Sith Realism

[Lord Alucard Ere Casanova]

Lucky~9~Lives

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

If it was a point (it being a point itself) then it had a point (the spot in which it inhabited, it had itself), and that point (the Big Bang's origin) is where the point was (The Big Bang took place where the Big Bang started).

It didn't inhabit a spot - it wasn't an entity with a given space-time co-ordinate - it was (the creation of) space-time itself. Consider: does a bucket inhabit a bucket?

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

If it helps to understand what I meant, I'll refer to your reply... You, being you and being male, have a male because you have yourself. Since you have yourself you have a male.

As I said: I don't have myself; I am myself.

Alright, we'll look at it that way. Our universe was created by the Big Bang. Our universe is constantly expanding, which means new space is being created constantly. This new space wasn't where it is until it was made and was made after the space that already exists. Correct?

Assuming the previous statement is correct it seems logical to say that the same can be said for every bit of space leading up to (or back to) the original pin-point where our universe must have begun, because that spot was made first. Regardless of whether or not the Big Bang created everything at the exact same moment or not, it had a beginning. Wherever it started would be a point. The Big Bang itself, in your words, is a point and if it is a point it must have at some point in time been in a single spot.

If the Big Bang really did create our universe, as evidence leads us to believe, then what we would have to look at is the universe itself. Our universe is expanding, galaxies are constantly moving and many are moving farther away. It is logical to suspect that they were closer together in the past, they just didn't appear where we first saw them then start moving away. Wherever they lead to seems to me it would be the beginning.

Like I said previously, size is irrelevant. The point could be a microscopic dot in empty space with all the matter that makes up our universe compounded into one mass, it could be a large area with many galaxies already formed, or it could be the entire universe as it is now with slightly different features and obviously considerably smaller.

We know new planets can form. New stars as well. I'm pretty sure new galaxies can form, though I haven't looked that much into it. And did you know our "Big Bang" may not have been the beginning of time entirely? The beginning of our time, yes, but there is the possibility of universes beyond our own. Sets of galaxies zillions of light-years away that began with their own Big Bang.

[Lord Alucard Ere Casanova]

Xiam

Uh, two things.
1. Why are we talking about Hydrogen?
2. Just because it's lighter than air doesn't mean it can escape gravity's pull. I mean, oil is less dense than water, but it doesn't just float away.

Though a Yahoo! Answers thing says the hydrogen actually escapes from solar winds.

Then again... Yahoo! Answers.

I mentioned it because of something to do with gravity, but that question is a good one. Sithism led to scientific discussions due to evolution, I think it was. Perhaps we should get back on track and not high-jack the thread.

And my point on hydrogen was referring more specifically to the saying "Whatever goes up must come down." That is all. I am deeply sorry for not being more clear, I thought the way I typed it made the connection, but I was not directly referring to it as an exception to gravity. Nothing is an exception to gravity except what goes into quantum physics, which seems to be an exception to a number of things including in some cases order in general.

"Whatever goes up must come down." Hydrogen escapes the atmosphere, maybe solar winds is right, so it doesn't necessarily come back down. The entire point right there and the fact it leaves the atmosphere permits me to consider my point proven.

[Lord Alucard Ere Casanova]

Attempting to get this back into Force Realist discussion...

The line "There is no Death, there is the Force" might be an exception to the idea of "there is no [something]" being a mindset rather than a denial. The belief is that those who die live on in the Force. Their energy and spirit continue existing and since that is there it isn't really death. What do you think of this?

[Xiam]

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Attempting to get this back into Force Realist discussion...

The line "There is no Death, there is the Force" might be an exception to the idea of "there is no [something]" being a mindset rather than a denial. The belief is that those who die live on in the Force. Their energy and spirit continue existing and since that is there it isn't really death. What do you think of this?

I dunno, that's a bit of a mindset thing too... I mean, there is death of individual organisms, or even species. It's just that life tends to continue somewhere regardless of those particular deaths, be it on a different continent, in the oceans, in only small animals instead of the large creatures which are horrifically wiped out, or on a completely other planet when the dominant species of one planet stupidly wipes themselves out with war or some scientific blunder that renders their entire planet inert.

[Lord Alucard Ere Casanova]

Xiam

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Attempting to get this back into Force Realist discussion...

The line "There is no Death, there is the Force" might be an exception to the idea of "there is no [something]" being a mindset rather than a denial. The belief is that those who die live on in the Force. Their energy and spirit continue existing and since that is there it isn't really death. What do you think of this?

I dunno, that's a bit of a mindset thing too... I mean, there is death of individual organisms, or even species. It's just that life tends to continue somewhere regardless of those particular deaths, be it on a different continent, in the oceans, in only small animals instead of the large creatures which are horrifically wiped out, or on a completely other planet when the dominant species of one planet stupidly wipes themselves out with war or some scientific blunder that renders their entire planet inert.

I'm not sure if mindset and belief would be considered and defined the same way or not, honestly. The belief is that everything that dies continues living through the Force, so it isn't really dead. Because they don't really consider it dead it would be considered a denial. This is only true for some Jedi (and maybe Sith, not sure) though. Others, such as myself, simply say that the body dies while the spirit lives on. Which seems to be a very common belief among many religions.

[Xiam]

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Xiam

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Attempting to get this back into Force Realist discussion...

The line "There is no Death, there is the Force" might be an exception to the idea of "there is no [something]" being a mindset rather than a denial. The belief is that those who die live on in the Force. Their energy and spirit continue existing and since that is there it isn't really death. What do you think of this?

I dunno, that's a bit of a mindset thing too... I mean, there is death of individual organisms, or even species. It's just that life tends to continue somewhere regardless of those particular deaths, be it on a different continent, in the oceans, in only small animals instead of the large creatures which are horrifically wiped out, or on a completely other planet when the dominant species of one planet stupidly wipes themselves out with war or some scientific blunder that renders their entire planet inert.

I'm not sure if mindset and belief would be considered and defined the same way or not, honestly. The belief is that everything that dies continues living through the Force, so it isn't really dead. Because they don't really consider it dead it would be considered a denial. This is only true for some Jedi (and maybe Sith, not sure) though. Others, such as myself, simply say that the body dies while the spirit lives on. Which seems to be a very common belief among many religions.

It's still all a matter of "a certain point of view," though, right?

I mean... the Jedi Code seems to not say that "These things don't exist, these other things do," it's more like it's saying... "Don't dwell upon these things, but instead focus upon the others." It's not saying emotion, ignorance, passion, chaos, or death don't exist, or even really that you should somehow surpass them... it's more like saying not to let them consume you.

Don't let your emotions or passion control you, let your mind be at peace. Serene.
Don't allow yourself to be ignorant or act out of ignorance, learn all that you can so that it may better your judgment.
Don't feel at odds with yourself or your surroundings, but live in harmony.
Don't worry about the death of yourself or others, because they live on in the Force.

I mean, all these things may happen, even in for a Master. But then we catch ourselves and try to act for the best, so long as we remember the truth of ourselves and all life.

[Lord Alucard Ere Casanova]

Xiam

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Xiam

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Attempting to get this back into Force Realist discussion...

The line "There is no Death, there is the Force" might be an exception to the idea of "there is no [something]" being a mindset rather than a denial. The belief is that those who die live on in the Force. Their energy and spirit continue existing and since that is there it isn't really death. What do you think of this?

I dunno, that's a bit of a mindset thing too... I mean, there is death of individual organisms, or even species. It's just that life tends to continue somewhere regardless of those particular deaths, be it on a different continent, in the oceans, in only small animals instead of the large creatures which are horrifically wiped out, or on a completely other planet when the dominant species of one planet stupidly wipes themselves out with war or some scientific blunder that renders their entire planet inert.

I'm not sure if mindset and belief would be considered and defined the same way or not, honestly. The belief is that everything that dies continues living through the Force, so it isn't really dead. Because they don't really consider it dead it would be considered a denial. This is only true for some Jedi (and maybe Sith, not sure) though. Others, such as myself, simply say that the body dies while the spirit lives on. Which seems to be a very common belief among many religions.

It's still all a matter of "a certain point of view," though, right?

I mean... the Jedi Code seems to not say that "These things don't exist, these other things do," it's more like it's saying... "Don't dwell upon these things, but instead focus upon the others." It's not saying emotion, ignorance, passion, chaos, or death don't exist, or even really that you should somehow surpass them... it's more like saying not to let them consume you.

Don't let your emotions or passion control you, let your mind be at peace. Serene.
Don't allow yourself to be ignorant or act out of ignorance, learn all that you can so that it may better your judgment.
Don't feel at odds with yourself or your surroundings, but live in harmony.
Don't worry about the death of yourself or others, because they live on in the Force.

I mean, all these things may happen, even in for a Master. But then we catch ourselves and try to act for the best, so long as we remember the truth of ourselves and all life.

I don't think I've seen it explained so well in so few words anywhere else online.

[Xiam]

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Xiam

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Xiam

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Attempting to get this back into Force Realist discussion...

The line "There is no Death, there is the Force" might be an exception to the idea of "there is no [something]" being a mindset rather than a denial. The belief is that those who die live on in the Force. Their energy and spirit continue existing and since that is there it isn't really death. What do you think of this?

I dunno, that's a bit of a mindset thing too... I mean, there is death of individual organisms, or even species. It's just that life tends to continue somewhere regardless of those particular deaths, be it on a different continent, in the oceans, in only small animals instead of the large creatures which are horrifically wiped out, or on a completely other planet when the dominant species of one planet stupidly wipes themselves out with war or some scientific blunder that renders their entire planet inert.

I'm not sure if mindset and belief would be considered and defined the same way or not, honestly. The belief is that everything that dies continues living through the Force, so it isn't really dead. Because they don't really consider it dead it would be considered a denial. This is only true for some Jedi (and maybe Sith, not sure) though. Others, such as myself, simply say that the body dies while the spirit lives on. Which seems to be a very common belief among many religions.

It's still all a matter of "a certain point of view," though, right?

I mean... the Jedi Code seems to not say that "These things don't exist, these other things do," it's more like it's saying... "Don't dwell upon these things, but instead focus upon the others." It's not saying emotion, ignorance, passion, chaos, or death don't exist, or even really that you should somehow surpass them... it's more like saying not to let them consume you.

Don't let your emotions or passion control you, let your mind be at peace. Serene.
Don't allow yourself to be ignorant or act out of ignorance, learn all that you can so that it may better your judgment.
Don't feel at odds with yourself or your surroundings, but live in harmony.
Don't worry about the death of yourself or others, because they live on in the Force.

I mean, all these things may happen, even in for a Master. But then we catch ourselves and try to act for the best, so long as we remember the truth of ourselves and all life.

I don't think I've seen it explained so well in so few words anywhere else online.

"So few words"? It felt like a rant to me. Maybe I just keep hoping to come up with a short answer. sweatdrop

[Lucky~9~Lives]

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Alright, we'll look at it that way. Our universe was created by the Big Bang. Our universe is constantly expanding, which means new space is being created constantly. This new space wasn't where it is until it was made and was made after the space that already exists. Correct?

No; the same space(-time) is expanding, not being created, and the concept of "where(-when)" applied to space(-time) is invalid - space(-time) is what defines "where(-when)". As before: where in the bucket is the bucket?

[Lord Alucard Ere Casanova]

Xiam

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Xiam

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Xiam

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Attempting to get this back into Force Realist discussion...

The line "There is no Death, there is the Force" might be an exception to the idea of "there is no [something]" being a mindset rather than a denial. The belief is that those who die live on in the Force. Their energy and spirit continue existing and since that is there it isn't really death. What do you think of this?

I dunno, that's a bit of a mindset thing too... I mean, there is death of individual organisms, or even species. It's just that life tends to continue somewhere regardless of those particular deaths, be it on a different continent, in the oceans, in only small animals instead of the large creatures which are horrifically wiped out, or on a completely other planet when the dominant species of one planet stupidly wipes themselves out with war or some scientific blunder that renders their entire planet inert.

I'm not sure if mindset and belief would be considered and defined the same way or not, honestly. The belief is that everything that dies continues living through the Force, so it isn't really dead. Because they don't really consider it dead it would be considered a denial. This is only true for some Jedi (and maybe Sith, not sure) though. Others, such as myself, simply say that the body dies while the spirit lives on. Which seems to be a very common belief among many religions.

It's still all a matter of "a certain point of view," though, right?

I mean... the Jedi Code seems to not say that "These things don't exist, these other things do," it's more like it's saying... "Don't dwell upon these things, but instead focus upon the others." It's not saying emotion, ignorance, passion, chaos, or death don't exist, or even really that you should somehow surpass them... it's more like saying not to let them consume you.

Don't let your emotions or passion control you, let your mind be at peace. Serene.
Don't allow yourself to be ignorant or act out of ignorance, learn all that you can so that it may better your judgment.
Don't feel at odds with yourself or your surroundings, but live in harmony.
Don't worry about the death of yourself or others, because they live on in the Force.

I mean, all these things may happen, even in for a Master. But then we catch ourselves and try to act for the best, so long as we remember the truth of ourselves and all life.

I don't think I've seen it explained so well in so few words anywhere else online.

"So few words"? It felt like a rant to me. Maybe I just keep hoping to come up with a short answer. sweatdrop

Full quote for better understand. "I don't think I've seen it explained so well in so few words." It's been explained in less, but not as well from what I myself have seen. It's a personal opinion. If it's simplified too much there are gaps for understanding. If it is expressed any more than this, I think there would be unnecessary information added.

[Lord Alucard Ere Casanova]

Lucky~9~Lives

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Alright, we'll look at it that way. Our universe was created by the Big Bang. Our universe is constantly expanding, which means new space is being created constantly. This new space wasn't where it is until it was made and was made after the space that already exists. Correct?

No; the same space(-time) is expanding, not being created, and the concept of "where(-when)" applied to space(-time) is invalid - space(-time) is what defines "where(-when)". As before: where in the bucket is the bucket?

Within and throughout the bucket, exactly where it is and always has been. Just as for everything else.

[Lucky~9~Lives]

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Lucky~9~Lives

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Alright, we'll look at it that way. Our universe was created by the Big Bang. Our universe is constantly expanding, which means new space is being created constantly. This new space wasn't where it is until it was made and was made after the space that already exists. Correct?

No; the same space(-time) is expanding, not being created, and the concept of "where(-when)" applied to space(-time) is invalid - space(-time) is what defines "where(-when)". As before: where in the bucket is the bucket?

Within and throughout the bucket, exactly where it is and always has been.

The bucket is in the with-in and through-out of the bucket? Which is to say, it's always been a bucket; it has never been in a bucket.

Unless it was in a larger bucket.

[Xiam]

Lucky~9~Lives

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Lucky~9~Lives

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Alright, we'll look at it that way. Our universe was created by the Big Bang. Our universe is constantly expanding, which means new space is being created constantly. This new space wasn't where it is until it was made and was made after the space that already exists. Correct?

No; the same space(-time) is expanding, not being created, and the concept of "where(-when)" applied to space(-time) is invalid - space(-time) is what defines "where(-when)". As before: where in the bucket is the bucket?

Within and throughout the bucket, exactly where it is and always has been.

The bucket is in the with-in and through-out of the bucket? Which is to say, it's always been a bucket; it has never been in a bucket.

Unless it was in a larger bucket.

A bucket within a bucket? Madness!

[Lord Alucard Ere Casanova]

Lucky~9~Lives

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Lucky~9~Lives

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Alright, we'll look at it that way. Our universe was created by the Big Bang. Our universe is constantly expanding, which means new space is being created constantly. This new space wasn't where it is until it was made and was made after the space that already exists. Correct?

No; the same space(-time) is expanding, not being created, and the concept of "where(-when)" applied to space(-time) is invalid - space(-time) is what defines "where(-when)". As before: where in the bucket is the bucket?

Within and throughout the bucket, exactly where it is and always has been.

The bucket is in the with-in and through-out of the bucket? Which is to say, it's always been a bucket; it has never been in a bucket.

Unless it was in a larger bucket.

The bucket isn't in the bucket, it is the bucket. So within and throughout the material that makes up the bucket is the bucket. Wording it as the bucket is in the bucket implies we have a bucket within a bucket and as Xiam said, that's madness.

[Lord Alucard Ere Casanova]

Xiam

Lucky~9~Lives

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Lucky~9~Lives

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Alright, we'll look at it that way. Our universe was created by the Big Bang. Our universe is constantly expanding, which means new space is being created constantly. This new space wasn't where it is until it was made and was made after the space that already exists. Correct?

No; the same space(-time) is expanding, not being created, and the concept of "where(-when)" applied to space(-time) is invalid - space(-time) is what defines "where(-when)". As before: where in the bucket is the bucket?

Within and throughout the bucket, exactly where it is and always has been.

The bucket is in the with-in and through-out of the bucket? Which is to say, it's always been a bucket; it has never been in a bucket.

Unless it was in a larger bucket.

A bucket within a bucket? Madness!