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deadmanjesse
Votaro
No, it means that for those that the stereotypes are correct for, they need to use them constructively and change themselves for the better by using them constructively.
This assumes that stereotypes actually convey something.
Stereotypes are born of poor observations, those who are guilty of reinforcing such claims by proving them correct for themselves, need undo the damage they cause by chagning themselves for the better.

For example, the stereotype that black people steal things frequently, though it is wrong to assume that all black people are thieves, sadly it don't change the fact that some do steal things (Some of every race steals in fact). The chances of improving how people react to stereotypes is far more likely than the possibility that you can remove people's ability and habit of making stereotypes, in fact removing such a thing all together would be quite impossible, so it's best to simply focus on the possible in this case.
Votaro
deadmanjesse
Votaro
No, it means that for those that the stereotypes are correct for, they need to use them constructively and change themselves for the better by using them constructively.
This assumes that stereotypes actually convey something.
Stereotypes are born of poor observations, those who are guilty of reinforcing such claims by proving them correct for themselves, need undo the damage they cause by chagning themselves for the better.

For example, the stereotype that black people steal things frequently, though it is wrong to assume that all black people are thieves, sadly it don't change the fact that some do steal things (Some of every race steals in fact). The chances of improving how people react to stereotypes is far more likely than the possibility that you can remove people's ability and habit of making stereotypes, in fact removing such a thing all together would be quite impossible, so it's best to simply focus on the possible in this case.
So you're saying that it's black people's fault for creating the stereotype of black people are theives? Way to shift the blame and give a justification for bigotry.
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deadmanjesse
Votaro
deadmanjesse
Votaro
No, it means that for those that the stereotypes are correct for, they need to use them constructively and change themselves for the better by using them constructively.
This assumes that stereotypes actually convey something.
Stereotypes are born of poor observations, those who are guilty of reinforcing such claims by proving them correct for themselves, need undo the damage they cause by chagning themselves for the better.

For example, the stereotype that black people steal things frequently, though it is wrong to assume that all black people are thieves, sadly it don't change the fact that some do steal things (Some of every race steals in fact). The chances of improving how people react to stereotypes is far more likely than the possibility that you can remove people's ability and habit of making stereotypes, in fact removing such a thing all together would be quite impossible, so it's best to simply focus on the possible in this case.
So you're saying that it's black people's fault for creating the stereotype of black people are theives? Way to shift the blame and give a justification for bigotry.
No, I'm saying that it's everyone who is involved with the creation of a stereotype's fault while it is those who are of the category's responsibility to prove it incorrect. Why must you keep on trying to twist my words?
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Votaro
No, I'm saying that it's everyone who is involved with the creation of a stereotype's fault while it is those who are of the category's responsibility to prove it incorrect.
You're right.

ATTENTION ASIANS. STOP DOING MATH. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE RACIST BELIEF THAT ALL ASIANS ARE GOOD AT MATH.

ATTENTION BLACKS. STOP PLAYING BASKETBALL. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE RACIST BELIEF THAT BLACKS ARE GOOD AT SPORTS.

HISPANICS, LISTEN UP. DON'T FALL ASLEEP. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE RACIST BELIEF THAT HISPANICS ARE LAZY AND LIKE THEIR NAPS.

HEY, VOTARO. STOP WHINING ABOUT PEOPLE "TWISTING YOUR WORDS" WHEN YOUR ARGUMENT IS JUST AS STUPID AS THE SIMPLIFIED VERSION WE ARE MAKING FUN OF. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE ENTIRELY ACCURATE BELIEF THAT ALL VOTAROS ARE ******** MORONS WHO SHIFTS THE BLAME ONTO THE TARGETS OF RACIST STEREOTYPES RATHER THAN THE BIGOTS WHO BELIEVE IN THEM.
Ban
So? When did I become you?
Votaro
Why must you keep on trying to twist my words?
You know that's the same defense Sarah Palin used when she was quoted in an Obama ad. I guess "great" minds do think alike.
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deadmanjesse
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So? When did I become you?
I Total Recall'd you.

YOU'VE ALWAYS BEEN ME QUAID. NOW GET YOUR a** TO MARS.
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Votaro
No, I'm saying that it's everyone who is involved with the creation of a stereotype's fault while it is those who are of the category's responsibility to prove it incorrect.
You're right.

ATTENTION ASIANS. STOP DOING MATH. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE RACIST BELIEF THAT ALL ASIANS ARE GOOD AT MATH.

ATTENTION BLACKS. STOP PLAYING BASKETBALL. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE RACIST BELIEF THAT BLACKS ARE GOOD AT SPORTS.

HISPANICS, LISTEN UP. DON'T FALL ASLEEP. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE RACIST BELIEF THAT HISPANICS ARE LAZY AND LIKE THEIR NAPS.

HEY, VOTARO. STOP WHINING ABOUT PEOPLE "TWISTING YOUR WORDS" WHEN YOUR ARGUMENT IS JUST AS STUPID AS THE SIMPLIFIED VERSION WE ARE MAKING FUN OF. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE ENTIRELY ACCURATE BELIEF THAT ALL VOTAROS ARE ******** MORONS WHO SHIFTS THE BLAME ONTO THE TARGETS OF RACIST STEREOTYPES RATHER THAN THE BIGOTS WHO BELIEVE IN THEM.
Not all stereotypes are negative but the negative ones are the ones I am mainly referring to, oddly enough, I've found quite a few black people who agree with this, they complain how many of the others of their skin color set a bad image for them, what you don't understand is that this is a defense for everyone who suffers from a stereotype. It is to blame the majority who set a bad image, not to blame all regardless.

Also, I'm not whining, I'm baffled to what could be gained from it not to mention it's a fail each time in which further baffles me. I'm simply seeking an answer to a baffling observation LOL
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Votaro
Not all stereotypes are negative but the negative ones are the ones I am mainly referring to, oddly enough, I've found quite a few black people who agree with this, they complain how many of the others of their skin color set a bad image for them, what you don't understand is that this is a defense for everyone who suffers from a stereotype. It is to blame the majority who set a bad image, not to blame all regardless.
Oh, so now the "majority" of blacks are street thugs, then majority of Hispanics are illegal immigrants, the majority of Jews are greedy, et cetera, et cetera? Seriously, why do you accuse people of "twisting your words" when you say say such stupid ******** things?

Any stereotype is an illogical generalization based in racism. The assertion that some blacks might buy into racist rhetoric does not change that. It just amounts to an appeal to an irrelevant authority.

Votaro
Also, I'm not whining, I'm baffled to what could be gained from it not to mention it's a fail each time in which further baffles me. I'm simply seeking an answer to a baffling observation LOL
You are baffled that someone might make fun of you, when you express the opinion that stereotyped groups have a "responsibility" to disprove the racist viewpoints of bigots?

I suppose your befuddlement is just another symptom of the common Votaro's low intelligence.
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Votaro
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Votaro
No, I'm saying that it's everyone who is involved with the creation of a stereotype's fault while it is those who are of the category's responsibility to prove it incorrect.
You're right.

ATTENTION ASIANS. STOP DOING MATH. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE RACIST BELIEF THAT ALL ASIANS ARE GOOD AT MATH.

ATTENTION BLACKS. STOP PLAYING BASKETBALL. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE RACIST BELIEF THAT BLACKS ARE GOOD AT SPORTS.

HISPANICS, LISTEN UP. DON'T FALL ASLEEP. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE RACIST BELIEF THAT HISPANICS ARE LAZY AND LIKE THEIR NAPS.

HEY, VOTARO. STOP WHINING ABOUT PEOPLE "TWISTING YOUR WORDS" WHEN YOUR ARGUMENT IS JUST AS STUPID AS THE SIMPLIFIED VERSION WE ARE MAKING FUN OF. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE ENTIRELY ACCURATE BELIEF THAT ALL VOTAROS ARE ******** MORONS WHO SHIFTS THE BLAME ONTO THE TARGETS OF RACIST STEREOTYPES RATHER THAN THE BIGOTS WHO BELIEVE IN THEM.
Not all stereotypes are negative but the negative ones are the ones I am mainly referring to, oddly enough, I've found quite a few black people who agree with this, they complain how many of the others of their skin color set a bad image for them, what you don't understand is that this is a defense for everyone who suffers from a stereotype. It is to blame the majority who set a bad image, not to blame all regardless.

Also, I'm not whining, I'm baffled to what could be gained from it not to mention it's a fail each time in which further baffles me. I'm simply seeking an answer to a baffling observation LOL


I think what you are refering to (I'll use my own demographic as an example) woman that won't do the heavy lifting, but then complain about woman being classified as weak. Here we have a case of a factual truth, women on the whole do not have as much upper body strength as men, that is sometimes used as an excuse why one can not do their part.

Then later, kicking back over brews, the other woman that busted a** all day, gets to listen to how woman are so weak and helpless, and natural gets pissed at both sides. The other female for perpetuating a negative stereotype for her own motives, and the males for being taken in by it.

Do I have that about right?
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vwytche
Votaro
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Votaro
No, I'm saying that it's everyone who is involved with the creation of a stereotype's fault while it is those who are of the category's responsibility to prove it incorrect.
You're right.

ATTENTION ASIANS. STOP DOING MATH. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE RACIST BELIEF THAT ALL ASIANS ARE GOOD AT MATH.

ATTENTION BLACKS. STOP PLAYING BASKETBALL. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE RACIST BELIEF THAT BLACKS ARE GOOD AT SPORTS.

HISPANICS, LISTEN UP. DON'T FALL ASLEEP. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE RACIST BELIEF THAT HISPANICS ARE LAZY AND LIKE THEIR NAPS.

HEY, VOTARO. STOP WHINING ABOUT PEOPLE "TWISTING YOUR WORDS" WHEN YOUR ARGUMENT IS JUST AS STUPID AS THE SIMPLIFIED VERSION WE ARE MAKING FUN OF. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE ENTIRELY ACCURATE BELIEF THAT ALL VOTAROS ARE ******** MORONS WHO SHIFTS THE BLAME ONTO THE TARGETS OF RACIST STEREOTYPES RATHER THAN THE BIGOTS WHO BELIEVE IN THEM.
Not all stereotypes are negative but the negative ones are the ones I am mainly referring to, oddly enough, I've found quite a few black people who agree with this, they complain how many of the others of their skin color set a bad image for them, what you don't understand is that this is a defense for everyone who suffers from a stereotype. It is to blame the majority who set a bad image, not to blame all regardless.

Also, I'm not whining, I'm baffled to what could be gained from it not to mention it's a fail each time in which further baffles me. I'm simply seeking an answer to a baffling observation LOL


I think what you are refering to (I'll use my own demographic as an example) woman that won't do the heavy lifting, but then complain about woman being classified as weak. Here we have a case of a factual truth, women on the whole do not have as much upper body strength as men, that is sometimes used as an excuse why one can not do their part.

Then later, kicking back over brews, the other woman that busted a** all day, gets to listen to how woman are so weak and helpless, and natural gets pissed at both sides. The other female for perpetuating a negative stereotype for her own motives, and the males for being taken in by it.

Do I have that about right?
Well as far as women go, I prefer the one's I go with to be tough. Anyhow one of them beat my brother up for being a douchebag to me. Another stereotype concerning the female body is that they have more agility and flexibility, though these be positive in comparison to the upper body strength stereotype if all true then we really might as well stop saying either male or female are stronger or weaker because things even out quite well in terms of strengths and weaknesses concerning physical attributes. Anyhow, first and foremost it is stereotypes concerning negative actions I am referring to.
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Votaro
vwytche
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Votaro
No, I'm saying that it's everyone who is involved with the creation of a stereotype's fault while it is those who are of the category's responsibility to prove it incorrect.
You're right.

ATTENTION ASIANS. STOP DOING MATH. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE RACIST BELIEF THAT ALL ASIANS ARE GOOD AT MATH.

ATTENTION BLACKS. STOP PLAYING BASKETBALL. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE RACIST BELIEF THAT BLACKS ARE GOOD AT SPORTS.

HISPANICS, LISTEN UP. DON'T FALL ASLEEP. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE RACIST BELIEF THAT HISPANICS ARE LAZY AND LIKE THEIR NAPS.

HEY, VOTARO. STOP WHINING ABOUT PEOPLE "TWISTING YOUR WORDS" WHEN YOUR ARGUMENT IS JUST AS STUPID AS THE SIMPLIFIED VERSION WE ARE MAKING FUN OF. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DISPROVE THE ENTIRELY ACCURATE BELIEF THAT ALL VOTAROS ARE ******** MORONS WHO SHIFTS THE BLAME ONTO THE TARGETS OF RACIST STEREOTYPES RATHER THAN THE BIGOTS WHO BELIEVE IN THEM.
Not all stereotypes are negative but the negative ones are the ones I am mainly referring to, oddly enough, I've found quite a few black people who agree with this, they complain how many of the others of their skin color set a bad image for them, what you don't understand is that this is a defense for everyone who suffers from a stereotype. It is to blame the majority who set a bad image, not to blame all regardless.

Also, I'm not whining, I'm baffled to what could be gained from it not to mention it's a fail each time in which further baffles me. I'm simply seeking an answer to a baffling observation LOL


I think what you are refering to (I'll use my own demographic as an example) woman that won't do the heavy lifting, but then complain about woman being classified as weak. Here we have a case of a factual truth, women on the whole do not have as much upper body strength as men, that is sometimes used as an excuse why one can not do their part.

Then later, kicking back over brews, the other woman that busted a** all day, gets to listen to how woman are so weak and helpless, and natural gets pissed at both sides. The other female for perpetuating a negative stereotype for her own motives, and the males for being taken in by it.

Do I have that about right?
Well as far as women go, I prefer the one's I go with to be tough. Anyhow one of them beat my brother up for being a douchebag to me. Another stereotype concerning the female body is that they have more agility and flexibility, though these be positive in comparison to the upper body strength stereotype if all true then we really might as well stop saying either male or female are stronger or weaker because things even out quite well in terms of strengths and weaknesses concerning physical attributes. Anyhow, first and foremost it is stereotypes concerning negative actions I am referring to.


I used woman to avoid being called a bigot. I could have just as easily said blacks that complain about thief strerotypes from inside jail cells, or JWs that complain about Christians being called annoying, but that would have opened a can of worms.

Part of the problem as I see it is that we are all so paranoid about being PC is that is rapidly becoming impossable to even discuss the matter b/c you have to be hyperviglant never to step on any toes. There is a difference between a tereotype, and factual point, and an earbed reputation, period. To expand on my example, on average woman do have less upper body strength, verifiable fact. There are some woman that milk it, earned reputation. There are people that take these two and appliy it even where it doesn't apply, stereotype. But god help the man that says any of that, b/c he will automatically be an MCP.

And our culture does hedge towards male superiority, verafiable fact. Some guys eat it up and endulge in it, earned reputation. There are those that take these two and apply it even where it doesn't apply, stereotype. But god help me for having said all that, as a woman, b/c now I'm a feminazi. I'm willing to bet someone will be along before the end of the day (probabaly ban or DMJ) to prove my point for me. Or would have been if I hadn't tipped my hand just now. And even having done so, I'm still willing to bet there's going to be at least one person, so unable to resist the urge, thet they will do it, despite me making it clear that I'm counting on it for the proof I need.

So, how the heck can we work towards changing things when you can't even dicuss it w/o somebody playing the offense card. Look at the current situation on this very thread. Someone trying to twist your words into something to be offended by, even though they may or may not even be a member of the group you're "offending". Being offended has become a fad. Everybody's doing it. rolleyes
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vwytche
I'm willing to bet someone will be along before the end of the day (probabaly ban or DMJ) to prove my point for me. Or would have been if I hadn't tipped my hand just now.
Prove your point, how? By calling you a feminazi? I don't think I've ever applied that language towards anyone, and certainly not seriously.

I think the problem with your analysis is that people can talk about race and gender relations if they can communicate clearly and fluently about the subject. Possibly one issue is that I believe Votaro does not have English as a first language, and thus has difficulty with communicating clearly. Also pretty sure he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but whatever. The second issue is that I'm not offended, and I don't think deadman is either. If I was offended, I might be reacting to it with something other than humor. The point is to make fun of Votaro for saying something stupid.

Specifically, he said that the fact that people stereotype others "can't be changed" and so those stereotyped groups should change, and take it as the impetus for "self-betterment." This a stupid thing to say, because instead of trying to get at the problem (the fact that people make broad generalizations on the basis of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, et cetera) it says that that people who are the targets of this prejudice have to work twice as hard to disprove those bigots. Of course, it also assumes that stereotyping is always based on some sort of actual widespread characteristic, which isn't always true, or that it always focuses on a negative characteristic, which isn't true. That doesn't make the practice less harmful.

So, given all that, yes, Votaro did not exactly say it's the fault of blacks for creating the stereotype of blacks as criminals. However, he did say it's "based on observable data" and it should be their responsibility to disprove the notion, which makes it sound like stereotypes are presumptively valid, rather than despicable. So, there's a lot of material to make of that for jokes.

Turning to your analysis, a woman who is weak is just weak. She can be weak. She doesn't have to hit the gym five times a week to prove girls can be tough, too. I'm not sure why that's "perpetuating a negative stereotype for her own motives." Lots of people don't exercise and don't want to. I suppose you can call that an "earned reputation" if you like, though I'm not sure what the same woman complaining about the stereotype of weak women adds to the hypothetical. Seems like a valid complaint. The fact that a particular woman is weak doesn't change the fact that the generalization is unjust. I'm a white guy who can't dance; that doesn't change the fact that I know plenty of white guys who can dance and it is unfair to say they can't.
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If I was offended, I might be reacting to it with something other than humor. The point is to make fun of Votaro for saying something stupid.


So, you admit to using a serious subject matter, that represents a real social problem, of great importance to a great many people as a joke for your own amusment.

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