What has God done for you...

[Math145 Kane]

faaah q

If I can't see it, I don't give a ********]
Well since you don't give a ******** about oxygen, stop breathing so we can all be done with your uncaring.

[Cyrus the Elder]

Kimihiro_Watanuki

I've already said it. The why is "this organization is not supporting the government".

As I have asked multiple times, why does that matter? What the ******** does that have to do with having a say in politics? You're proving by assertion, it's pointless, meaningless, in fact I can rebutt your point with a point just as damn unbacked.

Everyone, whether they support the government or not should have a say in it, because they are under the auspices of the government. This is not only not corrupt, but a noble action.

There, see, I've shown exactly as ******** much backing as you ******** have. Either answer my ******** questions or kindly keep your baseless opinions to yourself.

Quote:

It is not about forming a group. It is about rallying behind the banner of that group. YOU support the government, thus YOU get a say in politics. Your ORGANIZATION does not support the government and thus it should have no say. Why? Because it isn't supporting the government. It has no stake in it.

It supports the government because it is nothing more than a collection of people who individually support the government. The entity is nothing more than a group of people. Again, why the ******** should they have to doubly support the government simply because they want to act together as a group? And again, this still doesn't show that such acts are inherent to the church, and thus that the church is inherently corrupt.

Quote:

It's like trying to influence the policies of a free-market corporation when you're not even a stock holder.

Which plenty of people do. So does the government, I might add. Not to mention independent watchdog agencies.

Edit: Here's what you still have to show to support your original claim that churches are inherently corrupt. That churches are tax-exempt solely because of separation of church and state. That they are corrupt because the individuals in the church act together as a group to have a say in the democratic process. And that such a stance is inherent to churches. Also, you have to show your work on all three, simply screeching "They are!" over and over doesn't cut it.

[JoSlifer]

Anunnaki Assassin

What has God done for you...that you could not do for yourself?

He saved my life. I was driving home from Casper, a 3 hour drive, and it was about 3 in the morning. I dozed off, began to drift off the road, woke up, overcorrected, spun out, and rolled down the hill. My car tumbled three times, hood over trunk, and landed wheels-down. What did I get from that? A bruise on my shoulder from my seat belt, a couple other minor bruises and scratches. I'm certain that God kept me perfectly safe.

Sure, it could have simply been the physics of the situation. My car was perfectly balanced, at the perfect speed, so that I would tumble a few times, and be able to drive back on to the highway for a few yards, with no bodily injury. But Occam's razor says the simplest defintion is probably the right one, and due to the sheer magnitude of what had to go right if I relied on physics alone, the simplest definition is the God wanted me to do something in this life.

But that's only the most recent, and biggest, miracle that happened to me. Earlier, I decided to take up Jesus' challenge: "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" (John 7:17). Masturbation is against my religion, so I decided I'd try to stop it. Now, I'm a teenage male human: I really want to have sex, and the closest I can come is masturbating. I used to do it once a day or more. Then I decided to stop, and do God's will concerning it. And you know what? I didn't even want to, for several days. Trying to break oneself of masturbation without God's help is... much more difficult, if not impossible. So He helped me there.

Now, there are eleven pages of text in this thread, so I'm not going to read what everyone else said. But I did look over the first page, and I'm sad that you think you can attain salvation by yourself. What do you need to be saved from? Hell, Satan, death, yourself. Sure, you think your life's fine. The Qur'an (which I don't actually believe, but fits here) says, "The life of this world is made to seem fair to those who disbelieve, and they mock those who believe, and those who guard (against evil) shall be above them on the day of resurrection; and Allah gives means of subsistence to whom he pleases without measure" (2:212). But after the days of this life are finished... You are completely helpless.

[Mauled by angry kittens]

JoSlifer

Anunnaki Assassin

What has God done for you...that you could not do for yourself?

He saved my life. I was driving home from Casper, a 3 hour drive, and it was about 3 in the morning. I dozed off, began to drift off the road, woke up, overcorrected, spun out, and rolled down the hill. My car tumbled three times, hood over trunk, and landed wheels-down. What did I get from that? A bruise on my shoulder from my seat belt, a couple other minor bruises and scratches. I'm certain that God kept me perfectly safe.

Sure, it could have simply been the physics of the situation. My car was perfectly balanced, at the perfect speed, so that I would tumble a few times, and be able to drive back on to the highway for a few yards, with no bodily injury. But Occam's razor says the simplest defintion is probably the right one, and due to the sheer magnitude of what had to go right if I relied on physics alone, the simplest definition is the God wanted me to do something in this life.

But that's only the most recent, and biggest, miracle that happened to me. Earlier, I decided to take up Jesus' challenge: "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" (John 7:17). Masturbation is against my religion, so I decided I'd try to stop it. Now, I'm a teenage male human: I really want to have sex, and the closest I can come is masturbating. I used to do it once a day or more. Then I decided to stop, and do God's will concerning it. And you know what? I didn't even want to, for several days. Trying to break oneself of masturbation without God's help is... much more difficult, if not impossible. So He helped me there.

Now, there are eleven pages of text in this thread, so I'm not going to read what everyone else said. But I did look over the first page, and I'm sad that you think you can attain salvation by yourself. What do you need to be saved from? Hell, Satan, death, yourself. Sure, you think your life's fine. The Qur'an (which I don't actually believe, but fits here) says, "The life of this world is made to seem fair to those who disbelieve, and they mock those who believe, and those who guard (against evil) shall be above them on the day of resurrection; and Allah gives means of subsistence to whom he pleases without measure" (2:212). But after the days of this life are finished... You are completely helpless.

Actually, since we're going by Occam's razor, the simplest explanation for the whole situation is that your last drink was spiked with LSD and you hallucinated the whole thing. The bruises you sustained were probably from you thrashing wildly in your seat while you imagined the car falling. In the process, a large rock grazed off of the roof of your car and damaged it. God's will and divine intervention are much more complex answers than that.

[Mauled by angry kittens]

The way I see it, "god" is the energy of life that courses through living beings that only living beings can detect (the technical term for someone with my beliefs is Raidoka or, "one who follows the path of energy" ). So by that effect, the thing "god" did for me was exist so that living things exist. I don't believe in a higher being, only an interdependant power. A person ruling our Universe would just be too... problematic and egotistical. I believe that living things are the Universe's conscience. When humans went into space and looked at Earth, totally breathless, it was pretty much the Earth looking at itself and going "damn I look good."

As for the stories about incredible things happening to people who are in trouble, a manga plotline comes to mind. In Katekyo Hitman Reborn, they speak of a person's ultimate will as what gives them power. Now KHR isn't exactly the most philosophical manga in the world but it brings up a good point. Is it possible that these feats come simply from a person's will to accomplish the task at hand (in most of these cases, the task at hand is not dying) instead of a deity looking at the person and saying to themselves, "I'd rather save this person than one of the millions of other people who are likely to suffer worse fates"? It could just be like the adrenaline rush that, in the classic example, gives mothers the power to roll trees off of their kids.

Merely a speculation.

[Lucky~9~Lives]

Mauled by angry kittens

The way I see it, "god" is the energy of life that courses through living beings that only living beings can detect...

ATP?

[Zika Justice]

Saved my life a COUNTLESS number of times.
Saved me from drowning TWICE when I was 9.
Stopped me when I almost started smoking.
Completely changed my life when I called out to Him when I was going through some really hard times and doing some really stupid things.
Let me hear His voice, He spoke to me and let me know that He was there for me and that He would NEVER leave my side.
Makes me feel like I do have a father (my biological dad was hardly ever there).
Makes me feel like I have a friend who will back me up no matter what.

I NEVER have to feel alone because I know He's ALWAYS there.

[Mauled by angry kittens]

Lucky~9~Lives

Mauled by angry kittens

The way I see it, "god" is the energy of life that courses through living beings that only living beings can detect...

ATP?

not quite. ATP is a cellular energy source.

[Mauled by angry kittens]

Zika Justice

Saved my life a COUNTLESS number of times.
Saved me from drowning TWICE when I was 9.
Stopped me when I almost started smoking.
Completely changed my life when I called out to Him when I was going through some really hard times and doing some really stupid things.
Let me hear His voice, He spoke to me and let me know that He was there for me and that He would NEVER leave my side.
Makes me feel like I do have a father (my biological dad was hardly ever there).
Makes me feel like I have a friend who will back me up no matter what.

I NEVER have to feel alone because I know He's ALWAYS there.

I don't think you give yourself enough credit for these things. You seem to be entirely convinced that you couldn't have stopped yourself from smoking or that neither you nor the people around you could have saved you from drowning. Changing your life was another thing that you probably could have kicked yourself into doing. (see my post about dying will)

As for the other things like making you feel like you have a dad, I can't say that you would have been able to do that yourself. I can't say that I can empathize. My unconscious "god" only has made me feel less lonely by letting me know that my life has a point and that I am not the only person in the world. My wonderful ladyfriend let me know that someone cares. I feel that, for those of you who believe in a conscious god, we shouldn't put all the burden of our problems on the shoulders of that god. We can do so many things on our own power which we just give up and place our hopes in a higher being.

[Math145 Kane]

Zika Justice

Saved my life a COUNTLESS number of times.
Saved me from drowning TWICE when I was 9.
Stopped me when I almost started smoking.
Completely changed my life when I called out to Him when I was going through some really hard times and doing some really stupid things.
Let me hear His voice, He spoke to me and let me know that He was there for me and that He would NEVER leave my side.
Makes me feel like I do have a father (my biological dad was hardly ever there).
Makes me feel like I have a friend who will back me up no matter what.

I NEVER have to feel alone because I know He's ALWAYS there.

And you know for fact that it was his intervention that caused all those things to happen?

[froggymama89]

Mauled by angry kittens

The way I see it, "god" is the energy of life that courses through living beings that only living beings can detect (the technical term for someone with my beliefs is Raidoka or, "one who follows the path of energy" ). So by that effect, the thing "god" did for me was exist so that living things exist. I don't believe in a higher being, only an interdependant power. A person ruling our Universe would just be too... problematic and egotistical. I believe that living things are the Universe's conscience. When humans went into space and looked at Earth, totally breathless, it was pretty much the Earth looking at itself and going "damn I look good."

As for the stories about incredible things happening to people who are in trouble, a manga plotline comes to mind. In Katekyo Hitman Reborn, they speak of a person's ultimate will as what gives them power. Now KHR isn't exactly the most philosophical manga in the world but it brings up a good point. Is it possible that these feats come simply from a person's will to accomplish the task at hand (in most of these cases, the task at hand is not dying) instead of a deity looking at the person and saying to themselves, "I'd rather save this person than one of the millions of other people who are likely to suffer worse fates"? It could just be like the adrenaline rush that, in the classic example, gives mothers the power to roll trees off of their kids.

Merely a speculation.

I would like to answer your question but I want to make clear I will not argue religion with you. It is clear that you are strong in your faith and mine is unbreakable.

When my son was 2 months and rolled over in the crib and stopped breathing. Babies that young don't wake up when they stop breathing they just die peacefully in their sleep. However he woke up and cried. I don't even remember getting up just hearing the scariest cry ever and then holding my coughing child. The only way I can explain is God woke him up as he was already sleeping through the night and did not want to be fed or changed (the only reasons he cries other than being sleepy and he was asleep).
When I was in 8th grade I was about to kill myself and called out to the Christian God whom I did not believe in at the time for any other way out of my pain. He wrapped his arms around me and told me that he had great things in store for me. Now I'm sure your faith would say that I created that moment but I don't honestly think I have the strength do that. And unless I really did hear the voice of God then I'm crazy because I know I heard it that day.
I will explain that in my faith system we believe that because God created space and time and therefore exists outside of it. We believe that he is all powerful and can be in all places at all times doing all things. It is a hard concept to grasp but if you approach with the idea that he exists outside of space and time it makes more sense. So the quote "I'd rather save this person than one of the millions of others who are likely to suffer a worse fate" means nothing to me. Also I believe that God is all knowing and therefore knows all the possible outcomes of all our choices and knows what is going to happen to everyone and I guess knows their "fates". In my belief system everyone has the same fate in the end and it is hell and his son died to save us all from that fate just so long as we believe in our hearts.
I'm not saying I'm right only stating what I believe.

[Mauled by angry kittens]

froggymama89

Mauled by angry kittens

The way I see it, "god" is the energy of life that courses through living beings that only living beings can detect (the technical term for someone with my beliefs is Raidoka or, "one who follows the path of energy" ). So by that effect, the thing "god" did for me was exist so that living things exist. I don't believe in a higher being, only an interdependant power. A person ruling our Universe would just be too... problematic and egotistical. I believe that living things are the Universe's conscience. When humans went into space and looked at Earth, totally breathless, it was pretty much the Earth looking at itself and going "damn I look good."

As for the stories about incredible things happening to people who are in trouble, a manga plotline comes to mind. In Katekyo Hitman Reborn, they speak of a person's ultimate will as what gives them power. Now KHR isn't exactly the most philosophical manga in the world but it brings up a good point. Is it possible that these feats come simply from a person's will to accomplish the task at hand (in most of these cases, the task at hand is not dying) instead of a deity looking at the person and saying to themselves, "I'd rather save this person than one of the millions of other people who are likely to suffer worse fates"? It could just be like the adrenaline rush that, in the classic example, gives mothers the power to roll trees off of their kids.

Merely a speculation.

I would like to answer your question but I want to make clear I will not argue religion with you. It is clear that you are strong in your faith and mine is unbreakable.

When my son was 2 months and rolled over in the crib and stopped breathing. Babies that young don't wake up when they stop breathing they just die peacefully in their sleep. However he woke up and cried. I don't even remember getting up just hearing the scariest cry ever and then holding my coughing child. The only way I can explain is God woke him up as he was already sleeping through the night and did not want to be fed or changed (the only reasons he cries other than being sleepy and he was asleep).
When I was in 8th grade I was about to kill myself and called out to the Christian God whom I did not believe in at the time for any other way out of my pain. He wrapped his arms around me and told me that he had great things in store for me. Now I'm sure your faith would say that I created that moment but I don't honestly think I have the strength do that. And unless I really did hear the voice of God then I'm crazy because I know I heard it that day.
I will explain that in my faith system we believe that because God created space and time and therefore exists outside of it. We believe that he is all powerful and can be in all places at all times doing all things. It is a hard concept to grasp but if you approach with the idea that he exists outside of space and time it makes more sense. So the quote "I'd rather save this person than one of the millions of others who are likely to suffer a worse fate" means nothing to me. Also I believe that God is all knowing and therefore knows all the possible outcomes of all our choices and knows what is going to happen to everyone and I guess knows their "fates". In my belief system everyone has the same fate in the end and it is hell and his son died to save us all from that fate just so long as we believe in our hearts.
I'm not saying I'm right only stating what I believe.

It appears we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I don't think either of us are going to give in. However, I believe that if a conscious god were to make a baby cry instead of sleeping peacefully and dying, then that god would have the compassion to give people who are starving or who are innocent victims of a war, the little nudge of luck they would need to get away. As I see that this has not been done, I think that either, A) there is a conscious god that has decided to let the world be and let us humans make our own choices and live our own lives without intervention, B) there is a conscious god who is selective in who it saves, in which case I would rather suffer whatever eternal consequences that god has for me than follow under it, or C) there is an unconscious higher power.
I think you aren't giving yourself enough credit for the suicide thing. I won't argue about this because I know that we will never reach a conclusion, but do you not wonder if possibly the voice you heard was one of your own, telling you that you have much more to live for? Just a thought. It's again with the ultimate will of the broken bringing them to act as they never could before.

[Zika Justice]

To Math145 Kane:
Yes, I do ^_^

Mauled by angry kittens:
Suppose I did stop myself from smoking especially under peer pressure BUT I'll need to explain my situation while I was drowning.
I was at the beach with my parents and like out of nowhere (both times) I was swept away by a RIP wave. I kept being pushed under by the waves (yadda yadda) but SOMEHOW I, a 9 year old girl, made my way out of the rip current which a full grown man would have trouble getting himself out of and as soon as I got back to the beach, I was told by mum (who was freaked out lol) that people were trying to reach me but I was safe by the time they got there, this happened both times.
I know for a fact that I couldn't have gotten out of there by myself and I also remember clearly that no one got the chance to help me. I'm not really that comfortable with sharing personal stories but in the case of an argument like this, it's a small price to pay.
What happened to me was a miracle and no one can make me think otherwise.

[froggymama89]

Mauled by angry kittens

froggymama89

Mauled by angry kittens

The way I see it, "god" is the energy of life that courses through living beings that only living beings can detect (the technical term for someone with my beliefs is Raidoka or, "one who follows the path of energy" ). So by that effect, the thing "god" did for me was exist so that living things exist. I don't believe in a higher being, only an interdependant power. A person ruling our Universe would just be too... problematic and egotistical. I believe that living things are the Universe's conscience. When humans went into space and looked at Earth, totally breathless, it was pretty much the Earth looking at itself and going "damn I look good."

As for the stories about incredible things happening to people who are in trouble, a manga plotline comes to mind. In Katekyo Hitman Reborn, they speak of a person's ultimate will as what gives them power. Now KHR isn't exactly the most philosophical manga in the world but it brings up a good point. Is it possible that these feats come simply from a person's will to accomplish the task at hand (in most of these cases, the task at hand is not dying) instead of a deity looking at the person and saying to themselves, "I'd rather save this person than one of the millions of other people who are likely to suffer worse fates"? It could just be like the adrenaline rush that, in the classic example, gives mothers the power to roll trees off of their kids.

Merely a speculation.

I would like to answer your question but I want to make clear I will not argue religion with you. It is clear that you are strong in your faith and mine is unbreakable.

When my son was 2 months and rolled over in the crib and stopped breathing. Babies that young don't wake up when they stop breathing they just die peacefully in their sleep. However he woke up and cried. I don't even remember getting up just hearing the scariest cry ever and then holding my coughing child. The only way I can explain is God woke him up as he was already sleeping through the night and did not want to be fed or changed (the only reasons he cries other than being sleepy and he was asleep).
When I was in 8th grade I was about to kill myself and called out to the Christian God whom I did not believe in at the time for any other way out of my pain. He wrapped his arms around me and told me that he had great things in store for me. Now I'm sure your faith would say that I created that moment but I don't honestly think I have the strength do that. And unless I really did hear the voice of God then I'm crazy because I know I heard it that day.
I will explain that in my faith system we believe that because God created space and time and therefore exists outside of it. We believe that he is all powerful and can be in all places at all times doing all things. It is a hard concept to grasp but if you approach with the idea that he exists outside of space and time it makes more sense. So the quote "I'd rather save this person than one of the millions of others who are likely to suffer a worse fate" means nothing to me. Also I believe that God is all knowing and therefore knows all the possible outcomes of all our choices and knows what is going to happen to everyone and I guess knows their "fates". In my belief system everyone has the same fate in the end and it is hell and his son died to save us all from that fate just so long as we believe in our hearts.
I'm not saying I'm right only stating what I believe.

It appears we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I don't think either of us are going to give in. However, I believe that if a conscious god were to make a baby cry instead of sleeping peacefully and dying, then that god would have the compassion to give people who are starving or who are innocent victims of a war, the little nudge of luck they would need to get away. As I see that this has not been done, I think that either, A) there is a conscious god that has decided to let the world be and let us humans make our own choices and live our own lives without intervention, B) there is a conscious god who is selective in who it saves, in which case I would rather suffer whatever eternal consequences that god has for me than follow under it, or C) there is an unconscious higher power.
I think you aren't giving yourself enough credit for the suicide thing. I won't argue about this because I know that we will never reach a conclusion, but do you not wonder if possibly the voice you heard was one of your own, telling you that you have much more to live for? Just a thought. It's again with the ultimate will of the broken bringing them to act as they never could before.

That's a new one and I say its far better than the person who said it was aliens. I highly doubt I at the age of 13 would be able to have a masculine, fatherly voice, one full of love and power. And at the time I had nothing to live for. Under the philosophy of my religion all have sinned (chosen to do wrong) and no sin is worse than another it all bad in God's eyes. He knows those people are hurting but they sin too. Also its the churches responsibility to care for the starving, sick, orphaned, homeless, and imprisoned. Because of the fall the world is not perfect and if suddenly war ended and it won't until you eliminate the selfish nature of man which can't be done without God or World hunger miraculously ended there would be no reason for faith. God wants us to love him out of our own will and that's what faith is all about. It's loving and trusting in him even though we don't know for a fact without a shadow of a doubt he is real. I doubt sometimes and then I remind myself it doesn't matter for me at least. My faith in God gives me a higher purpose I didn't have on my own. And it was through my faith that I was able to clean up and stay clean and get a college education so my son could have a future. I know these are all things I could do on my own but my faith and having a doctrine to follow, a higher being to answer to keeps me on the straight and narrow. Am I making any sense?

[Mauled by angry kittens]

froggymama89

Mauled by angry kittens

froggymama89

Mauled by angry kittens

The way I see it, "god" is the energy of life that courses through living beings that only living beings can detect (the technical term for someone with my beliefs is Raidoka or, "one who follows the path of energy" ). So by that effect, the thing "god" did for me was exist so that living things exist. I don't believe in a higher being, only an interdependant power. A person ruling our Universe would just be too... problematic and egotistical. I believe that living things are the Universe's conscience. When humans went into space and looked at Earth, totally breathless, it was pretty much the Earth looking at itself and going "damn I look good."

As for the stories about incredible things happening to people who are in trouble, a manga plotline comes to mind. In Katekyo Hitman Reborn, they speak of a person's ultimate will as what gives them power. Now KHR isn't exactly the most philosophical manga in the world but it brings up a good point. Is it possible that these feats come simply from a person's will to accomplish the task at hand (in most of these cases, the task at hand is not dying) instead of a deity looking at the person and saying to themselves, "I'd rather save this person than one of the millions of other people who are likely to suffer worse fates"? It could just be like the adrenaline rush that, in the classic example, gives mothers the power to roll trees off of their kids.

Merely a speculation.

I would like to answer your question but I want to make clear I will not argue religion with you. It is clear that you are strong in your faith and mine is unbreakable.

When my son was 2 months and rolled over in the crib and stopped breathing. Babies that young don't wake up when they stop breathing they just die peacefully in their sleep. However he woke up and cried. I don't even remember getting up just hearing the scariest cry ever and then holding my coughing child. The only way I can explain is God woke him up as he was already sleeping through the night and did not want to be fed or changed (the only reasons he cries other than being sleepy and he was asleep).
When I was in 8th grade I was about to kill myself and called out to the Christian God whom I did not believe in at the time for any other way out of my pain. He wrapped his arms around me and told me that he had great things in store for me. Now I'm sure your faith would say that I created that moment but I don't honestly think I have the strength do that. And unless I really did hear the voice of God then I'm crazy because I know I heard it that day.
I will explain that in my faith system we believe that because God created space and time and therefore exists outside of it. We believe that he is all powerful and can be in all places at all times doing all things. It is a hard concept to grasp but if you approach with the idea that he exists outside of space and time it makes more sense. So the quote "I'd rather save this person than one of the millions of others who are likely to suffer a worse fate" means nothing to me. Also I believe that God is all knowing and therefore knows all the possible outcomes of all our choices and knows what is going to happen to everyone and I guess knows their "fates". In my belief system everyone has the same fate in the end and it is hell and his son died to save us all from that fate just so long as we believe in our hearts.
I'm not saying I'm right only stating what I believe.

It appears we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I don't think either of us are going to give in. However, I believe that if a conscious god were to make a baby cry instead of sleeping peacefully and dying, then that god would have the compassion to give people who are starving or who are innocent victims of a war, the little nudge of luck they would need to get away. As I see that this has not been done, I think that either, A) there is a conscious god that has decided to let the world be and let us humans make our own choices and live our own lives without intervention, B) there is a conscious god who is selective in who it saves, in which case I would rather suffer whatever eternal consequences that god has for me than follow under it, or C) there is an unconscious higher power.
I think you aren't giving yourself enough credit for the suicide thing. I won't argue about this because I know that we will never reach a conclusion, but do you not wonder if possibly the voice you heard was one of your own, telling you that you have much more to live for? Just a thought. It's again with the ultimate will of the broken bringing them to act as they never could before.

That's a new one and I say its far better than the person who said it was aliens. I highly doubt I at the age of 13 would be able to have a masculine, fatherly voice, one full of love and power. And at the time I had nothing to live for. Under the philosophy of my religion all have sinned (chosen to do wrong) and no sin is worse than another it all bad in God's eyes. He knows those people are hurting but they sin too. Also its the churches responsibility to care for the starving, sick, orphaned, homeless, and imprisoned. Because of the fall the world is not perfect and if suddenly war ended and it won't until you eliminate the selfish nature of man which can't be done without God or World hunger miraculously ended there would be no reason for faith. God wants us to love him out of our own will and that's what faith is all about. It's loving and trusting in him even though we don't know for a fact without a shadow of a doubt he is real. I doubt sometimes and then I remind myself it doesn't matter for me at least. My faith in God gives me a higher purpose I didn't have on my own. And it was through my faith that I was able to clean up and stay clean and get a college education so my son could have a future. I know these are all things I could do on my own but my faith and having a doctrine to follow, a higher being to answer to keeps me on the straight and narrow. Am I making any sense?

You make complete sense. However, when I talk about your "voice", I mean the voices of your personalities. There's always a reason for a person's life and something inside everybody always knows that. In the words of Hiko Seijuro, "the will to live is the strongest power in the body of a person." I suppose it is entirely possible that it was a god, or the God depending, but I still think that it isn't just God's will that drives the work of good. For instance, you said that it is the job of the church to take in the unfortunate and needy. However, I have known equally hospitable and charitable organizations run by complete atheists. It is the willpower of those who wish to do good things that makes good things happen, as far as I see it. If the people had no wish to do good, then nothing God could do would create a society that does good. The will may be in a god/ God, but the power and the conscience is in the people.