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Shokushu
Living by the Dao involves a lot of disconnect from the world around you.


The Dao is the world around you.

Shokushu
The impression I got from reading the book was that you don't pursue goals, you only ever take a small action if the perfect situation presents itself.


By "book", I assume you mean "Tao Te Ching". I can't remember whether this impression involves "Chuang Tzu" as well or not: you only ever take an action if the Tao takes an action as you; the Tao always acts in the perfect situation - sometimes it acts as you pursuing goals.
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We are not a group or a faction, nor do we read the same authors, pursue the same goals or hold the same truths. Some of us are sceptical, others believe in the paranormal. The only thing that 'connects' us is our lack of belief in a god or gods. Nothing more, nothing less.
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vwytche
he word atheism is broadly defined b/c atheism is not an orginized religion. It is unique amongst all the religions as being the only one in which the number of denominations is exactly equal to the number of members.

Atheism isn't a religion at all, just as theism isn't a religion. There are some atheists who follow a religion, LaVeyan Satanism being one of the more popular ones, though.


Of course it is. It fits the criteria.


re·li·gion
   [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA

noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

But I also understand that denying it's status as a religion is a very important part of it to some atheists. Therefore out of respect I won't push the point.
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vwytche
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vwytche
he word atheism is broadly defined b/c atheism is not an orginized religion. It is unique amongst all the religions as being the only one in which the number of denominations is exactly equal to the number of members.

Atheism isn't a religion at all, just as theism isn't a religion. There are some atheists who follow a religion, LaVeyan Satanism being one of the more popular ones, though.


Of course it is. It fits the criteria.


re·li·gion
   [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA

noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

But I also understand that denying it's status as a religion is a very important part of it to some atheists. Therefore out of respect I won't push the point.

It doesn't fit the criteria. As you quoted, religion is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe". However, atheism is a single belief: that there are no gods. Atheism is not a set of beliefs, as that is the only belief shared between all atheists.
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vwytche
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Atheism isn't a religion at all, just as theism isn't a religion. There are some atheists who follow a religion, LaVeyan Satanism being one of the more popular ones, though.


Of course it is. It fits the criteria.


re·li·gion
   [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA

noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

But I also understand that denying it's status as a religion is a very important part of it to some atheists. Therefore out of respect I won't push the point.

It doesn't fit the criteria. As you quoted, religion is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe". However, atheism is a single belief: that there are no gods. Atheism is not a set of beliefs, as that is the only belief shared between all atheists.


Further, atheism is lack of a belief.
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vwytche
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vwytche
he word atheism is broadly defined b/c atheism is not an orginized religion. It is unique amongst all the religions as being the only one in which the number of denominations is exactly equal to the number of members.

Atheism isn't a religion at all, just as theism isn't a religion. There are some atheists who follow a religion, LaVeyan Satanism being one of the more popular ones, though.


Of course it is. It fits the criteria.


re·li·gion
   [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA

noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

But I also understand that denying it's status as a religion is a very important part of it to some atheists. Therefore out of respect I won't push the point.

It doesn't fit the criteria. As you quoted, religion is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe". However, atheism is a single belief: that there are no gods. Atheism is not a set of beliefs, as that is the only belief shared between all atheists.


The fact that you would desperate clutch at one little semantic straw in an effort prove your point kind supports mine. I'm just saying.

Many atheist I've met are simply angry at or frustrated w/ God. This variety of atheism is the spiritual equivilent yelling, "I HATE YOU!" before slamming the bedroom door. The message; You pissed me off so I'm going to punish you by putting a wall between us. Anyone that is too passionate about their atheism is not an atheist. You don't get that angry at someone you don't believe in. That's just common sense.

I personaly don't believe what happenes in Hollywood or w/ the British royal family is of any real importance, but I don't demand that supermarkets remove People Magazine from their impulse counter, claimng that it's presence there constitutes ramming beliefs down my throat. I just pay for my groceries and get on with my life.

If you truly do not believe in something you are indifferent to it. A true atheist wouldn't care if the was a Bible in their hotel room. They'd just ignore the thing. Passionate defense of the right not to believe, and justifications and explanations as to why one does not believe are the actions of one with an agenga. Disbelief and idifference have no agenda. Things we do not believe are simply matters of no importance. "I have the right not to belive is" simply a rephrasing of "I don't believe and you can't make me!"

This is why I say that atheism is in fact a religion. B/c most atheist will defend it with a passion usually reserved for religion. But I'm just explaining my vewpoint here. Again, I don't want to cross the line into pushing it b/c that would not be respectful to others beliefs, to which they are perfectly entitled.
vwytche
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vwytche
Of course it is. It fits the criteria.


re·li·gion
   [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA

noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

But I also understand that denying it's status as a religion is a very important part of it to some atheists. Therefore out of respect I won't push the point.

It doesn't fit the criteria. As you quoted, religion is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe". However, atheism is a single belief: that there are no gods. Atheism is not a set of beliefs, as that is the only belief shared between all atheists.


The fact that you would desperate clutch at one little semantic straw in an effort prove your point kind supports mine.


One little semantic straw - as in, one part of one of the definitions of a word?
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vwytche
Song of the Century
Atheism isn't a religion at all, just as theism isn't a religion. There are some atheists who follow a religion, LaVeyan Satanism being one of the more popular ones, though.


Of course it is. It fits the criteria.


re·li·gion
   [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA

noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

But I also understand that denying it's status as a religion is a very important part of it to some atheists. Therefore out of respect I won't push the point.

It doesn't fit the criteria. As you quoted, religion is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe". However, atheism is a single belief: that there are no gods. Atheism is not a set of beliefs, as that is the only belief shared between all atheists.


Further, atheism is lack of a belief.


No it is a lack of belief in God, which carries with it the implication that something other than God must the cause, purpose and nature of the universe.
vwytche
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Further, atheism is lack of a belief.


No it is a lack of belief in God, which carries with it the implication that something other than God must the cause, purpose and nature of the universe.


One does not have to believe the universe has a cause, purpose, or nature.
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vwytche
The fact that you would desperate clutch at one little semantic straw in an effort prove your point kind supports mine. I'm just saying.

I'm pointing out a definition: a single belief is not a set of beliefs. If you think otherwise, go ahead and try proving it.

Quote:
Many atheist I've met are simply angry at or frustrated w/ God. This variety of atheism is the spiritual equivilent yelling, "I HATE YOU!" before slamming the bedroom door. The message; You pissed me off so I'm going to punish you by putting a wall between us. Anyone that is too passionate about their atheism is not an atheist. You don't get that angry at someone you don't believe in. That's just common sense.

Some can stop believing in God quite easily after they become angry. However, I did not think we were discussing why people came to atheism at all...

Quote:
I personaly don't believe what happenes in Hollywood or w/ the British royal family is of any real importance, but I don't demand that supermarkets remove People Magazine from their impulse counter, claimng that it's presence there constitutes ramming beliefs down my throat. I just pay for my groceries and get on with my life.

I fail to see what this metaphor is referencing, your point is not very clear...

Quote:
If you truly do not believe in something you are indifferent to it. A true atheist wouldn't care if the was a Bible in their hotel room. They'd just ignore the thing. Passionate defense of the right not to believe, and justifications and explanations as to why one does not believe are the actions of one with an agenga. Disbelief and idifference have no agenda. Things we do not believe are simply matters of no importance. "I have the right not to belive is" simply a rephrasing of "I don't believe and you can't make me!"

If I put the Quran in all hotel rooms and a Christian complains that it's not a Bible, does this mean that they're not a true Christian?

One can feel strongly about there not being a deity without being hateful.

Quote:
This is why I say that atheism is in fact a religion. B/c most atheist will defend it with a passion usually reserved for religion. But I'm just explaining my vewpoint here. Again, I don't want to cross the line into pushing it b/c that would not be respectful to others beliefs, to which they are perfectly entitled.

Passion is not "a set of beliefs", nor do I see how it is a belief at all.

You have done nothing to defend your point. Atheism is the lack of belief in a god, which can extend into belief in no god, depending on how picky you are with wording. This is a single belief and thus not a set of beliefs, making it not a religion.
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vwytche
Of course it is. It fits the criteria.


re·li·gion
   [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA

noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

But I also understand that denying it's status as a religion is a very important part of it to some atheists. Therefore out of respect I won't push the point.

It doesn't fit the criteria. As you quoted, religion is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe". However, atheism is a single belief: that there are no gods. Atheism is not a set of beliefs, as that is the only belief shared between all atheists.


The fact that you would desperate clutch at one little semantic straw in an effort prove your point kind supports mine.


One little semantic straw - as in, one part of one of the definitions of a word?


Yes, especially since masic mathmatics teaches us that a set or subset need not have a of greater than zero to be considered a set or subset. Attempting the discredit the entire definition by calling attention to one belief as apposed to set of beliefs seems to me to be more of a grasp than a valid point. One belief is still a set of beliefs. It is simply a set with a value of one.
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Further, atheism is lack of a belief.


No it is a lack of belief in God, which carries with it the implication that something other than God must the cause, purpose and nature of the universe.


One does not have to believe the universe has a cause, purpose, or nature.


Of course one does not HAVE to, but in my experience most do. Even if one does not believe in a purpose for the universe it is sort of hard to escape the nature and cause of it. If the universe did not have a cause, how is it even here?
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vwytche
The fact that you would desperate clutch at one little semantic straw in an effort prove your point kind supports mine. I'm just saying.

I'm pointing out a definition: a single belief is not a set of beliefs. If you think otherwise, go ahead and try proving it.

Quote:
Many atheist I've met are simply angry at or frustrated w/ God. This variety of atheism is the spiritual equivilent yelling, "I HATE YOU!" before slamming the bedroom door. The message; You pissed me off so I'm going to punish you by putting a wall between us. Anyone that is too passionate about their atheism is not an atheist. You don't get that angry at someone you don't believe in. That's just common sense.

Some can stop believing in God quite easily after they become angry. However, I did not think we were discussing why people came to atheism at all...

Quote:
I personaly don't believe what happenes in Hollywood or w/ the British royal family is of any real importance, but I don't demand that supermarkets remove People Magazine from their impulse counter, claimng that it's presence there constitutes ramming beliefs down my throat. I just pay for my groceries and get on with my life.

I fail to see what this metaphor is referencing, your point is not very clear...

Quote:
If you truly do not believe in something you are indifferent to it. A true atheist wouldn't care if the was a Bible in their hotel room. They'd just ignore the thing. Passionate defense of the right not to believe, and justifications and explanations as to why one does not believe are the actions of one with an agenga. Disbelief and idifference have no agenda. Things we do not believe are simply matters of no importance. "I have the right not to belive is" simply a rephrasing of "I don't believe and you can't make me!"

If I put the Quran in all hotel rooms and a Christian complains that it's not a Bible, does this mean that they're not a true Christian?

One can feel strongly about there not being a deity without being hateful.

Quote:
This is why I say that atheism is in fact a religion. B/c most atheist will defend it with a passion usually reserved for religion. But I'm just explaining my vewpoint here. Again, I don't want to cross the line into pushing it b/c that would not be respectful to others beliefs, to which they are perfectly entitled.

Passion is not "a set of beliefs", nor do I see how it is a belief at all.

You have done nothing to defend your point. Atheism is the lack of belief in a god, which can extend into belief in no god, depending on how picky you are with wording. This is a single belief and thus not a set of beliefs, making it not a religion.


I have already discussed in another post that a set does not require a value of greater than zero in order to be considered a set. Therefore, a set w/ a value of one is still a set.

The point of my metaphor is that my lack of belief makes me indifferent. If I passionatley pursued removal of the magazine that would clearly indicate that, despite my claim of lack of believe, that I in actuality found it very important, to the point of feeling th eneed to fight against it. Since my lack of belief is genuine, I simply ignore it. It is of no importance. Does that makeit more clear?

Complaining that one's prefred text was not made available is not the same as complaining about the presence of an un-needed text. One may may have no use of the phone book either, but I've never heard of anyone complaining about it's presence in the room. If it is not needed it is simply ignored. Again, a true atiest would simply ignore an uneeded book. Complaining of it's presence implies strong beliefs. Beliefs deeply felt enough to fight for passionately.

I never said passion was belief. I said belief inspires great passion. Lack of belief simply leads to indifference.

Religions need not be about God. If I may refer back to the def, it doesn't reference God, but rather the nature, cause and purpose of the universe. There are plenty who worship the almighty dollar, or follow the great god science.

I have actually done plenty to defend my point. You are free to see it or disregard it as you see fit. But simply disregarding it does not equate to invalidating it.
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vwytche
I have already discussed in another post that a set does not require a value of greater than zero in order to be considered a set. Therefore, a set w/ a value of one is still a set.

So if I have one candy bar, I have a set of candy bars?

We're talking about the regular use of the word set, not the mathematical use. If you would like, we can use the term "group' instead.

Quote:
The point of my metaphor is that my lack of belief makes me indifferent. If I passionatley pursued removal of the magazine that would clearly indicate that, despite my claim of lack of believe, that I in actuality found it very important, to the point of feeling th eneed to fight against it. Since my lack of belief is genuine, I simply ignore it. It is of no importance. Does that makeit more clear?

What if you disagree with the message of the magazine and wish to make it no longer spread? If Oprah Winfrey wants National Enquirer to stop distributing in stores because it has a story about her being gay, does that mean that she is gay? or does that simply mean that she does not want people to think she's gay?

Quote:
Complaining that one's prefred text was not made available is not the same as complaining about the presence of an un-needed text. One may may have no use of the phone book either, but I've never heard of anyone complaining about it's presence in the room. If it is not needed it is simply ignored. Again, a true atiest would simply ignore an uneeded book. Complaining of it's presence implies strong beliefs. Beliefs deeply felt enough to fight for passionately.

Let me rephrase, then: If a Christian complained about having a Quran in a hotel room but did not complain about not having a Bible, what does that say to you? that they're not real Christians?

Quote:
I never said passion was belief. I said belief inspires great passion. Lack of belief simply leads to indifference.

It has never been proven that belief or lack of belief lead to passion or lack thereof. I hold beliefs, but I am not passionate about many of them.

Quote:
Religions need not be about God. If I may refer back to the def, it doesn't reference God, but rather the nature, cause and purpose of the universe. There are plenty who worship the almighty dollar, or follow the great god science.

I am fully aware that religions need not all be theistic.

Quote:
I have actually done plenty to defend my point. You are free to see it or disregard it as you see fit. But simply disregarding it does not equate to invalidating it.

Hence why I'm providing counterpoints.

In which you have still not proven that atheism is a religion, considering that it is a single belief and people may not be part of two religions at once, and some atheists are religious.
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vwytche
I have already discussed in another post that a set does not require a value of greater than zero in order to be considered a set. Therefore, a set w/ a value of one is still a set.

So if I have one candy bar, I have a set of candy bars?

We're talking about the regular use of the word set, not the mathematical use. If you would like, we can use the term "group' instead.

Quote:
The point of my metaphor is that my lack of belief makes me indifferent. If I passionatley pursued removal of the magazine that would clearly indicate that, despite my claim of lack of believe, that I in actuality found it very important, to the point of feeling th eneed to fight against it. Since my lack of belief is genuine, I simply ignore it. It is of no importance. Does that makeit more clear?

What if you disagree with the message of the magazine and wish to make it no longer spread? If Oprah Winfrey wants National Enquirer to stop distributing in stores because it has a story about her being gay, does that mean that she is gay? or does that simply mean that she does not want people to think she's gay?

Quote:
Complaining that one's prefred text was not made available is not the same as complaining about the presence of an un-needed text. One may may have no use of the phone book either, but I've never heard of anyone complaining about it's presence in the room. If it is not needed it is simply ignored. Again, a true atiest would simply ignore an uneeded book. Complaining of it's presence implies strong beliefs. Beliefs deeply felt enough to fight for passionately.

Let me rephrase, then: If a Christian complained about having a Quran in a hotel room but did not complain about not having a Bible, what does that say to you? that they're not real Christians?

Quote:
I never said passion was belief. I said belief inspires great passion. Lack of belief simply leads to indifference.

It has never been proven that belief or lack of belief lead to passion or lack thereof. I hold beliefs, but I am not passionate about many of them.

Quote:
Religions need not be about God. If I may refer back to the def, it doesn't reference God, but rather the nature, cause and purpose of the universe. There are plenty who worship the almighty dollar, or follow the great god science.

I am fully aware that religions need not all be theistic.

Quote:
I have actually done plenty to defend my point. You are free to see it or disregard it as you see fit. But simply disregarding it does not equate to invalidating it.

Hence why I'm providing counterpoints.

In which you have still not proven that atheism is a religion, considering that it is a single belief and people may not be part of two religions at once, and some atheists are religious.


Definition of GROUP

1 two or more figures forming a complete unit in a composition

2 a number of individuals assembled together or having some unifying relationship b: an assemblage of objects regarded as a unit


I can understand why you would prefer to use group b/c a group, by definition, would be supportive of your stance. However, one can not simply edit a citation to suit their purposes. If you would like to provide an alternative defintion from your own source we can do a comparative investigation, if you like. however, no I don't think I can be supportive of a request to simply edit my citation to your liking.

how are we not discussion a mathematical set? We are talking about the numerical value of one belief as apposed to more than than one belief, both of which are mathematical sets of differing value. What is the regular use of the word set? And more importantly, on what do you base you assertion that the definition was refering to this regular use an opposed to the mathematical one?

Disagreeing with the message would again imply that I place some importance on the information. I don't. I do not share the all too common addiction for knowing what is going on in lives of people I do not even know. I couldn't care less which of them is getting married, or divorced, expecting. I just do not believe it is as important as everyone makes it. I could care less what messages they send , b/c no one's gonna remeber it in a week whenthe new scandal hits. And when it does, I won't care about that one either. What Oprah does about things that effect her directly is her business. What does that have to do with me being disinterested in it due to a lack of belief in it's importance?

Your Christian analogy is becoming too convoluded to follow. It's this simple. Things we do not believe are simply ignored. Anyone that would complain about the presence of something they were not interested in has an agenda beyond disbelief. They want to be heard complaining. They want their right not to believe respected. If it doesn't matter, and they would rather get some sleep than yell at the desk clerk, than that person I can believe is a true athiest. The guy yelling at the desk clerk just wants to draw attention to himself as an athiest. That sort of effort does not indicate indifference.

I'm not saying all beliefs inspire passion. I believe in the tree in my front yard, but I certainlt wouldn't get in a fight about it. Deeply or dearly held beliefs generally do, however.

May I ask on what you base the statement that a person can not be part of two religions at the same time? I'm afraid I really must disagree with that.

I'm not trying to prove anyhting. As I said in the beginning that would be an ethical breach. I'm just talking about stuff, which are free to take anyway you like. If it reaches the point of offnding you please let me know. I have no wish to do so.

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