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Darwinists

I also don't see how Darwinism is a path/faith or even a philosophy of some sort. Isn't it just a way of saying those that accept evolution?

I think he means social darwinism. I'm probably wrong though. sweatdrop


I actually havn't heard that term before. could you enlighten me on it's definition?

Social darwinism is the concept of "survival of the fittest" being applied to nations. It was considered a justification during colonial times to colonize Africa, Americas, and Asia, whom the Europeans considered inferior. Colonies were viewed as a source of power, so those nations who had the most colonies were considered the "fittest." Social darwinism can also refer to a prejudice complex, where one's differences are used to justify a concept of superiority.

I am not particularly good at defining terms right off my head, but I think that's right. This link should probably help you out more than I can.

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Quote:
Darwinists

I also don't see how Darwinism is a path/faith or even a philosophy of some sort. Isn't it just a way of saying those that accept evolution?

I think he means social darwinism. I'm probably wrong though. sweatdrop


I actually havn't heard that term before. could you enlighten me on it's definition?

Social darwinism is the concept of "survival of the fittest" being applied to nations. It was considered a justification during colonial times to colonize Africa, Americas, and Asia, whom the Europeans considered inferior. Colonies were viewed as a source of power, so those nations who had the most colonies were considered the "fittest." Social darwinism can also refer to a prejudice complex, where one's differences are used to justify a concept of superiority.

I am not particularly good at defining terms right off my head, but I think that's right. This link should probably help you out more than I can.


ahh... well, I didn't mean that, but it actually would be included. I myself admit I feel like a social darwinist.

but regular darwinian theory is also a common shred view among Sith Realists.

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Xiam

Jedi here. I might be a bit off, but I think generally, we see the Force as something akin to a blend of the Tao and Ch'i. So for Jedi, it's more of a mutual partnership with the Force. We don't really seek out how things can benefit us, we pretty much just seek contentment with what is. I mean, sure, we do try for internal self-improvement, and we may take up a martial art for fitness or self-defense or protection of others, but generally the sentiment is that "Wars not make one great."

I think the Sith do take a more Darwinist approach. Survival of the fittest, and all that. I guess we just go in it for the benefit of all.

While what you say about "mutual partnership" is a much more expert perspective than what i have heard from others, I personally think force-sensitives in general "should" realize we are part of the Force, we are the Force (not to sound arrogant).
Yes it is true that the Jedi Order teaches about self-lessness, but I also believe the whole bit about self-improvement is a Jedi's cardinal sin. Knowledge must be sought, minds cultivated, so as to stay away from the "Dark Side". TO NOT STRAY is so stressed in their teachings, and to not cultivate passion is so necessary that it has unwittingly become the biggest fear of the Order.

When I say, rather than "look out" for our flaws, we should learn to live with them, one cannot realistically reach a state of perfection as a living-breathing organism. (Similar to how Buddhism teaches "liberation from desire" but one "desires Nirvana" wink .

If I may have an opinion about martial arts, I would say they are basically another form of meditation. Trouble will come to everyone in their lifetime, Jedi or Wookie (if I may throw in a little humor in), and learning self-defense seems quite rational, but I believe everyone is also capable of violence (even just to defend), a martial art should strive to teach us to discipline our animal nature, this violence, and even in the face of danger, to not let it get out of control.

Um... this may be the wrong source to cite, but I remember a dialogue from The Karate Kid... hang on, let me find it...

Ooh, first one!
Quote:
Daniel: Hey - you ever get into fights when you were a kid?
Miyagi: Huh - plenty.
Daniel: Yeah, but it wasn't like the problem I have, right?
Miyagi: Why? Fighting fighting. Same same.
Daniel: Yeah, but you knew karate.
Miyagi: Someone always know more.
Daniel: You mean there were times when you were scared to fight?
Miyagi: Always scare. Miyagi hate fighting.
Daniel: Yeah, but you like karate.
Miyagi: So?
Daniel: So, karate's fighting. You train to fight.
Miyagi: That what you think?
Daniel: [pondering] No.
Miyagi: Then why train?
Daniel: [thinks] So I won't have to fight.
Miyagi: [laughs] Miyagi have hope for you.


I see very little with what you said - though I would point out that knowledge is self-improvement, just not improvement of the Self. Maybe I used the wrong words there...

Hm... I suppose another way of looking at the difference between the Jedi and Sith would be to see their mental state as the difference between a calm sky, and stormy winds. Or perhaps to go with the water metaphor, a Jedi's mind is still and reflective water, and the Sith is white water - a rushing river, splashing over the rocks and banks, or perhaps stormy seas. Lots of power, little direction. A Jedi might have a little stream branching off, I assume some metaphor for focusing one's efforts and providing just a gentle touch.

I'm sure some Sith (and some Jedi) will disagree with this, as I'm sure there are patient Sith and plenty of stormy Jedi. I also tried to avoid the equivalence to stagnant water though, which kinda happened with the Jedi in Star Wars, mostly the prequels. xd

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Xiam
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Xiam

Jedi here. I might be a bit off, but I think generally, we see the Force as something akin to a blend of the Tao and Ch'i. So for Jedi, it's more of a mutual partnership with the Force. We don't really seek out how things can benefit us, we pretty much just seek contentment with what is. I mean, sure, we do try for internal self-improvement, and we may take up a martial art for fitness or self-defense or protection of others, but generally the sentiment is that "Wars not make one great."

I think the Sith do take a more Darwinist approach. Survival of the fittest, and all that. I guess we just go in it for the benefit of all.

While what you say about "mutual partnership" is a much more expert perspective than what i have heard from others, I personally think force-sensitives in general "should" realize we are part of the Force, we are the Force (not to sound arrogant).
Yes it is true that the Jedi Order teaches about self-lessness, but I also believe the whole bit about self-improvement is a Jedi's cardinal sin. Knowledge must be sought, minds cultivated, so as to stay away from the "Dark Side". TO NOT STRAY is so stressed in their teachings, and to not cultivate passion is so necessary that it has unwittingly become the biggest fear of the Order.

When I say, rather than "look out" for our flaws, we should learn to live with them, one cannot realistically reach a state of perfection as a living-breathing organism. (Similar to how Buddhism teaches "liberation from desire" but one "desires Nirvana" wink .

If I may have an opinion about martial arts, I would say they are basically another form of meditation. Trouble will come to everyone in their lifetime, Jedi or Wookie (if I may throw in a little humor in), and learning self-defense seems quite rational, but I believe everyone is also capable of violence (even just to defend), a martial art should strive to teach us to discipline our animal nature, this violence, and even in the face of danger, to not let it get out of control.

Um... this may be the wrong source to cite, but I remember a dialogue from The Karate Kid... hang on, let me find it...

Ooh, first one!
Quote:
Daniel: Hey - you ever get into fights when you were a kid?
Miyagi: Huh - plenty.
Daniel: Yeah, but it wasn't like the problem I have, right?
Miyagi: Why? Fighting fighting. Same same.
Daniel: Yeah, but you knew karate.
Miyagi: Someone always know more.
Daniel: You mean there were times when you were scared to fight?
Miyagi: Always scare. Miyagi hate fighting.
Daniel: Yeah, but you like karate.
Miyagi: So?
Daniel: So, karate's fighting. You train to fight.
Miyagi: That what you think?
Daniel: [pondering] No.
Miyagi: Then why train?
Daniel: [thinks] So I won't have to fight.
Miyagi: [laughs] Miyagi have hope for you.


I see very little with what you said - though I would point out that knowledge is self-improvement, just not improvement of the Self. Maybe I used the wrong words there...

Hm... I suppose another way of looking at the difference between the Jedi and Sith would be to see their mental state as the difference between a calm sky, and stormy winds. Or perhaps to go with the water metaphor, a Jedi's mind is still and reflective water, and the Sith is white water - a rushing river, splashing over the rocks and banks, or perhaps stormy seas. Lots of power, little direction. A Jedi might have a little stream branching off, I assume some metaphor for focusing one's efforts and providing just a gentle touch.

I'm sure some Sith (and some Jedi) will disagree with this, as I'm sure there are patient Sith and plenty of stormy Jedi. I also tried to avoid the equivalence to stagnant water though, which kinda happened with the Jedi in Star Wars, mostly the prequels. xd


I have to say you are mistaken. Jedi are not still and reflective... they are gentle, soft, but always flowing -- like a Spring or an Aquifer. and also, the Sith are generally not aimless.

a Sith without a Goal, without a Cause or some kind of Purpose is a very poor Sith. that's teh very downfall of Darth Bane, for example; he thought that Power was it's own end, and sought it for it's own sake. but on the other hand, the most successful Sith were those who had a Vision, or a Plan. they were patient, meticulous, focused and dedicated.

Darth Sidious made an Empire appear out of thin air by biding his time until he could transform the Republic; Darth Revan fought a war against the Jedi but preserved the structure of the Republic so that he would have his Empire without having to rebuild it from scratch; Darth Krayt revived the Sith Order from litterally a handful of surviving Sith and some old artifacts and swelled the numbers to match those of the Jedi in a matter of just a few years.

these Sith examples all had some grand design. they knew what they stood for, what they believed in. that's why they were successful.

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Nothing I could contribute at the moment, I'd just like to say I love the "Karate Kid" quote, Mr. Miyagi was such a sweet soul in my eyes.

At the moment, I am having a bit of inner-turmoil, nothing new. Usually calm down with a cigarette but I am trying to quit because it is doing "actual harm" to my health I believe. So I just have to bid my time and wait for these anxiety to go away. Listening to music, but sadly, music is such a two-sided element in my life. Indispensable nevertheless.

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Nothing I could contribute at the moment, I'd just like to say I love the "Karate Kid" quote, Mr. Miyagi was such a sweet soul in my eyes.

At the moment, I am having a bit of inner-turmoil, nothing new. Usually calm down with a cigarette but I am trying to quit because it is doing "actual harm" to my health I believe. So I just have to bid my time and wait for these anxiety to go away. Listening to music, but sadly, music is such a two-sided element in my life. Indispensable nevertheless.


oh, gods, I know what you mean.... sad I battle with anxiety often (I'm Paranoid Schizophrenic PTSD). it is quite a pain. I do hope you manage to find some peace of mind soon. try some honey and tea, if you can. smile it helps me without fail, every time.

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Nothing I could contribute at the moment, I'd just like to say I love the "Karate Kid" quote, Mr. Miyagi was such a sweet soul in my eyes.

At the moment, I am having a bit of inner-turmoil, nothing new. Usually calm down with a cigarette but I am trying to quit because it is doing "actual harm" to my health I believe. So I just have to bid my time and wait for these anxiety to go away. Listening to music, but sadly, music is such a two-sided element in my life. Indispensable nevertheless.


oh, gods, I know what you mean.... sad I battle with anxiety often (I'm Paranoid Schizophrenic PTSD). it is quite a pain. I do hope you manage to find some peace of mind soon. try some honey and tea, if you can. smile it helps me without fail, every time.

Always happy to count with you my friend.
Umm, perhaps another night, cannot get out of my room now. Besides, it's not something tormeting me as much as being tormented by a desire I have. It passes, but I cannot say when exactly.

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Nothing I could contribute at the moment, I'd just like to say I love the "Karate Kid" quote, Mr. Miyagi was such a sweet soul in my eyes.

At the moment, I am having a bit of inner-turmoil, nothing new. Usually calm down with a cigarette but I am trying to quit because it is doing "actual harm" to my health I believe. So I just have to bid my time and wait for these anxiety to go away. Listening to music, but sadly, music is such a two-sided element in my life. Indispensable nevertheless.


oh, gods, I know what you mean.... sad I battle with anxiety often (I'm Paranoid Schizophrenic PTSD). it is quite a pain. I do hope you manage to find some peace of mind soon. try some honey and tea, if you can. smile it helps me without fail, every time.

Always happy to count with you my friend.
Umm, perhaps another night, cannot get out of my room now. Besides, it's not something tormeting me as much as being tormented by a desire I have. It passes, but I cannot say when exactly.


heh. understood. trust me on that.

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Chieftain Twilight
Xiam
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Xiam

Jedi here. I might be a bit off, but I think generally, we see the Force as something akin to a blend of the Tao and Ch'i. So for Jedi, it's more of a mutual partnership with the Force. We don't really seek out how things can benefit us, we pretty much just seek contentment with what is. I mean, sure, we do try for internal self-improvement, and we may take up a martial art for fitness or self-defense or protection of others, but generally the sentiment is that "Wars not make one great."

I think the Sith do take a more Darwinist approach. Survival of the fittest, and all that. I guess we just go in it for the benefit of all.

While what you say about "mutual partnership" is a much more expert perspective than what i have heard from others, I personally think force-sensitives in general "should" realize we are part of the Force, we are the Force (not to sound arrogant).
Yes it is true that the Jedi Order teaches about self-lessness, but I also believe the whole bit about self-improvement is a Jedi's cardinal sin. Knowledge must be sought, minds cultivated, so as to stay away from the "Dark Side". TO NOT STRAY is so stressed in their teachings, and to not cultivate passion is so necessary that it has unwittingly become the biggest fear of the Order.

When I say, rather than "look out" for our flaws, we should learn to live with them, one cannot realistically reach a state of perfection as a living-breathing organism. (Similar to how Buddhism teaches "liberation from desire" but one "desires Nirvana" wink .

If I may have an opinion about martial arts, I would say they are basically another form of meditation. Trouble will come to everyone in their lifetime, Jedi or Wookie (if I may throw in a little humor in), and learning self-defense seems quite rational, but I believe everyone is also capable of violence (even just to defend), a martial art should strive to teach us to discipline our animal nature, this violence, and even in the face of danger, to not let it get out of control.

Um... this may be the wrong source to cite, but I remember a dialogue from The Karate Kid... hang on, let me find it...

Ooh, first one!
Quote:
Daniel: Hey - you ever get into fights when you were a kid?
Miyagi: Huh - plenty.
Daniel: Yeah, but it wasn't like the problem I have, right?
Miyagi: Why? Fighting fighting. Same same.
Daniel: Yeah, but you knew karate.
Miyagi: Someone always know more.
Daniel: You mean there were times when you were scared to fight?
Miyagi: Always scare. Miyagi hate fighting.
Daniel: Yeah, but you like karate.
Miyagi: So?
Daniel: So, karate's fighting. You train to fight.
Miyagi: That what you think?
Daniel: [pondering] No.
Miyagi: Then why train?
Daniel: [thinks] So I won't have to fight.
Miyagi: [laughs] Miyagi have hope for you.


I see very little with what you said - though I would point out that knowledge is self-improvement, just not improvement of the Self. Maybe I used the wrong words there...

Hm... I suppose another way of looking at the difference between the Jedi and Sith would be to see their mental state as the difference between a calm sky, and stormy winds. Or perhaps to go with the water metaphor, a Jedi's mind is still and reflective water, and the Sith is white water - a rushing river, splashing over the rocks and banks, or perhaps stormy seas. Lots of power, little direction. A Jedi might have a little stream branching off, I assume some metaphor for focusing one's efforts and providing just a gentle touch.

I'm sure some Sith (and some Jedi) will disagree with this, as I'm sure there are patient Sith and plenty of stormy Jedi. I also tried to avoid the equivalence to stagnant water though, which kinda happened with the Jedi in Star Wars, mostly the prequels. xd


I have to say you are mistaken. Jedi are not still and reflective... they are gentle, soft, but always flowing -- like a Spring or an Aquifer. and also, the Sith are generally not aimless.

a Sith without a Goal, without a Cause or some kind of Purpose is a very poor Sith. that's teh very downfall of Darth Bane, for example; he thought that Power was it's own end, and sought it for it's own sake. but on the other hand, the most successful Sith were those who had a Vision, or a Plan. they were patient, meticulous, focused and dedicated.

Darth Sidious made an Empire appear out of thin air by biding his time until he could transform the Republic; Darth Revan fought a war against the Jedi but preserved the structure of the Republic so that he would have his Empire without having to rebuild it from scratch; Darth Krayt revived the Sith Order from litterally a handful of surviving Sith and some old artifacts and swelled the numbers to match those of the Jedi in a matter of just a few years.

these Sith examples all had some grand design. they knew what they stood for, what they believed in. that's why they were successful.

Damn, I knew I should've mentioned a gentle stream.
I might identify. The closest religion I can think of that matches would be LaVeyan Satanism and I can identify with that.
Sounds like queer fantasy s**t.

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Xiam
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Xiam
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Xiam

Jedi here. I might be a bit off, but I think generally, we see the Force as something akin to a blend of the Tao and Ch'i. So for Jedi, it's more of a mutual partnership with the Force. We don't really seek out how things can benefit us, we pretty much just seek contentment with what is. I mean, sure, we do try for internal self-improvement, and we may take up a martial art for fitness or self-defense or protection of others, but generally the sentiment is that "Wars not make one great."

I think the Sith do take a more Darwinist approach. Survival of the fittest, and all that. I guess we just go in it for the benefit of all.

While what you say about "mutual partnership" is a much more expert perspective than what i have heard from others, I personally think force-sensitives in general "should" realize we are part of the Force, we are the Force (not to sound arrogant).
Yes it is true that the Jedi Order teaches about self-lessness, but I also believe the whole bit about self-improvement is a Jedi's cardinal sin. Knowledge must be sought, minds cultivated, so as to stay away from the "Dark Side". TO NOT STRAY is so stressed in their teachings, and to not cultivate passion is so necessary that it has unwittingly become the biggest fear of the Order.

When I say, rather than "look out" for our flaws, we should learn to live with them, one cannot realistically reach a state of perfection as a living-breathing organism. (Similar to how Buddhism teaches "liberation from desire" but one "desires Nirvana" wink .

If I may have an opinion about martial arts, I would say they are basically another form of meditation. Trouble will come to everyone in their lifetime, Jedi or Wookie (if I may throw in a little humor in), and learning self-defense seems quite rational, but I believe everyone is also capable of violence (even just to defend), a martial art should strive to teach us to discipline our animal nature, this violence, and even in the face of danger, to not let it get out of control.

Um... this may be the wrong source to cite, but I remember a dialogue from The Karate Kid... hang on, let me find it...

Ooh, first one!
Quote:
Daniel: Hey - you ever get into fights when you were a kid?
Miyagi: Huh - plenty.
Daniel: Yeah, but it wasn't like the problem I have, right?
Miyagi: Why? Fighting fighting. Same same.
Daniel: Yeah, but you knew karate.
Miyagi: Someone always know more.
Daniel: You mean there were times when you were scared to fight?
Miyagi: Always scare. Miyagi hate fighting.
Daniel: Yeah, but you like karate.
Miyagi: So?
Daniel: So, karate's fighting. You train to fight.
Miyagi: That what you think?
Daniel: [pondering] No.
Miyagi: Then why train?
Daniel: [thinks] So I won't have to fight.
Miyagi: [laughs] Miyagi have hope for you.


I see very little with what you said - though I would point out that knowledge is self-improvement, just not improvement of the Self. Maybe I used the wrong words there...

Hm... I suppose another way of looking at the difference between the Jedi and Sith would be to see their mental state as the difference between a calm sky, and stormy winds. Or perhaps to go with the water metaphor, a Jedi's mind is still and reflective water, and the Sith is white water - a rushing river, splashing over the rocks and banks, or perhaps stormy seas. Lots of power, little direction. A Jedi might have a little stream branching off, I assume some metaphor for focusing one's efforts and providing just a gentle touch.

I'm sure some Sith (and some Jedi) will disagree with this, as I'm sure there are patient Sith and plenty of stormy Jedi. I also tried to avoid the equivalence to stagnant water though, which kinda happened with the Jedi in Star Wars, mostly the prequels. xd


I have to say you are mistaken. Jedi are not still and reflective... they are gentle, soft, but always flowing -- like a Spring or an Aquifer. and also, the Sith are generally not aimless.

a Sith without a Goal, without a Cause or some kind of Purpose is a very poor Sith. that's teh very downfall of Darth Bane, for example; he thought that Power was it's own end, and sought it for it's own sake. but on the other hand, the most successful Sith were those who had a Vision, or a Plan. they were patient, meticulous, focused and dedicated.

Darth Sidious made an Empire appear out of thin air by biding his time until he could transform the Republic; Darth Revan fought a war against the Jedi but preserved the structure of the Republic so that he would have his Empire without having to rebuild it from scratch; Darth Krayt revived the Sith Order from litterally a handful of surviving Sith and some old artifacts and swelled the numbers to match those of the Jedi in a matter of just a few years.

these Sith examples all had some grand design. they knew what they stood for, what they believed in. that's why they were successful.

Damn, I knew I should've mentioned a gentle stream.


we live, we learn. smile

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I would like to disbar your original argument on Revan's philosophy and propose that Revan was a Grey Jedi, only marked as a sith for his actions against the Jedi rather than his actual Philosophy.

If you want to know more on Grey Jedi you should explore the methods Kreia and Jolee Bindo used in their adventures as force users.

The reason i must make this differentiation is that as a follower of some of revan's precepts i find it disingenuous to attribute the whole of his philosophy to any one of the two factions.

At best it's a splitting of hairs rather than an actual definition of his path.

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I would like to disbar your original argument on Revan's philosophy and propose that Revan was a Grey Jedi, only marked as a sith for his actions against the Jedi rather than his actual Philosophy.

If you want to know more on Grey Jedi you should explore the methods Kreia and Jolee Bindo used in their adventures as force users.

The reason i must make this differentiation is that as a follower of some of revan's precepts i find it disingenuous to attribute the whole of his philosophy to any one of the two factions.

At best it's a splitting of hairs rather than an actual definition of his path.


well, thing is, he was at one point a Sith. and not just any Sith, but a Dark Lord of the Sith. also, the fictional Order of Revan, a.k.a. the Revanite religious cult, was founded by Sith who worshipped Darth Revan. and finally, Revanite Realism is considered a branch of Sith Realism.

it's not to say that you are incorrect -- just that that is why I listed it as I did. yes, Revan was a Grey Jedi. but he also was Sith at one point. and furthermore, in the end, Revan was neither Jedi nor Sith, but something greater than both.

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stealthmongoose
I would like to disbar your original argument on Revan's philosophy and propose that Revan was a Grey Jedi, only marked as a sith for his actions against the Jedi rather than his actual Philosophy.

If you want to know more on Grey Jedi you should explore the methods Kreia and Jolee Bindo used in their adventures as force users.

The reason i must make this differentiation is that as a follower of some of revan's precepts i find it disingenuous to attribute the whole of his philosophy to any one of the two factions.

At best it's a splitting of hairs rather than an actual definition of his path.


well, thing is, he was at one point a Sith. and not just any Sith, but a Dark Lord of the Sith. also, the fictional Order of Revan, a.k.a. the Revanite religious cult, was founded by Sith who worshipped Darth Revan. and finally, Revanite Realism is considered a branch of Sith Realism.

it's not to say that you are incorrect -- just that that is why I listed it as I did. yes, Revan was a Grey Jedi. but he also was Sith at one point. and furthermore, in the end, Revan was neither Jedi nor Sith, but something greater than both.


Can i understand then that you're sampling from the revanite cult and their teachings more than the path of Revan himself? This is perfectly fine, by the way, as it actually reflects the reasons for why people follow his path of Sith realism.

I suppose the only point of contention i would have is in the calling of it as Sith Realism. I would sonner consider his realism a part of the Grey Jedi doctrine since it did not hold to the same degrees of implied suffering and sacrifice that most sith teachings do.

I'd say it is a tweaked Revanite version of Sith realism and should be considered sith for simplicity's sake, but overall i'd have to say that even within his own cult his teachings remained rather Grey.

Kreia, Jolee Bindo, and similar Jedi seem to walk Revan's path to a lesser extreme and with different goals. While sith lords and Jedi seem to take altogether different paths from the Greys altogether. This is only an observation though and i'd like to be corrected.

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