Sith Realism

[Trollzors Vader]

I'm always downright surprised what a wonderful work star wars has truly evolved into to touch peoples lives in such unexpected ways.

I had a question for the op, as to how you found it along the same lines as chaos magic. I would say it's not impossible for a practitioner of chaos magic to have the same philosophy on rare occasions, but the two wouldn't be related. That's like saying it can be related to humanity because it's possible for a human to hold these ideas, but isn't really related to them being a human.

[Chieftain Twilight]

Resonare Praeteriti

Being a LaVeyan Satanist, of course I identify highly with the Sith Code. Just look at how the Sith Code echoes some of the points of the Nine Satanic Statements:

Quote:

The Nine Satanic Statements

Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence.
Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams.
Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit.
Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates.
Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek.
Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires.
Satan represents man as just another animal (sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all fours), who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all.
Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification.
Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years.

My character's alignment in the 'Star Wars: The Old Republic' game is Revanite Sith. I employ a Machiavellian balance of harshness and kindness that brings me respect from both Sith and Jedi alike. It represents me pretty well, I'd say.

you are right, the Nine Satanic Statements do mirror the Sith Code pretty neatly. the only exceptions are the ones where LeVayan Satanism is being clearly defined as atheist. it's the only reason I'd be more closely associated with Sith than LeVayan Satanism.

also, Sith isn't an Alignment, nor is Revanite. Dark Side and Light Side are. you are on the Sith EMpire Faction, with a healthy balance of Light and Dark Side Alignment which falls in line with the Revanite Codes and have likely the Revanite Title. just to be clear.

[Chieftain Twilight]

CalledTheRaven

As a question for such thoughtful types, do any of you have opinions on either of these books?

The Jedi Path
The Book of Sith

I know a young man who it genuinely looking into both paths and was wondering if these seems like reasonable starting places?

excellent question to ask! personally, the only one I have even looked into was The Book of Sith, but I highly enjoyed what I read and recommend it. it has not only relevant information for studying the path, but also great insights into the minds of the characters who "wrote" in it (fictionally, of course).

[Chieftain Twilight]

Trollzors Vader

I'm always downright surprised what a wonderful work star wars has truly evolved into to touch peoples lives in such unexpected ways.

I had a question for the op, as to how you found it along the same lines as chaos magic. I would say it's not impossible for a practitioner of chaos magic to have the same philosophy on rare occasions, but the two wouldn't be related. That's like saying it can be related to humanity because it's possible for a human to hold these ideas, but isn't really related to them being a human.

well, to answer your question, I actually didn't say that the two are related or similar -- merely that there are quite a number of Chaos Magi who are also Sith Realists. I am one, one of the Masters at the forum I studied at is, and I have noticed a handful of others who are. that is all I meant; that Sith Realism is attractive to Satanists, Chaos Magi, etcetera.

[Trollzors Vader]

Chieftain Twilight

Trollzors Vader

I'm always downright surprised what a wonderful work star wars has truly evolved into to touch peoples lives in such unexpected ways.

I had a question for the op, as to how you found it along the same lines as chaos magic. I would say it's not impossible for a practitioner of chaos magic to have the same philosophy on rare occasions, but the two wouldn't be related. That's like saying it can be related to humanity because it's possible for a human to hold these ideas, but isn't really related to them being a human.

well, to answer your question, I actually didn't say that the two are related or similar -- merely that there are quite a number of Chaos Magi who are also Sith Realists. I am one, one of the Masters at the forum I studied at is, and I have noticed a handful of others who are. that is all I meant; that Sith Realism is attractive to Satanists, Chaos Magi, etcetera.

Ah fair enough I guess.

I can't say i would make much use of it myself... So now you found one who doesn't bother with any predetermined code... Come to think of it i don't bother with much at all.

[Beatus Sine Nomine]

Chieftain Twilight

Resonare Praeteriti

Being a LaVeyan Satanist, of course I identify highly with the Sith Code. Just look at how the Sith Code echoes some of the points of the Nine Satanic Statements:

Quote:

The Nine Satanic Statements

Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence.
Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams.
Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit.
Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates.
Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek.
Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires.
Satan represents man as just another animal (sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all fours), who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all.
Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification.
Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years.

My character's alignment in the 'Star Wars: The Old Republic' game is Revanite Sith. I employ a Machiavellian balance of harshness and kindness that brings me respect from both Sith and Jedi alike. It represents me pretty well, I'd say.

you are right, the Nine Satanic Statements do mirror the Sith Code pretty neatly. the only exceptions are the ones where LeVayan Satanism is being clearly defined as atheist. it's the only reason I'd be more closely associated with Sith than LeVayan Satanism.

also, Sith isn't an Alignment, nor is Revanite. Dark Side and Light Side are. you are on the Sith EMpire Faction, with a healthy balance of Light and Dark Side Alignment which falls in line with the Revanite Codes and have likely the Revanite Title. just to be clear.

True, I myself am more agnostic than atheist to tell the truth. I don't believe in gods, no, but I do believe we have forces at work in the universe and within us, much like the light side and the dark side of the Force. They are non-personified entities, raw energies which contradict each other, but at the same time need each other to survive. The reason I identify with LaVeyan Satanism is because...well, let's face it: people aren't going to take me seriously if I tell them my religion is from Star Wars. I can agree with the Sith belief, but to list it as my official belief system seems as if it would get me laughed right out of most situations.

And yes, that is what I meant. Though, I find it funny, I have more actions stacked on the light side than the dark side. Perhaps it's because the dark side's actions are so extreme, and I'm completely given to subtlety, level-headedness, and gaining allies wherever I can make them.

And yes, the Revanite title is one I'm quite pleased to say I hold. It's a favorite of mine.

[Rosemary_Red]

At first, I thought this was a topic about the Sikhism before re-reading and looking into your post with my full attention. sweatdrop

I must admit that I'm a bit intrigued that something pop culture like Star Wars could have this kind of effect on people. Personally, as an Atheist living in the southern united states, I think that it can be hard to express your beliefs to people that can understand, especially if they are radically different. Anyway, I respect your opinion of faith and I hope that it will lead you to good fortune and happiness. smile

[Xiam]

CalledTheRaven

So are there any other books or websites folks would recommend for more information on any of the force paths as actual spirituality?

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

I recommend the Temple of the Jedi Force for a Jedi path.

Oh, there are tons. Temple of the Jedi Order, Temple of the Jedi Force, Force Academy... uh... ah crud, I'm missing another big one. Knights of... someting... CRUD! I never visited, but I feel like a jerk for not knowing. They try to distance a bit from the word "Jedi" due to outsiders' assumptions that we're just geeky roleplayers.

Chieftain Twilight

CalledTheRaven

As a question for such thoughtful types, do any of you have opinions on either of these books?

The Jedi Path
The Book of Sith

I know a young man who it genuinely looking into both paths and was wondering if these seems like reasonable starting places?

excellent question to ask! personally, the only one I have even looked into was The Book of Sith, but I highly enjoyed what I read and recommend it. it has not only relevant information for studying the path, but also great insights into the minds of the characters who "wrote" in it (fictionally, of course).

It's about the same for The Jedi Path, too. I especially like the commentary written in the margins by Jedi, as if the book was a hand-me-down from Yoda to Dooku to Qui-Gon to Obi-Wan to Anakin to Asohka, then confiscated by Sidious, then evenoutally found again by Luke.

Resonare Praeteriti

True, I myself am more agnostic than atheist to tell the truth. I don't believe in gods, no, but I do believe we have forces at work in the universe and within us, much like the light side and the dark side of the Force. They are non-personified entities, raw energies which contradict each other, but at the same time need each other to survive. The reason I identify with LaVeyan Satanism is because...well, let's face it: people aren't going to take me seriously if I tell them my religion is from Star Wars. I can agree with the Sith belief, but to list it as my official belief system seems as if it would get me laughed right out of most situations.

That's pretty much how I settled... sort of. I mean, basically I wasn't happy with the way people depict "God" (anthropomorphic entity basically placed as King of the Cosmos? Oh hell no), but I could fully understand the way Yoda talked about the Force in The Empire Strikes Back.

Depending on the people I'm around at any given time, though, I might just say "pantheist." The Force is a sort of animist... pantheism... thing. And it might get people more curious about what I mean than if I say "Jedi" and they go "Oh, okay," but internally they're thinking, "...weirdo."

Rosemary_Red

At first, I thought this was a topic about the Sikhism before re-reading and looking into your post with my full attention. sweatdrop

I must admit that I'm a bit intrigued that something pop culture like Star Wars could have this kind of effect on people. Personally, as an Atheist living in the southern united states, I think that it can be hard to express your beliefs to people that can understand, especially if they are radically different. Anyway, I respect your opinion of faith and I hope that it will lead you to good fortune and happiness. smile

Well, there are a lot of parallels between the Jedi and Sikhs.

...Just saying...

Atheist in the South? I am so, so sorry. I know the feeling, it's hard to manage around here without being invited to someone's church, or go through someone's attempt at conversion.

[Beatus Sine Nomine]

Xiam

Resonare Praeteriti

True, I myself am more agnostic than atheist to tell the truth. I don't believe in gods, no, but I do believe we have forces at work in the universe and within us, much like the light side and the dark side of the Force. They are non-personified entities, raw energies which contradict each other, but at the same time need each other to survive. The reason I identify with LaVeyan Satanism is because...well, let's face it: people aren't going to take me seriously if I tell them my religion is from Star Wars. I can agree with the Sith belief, but to list it as my official belief system seems as if it would get me laughed right out of most situations.

That's pretty much how I settled... sort of. I mean, basically I wasn't happy with the way people depict "God" (anthropomorphic entity basically placed as King of the Cosmos? Oh hell no), but I could fully understand the way Yoda talked about the Force in The Empire Strikes Back.

Depending on the people I'm around at any given time, though, I might just say "pantheist." The Force is a sort of animist... pantheism... thing. And it might get people more curious about what I mean than if I say "Jedi" and they go "Oh, okay," but internally they're thinking, "...weirdo."

Yeah, I've also noticed that people seem a lot more receptive to your beliefs if you say "they're complicated" and then explain rather than give a name. For example, Sith and Jedi beliefs seem perfectly legitimate, until of course you mention the name. Then people automatically think 'LARPer gone too far'. People also think that LaVeyan Satanism is perfectly fine, until you mention the name at which point some despite everything you've told them and think 'Ermahgerd they worship the devil! Run for your soul!' Oh, the associations of words.

[Xiam]

Resonare Praeteriti

Xiam

Resonare Praeteriti

True, I myself am more agnostic than atheist to tell the truth. I don't believe in gods, no, but I do believe we have forces at work in the universe and within us, much like the light side and the dark side of the Force. They are non-personified entities, raw energies which contradict each other, but at the same time need each other to survive. The reason I identify with LaVeyan Satanism is because...well, let's face it: people aren't going to take me seriously if I tell them my religion is from Star Wars. I can agree with the Sith belief, but to list it as my official belief system seems as if it would get me laughed right out of most situations.

That's pretty much how I settled... sort of. I mean, basically I wasn't happy with the way people depict "God" (anthropomorphic entity basically placed as King of the Cosmos? Oh hell no), but I could fully understand the way Yoda talked about the Force in The Empire Strikes Back.

Depending on the people I'm around at any given time, though, I might just say "pantheist." The Force is a sort of animist... pantheism... thing. And it might get people more curious about what I mean than if I say "Jedi" and they go "Oh, okay," but internally they're thinking, "...weirdo."

Yeah, I've also noticed that people seem a lot more receptive to your beliefs if you say "they're complicated" and then explain rather than give a name. For example, Sith and Jedi beliefs seem perfectly legitimate, until of course you mention the name. Then people automatically think 'LARPer gone too far'. People also think that LaVeyan Satanism is perfectly fine, until you mention the name at which point some despite everything you've told them and think 'Ermahgerd they worship the devil! Run for your soul!' Oh, the associations of words.

Which is why I find it absurd that Satanists even prefer to be called that. xp

I mean, yeah, I get "LARPer," but it's a good example of the exact model of worldview I use...

Don't mean to step on anybody's toes there...

[Beatus Sine Nomine]

Xiam

Resonare Praeteriti

Xiam

Resonare Praeteriti

True, I myself am more agnostic than atheist to tell the truth. I don't believe in gods, no, but I do believe we have forces at work in the universe and within us, much like the light side and the dark side of the Force. They are non-personified entities, raw energies which contradict each other, but at the same time need each other to survive. The reason I identify with LaVeyan Satanism is because...well, let's face it: people aren't going to take me seriously if I tell them my religion is from Star Wars. I can agree with the Sith belief, but to list it as my official belief system seems as if it would get me laughed right out of most situations.

That's pretty much how I settled... sort of. I mean, basically I wasn't happy with the way people depict "God" (anthropomorphic entity basically placed as King of the Cosmos? Oh hell no), but I could fully understand the way Yoda talked about the Force in The Empire Strikes Back.

Depending on the people I'm around at any given time, though, I might just say "pantheist." The Force is a sort of animist... pantheism... thing. And it might get people more curious about what I mean than if I say "Jedi" and they go "Oh, okay," but internally they're thinking, "...weirdo."

Yeah, I've also noticed that people seem a lot more receptive to your beliefs if you say "they're complicated" and then explain rather than give a name. For example, Sith and Jedi beliefs seem perfectly legitimate, until of course you mention the name. Then people automatically think 'LARPer gone too far'. People also think that LaVeyan Satanism is perfectly fine, until you mention the name at which point some despite everything you've told them and think 'Ermahgerd they worship the devil! Run for your soul!' Oh, the associations of words.

Which is why I find it absurd that Satanists even prefer to be called that. xp

I mean, yeah, I get "LARPer," but it's a good example of the exact model of worldview I use...

Don't mean to step on anybody's toes there...

In my understanding, it's more how the mythological figure of Satan represents the ideology. He's seen as a Prometheus-like role model, and though he does not exist, we ultimately become similar to him through holding the same ideals. Thus the ideology is called Satanism, because each of it's followers is like Satan: an outcast of convention, completely in touch with themselves and how they operate, striving for success and knowledge, and unhindered by stigmas and taboos. It's a very clever name in theory, but I have to agree with you...it really does cause so many misunderstandings once it's put to practice. emotion_facepalm

Indeed, it's a shame that people who actually agree with ideas put forth in something like Star Wars get so much criticism for it. Especially with such good ideas, at that.

[Xiam]

Resonare Praeteriti

In my understanding, it's more how the mythological figure of Satan represents the ideology. He's seen as a Prometheus-like role model, and though he does not exist, we ultimately become similar to him through holding the same ideals. Thus the ideology is called Satanism, because each of it's followers is like Satan: an outcast of convention, completely in touch with themselves and how they operate, striving for success and knowledge, and unhindered by stigmas and taboos. It's a very clever name in theory, but I have to agree with you...it really does cause so many misunderstandings once it's put to practice. emotion_facepalm

Yeah... that's what I've heard too. And it seems like they're explicitly seeking disapproval from others. It's weird, really.

Resonare Praeteriti

Indeed, it's a shame that people who actually agree with ideas put forth in something like Star Wars get so much criticism for it. Especially with such good ideas, at that.

Oh, totally. Basically the Force is a distillation of the essence of spirituality. It's purposefully vague to be able to assign the viewer's own faith to it. I have seen so many essays on how the Jedi are analogous to such-and-such a religion. It's always funny to me because it's every religion.

[Beatus Sine Nomine]

Xiam

Resonare Praeteriti

In my understanding, it's more how the mythological figure of Satan represents the ideology. He's seen as a Prometheus-like role model, and though he does not exist, we ultimately become similar to him through holding the same ideals. Thus the ideology is called Satanism, because each of it's followers is like Satan: an outcast of convention, completely in touch with themselves and how they operate, striving for success and knowledge, and unhindered by stigmas and taboos. It's a very clever name in theory, but I have to agree with you...it really does cause so many misunderstandings once it's put to practice. emotion_facepalm

Yeah... that's what I've heard too. And it seems like they're explicitly seeking disapproval from others. It's weird, really.

Resonare Praeteriti

Indeed, it's a shame that people who actually agree with ideas put forth in something like Star Wars get so much criticism for it. Especially with such good ideas, at that.

Oh, totally. Basically the Force is a distillation of the essence of spirituality. It's purposefully vague to be able to assign the viewer's own faith to it. I have seen so many essays on how the Jedi are analogous to such-and-such a religion. It's always funny to me because it's every religion.

Personally I would have called it something different, even a simple 'LaVeyanism' would suffice. It makes me wonder if I'm perhaps more true to the ideals than most Satanists because I would manipulate the verbal implications to serve my means. lol

Exactly. It's meant to be relatable for anyone so that the audience can feel engaged, so that they can relate to the characters involved. Though I do notice that the Jedi seem to have strong Buddhist influence, and the Sith strong LaVeyan Satanist influence. I theorize that's because those were likely the two religions that inspired the different followings.

[Xiam]

Resonare Praeteriti

Xiam

Resonare Praeteriti

In my understanding, it's more how the mythological figure of Satan represents the ideology. He's seen as a Prometheus-like role model, and though he does not exist, we ultimately become similar to him through holding the same ideals. Thus the ideology is called Satanism, because each of it's followers is like Satan: an outcast of convention, completely in touch with themselves and how they operate, striving for success and knowledge, and unhindered by stigmas and taboos. It's a very clever name in theory, but I have to agree with you...it really does cause so many misunderstandings once it's put to practice. emotion_facepalm

Yeah... that's what I've heard too. And it seems like they're explicitly seeking disapproval from others. It's weird, really.

Resonare Praeteriti

Indeed, it's a shame that people who actually agree with ideas put forth in something like Star Wars get so much criticism for it. Especially with such good ideas, at that.

Oh, totally. Basically the Force is a distillation of the essence of spirituality. It's purposefully vague to be able to assign the viewer's own faith to it. I have seen so many essays on how the Jedi are analogous to such-and-such a religion. It's always funny to me because it's every religion.

Personally I would have called it something different, even a simple 'LaVeyanism' would suffice. It makes me wonder if I'm perhaps more true to the ideals than most Satanists because I would manipulate the verbal implications to serve my means. lol

Exactly. It's meant to be relatable for anyone so that the audience can feel engaged, so that they can relate to the characters involved. Though I do notice that the Jedi seem to have strong Buddhist influence, and the Sith strong LaVeyan Satanist influence. I theorize that's because those were likely the two religions that inspired the different followings.

Hm... the Jedi are strongly influenced by Buddhists, yes, but I think the Sith are probably not (at least intentionally) based upon LaVeyan principles. At most, they're simply placed at the opposite end of the spectrum, as a counter to Buddhist or Jedi principles. Jedi are supposed to be selfless, working for the greater good, and defense of the weak. By contrast, Sith are selfish, and seek power and influence rather than knowledge and defense. What knowledge they do take from the Force is only to be used to their advantage.

Ummm... example. Anakin and Luke. They both had troubles with attachment to their friends and family, but unlike Anakin, who was willing to do anything to keep what he had, not even stopping at murder, Luke was able to come to the realization that he was on the brink of falling headfirst into that same madness, and stepped back. He was able to let go. Hell, he was only there for his father in the first place. Not out of some attachment or daddy issues, but out of a belief that he could still save Anakin from himself.

[Chieftain Twilight]

Trollzors Vader

Chieftain Twilight

Trollzors Vader

I'm always downright surprised what a wonderful work star wars has truly evolved into to touch peoples lives in such unexpected ways.

I had a question for the op, as to how you found it along the same lines as chaos magic. I would say it's not impossible for a practitioner of chaos magic to have the same philosophy on rare occasions, but the two wouldn't be related. That's like saying it can be related to humanity because it's possible for a human to hold these ideas, but isn't really related to them being a human.

well, to answer your question, I actually didn't say that the two are related or similar -- merely that there are quite a number of Chaos Magi who are also Sith Realists. I am one, one of the Masters at the forum I studied at is, and I have noticed a handful of others who are. that is all I meant; that Sith Realism is attractive to Satanists, Chaos Magi, etcetera.

Ah fair enough I guess.

I can't say i would make much use of it myself... So now you found one who doesn't bother with any predetermined code... Come to think of it i don't bother with much at all.

I admire that. myself, I see it as more of a means to an end rather than an end in itself. I like knowledge, and I seek wisdom and knowledge wherever I can. Sith Realism is just another source of learning for me. ^_^