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Chieftain Twilight
I always found that the Jedi claim "there is no ignorance, there is knowledge" was a perfect example of their self-righteousness and hypocrisy.

Really? Because I see it as a request to learn as much as possible, and don't go all I'M SMART! I'M SMART! I'M SMART!"

Never claim knowledge, only seek knowledge.
Chieftain Twilight
I always found that the Jedi claim "there is no ignorance, there is knowledge" was a perfect example of their self-righteousness and hypocrisy.


How so?

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson
"There is no ignorance, there is knowledge" is an attempt to set the goal of focusing on constant learning. In reality everyone will always hold some level of ignorance since ignorance is merely a lack of education and it is possible to be uneducated in specific fields. For example, I may always be ignorant of the theories of time travel, but that doesn't mean I won't get a master's degree or phd someday.


I thought it was highlighting that ignorance is a lack of something - and hence an interpretation - not a thing in itself.
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Lord Kilo Von Mortenson
"There is no ignorance, there is knowledge" is an attempt to set the goal of focusing on constant learning. In reality everyone will always hold some level of ignorance since ignorance is merely a lack of education and it is possible to be uneducated in specific fields. For example, I may always be ignorant of the theories of time travel, but that doesn't mean I won't get a master's degree or phd someday.


I thought it was highlighting that ignorance is a lack of something - and hence an interpretation - not a thing in itself.


I also said it is open to interpretation. Differently people are bound to see it differently and that is why I enjoy discussing this. I like your interpretation, that makes sense too. Either way it points to the goal of gaining knowledge and filling the void of ignorance.
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Lord Kilo Von Mortenson
"There is no ignorance, there is knowledge" is an attempt to set the goal of focusing on constant learning. In reality everyone will always hold some level of ignorance since ignorance is merely a lack of education and it is possible to be uneducated in specific fields. For example, I may always be ignorant of the theories of time travel, but that doesn't mean I won't get a master's degree or phd someday.


I thought it was highlighting that ignorance is a lack of something - and hence an interpretation - not a thing in itself.


I also said it is open to interpretation.


I be not ignorant of that.
- ninja

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson
I like your interpretation, that makes sense too. Either way it points to the goal of gaining knowledge and filling the void of ignorance.


Not under my interpretation.
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Lord Kilo Von Mortenson


Here is my interpretation of the Sith Code and why I disagree with it.

"Peace is a lie, there is only passion."
I interpret "peace" as referring to inner peace, just as I do for the Jedi Code. By that interpretation this line is wrong and just about any Buddhist, Taoist, or other Spiritualist would likely agree.


but Peace is a lie, both inwardly and outwardly. it is something that never realy lasts. and to pursue Peace is to forgo all the challenges that can lead one to growth and improvement. Peace is a state of stagnation, and one which is ultimately futile.

Quote:

"Through passion I gain strength."
If we interpret "passion" as a strong emotion then no, not necessarily. Strong emotions can lead to mistakes, lack of focus, and thus weakness if not properly controlled.


it is possible to lose focus, yes; I think that was well illustrated in the Star Wars fiction. but the Passion DOES in fact lead to Strength. it is when we have a goal, and are determined to meet that goal, that we are the most likely to achieve that goal. we will do whatever we have to, and won't give up. it is only a first step, but it may be the most important.

Quote:

"Through strength I gain power."
In this line it depends on how we define "power." Due to the word "strength" being used here I interpret this as meaning controlling others. "Power" referring to physical prowess would be redundant. In which case no, in the modern day intelligence is more highly valued and strength can be overthrown with firepower (if referring to physical) or witty remarks from intelligent people (if referring to non-physical).


you are not understanding what Power refers to at all here, then. true Power is Power over the Self; not over others. it is as you said above, that if we are not in control of ourselves we lack focus, and thus we become weak. our Passion gives us Strength in the form of a goal and determination to reach that goal; if we are truely determined then we won't let anything get in our way -- including ourselves. we have to control ourselves in order to have the Power to reach our goals.

Quote:

"Through power I gain victory."
I have to wonder what kind of victory this refers to, I'm honestly not sure how to interpret this line. Enough power of any kind can ensure victory, so this may be the only line I agree with.


that Power we gained means that we will achieve what we set out to; hence, Victory. this is also very much a Natural Selection moment, because whoever wants what they want the most, and has the most Power, is the most fit to achieve that goal in all aspects of existence (Body, Mind and Soul) will win. conflict breeds the most fit.

Quote:

"Through Victory my bonds are broken."
Again this depends on the interpretation of victory, however I don't believe victory is the only way to break bonds. Since this depends on the interpretation of victory the interpretation of bonds is also up in the air.


the idea is that Victory is the moment of being set free, of breaking one's own bonds. when we are able to achieve our goals, our every goal, we are free. we are free from the idea that we can't win, we are free from the restrictions anyone would impose on use. only WE are in charge of our own lives, because we are Powerful. I am Powerful, and becoming more Powerful every time I gain more control over myself. the more in control of myself I am, the closer I am to freedom.

Quote:

"The Force shall set me free."
Ok, so I agree with two lines and depending on the interpretation of the previous line possibly three.


it realy can all be according to interpretation. but many people don't understand the Sith Code, not nearly as much as even they think that they do.
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Chieftain Twilight
I always found that the Jedi claim "there is no ignorance, there is knowledge" was a perfect example of their self-righteousness and hypocrisy.

Really? Because I see it as a request to learn as much as possible, and don't go all I'M SMART! I'M SMART! I'M SMART!"

Never claim knowledge, only seek knowledge.


hm.... I suppose. I would certainly like that better. still, the way it's worded, and the way that some Jedi in the fiction (and even some in Jedi Realism forums I've been in) bothered me because it seemed that they would rather ignore the existence of ignorance (unless it suited their purposes to point out someone else' perceived ignorance). you can see my point now, given that experience?
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Chieftain Twilight
I always found that the Jedi claim "there is no ignorance, there is knowledge" was a perfect example of their self-righteousness and hypocrisy.


How so?



I answered above, as a response to Xiam. 3nodding you are welcome to consider it equally addressed to you.
Chieftain Twilight
Lucky~9~Lives
Chieftain Twilight
I always found that the Jedi claim "there is no ignorance, there is knowledge" was a perfect example of their self-righteousness and hypocrisy.


How so?



I answered above, as a response to Xiam. 3nodding you are welcome to consider it equally addressed to you.


Thank you.
- heart
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Chieftain Twilight


but Peace is a lie, both inwardly and outwardly. it is something that never realy lasts. and to pursue Peace is to forgo all the challenges that can lead one to growth and improvement. Peace is a state of stagnation, and one which is ultimately futile.

I don't see how peace is a lie. Outwardly, look at the depths of Africa. There is a tribe called bushmen (by outsiders, self-proclaimed name unknown) who have been observed although never interfered with. They live in peace. Buddhists also live in peace, harming none and having the goal of ending suffering. Nothing lasts forever. Even passion eventually burns out. The fact that it exists, however temporary, proves that it is a truth. Learning to maintain peace both inwardly and outwardly is a goal.

Chieftain Twilight
it is possible to lose focus, yes; I think that was well illustrated in the Star Wars fiction. but the Passion DOES in fact lead to Strength. it is when we have a goal, and are determined to meet that goal, that we are the most likely to achieve that goal. we will do whatever we have to, and won't give up. it is only a first step, but it may be the most important.


Honestly, I have won more fights by taking advantage of my opponent's passions than by feeding on my own passion. Relying on passion makes it easier to be taunted into making mistakes. The reason the Jedi are against passion is the use of a clear mind. They prefer to be logical and analyze a situation. This makes it harder for them to be taunted. Anger leads to clumsiness in my experience.


Chieftain Twilight
you are not understanding what Power refers to at all here, then. true Power is Power over the Self; not over others. it is as you said above, that if we are not in control of ourselves we lack focus, and thus we become weak. our Passion gives us Strength in the form of a goal and determination to reach that goal; if we are truely determined then we won't let anything get in our way -- including ourselves. we have to control ourselves in order to have the Power to reach our goals.


That makes more sense. However I disagree with strength coming from passion for the reason explained previously.

Chieftain Twilight
that Power we gained means that we will achieve what we set out to; hence, Victory. this is also very much a Natural Selection moment, because whoever wants what they want the most, and has the most Power, is the most fit to achieve that goal in all aspects of existence (Body, Mind and Soul) will win. conflict breeds the most fit.


Seeing the level of technology we are at in the real world, I can't really believe in natural selection anymore. There isn't anything natural about living in the world we have. In some cases, maybe, but often it seems victory goes to whoever is the most greedy, most violent, or otherwise negative in behavior. My morals dictate that I stand against such people alongside anyone else who is willing as well as anyone who's been taken advantage of. Is it then natural selection for who wins the war that inevitably follows?

A person who is stronger in body, mind, and soul, can still lose to someone who is stronger technologically.

Chieftain Twilight
the idea is that Victory is the moment of being set free, of breaking one's own bonds. when we are able to achieve our goals, our every goal, we are free. we are free from the idea that we can't win, we are free from the restrictions anyone would impose on use. only WE are in charge of our own lives, because we are Powerful. I am Powerful, and becoming more Powerful every time I gain more control over myself. the more in control of myself I am, the closer I am to freedom.


To me those bonds exist only in the mind and can be torn down faster through meditation and focus. Victory does not require conflict in this case.

Chieftain Twilight
it realy can all be according to interpretation. but many people don't understand the Sith Code, not nearly as much as even they think that they do.


That may be so for your interpretation, but if it is open to interpretation and they understand the basic point while still disagreeing do they really misunderstand? If so the same can probably be said for the other codes covering Jedi and Gray Jedi.
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Chieftain Twilight
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Chieftain Twilight
I always found that the Jedi claim "there is no ignorance, there is knowledge" was a perfect example of their self-righteousness and hypocrisy.


How so?



I answered above, as a response to Xiam. 3nodding you are welcome to consider it equally addressed to you.


Thank you.
- heart


not a problem. that's what this thread is here for. ^.^
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Chieftain Twilight
Xiam
Chieftain Twilight
I always found that the Jedi claim "there is no ignorance, there is knowledge" was a perfect example of their self-righteousness and hypocrisy.

Really? Because I see it as a request to learn as much as possible, and don't go all I'M SMART! I'M SMART! I'M SMART!"

Never claim knowledge, only seek knowledge.


hm.... I suppose. I would certainly like that better. still, the way it's worded, and the way that some Jedi in the fiction (and even some in Jedi Realism forums I've been in) bothered me because it seemed that they would rather ignore the existence of ignorance (unless it suited their purposes to point out someone else' perceived ignorance). you can see my point now, given that experience?
I learned at a place called "Jedi Sanctuary" originally. That site has gone down, but while I was there I believe I saw the best and worst sides of the Jedi along with possibly the Sith. The way those Sith spoke implied they were merely trolls taking up the title of Sith to mark themselves as being against the purpose of the site, at least for some of them. There were a couple who actually made some sense though. I can't remember any names.

Now I'm at the "Temple of the Jedi Force" and there I'm seeing the best side of the Jedi. Everyone seems humble and compassionate. Not arrogant and they are willing to admit when they don't know something, which means they admit ignorance when it is there.
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Chieftain Twilight


but Peace is a lie, both inwardly and outwardly. it is something that never realy lasts. and to pursue Peace is to forgo all the challenges that can lead one to growth and improvement. Peace is a state of stagnation, and one which is ultimately futile.

I don't see how peace is a lie. Outwardly, look at the depths of Africa. There is a tribe called bushmen (by outsiders, self-proclaimed name unknown) who have been observed although never interfered with. They live in peace. Buddhists also live in peace, harming none and having the goal of ending suffering. Nothing lasts forever. Even passion eventually burns out. The fact that it exists, however temporary, proves that it is a truth. Learning to maintain peace both inwardly and outwardly is a goal.

Chieftain Twilight
it is possible to lose focus, yes; I think that was well illustrated in the Star Wars fiction. but the Passion DOES in fact lead to Strength. it is when we have a goal, and are determined to meet that goal, that we are the most likely to achieve that goal. we will do whatever we have to, and won't give up. it is only a first step, but it may be the most important.


Honestly, I have won more fights by taking advantage of my opponent's passions than by feeding on my own passion. Relying on passion makes it easier to be taunted into making mistakes. The reason the Jedi are against passion is the use of a clear mind. They prefer to be logical and analyze a situation. This makes it harder for them to be taunted. Anger leads to clumsiness in my experience.


Chieftain Twilight
you are not understanding what Power refers to at all here, then. true Power is Power over the Self; not over others. it is as you said above, that if we are not in control of ourselves we lack focus, and thus we become weak. our Passion gives us Strength in the form of a goal and determination to reach that goal; if we are truely determined then we won't let anything get in our way -- including ourselves. we have to control ourselves in order to have the Power to reach our goals.


That makes more sense. However I disagree with strength coming from passion for the reason explained previously.

Chieftain Twilight
that Power we gained means that we will achieve what we set out to; hence, Victory. this is also very much a Natural Selection moment, because whoever wants what they want the most, and has the most Power, is the most fit to achieve that goal in all aspects of existence (Body, Mind and Soul) will win. conflict breeds the most fit.


Seeing the level of technology we are at in the real world, I can't really believe in natural selection anymore. There isn't anything natural about living in the world we have. In some cases, maybe, but often it seems victory goes to whoever is the most greedy, most violent, or otherwise negative in behavior. My morals dictate that I stand against such people alongside anyone else who is willing as well as anyone who's been taken advantage of. Is it then natural selection for who wins the war that inevitably follows?

A person who is stronger in body, mind, and soul, can still lose to someone who is stronger technologically.

Chieftain Twilight
the idea is that Victory is the moment of being set free, of breaking one's own bonds. when we are able to achieve our goals, our every goal, we are free. we are free from the idea that we can't win, we are free from the restrictions anyone would impose on use. only WE are in charge of our own lives, because we are Powerful. I am Powerful, and becoming more Powerful every time I gain more control over myself. the more in control of myself I am, the closer I am to freedom.


To me those bonds exist only in the mind and can be torn down faster through meditation and focus. Victory does not require conflict in this case.

Chieftain Twilight
it realy can all be according to interpretation. but many people don't understand the Sith Code, not nearly as much as even they think that they do.


That may be so for your interpretation, but if it is open to interpretation and they understand the basic point while still disagreeing do they really misunderstand? If so the same can probably be said for the other codes covering Jedi and Gray Jedi.


you seem to have so little faith in Nature and Natural Order. but the fact is, that humanity is not divorced from nature, and never will be -- no matter how hard it tries. and no matter what, teh Rule of Nature will always reign supreme.

he who is the strongest, fastest, toughest, most cunning, most alert, most aware and most charismatic will ultimately be the victor. he who has the Power over himself will always triumph. technology is great, but in the hands of an incompetent it won't be enough. there are many factors, and in the end Natural Selection wins out. nothing can stop the Rule of Nature.
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Xiam
Chieftain Twilight
I always found that the Jedi claim "there is no ignorance, there is knowledge" was a perfect example of their self-righteousness and hypocrisy.

Really? Because I see it as a request to learn as much as possible, and don't go all I'M SMART! I'M SMART! I'M SMART!"

Never claim knowledge, only seek knowledge.


hm.... I suppose. I would certainly like that better. still, the way it's worded, and the way that some Jedi in the fiction (and even some in Jedi Realism forums I've been in) bothered me because it seemed that they would rather ignore the existence of ignorance (unless it suited their purposes to point out someone else' perceived ignorance). you can see my point now, given that experience?
I learned at a place called "Jedi Sanctuary" originally. That site has gone down, but while I was there I believe I saw the best and worst sides of the Jedi along with possibly the Sith. The way those Sith spoke implied they were merely trolls taking up the title of Sith to mark themselves as being against the purpose of the site, at least for some of them. There were a couple who actually made some sense though. I can't remember any names.

Now I'm at the "Temple of the Jedi Force" and there I'm seeing the best side of the Jedi. Everyone seems humble and compassionate. Not arrogant and they are willing to admit when they don't know something, which means they admit ignorance when it is there.


sounds like some Jedi that I'd like to meet.

and aye, wise Sith seem to be a rare breed.... most of the ones even in Sith Realism forums (such as Order Of The Sith) are idiots who think they can do Force Lightning... there are still a handful of serious and Wise Sith there, though.
Chieftain Twilight
I have nothing against darwinism, except that I feel there are just a few flaws that should be tweaked.

Do tell.
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Chieftain Twilight
I have nothing against darwinism, except that I feel there are just a few flaws that should be tweaked.

Do tell.


mostly, I think that it's entirely possible that the evolution of different species was directed by the consciousnesses of the individual cells that made up a multicellular organism. it's a theory, but I think it makes sense, and there is some evidence to support it.

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