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Henry Hobo-Master
vamperus
Henry Hobo-Master
vamperus


I understand, I just get a bit peeved by Christians who go around spouting things about their religion without even reading their own Bible let alone the Old Testament. I think you're a Mormon though right? Don't you think of yourselves as Jews in the ethnic sense?


I wouldn't call myself Mormon. At least not anymore, or not yet.

And I don't necessarily understand how Mormons are Jews in the ethnic sense. Would you mind explaining?


This might be wrong but I read a blog about this woman who explained that a Jew came to America and uncovered the Book of Mormon, so ethnically they are Jewish but with a different set of beliefs. "The doctrines of the Latter Day Saint movement, commonly referred to as Mormonism, teach that its adherents are either direct descendants of the House of Israel, or are adopted into it."
Link


Ahh. Well, I have never heard about the Jew who uncovered the Book of Mormon (BOM). Joseph Smith, an American farm boy at age 17-25 found and translated the BOM. His family was very Christian, and he himself refers to his troubles with choosing a denomination before the BOM.

Ethnically, Mormons are not Jews. They are however, adopted into 1 of the 12 tribes of Israel. A patriarchal blessing is the only sure way to know which tribe a person belongs to (Many Mormons have these). It is believed that we all have some portion of the blood of the 12 tribes in us.

It is common for the white male who lives in America, to be of the tribe of Ephraim. The link may be able to describe the reason why they are Ephraim a bit better.

Long story short, Mormons are adopted into one of the tribes of Israel. There are quite a few "Jewish characteristics" about the LDS religion, especially the symbolic uses and references. Many people see it as a modernization of Christianity, rather than relate it to Judaism.

Also, you might be referring to the story OF the BOM, where a Jewish family (from Manasseh) came to the America's, and their decedents are often related to as the current "Native Americans" (which is only a belief). That would make more sense. Mormons often say that after Christ was resurrected, Christ went and visited his "Lost sheep" (I believe that is how the NT lists it as). The lost sheep are the other descendants of the 12 lost tribes. Supposedly Christ came to the Americas and every other place where the blood had been transferred.


Ah, Okay, I don't know much about Mormonism, I have mostly just studied Christianity, and my religion Judaism, I'm starting to learn about Islam now. There's still a lot I need to learn ^.^
Masrur Fanalis's avatar

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Henry Hobo-Master
vamperus
Henry Hobo-Master
Nobody said women and men were equal here.

Edit: OT doesn't matter as much. NT is more important, given that the Mosaic laws were abolished by Christ apparently.

Jesus was not against the OT or Torah, he had a Passover Seder before he was crucified according to the Gospels, Jesus did not want people following what the Rabbis called the Oral Law, or Oral Torah. It was taught that on mount Sinai G-d gave Moses two Torahs one written the other oral, Jesus didn't believe the Oral Torah should be taught, so he didn't teach it, but he was not against the Torah itself.

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

Leviticus 3:17 "It is a law forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.."

Leviticus 6:18 "it is a permanent law throughout all your generations.."

Leviticus 6:22 "by an eternal ordinance it shall be entirely offered.."

Leviticus 7:36 "it is an eternal law for their generations."

Leviticus 16:34 "Now this is to you an everlasting ordinance.."

Leviticus 16:29 "This is to you a permanent law.."

Leviticus 17:7 "This is to them for an everlasting law in all their generations.."

Leviticus 23:14 "is to you a perpetual ordinance in all your dwelling places throughout your generations.."

Numbers 15:15 "As for the community (of Israel), there shall be one law for you and for the one who converted and joined with you; An eternal Law throughout your generations, as you are, so shall the convert be before the ALL-TRANSCENDENT One."

Numbers 19:21 "So it is a law forever for them.."

Psalm 119:44 "So I will keep Your Torah - continually forever and ever."


Abolish... Fulfill, it doesn't really make that much of a difference for me. All I know is that if the laws/rules were not changed, then we still couldn't eat specific types of meat. And living sacrifices would needed to be made.

Things change, and the OT is old.

Have we met before? .__.
Annoying Zetsu
Henry Hobo-Master
vamperus
Henry Hobo-Master
Nobody said women and men were equal here.

Edit: OT doesn't matter as much. NT is more important, given that the Mosaic laws were abolished by Christ apparently.

Jesus was not against the OT or Torah, he had a Passover Seder before he was crucified according to the Gospels, Jesus did not want people following what the Rabbis called the Oral Law, or Oral Torah. It was taught that on mount Sinai G-d gave Moses two Torahs one written the other oral, Jesus didn't believe the Oral Torah should be taught, so he didn't teach it, but he was not against the Torah itself.

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

Leviticus 3:17 "It is a law forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.."

Leviticus 6:18 "it is a permanent law throughout all your generations.."

Leviticus 6:22 "by an eternal ordinance it shall be entirely offered.."

Leviticus 7:36 "it is an eternal law for their generations."

Leviticus 16:34 "Now this is to you an everlasting ordinance.."

Leviticus 16:29 "This is to you a permanent law.."

Leviticus 17:7 "This is to them for an everlasting law in all their generations.."

Leviticus 23:14 "is to you a perpetual ordinance in all your dwelling places throughout your generations.."

Numbers 15:15 "As for the community (of Israel), there shall be one law for you and for the one who converted and joined with you; An eternal Law throughout your generations, as you are, so shall the convert be before the ALL-TRANSCENDENT One."

Numbers 19:21 "So it is a law forever for them.."

Psalm 119:44 "So I will keep Your Torah - continually forever and ever."


Abolish... Fulfill, it doesn't really make that much of a difference for me. All I know is that if the laws/rules were not changed, then we still couldn't eat specific types of meat. And living sacrifices would needed to be made.

Things change, and the OT is old.

Have we met before? .__.


Probably not. I started this account maybe a month or two ago.
Masrur Fanalis's avatar

Distinct Seeker

Henry Hobo-Master
Annoying Zetsu
Henry Hobo-Master
vamperus
Henry Hobo-Master
Nobody said women and men were equal here.

Edit: OT doesn't matter as much. NT is more important, given that the Mosaic laws were abolished by Christ apparently.

Jesus was not against the OT or Torah, he had a Passover Seder before he was crucified according to the Gospels, Jesus did not want people following what the Rabbis called the Oral Law, or Oral Torah. It was taught that on mount Sinai G-d gave Moses two Torahs one written the other oral, Jesus didn't believe the Oral Torah should be taught, so he didn't teach it, but he was not against the Torah itself.

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

Leviticus 3:17 "It is a law forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.."

Leviticus 6:18 "it is a permanent law throughout all your generations.."

Leviticus 6:22 "by an eternal ordinance it shall be entirely offered.."

Leviticus 7:36 "it is an eternal law for their generations."

Leviticus 16:34 "Now this is to you an everlasting ordinance.."

Leviticus 16:29 "This is to you a permanent law.."

Leviticus 17:7 "This is to them for an everlasting law in all their generations.."

Leviticus 23:14 "is to you a perpetual ordinance in all your dwelling places throughout your generations.."

Numbers 15:15 "As for the community (of Israel), there shall be one law for you and for the one who converted and joined with you; An eternal Law throughout your generations, as you are, so shall the convert be before the ALL-TRANSCENDENT One."

Numbers 19:21 "So it is a law forever for them.."

Psalm 119:44 "So I will keep Your Torah - continually forever and ever."


Abolish... Fulfill, it doesn't really make that much of a difference for me. All I know is that if the laws/rules were not changed, then we still couldn't eat specific types of meat. And living sacrifices would needed to be made.

Things change, and the OT is old.

Have we met before? .__.


Probably not. I started this account maybe a month or two ago.

Oh! I remember, we was discussing about the Trinity. I changed my name from Sadistic Stein razz
vamperus
Henry Hobo-Master
vamperus
Henry Hobo-Master
vamperus


I understand, I just get a bit peeved by Christians who go around spouting things about their religion without even reading their own Bible let alone the Old Testament. I think you're a Mormon though right? Don't you think of yourselves as Jews in the ethnic sense?


I wouldn't call myself Mormon. At least not anymore, or not yet.

And I don't necessarily understand how Mormons are Jews in the ethnic sense. Would you mind explaining?


This might be wrong but I read a blog about this woman who explained that a Jew came to America and uncovered the Book of Mormon, so ethnically they are Jewish but with a different set of beliefs. "The doctrines of the Latter Day Saint movement, commonly referred to as Mormonism, teach that its adherents are either direct descendants of the House of Israel, or are adopted into it."
Link


Ahh. Well, I have never heard about the Jew who uncovered the Book of Mormon (BOM). Joseph Smith, an American farm boy at age 17-25 found and translated the BOM. His family was very Christian, and he himself refers to his troubles with choosing a denomination before the BOM.

Ethnically, Mormons are not Jews. They are however, adopted into 1 of the 12 tribes of Israel. A patriarchal blessing is the only sure way to know which tribe a person belongs to (Many Mormons have these). It is believed that we all have some portion of the blood of the 12 tribes in us.

It is common for the white male who lives in America, to be of the tribe of Ephraim. The link may be able to describe the reason why they are Ephraim a bit better.

Long story short, Mormons are adopted into one of the tribes of Israel. There are quite a few "Jewish characteristics" about the LDS religion, especially the symbolic uses and references. Many people see it as a modernization of Christianity, rather than relate it to Judaism.

Also, you might be referring to the story OF the BOM, where a Jewish family (from Manasseh) came to the America's, and their decedents are often related to as the current "Native Americans" (which is only a belief). That would make more sense. Mormons often say that after Christ was resurrected, Christ went and visited his "Lost sheep" (I believe that is how the NT lists it as). The lost sheep are the other descendants of the 12 lost tribes. Supposedly Christ came to the Americas and every other place where the blood had been transferred.


Ah, Okay, I don't know much about Mormonism, I have mostly just studied Christianity, and my religion Judaism, I'm starting to learn about Islam now. There's still a lot I need to learn ^.^


I wish you the best of luck. I have been recently trying to understand more religions myself as well. I have a Hindu boss, so whenever we have a moment to converse, I usually ask him random things on my mind.

If you ever have any questions, just ask. I don't try to push religion, and I would think that I'm pretty fair when it comes facts and beliefs. I'll be around smile
Annoying Zetsu



Oh! I remember, we was discussing about the Trinity. I changed my name from Sadistic Stein razz


The trinity... I don't believe I recall this. What sort of arrogance did I mention during this conversation?
Masrur Fanalis's avatar

Distinct Seeker

Henry Hobo-Master
Annoying Zetsu



Oh! I remember, we was discussing about the Trinity. I changed my name from Sadistic Stein razz


The trinity... I don't believe I recall this. What sort of arrogance did I mention during this conversation?

Heres the link to it. Well, the conversation...
http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/morality-and-religion/theard-is-closed-discussion-is-a-failure/t.82259451_91/

The coversation starts on pg.6
Annoying Zetsu
Henry Hobo-Master
Annoying Zetsu



Oh! I remember, we was discussing about the Trinity. I changed my name from Sadistic Stein razz


The trinity... I don't believe I recall this. What sort of arrogance did I mention during this conversation?

Heres the link to it. Well, the conversation...
http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/morality-and-religion/theard-is-closed-discussion-is-a-failure/t.82259451_91/

The coversation starts on pg.6


Ahh yes. I always manage to get all worked up over silly things. I remember that.
Masrur Fanalis's avatar

Distinct Seeker

Henry Hobo-Master
Annoying Zetsu
Henry Hobo-Master
Annoying Zetsu



Oh! I remember, we was discussing about the Trinity. I changed my name from Sadistic Stein razz


The trinity... I don't believe I recall this. What sort of arrogance did I mention during this conversation?

Heres the link to it. Well, the conversation...
http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/morality-and-religion/theard-is-closed-discussion-is-a-failure/t.82259451_91/

The coversation starts on pg.6


Ahh yes. I always manage to get all worked up over silly things. I remember that.

"silly"?
o3o btw how is u?
Annoying Zetsu
Henry Hobo-Master
Annoying Zetsu
Henry Hobo-Master
Annoying Zetsu



Oh! I remember, we was discussing about the Trinity. I changed my name from Sadistic Stein razz


The trinity... I don't believe I recall this. What sort of arrogance did I mention during this conversation?

Heres the link to it. Well, the conversation...
http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/morality-and-religion/theard-is-closed-discussion-is-a-failure/t.82259451_91/

The coversation starts on pg.6


Ahh yes. I always manage to get all worked up over silly things. I remember that.

"silly"?
o3o btw how is u?


I'm good, I'm good.

Just lurking a bit.

I thought it was silly. I act really strange sometimes, and that conversation was the perfect example.
Masrur Fanalis's avatar

Distinct Seeker

Henry Hobo-Master
Annoying Zetsu
Henry Hobo-Master
Annoying Zetsu
Henry Hobo-Master
Annoying Zetsu



Oh! I remember, we was discussing about the Trinity. I changed my name from Sadistic Stein razz


The trinity... I don't believe I recall this. What sort of arrogance did I mention during this conversation?

Heres the link to it. Well, the conversation...
http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/morality-and-religion/theard-is-closed-discussion-is-a-failure/t.82259451_91/

The coversation starts on pg.6


Ahh yes. I always manage to get all worked up over silly things. I remember that.

"silly"?
o3o btw how is u?


I'm good, I'm good.

Just lurking a bit.

I thought it was silly. I act really strange sometimes, and that conversation was the perfect example.

Thats good to hear. Whats so silly about it? o3o
rmcdra's avatar

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vamperus

What I'm saying is the Torah laws never changed, they are for all time. Jesus didn't take away anything, he just emphasized to the Gentiles the message of Moses, it wasn't until Jesus died and his disciples started preaching that the Torah was not needed anymore by Christians. Even the Tanakh says G-d does not desire sacrifices, he wants a sincere acknowledgment of wrong doing, and only after atoning for your sins are you forgiven. The Gentiles never had to follow these laws, they were never required to obey the 613 commandments, only the ten that Jesus taught, but really Moses taught that the Gentiles only had to follow the 7 Noahide laws. These are what the OT tells you to do:

1.Idolatry is forbidden. Man is commanded to believe in the One G-d alone and worship only Him.

2.Incestuous and adulterous relations are forbidden. Human beings are not sexual objects, nor is pleasure the ultimate goal of life.

3.Murder is forbidden. The life of a human being, formed in G-d's image, is sacred.

4.Cursing the name of G-d is forbidden. Besides honoring and respecting G-d, we learn from this precept that our speech must be sanctified, as that is the distinctive sign which separated man from the animals.

5.Theft is forbidden. The world is not ours to do with as we please.

6.Eating the flesh of a living animal is forbidden. This teaches us to be sensitive to cruelty to animals. (This was commanded to Noah for the first time along with the permission of eating meat. The rest were already given to Adam in the Garden of Eden.)

7.Mankind is commanded to establish courts of justice and a just social order to enforce the first six laws and enact any other useful laws or customs.

If you follow these, then you are still following the OT and it is still very much in use, not at all "old" in that it is not valid.
The distinction of abolish/fulfilled comes from two different philosophies in the development of Christianity. You had Jewish/Torah-observing Christians who held that the all the laws of Moses were still necessary and valid, thus Jesus "fulfilled" the requirements of the law. They held that the laws of Moses were still necessary to observe as long as they did not prevent you from being "loving" (agape) toward others. Observance of ritual is still necessary but compassion toward others takes precedence. The other half of Christianity were Gentile/non-Torah-observing Christians. They held that the Laws of Moses were abolished, meaning that the Laws of Moses, excluding the 10 commandments, (since they didn't believe those to be an invention of Moses) no longer applied to anyone thus it was unnecessary to follow them. They held that all the Laws of Moses and the rituals, on their own did not make one a more "loving" (agape) person so there was no need to follow and observe them and that the Jewish Christians that encouraged such observance were doing a great disservice to Christ. Eventually you get a third group in the mix, the Torah-observing-Gentile Christians who basically act as a middle ground between the two groups. The book of Acts pretty much illustrates their stance and how they tried to illustrate similarities between the two groups to promote union and compromise.
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Henry Hobo-Master
Nobody said women and men were equal here.

Edit: OT doesn't matter as much. NT is more important, given that the Mosaic laws were abolished by Christ apparently.
Nosir. The correct word in most bibles here is FULFILLED. Not ABOLISHED.
dh8d1
Henry Hobo-Master
Nobody said women and men were equal here.

Edit: OT doesn't matter as much. NT is more important, given that the Mosaic laws were abolished by Christ apparently.
Nosir. The correct word in most bibles here is FULFILLED. Not ABOLISHED.

Yes, someone else corrected me before you did. Although I'm kinda disappointed that you didn't read the past comments left by me and this other person. You might have learned something.

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