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I have long thought of the morality behind refusing to classify religion as a mental illness. The immediate image that comes to mind when i hit this thought process is a famous story regarding a man who seeks to either defeat the Leviathan or save his city. In the story, the man is faced with a vile and horrendous nigh unstoppable monster (the Leviathan) that is doom to his village. The Leviathan demands a sacrifice every year in order to stave off it's destructive tendencies.

Is Religion the Leviathan of the psychiatric/mental health community? Many religious individuals who follow doctrine exhibit signs of mental deterioration, indicative of cause/effect relations similar to being ordered by a powerful authority figure to do something against the one's health or better nature. This shows a lack of control over one's own actions or the ability to claim responsibility for them.

If psychiatry is down to a vote of popularity, then what is the moral consequence for deceiving the populace for the sake of appeasing a group? What would be the ramifications for judging one group of mentally ill people to be ill, and the other to be sane on a basis of their club?

I propose that the argument of Religion and Mental Illness be re-analyzed not just scientifically, but with a basis of equity and morality. If you can justify that one group of mentally ill people is protected by virtue of their doctrine, then the psych wards should be empty. On the other hand, if we classify EVERY religious person as mentally ill, there would not be enough psych wards in the world to hold them. Does this make their behavior justified? Veering away from arguments of authority, would you condone a person acting psychotically if it meant harm to others? Would you condone this behavior if they claimed it was because of some unseen spirit?
stealthmongoose
Many religious individuals who follow doctrine exhibit signs of mental deterioration, indicative of cause/effect relations similar to being ordered by a powerful authority figure to do something against the one's health or better nature.


Research Shows Religion Plays A Major Role In Health, Longevity
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stealthmongoose
Many religious individuals who follow doctrine exhibit signs of mental deterioration, indicative of cause/effect relations similar to being ordered by a powerful authority figure to do something against the one's health or better nature.


Research Shows Religion Plays A Major Role In Health, Longevity


Hmmm. the details of this study are quite vague. While the proposed author states that variables were counted within the structure of behavior (being told not to drink or smoke by your religion helps you become afraid of those things) this correlation seems to ignore the aspects of religious doctrine that demand detrimental acts be committed.

While i respect this notion that religion could have a placebo effect, if not an outright physical result from following the good advice proposed by it, this does not deterr my argument of mental illness.

A man who helps an entire family from a burning building because he thinks the people are angels and the fire is Satan, is still classified as mentally unstable even if his deeds are good. I'm not here to discuss the positive effects of deception or the effect a white lie can have on someone.

I'd much rather discuss the morality of ignoring this classification in SOME while considering it normal in others. The post you made further convinces me that this bias needs to be revisited and weeded out, while strengthening the notion that self-delusion can provide immediate results but does not get an entitlement to being considered sane.
stealthmongoose
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stealthmongoose
Many religious individuals who follow doctrine exhibit signs of mental deterioration, indicative of cause/effect relations similar to being ordered by a powerful authority figure to do something against the one's health or better nature.


Research Shows Religion Plays A Major Role In Health, Longevity


Hmmm. the details of this study are quite vague. While the proposed author states that variables were counted within the structure of behavior (being told not to drink or smoke by your religion helps you become afraid of those things) this correlation seems to ignore the aspects of religious doctrine that demand detrimental acts be committed.


Your details of religious doctrine that demands detrimental acts be committed are quite vague.
Saqerlat's avatar

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stealthmongoose
I have long thought of the morality behind refusing to classify religion as a mental illness. The immediate image that comes to mind when i hit this thought process is a famous story regarding a man who seeks to either defeat the Leviathan or save his city. In the story, the man is faced with a vile and horrendous nigh unstoppable monster (the Leviathan) that is doom to his village. The Leviathan demands a sacrifice every year in order to stave off it's destructive tendencies.

Is Religion the Leviathan of the psychiatric/mental health community? Many religious individuals who follow doctrine exhibit signs of mental deterioration, indicative of cause/effect relations similar to being ordered by a powerful authority figure to do something against the one's health or better nature. This shows a lack of control over one's own actions or the ability to claim responsibility for them.

If psychiatry is down to a vote of popularity, then what is the moral consequence for deceiving the populace for the sake of appeasing a group? What would be the ramifications for judging one group of mentally ill people to be ill, and the other to be sane on a basis of their club?

I propose that the argument of Religion and Mental Illness be re-analyzed not just scientifically, but with a basis of equity and morality. If you can justify that one group of mentally ill people is protected by virtue of their doctrine, then the psych wards should be empty. On the other hand, if we classify EVERY religious person as mentally ill, there would not be enough psych wards in the world to hold them. Does this make their behavior justified? Veering away from arguments of authority, would you condone a person acting psychotically if it meant harm to others? Would you condone this behavior if they claimed it was because of some unseen spirit?


If you're going to deny the biblical evidence that dinosaurs/extinct creatures may have existed and the leviathan was one form of dinosaur/extinct creature (non-extinct at that time); you might as well deny science's evidence for dinosaurs/extinct creatures as well. Nobody sees mammoths anymore, and saber-tooth tigers, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. The Bible also mentions the behemoth. (Job 40:15).

So Noah just built an ark because he was mentally ill. He automatically knew some heavy tide was coming in and he just decided to build it, but he didn't know why. [/sarcasm]

Here's your proof Noah's ark existed. (See videos below) Ancient Sumerian tablets also document the flood. A number of other ancient civilizations documented a great flood as well. (Meaning it was worldwide). There are ancient biblical artifacts, that have been found, that correspond with the gospel. There's proof a supreme supernatural being spoke to people. That's also proof the big bang wasn't randomly formed by random matter coming together and making a random explosion. (Cause and effect). For an effect there has to be a cause; for believers in God, that cause is God.



Science hasn't studied/discovered everything. (Meaning it's limited). A lot of people, including some scientists, believe the supernatural exists. Science can't explain unexplainable events. Explain to me how more than one person can see the exact same hallucination to the naked eye? Or a hallucination through a camera lens, or caught on video, or in a photograph? Maybe some people are just more spiritually sensitive than others. Being spiritually sensitive differs from mental illness.

Another example: Demonic possession. There are cases where people are demon possessed, and can speak in languages they've never learned before. How does science explain that? (Being demon possessed is no mental illness). There's "demon possessed" and there's "mental illness" they are two different things.

And for those who believe the Bible is out of date, or merely created by men, because it states the earth is "flat" is false. The men long ago who wrote the Bible knew the earth was round. But how did they know without secret knowledge or visions from God? (Job 26:10, Prov 8:27, Isaiah 40:22, Amos 9:6). The Bible revealed the truth in 1000 B.C. 2500 years before scientists discovered it themselves. There was also no modern technology in those days. idea


Isaiah 40:22 --It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;

Job 26:10 --10 He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.

Prov 8:27-28 --When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep

Amos 9:6 --6 who builds his upper chambers in the heavens and founds his vault upon the earth;
who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out upon the surface of the earth—the Lord is his name.
stealthmongoose's avatar

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stealthmongoose
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stealthmongoose
Many religious individuals who follow doctrine exhibit signs of mental deterioration, indicative of cause/effect relations similar to being ordered by a powerful authority figure to do something against the one's health or better nature.


Research Shows Religion Plays A Major Role In Health, Longevity


Hmmm. the details of this study are quite vague. While the proposed author states that variables were counted within the structure of behavior (being told not to drink or smoke by your religion helps you become afraid of those things) this correlation seems to ignore the aspects of religious doctrine that demand detrimental acts be committed.


Your details of religious doctrine that demands detrimental acts be committed are quite vague.


Please see AmeixaNeko's argument against me for a better example of how religion can mislead (and by virtue harm) people with growing minds than i could ever come up with. Well, maybe not on a good day.
stealthmongoose
Lucky~9~Lives
Your details of religious doctrine that demands detrimental acts be committed are quite vague.


Please see AmeixaNeko's argument against me for a better example of how religion can mislead (and by virtue harm) people with growing minds than i could ever come up with. Well, maybe not on a good day.


Touché.
stealthmongoose
I have long thought of the morality behind refusing to classify religion as a mental illness.
You're confusing morality with practicality. Religion isn't a mental illness in the same sense that being gay isn't. People can function and be happy within many states and as long as those states do not undermine their ability to function, it is not mental illness. The flip side of the coin is that some aspects of mental illness can fall under the veil of religious delusions in the same way that social pressures on gays and lesbians can increase the rates of clinical depression and suicide.

Bottom line: Cause =/= Effect. Thus, the morality argument is dead at the starting gate, and you'd be hard pressed to find any Ethics board that would unbiasedly condemn a thing or idea, even religious beliefs, simply because some people who suffer mental illness manifest it in terms of religious cosmology.
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stealthmongoose
I have long thought of the morality behind refusing to classify religion as a mental illness.

Stopping you right there. Religion is a state of mind common in human thought. If religion is a mental illness, than so is being a fan of a TV show, book series, games, music, etc. There's no logic in it. It's not real, right? So why the devotion? Why the arguments about "canon"?

Religion just takes this devotion a step further. And not always in a bad way, mind you.

How about dreams? We all experience them every night, but they're not rational in the slightest. So is this a mental illness?

No, it's ******** not.


The human mind is a strange dichotomy of rational and irrational thought. We are contradictions, paradoxes. Sometimes even hypocrites. And that's normal. Religion is just another way we try to rationalize the world, perhaps in a more abstract way than you're used to.

I'm sorry, but saying religion is a mental illness is tantamount to saying being human is a mental illness.

I'm not about to deny you that, but just consider not doing so.
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stealthmongoose
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stealthmongoose
Many religious individuals who follow doctrine exhibit signs of mental deterioration, indicative of cause/effect relations similar to being ordered by a powerful authority figure to do something against the one's health or better nature.


Research Shows Religion Plays A Major Role In Health, Longevity


Hmmm. the details of this study are quite vague. While the proposed author states that variables were counted within the structure of behavior (being told not to drink or smoke by your religion helps you become afraid of those things) this correlation seems to ignore the aspects of religious doctrine that demand detrimental acts be committed.


Your details of religious doctrine that demands detrimental acts be committed are quite vague.


Please see AmeixaNeko's argument against me for a better example of how religion can mislead (and by virtue harm) people with growing minds than i could ever come up with. Well, maybe not on a good day.
I fond your argument just as silly. You are both trying to use "science" to back up your own arrogant and somewhat naive religious views.
It must be a scary world for you if the majority of people across the globe are mentally ill. Religions of all kinds are pervasive. There are many more religious people than not.

With something so widespread, it might be more practical to ask which varieties are easier to live with. Calling most of the world mentally ill isn't going to win you many friends.
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It must be a scary world for you if the majority of people across the globe are mentally ill. Religions of all kinds are pervasive. There are many more religious people than not.

With something so widespread, it might be more practical to ask which varieties are easier to live with. Calling most of the world mentally ill isn't going to win you many friends.


Captain Obvious brings up a good point.

If wanting to "win" lots of "friends" (the surefire way to "success," ) the "practical" person wouldn't just stop at tolerance, but join one and happily be told what to think, how to act, and who to lynch.
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stealthmongoose
I have long thought of the morality behind refusing to classify religion as a mental illness. The immediate image that comes to mind when i hit this thought process is a famous story regarding a man who seeks to either defeat the Leviathan or save his city. In the story, the man is faced with a vile and horrendous nigh unstoppable monster (the Leviathan) that is doom to his village. The Leviathan demands a sacrifice every year in order to stave off it's destructive tendencies.

Is Religion the Leviathan of the psychiatric/mental health community? Many religious individuals who follow doctrine exhibit signs of mental deterioration, indicative of cause/effect relations similar to being ordered by a powerful authority figure to do something against the one's health or better nature. This shows a lack of control over one's own actions or the ability to claim responsibility for them.

If psychiatry is down to a vote of popularity, then what is the moral consequence for deceiving the populace for the sake of appeasing a group? What would be the ramifications for judging one group of mentally ill people to be ill, and the other to be sane on a basis of their club?

I propose that the argument of Religion and Mental Illness be re-analyzed not just scientifically, but with a basis of equity and morality. If you can justify that one group of mentally ill people is protected by virtue of their doctrine, then the psych wards should be empty. On the other hand, if we classify EVERY religious person as mentally ill, there would not be enough psych wards in the world to hold them. Does this make their behavior justified? Veering away from arguments of authority, would you condone a person acting psychotically if it meant harm to others? Would you condone this behavior if they claimed it was because of some unseen spirit?


If you're going to deny the biblical evidence that dinosaurs/extinct creatures may have existed and the leviathan was one form of dinosaur/extinct creature (non-extinct at that time); you might as well deny science's evidence for dinosaurs/extinct creatures as well. Nobody sees mammoths anymore, and saber-tooth tigers, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. The Bible also mentions the behemoth. (Job 40:15).

So Noah just built an ark because he was mentally ill. He automatically knew some heavy tide was coming in and he just decided to build it, but he didn't know why. [/sarcasm]

Here's your proof Noah's ark existed. (See videos below) Ancient Sumerian tablets also document the flood. A number of other ancient civilizations documented a great flood as well. (Meaning it was worldwide). There are ancient biblical artifacts, that have been found, that correspond with the gospel. There's proof a supreme supernatural being spoke to people. That's also proof the big bang wasn't randomly formed by random matter coming together and making a random explosion. (Cause and effect). For an effect there has to be a cause; for believers in God, that cause is God.



Science hasn't studied/discovered everything. (Meaning it's limited). A lot of people, including some scientists, believe the supernatural exists. Science can't explain unexplainable events. Explain to me how more than one person can see the exact same hallucination to the naked eye? Or a hallucination through a camera lens, or caught on video, or in a photograph? Maybe some people are just more spiritually sensitive than others. Being spiritually sensitive differs from mental illness.

Another example: Demonic possession. There are cases where people are demon possessed, and can speak in languages they've never learned before. How does science explain that? (Being demon possessed is no mental illness). There's "demon possessed" and there's "mental illness" they are two different things.

And for those who believe the Bible is out of date, or merely created by men, because it states the earth is "flat" is false. The men long ago who wrote the Bible knew the earth was round. But how did they know without secret knowledge or visions from God? (Job 26:10, Prov 8:27, Isaiah 40:22, Amos 9:6). The Bible revealed the truth in 1000 B.C. 2500 years before scientists discovered it themselves. There was also no modern technology in those days. idea


Isaiah 40:22 --It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;

Job 26:10 --10 He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.

Prov 8:27-28 --When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep

Amos 9:6 --6 who builds his upper chambers in the heavens and founds his vault upon the earth;
who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out upon the surface of the earth—the Lord is his name.


This post...hurt to read.

It's everything bad about fundies.
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stealthmongoose
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stealthmongoose
Many religious individuals who follow doctrine exhibit signs of mental deterioration, indicative of cause/effect relations similar to being ordered by a powerful authority figure to do something against the one's health or better nature.


Research Shows Religion Plays A Major Role In Health, Longevity


Hmmm. the details of this study are quite vague. While the proposed author states that variables were counted within the structure of behavior (being told not to drink or smoke by your religion helps you become afraid of those things) this correlation seems to ignore the aspects of religious doctrine that demand detrimental acts be committed.

While i respect this notion that religion could have a placebo effect, if not an outright physical result from following the good advice proposed by it, this does not deterr my argument of mental illness.

A man who helps an entire family from a burning building because he thinks the people are angels and the fire is Satan, is still classified as mentally unstable even if his deeds are good. I'm not here to discuss the positive effects of deception or the effect a white lie can have on someone.

I'd much rather discuss the morality of ignoring this classification in SOME while considering it normal in others. The post you made further convinces me that this bias needs to be revisited and weeded out, while strengthening the notion that self-delusion can provide immediate results but does not get an entitlement to being considered sane.
actually an even better interpretation for why the religious are often healthier is that religiosity (more about connection with the group than specific beliefs) indicates that the person is integrated into society and when people feel a sense of belonging and support that increases health.

Mental illness is relative to one's functioning within society. Societies cannot be completely dysfunctional and continue very long and just because someone's beliefs are religious does not mean the religious will regard them as sane. At the most extreme, Bob Jones University (ultra fundie) thinks Fred Phelps is too extreme and rather insane.
Saqerlat's avatar

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Haha Coffee
AmeixaNeko
stealthmongoose
I have long thought of the morality behind refusing to classify religion as a mental illness. The immediate image that comes to mind when i hit this thought process is a famous story regarding a man who seeks to either defeat the Leviathan or save his city. In the story, the man is faced with a vile and horrendous nigh unstoppable monster (the Leviathan) that is doom to his village. The Leviathan demands a sacrifice every year in order to stave off it's destructive tendencies.

Is Religion the Leviathan of the psychiatric/mental health community? Many religious individuals who follow doctrine exhibit signs of mental deterioration, indicative of cause/effect relations similar to being ordered by a powerful authority figure to do something against the one's health or better nature. This shows a lack of control over one's own actions or the ability to claim responsibility for them.

If psychiatry is down to a vote of popularity, then what is the moral consequence for deceiving the populace for the sake of appeasing a group? What would be the ramifications for judging one group of mentally ill people to be ill, and the other to be sane on a basis of their club?

I propose that the argument of Religion and Mental Illness be re-analyzed not just scientifically, but with a basis of equity and morality. If you can justify that one group of mentally ill people is protected by virtue of their doctrine, then the psych wards should be empty. On the other hand, if we classify EVERY religious person as mentally ill, there would not be enough psych wards in the world to hold them. Does this make their behavior justified? Veering away from arguments of authority, would you condone a person acting psychotically if it meant harm to others? Would you condone this behavior if they claimed it was because of some unseen spirit?


If you're going to deny the biblical evidence that dinosaurs/extinct creatures may have existed and the leviathan was one form of dinosaur/extinct creature (non-extinct at that time); you might as well deny science's evidence for dinosaurs/extinct creatures as well. Nobody sees mammoths anymore, and saber-tooth tigers, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. The Bible also mentions the behemoth. (Job 40:15).

So Noah just built an ark because he was mentally ill. He automatically knew some heavy tide was coming in and he just decided to build it, but he didn't know why. [/sarcasm]

Here's your proof Noah's ark existed. (See videos below) Ancient Sumerian tablets also document the flood. A number of other ancient civilizations documented a great flood as well. (Meaning it was worldwide). There are ancient biblical artifacts, that have been found, that correspond with the gospel. There's proof a supreme supernatural being spoke to people. That's also proof the big bang wasn't randomly formed by random matter coming together and making a random explosion. (Cause and effect). For an effect there has to be a cause; for believers in God, that cause is God.



Science hasn't studied/discovered everything. (Meaning it's limited). A lot of people, including some scientists, believe the supernatural exists. Science can't explain unexplainable events. Explain to me how more than one person can see the exact same hallucination to the naked eye? Or a hallucination through a camera lens, or caught on video, or in a photograph? Maybe some people are just more spiritually sensitive than others. Being spiritually sensitive differs from mental illness.

Another example: Demonic possession. There are cases where people are demon possessed, and can speak in languages they've never learned before. How does science explain that? (Being demon possessed is no mental illness). There's "demon possessed" and there's "mental illness" they are two different things.

And for those who believe the Bible is out of date, or merely created by men, because it states the earth is "flat" is false. The men long ago who wrote the Bible knew the earth was round. But how did they know without secret knowledge or visions from God? (Job 26:10, Prov 8:27, Isaiah 40:22, Amos 9:6). The Bible revealed the truth in 1000 B.C. 2500 years before scientists discovered it themselves. There was also no modern technology in those days. idea


Isaiah 40:22 --It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;

Job 26:10 --10 He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.

Prov 8:27-28 --When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep

Amos 9:6 --6 who builds his upper chambers in the heavens and founds his vault upon the earth;
who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out upon the surface of the earth—the Lord is his name.


This post...hurt to read.

It's everything bad about fundies.


lol And why exactly does it hurt? There's evidence of the supernatural... I don't know what this has to do with fundies. It's offensive to say that because a group of people believe in more than what they can see; that means they're mentally ill. There are diagnostic tests and medical assessments that have been done on spiritual/religious people, and they’ve found that they're not mentally ill. (Don’t get me wrong some people are both mentally ill; and religious). It's been proven, that when looking at brain scans of people who are religious/Christian, their brains are have more tissue in their frontal lobes, and contain higher levels of dopamine (the feel good brain chemical); which is not a bad thing. Mental illnesses are sometimes triggered by chemical imbalances in the brain, having a little more dopamine doesn’t hurt. (It's actually proven that low levels of dopamine are linked to mental illnesses such as; schizophrenia, depression, ADHD and other mood/personality disorders ect..)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090304160400.htm

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