that is so, but many people don't think their life is complete just between birth and death. As far as I've heard it, most people in near death situations don't fear death itself but want to finish their lives before they die. Fear is directly towards death. Wanting to live could have nothing to do with that direct fear of death.

Still fear, though.

You seem to misunderstand. You can have will to live with no fear of death. If you feel you have something more to do with life, no matter how well you accept death, you will try to keep yourself alive.

Yeah, but your original point was that the will to live trumps fear - you're proving that the will to live is fear (even if not fear of death).