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Nathiuz
[Ren The Ryoko]


Surely you can see why this is not an impressive argument.

It all falls apart riiiiiight "If my thoughts are not material, then what my senses detect are also not-material." <- there.

Just because your thoughts are not material (though your brain, which produces and harbors your ability to think IS) does not mean that objects you sense with your sensory organs are not material.


Why not? How can something which is immaterial detect something which is material?

I do not know my brain exists, nor do I know that my sensory organs exist. I only know that my own thoughts exist, and everything else is an illusion. There is not enough "proof" otherwise.
How exactly does B follow from A here?

Also, given that thoughts are the interactions between chemicals and electrical signals in the brain, they are pretty physical...
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Nathiuz
[Ren The Ryoko]


Surely you can see why this is not an impressive argument.

It all falls apart riiiiiight "If my thoughts are not material, then what my senses detect are also not-material." <- there.

Just because your thoughts are not material (though your brain, which produces and harbors your ability to think IS) does not mean that objects you sense with your sensory organs are not material.


Why not? How can something which is immaterial detect something which is material?

I do not know my brain exists, nor do I know that my sensory organs exist. I only know that my own thoughts exist, and everything else is an illusion. There is not enough "proof" otherwise.
How exactly does B follow from A here?

Also, given that thoughts are the interactions between chemicals and electrical signals in the brain, they are pretty physical...


The idea that thoughts are chemical interactions or electrical signals in the brain is irrelevant here though - let us assume for a moment that he's right, and that there is no matter. If nothing in the world is material, then what we perceive as matter is just that, a perception.

It's like in a dream; some dreams that you can have are very realistic, and while you're dreaming, you believe that they are real, even though they're not. Lets say that you dream that you are talking to your best friend - at the time, you perceive that your best friend is there talking to you, but your actual, material best friend is not really there. Do you get what I'm saying? Or better yet, like when you dream that you are falling down the stairs, and your leg twitches, even though you're not actually falling. Who is to say that everything that our life consists of isn't just perception, we believe what we see, and label it matter, despite that eventually we'll just wake up?
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[Ren The Ryoko]

What proof or evidence do you have that there is no material universe?


Let me ask you this, what proof do you have that there IS a material universe?
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Nathiuz
I only know that my own thoughts exist, and everything else is an illusion.
How exactly does B follow from A here?

Also, given that thoughts are the interactions between chemicals and electrical signals in the brain, they are pretty physical...


If only my own thoughts exist, then anything besides my own thoughts exist (and myself) by default, do not exist.

The electrical signals, chemicals, etc do make sense, by your definition. However, scientists cannot even agree on what produces thought. So go by chemicals, some go by electrical signals, some go by both, there's even this nifty "quantum thought" thing going on. If anything, it could be suggested that those seeking a material answer have just as much "proof" as I do.
Out of the Big Bang came time. There was no time before the big bang
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Nathiuz
[Ren The Ryoko]


Surely you can see why this is not an impressive argument.

It all falls apart riiiiiight "If my thoughts are not material, then what my senses detect are also not-material." <- there.

Just because your thoughts are not material (though your brain, which produces and harbors your ability to think IS) does not mean that objects you sense with your sensory organs are not material.


Why not? How can something which is immaterial detect something which is material?

I do not know my brain exists, nor do I know that my sensory organs exist. I only know that my own thoughts exist, and everything else is an illusion. There is not enough "proof" otherwise.


Your sensory organs are not immaterial. The way by which your brain processes information is not immaterial. The chemicals and synapses that regulate and control our thoughts are not immaterial.

On some level, I suppose, sure, there is an assumption that you aren't just a brain floating in a jar somewhere but...why WOULD you assume that you were just a brain? Why distrust your perceptions to that large of a degree?
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SpunkleMcKats
[Ren The Ryoko]

What proof or evidence do you have that there is no material universe?


Let me ask you this, what proof do you have that there IS a material universe?


The fact that I interact with it? The fact that we are having this conversation? The general consensus of human thought based on everything we've experienced since birth?

I mean, sure, as I've said, to some degree we have to assume that we aren't just brains in jars. But why would I assume that I was? I've been given no evidence that reality isn't REAL.
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[Ren The Ryoko]
SpunkleMcKats
[Ren The Ryoko]

What proof or evidence do you have that there is no material universe?


Let me ask you this, what proof do you have that there IS a material universe?


The fact that I interact with it? The fact that we are having this conversation? The general consensus of human thought based on everything we've experienced since birth?

I mean, sure, as I've said, to some degree we have to assume that we aren't just brains in jars. But why would I assume that I was? I've been given no evidence that reality isn't REAL.


But when you're dreaming, do you not interact with the environment in your dream? Does that not also appear to be material? Yet when you awaken, it is then considered non-material because you can no longer interact with it. No?

Furthermore, who is to say that you were born? or that any past exists what-so-ever?
It could be said that the memories that you have of the so-called past are just a story imprinted into your mind - it's summed up nicely by a quote from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy; The Resturant at the End of the Universe:

The Ultimate Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams page 282
"How can I tell," said the man, "that the past isn't a fiction esigned to account for the discrepancy between my immediate physical sensations and my state of mind?"


And I'm not arguing the interactablility of the world, I am merely pointing out that you may not be interacting with anything other than thought itself. Like rotating an object in your mind, or doing mental math; nothing physical exists, merely the perception. Do you see?
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[Ren The Ryoko]

What proof or evidence do you have that there is no material universe?


Let me ask you this, what proof do you have that there IS a material universe?


The fact that I interact with it? The fact that we are having this conversation? The general consensus of human thought based on everything we've experienced since birth?

I mean, sure, as I've said, to some degree we have to assume that we aren't just brains in jars. But why would I assume that I was? I've been given no evidence that reality isn't REAL.


But when you're dreaming, do you not interact with the environment in your dream? Does that not also appear to be material? Yet when you awaken, it is then considered non-material because you can no longer interact with it. No?

Furthermore, who is to say that you were born? or that any past exists what-so-ever?
It could be said that the memories that you have of the so-called past are just a story imprinted into your mind - it's summed up nicely by a quote from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy; The Resturant at the End of the Universe:

The Ultimate Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams page 282
"How can I tell," said the man, "that the past isn't a fiction esigned to account for the discrepancy between my immediate physical sensations and my state of mind?"


And I'm not arguing the interactablility of the world, I am merely pointing out that you may not be interacting with anything other than thought itself. Like rotating an object in your mind, or doing mental math; nothing physical exists, merely the perception. Do you see?


As I've said before: I'm a lucid dreamer. I'm aware when I'm dreaming roughly 90% of the dreams I remember. So...I can tell, even during the dream, the difference between the dream and reality.

But regardless: I have no reason to doubt the realness of reality. There's no evidence for me to doubt this world.
And even if I did: so what? What does that philosophy actually get anyone?
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I'm sure somebody has probably covered it but I'd like to pop in with a short, concise bit about the Big Bang.

No good, reasonable person should assume anything about what happened before the Big Bang. They may make speculations based on their own, feeble understanding of physics, but only while accepting that this is only speculation and not fact, or even a reasonable scientific theory.

Now for what I personally think? It is a concept that's difficult to put into words; infinity and nullity are exactly the same, and although it seems like a paradox to puny human brains, that existence is a natural part of non-existence.
[Ren The Ryoko]


Your sensory organs are not immaterial. The way by which your brain processes information is not immaterial. The chemicals and synapses that regulate and control our thoughts are not immaterial.


I'm inclined to disagree. However, I have tried to explain the belief of non-matter as well as I could. I cannot describe non-matter while using material examples or explanations. The notions that the reasons one thinks is due to something that can be explained as material are likely just as preposterous as the belief that matter does not exist.

Unfortunately, this discussion is more or less moot at this point.

[Ren The Ryoko]
On some level, I suppose, sure, there is an assumption that you aren't just a brain floating in a jar somewhere but...why WOULD you assume that you were just a brain? Why distrust your perceptions to that large of a degree?


I couldn't be just a brain, as a "brain" is a material concept, and I would not be able to sense anything. You could not assume that you were just a brain in a jar, since there would be nothing with which you could correlate the experience to. The only thing I could prove as "real" in that situation is that I would have thoughts, and that I exist as a thinking being.


[Ren The Ryoko]
Why distrust your perceptions to that large of a degree?


I don't know, actually. I'm just trying to cause controversy and shake things up.
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[Ren The Ryoko]
SpunkleMcKats
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SpunkleMcKats
[Ren The Ryoko]

What proof or evidence do you have that there is no material universe?


Let me ask you this, what proof do you have that there IS a material universe?


The fact that I interact with it? The fact that we are having this conversation? The general consensus of human thought based on everything we've experienced since birth?

I mean, sure, as I've said, to some degree we have to assume that we aren't just brains in jars. But why would I assume that I was? I've been given no evidence that reality isn't REAL.


But when you're dreaming, do you not interact with the environment in your dream? Does that not also appear to be material? Yet when you awaken, it is then considered non-material because you can no longer interact with it. No?

Furthermore, who is to say that you were born? or that any past exists what-so-ever?
It could be said that the memories that you have of the so-called past are just a story imprinted into your mind - it's summed up nicely by a quote from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy; The Resturant at the End of the Universe:

The Ultimate Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams page 282
"How can I tell," said the man, "that the past isn't a fiction esigned to account for the discrepancy between my immediate physical sensations and my state of mind?"


And I'm not arguing the interactablility of the world, I am merely pointing out that you may not be interacting with anything other than thought itself. Like rotating an object in your mind, or doing mental math; nothing physical exists, merely the perception. Do you see?


As I've said before: I'm a lucid dreamer. I'm aware when I'm dreaming roughly 90% of the dreams I remember. So...I can tell, even during the dream, the difference between the dream and reality.

But regardless: I have no reason to doubt the realness of reality. There's no evidence for me to doubt this world.
And even if I did: so what? What does that philosophy actually get anyone?


Okay, so you lucid dream, I do too. But what if this is just one great big dream? Everything in life? This actually reminds me a lot of Plato's myth of the cave. Ever hear of it?

The "realness of reality" isn't under question here. It's whether or not the world that we appear to live in is strictly material, strictly non-material, or some form of dualism. Again, you say you have no reason to doubt the world, neither did the main characters in Plato's Myth of the Cave. Yet what they had come to know as reality was untrue, and the one who told them what the world was really like was not believed for the same reason - no one else had any reason to doubt their world views.

"So what?" you ask? Well if all the world is only matter, than we have no afterlife/reincarnation/heaven/hell to look forward to, thereby we must ammend our actions for the sole purpose of how it will affect those who come after us. If all the world is only spirit/non-matter, then presumably we would alter our lives to reach our personal higher goal, nirvana or realizing that atman and brahmin are the same (sp), etc. Same concept applies to dualism and theism.

You might like the story, "The Egg" it's by Andy Weir on galactica.net under writings, it's only a page long... I think you'd find it interesting. -nods-

In the short term, all of this is just mental masturbation. It's fun. :3
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Nathiuz
[Ren The Ryoko]


Your sensory organs are not immaterial. The way by which your brain processes information is not immaterial. The chemicals and synapses that regulate and control our thoughts are not immaterial.


I'm inclined to disagree. However, I have tried to explain the belief of non-matter as well as I could. I cannot describe non-matter while using material examples or explanations. The notions that the reasons one thinks is due to something that can be explained as material are likely just as preposterous as the belief that matter does not exist.

Unfortunately, this discussion is more or less moot at this point.

[Ren The Ryoko]
On some level, I suppose, sure, there is an assumption that you aren't just a brain floating in a jar somewhere but...why WOULD you assume that you were just a brain? Why distrust your perceptions to that large of a degree?


I couldn't be just a brain, as a "brain" is a material concept, and I would not be able to sense anything. You could not assume that you were just a brain in a jar, since there would be nothing with which you could correlate the experience to. The only thing I could prove as "real" in that situation is that I would have thoughts, and that I exist as a thinking being.


[Ren The Ryoko]
Why distrust your perceptions to that large of a degree?


I don't know, actually. I'm just trying to cause controversy and shake things up.





-shrugs- Nihilism has never seemed interesting to me. You've got the basis for the Matrix. Woopee.

There's no reason to doubt our perceptions to that degree, and even if we DID: so what? What do we do with that? What philosophical direction does that point you towards? It doesn't change what you ARE perceiving.

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SpunkleMcKats
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Let me ask you this, what proof do you have that there IS a material universe?


The fact that I interact with it? The fact that we are having this conversation? The general consensus of human thought based on everything we've experienced since birth?

I mean, sure, as I've said, to some degree we have to assume that we aren't just brains in jars. But why would I assume that I was? I've been given no evidence that reality isn't REAL.


But when you're dreaming, do you not interact with the environment in your dream? Does that not also appear to be material? Yet when you awaken, it is then considered non-material because you can no longer interact with it. No?

Furthermore, who is to say that you were born? or that any past exists what-so-ever?
It could be said that the memories that you have of the so-called past are just a story imprinted into your mind - it's summed up nicely by a quote from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy; The Resturant at the End of the Universe:

The Ultimate Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams page 282
"How can I tell," said the man, "that the past isn't a fiction esigned to account for the discrepancy between my immediate physical sensations and my state of mind?"


And I'm not arguing the interactablility of the world, I am merely pointing out that you may not be interacting with anything other than thought itself. Like rotating an object in your mind, or doing mental math; nothing physical exists, merely the perception. Do you see?


As I've said before: I'm a lucid dreamer. I'm aware when I'm dreaming roughly 90% of the dreams I remember. So...I can tell, even during the dream, the difference between the dream and reality.

But regardless: I have no reason to doubt the realness of reality. There's no evidence for me to doubt this world.
And even if I did: so what? What does that philosophy actually get anyone?


Okay, so you lucid dream, I do too. But what if this is just one great big dream? Everything in life? This actually reminds me a lot of Plato's myth of the cave. Ever hear of it?

The "realness of reality" isn't under question here. It's whether or not the world that we appear to live in is strictly material, strictly non-material, or some form of dualism. Again, you say you have no reason to doubt the world, neither did the main characters in Plato's Myth of the Cave. Yet what they had come to know as reality was untrue, and the one who told them what the world was really like was not believed for the same reason - no one else had any reason to doubt their world views.

"So what?" you ask? Well if all the world is only matter, than we have no afterlife/reincarnation/heaven/hell to look forward to, thereby we must ammend our actions for the sole purpose of how it will affect those who come after us. If all the world is only spirit/non-matter, then presumably we would alter our lives to reach our personal higher goal, nirvana or realizing that atman and brahmin are the same (sp), etc. Same concept applies to dualism and theism.

You might like the story, "The Egg" it's by Andy Weir on galactica.net under writings, it's only a page long... I think you'd find it interesting. -nods-

In the short term, all of this is just mental masturbation. It's fun. :3





"The Cave" is a parable, not a myth. But yes, I've read it.

I just don't see any benefit from doubting out perceptions to that degree. You have all the same benefits with Atheist, AND the understanding that your actions can harm and benefit others. With nihilism there's no incentive to help others, as your thoughts and your existence are all you can be sure exist.
[Ren The Ryoko]

-shrugs- Nihilism has never seemed interesting to me. You've got the basis for the Matrix. Woopee.

There's no reason to doubt our perceptions to that degree, and even if we DID: so what? What do we do with that? What philosophical direction does that point you towards? It doesn't change what you ARE perceiving.



Spiritual Monism =/= Nihilism, nor is it the basis for the Matrix.

Good try though. Many Buddhists subscribe to Spiritual Monism, suggesting that the material world is an illusion, and that one must work to break themselves free from the constraints of their illusions to reach enlightenment.

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