Judaism and Sexism

[madametrixie]

maenad nuri

madametrixie

Inscriven

Have you not seen the news coming from Israel? The Jewish orthodoxy is stomping on alot of nerves on the greater secular society with stupid archaic things like demanding women be covered, or moving back to the bus.

Hell, they even got a medical summit thing to cave in and ban female doctors from being a part of a seminar on OB/Gynecology.

Just because you haven't personally experienced it doesn't mean that Jewish Orthodoxy isn't a huge civil rights problem. It's worse than Christian fundamentalism in the states.

I'm really not in the mood to give a lecture on how tzniut is that much more than just covering and it most definitely isn't archaic. The bus thing? Listen. You have your men, you have your women. Tzniut dictates that they are separate. Someone has to be in the back. I can almost guarantee that if the men were in the back, there'd be no discussion here. The reason that the women are in the back has nothiung to do with inferiority.

The problem was more that it's a busing service that must adhere to non-discrimination policies, and they were demanding it of non-jewish women too. That's a problem.

I'm still trying to sort out the paramedic service that won't hire women, even though there are calls from within the community that they would like female doctors (and all female crew) to help keep modesty standards in regards to female patients. That just doesn't make logical sense to me.

Well, it's not the only bus on that route. You don't like it, take a different bus. And there's no issue of modesty with a doctor. I can't quote the Talmud for you, but I know that to be fact.

[Shouting Fox]

Any literal interpretation of Abrahamic religion will be inherently sexist. Don't be literal.

[madametrixie]

Shouting Fox

Any literal interpretation of Abrahamic religion will be inherently sexist. Don't be literal.

I beg to differ. How about a concrete example as opposed to a general, but vague statement?

[deadmanjay]

madametrixie

Well, it's not the only bus on that route. You don't like it, take a different bus.

Oh yes, like this answer is actually a just answer. "Don't like getting treated like s**t, don't do X." Seems like several groups over the years have heard that. I could name five groups off the top of my head to who this answer was given as if it solves something.

madametrixie

And there's no issue of modesty with a doctor. I can't quote the Talmud for you, but I know that to be fact.

You just a few posts after this told someone to prove it and you are expecting to take your word for it. You get to prove that doctors are exempt from the modesty issue.

[Shouting Fox]

madametrixie

Shouting Fox

Any literal interpretation of Abrahamic religion will be inherently sexist. Don't be literal.

I beg to differ. How about a concrete example as opposed to a general, but vague statement?

You want to start with Eve being created from Adam and therefore women being a "helpmeet" for man? That's not including the Rabbinical story of Lilith. We move from there into the realm of Biblical rape, during which a woman much scream for help in order to spare her own life-- not from the rapist, but from the community itself. For punishment, the guy has to marry the poor broad, damn his luck. Let us also mention the fact that no woman was allowed in the Holiest of Holies. A man was not to touch a woman during her cycle because she was unclean. (The subtext to that-- that many women are much more likely to achieve multiple orgasms during period sex-- speaks volumes.)

Look at the term "Abrahamic." When Sarah could not bear children, she brought in a foreigner who would do so for her; when God granted her the ability to produce, Ishmael and his mother were cast off. Both David and Solomon had multiple wives. David actually put a woman's husband on the front lines during battle so he could bed her, and he was a man after "God's own heart."

[maenad nuri]

madametrixie

Well, it's not the only bus on that route. You don't like it, take a different bus.

Actually, that bus was awarded the route through the city of new york through a bidding process. Therefore, there is to be no discrimination on the bus. The Jewish population can separate themselves if they'd like, but shouldn't harass others to do the same.

Quote:

And there's no issue of modesty with a doctor. I can't quote the Talmud for you, but I know that to be fact.

The group is forming from within an ultra-orthodox community, responding to requests from within that community, and getting backlash from Hatzolah and pretty much, well, men. And at least one blogger calling them radical feminists. And when other Hatzolah affiliates have female workers already, it seems, well....odd.

I don't think just having modesty/purity/tznius laws and rules is a major concern, esp when they are freely chosen, but there does seem to be a small subsection that use them as an excuse for misogyny.

[Inscriven]

madametrixie

Inscriven

Have you not seen the news coming from Israel? The Jewish orthodoxy is stomping on alot of nerves on the greater secular society with stupid archaic things like demanding women be covered, or moving back to the bus.

Hell, they even got a medical summit thing to cave in and ban female doctors from being a part of a seminar on OB/Gynecology.

Just because you haven't personally experienced it doesn't mean that Jewish Orthodoxy isn't a huge civil rights problem. It's worse than Christian fundamentalism in the states.

I'm really not in the mood to give a lecture on how tzniut is that much more than just covering and it most definitely isn't archaic. The bus thing? Listen. You have your men, you have your women. Tzniut dictates that they are separate. Someone has to be in the back. I can almost guarantee that if the men were in the back, there'd be no discussion here. The reason that the women are in the back has nothiung to do with inferiority.

Yes it is archaic, it is by dictionary definition. It is a very old tradition that roots back centuries.

Women and men aren't seen as equals. Women are supposed to be "protected" and their modesty is maintained by force because like Islam, Jewish conservative traditions are based on the concept that men are hypersexualized uncontrollable beings who cannot control themselves and women are the evil temptation that causes men to do wrong so they must be protected. That is not an "equal" view, nor is that a view that respects women, it's men deciding female behavior instead of the person deciding their behavior themselves. Just because it's not obvious opression doesn't mean it's not an act of controlling the perceived inferior. You're not considered wise or strong enough to act for yourself, so men will do the work for you. All abrahamic traditions have this to some extent, even Christians had similar laws segregating women for "their own good".

The greater problem is that the Orthodoxy is getting very pushy in pushing very old traditions onto a secular nation that has seeked to be evolved past a very old patriarchical society dominated by old male rabbis and theocrats. Though i'm not Jewish or Israeli, it's not very hard to see that there are serious religious culture clashes going on right now between the religious and the secular in Israel, from the Israeli/Palestine conflict to micromanaging bus seating order.

[GunsmithKitten]

madametrixie

Inscriven

Have you not seen the news coming from Israel? The Jewish orthodoxy is stomping on alot of nerves on the greater secular society with stupid archaic things like demanding women be covered, or moving back to the bus.

Hell, they even got a medical summit thing to cave in and ban female doctors from being a part of a seminar on OB/Gynecology.

Just because you haven't personally experienced it doesn't mean that Jewish Orthodoxy isn't a huge civil rights problem. It's worse than Christian fundamentalism in the states.

I'm really not in the mood to give a lecture on how tzniut is that much more than just covering and it most definitely isn't archaic. The bus thing? Listen. You have your men, you have your women. Tzniut dictates that they are separate. Someone has to be in the back. I can almost guarantee that if the men were in the back, there'd be no discussion here. The reason that the women are in the back has nothiung to do with inferiority.

The ******** is with the surge of segregationists lately?! Sheesh.

Okay then, sunshine, why does it have to be the women getting the short end of that stick? Sell me here.

[Demyan The Devil]

vamperus

I read a blog about a women who went to Israel and sat in the front of a bus, the men asked her to move to the back because by sitting in the front she was saying she was "as ugly as a man". I don't know if that's true, but that's what I read.

That sounds more like douchebaggery than sexism.

[Lucky~9~Lives]

Melly Kwistmass

vamperus

I read a blog about a women who went to Israel and sat in the front of a bus, the men asked her to move to the back because by sitting in the front she was saying she was "as ugly as a man". I don't know if that's true, but that's what I read.

That sounds more like douchebaggery than sexism.

You make it sound like douchebaggery and sexism are mutually exclusive.

[Demyan The Devil]

Eh, you have a point.

[Tam_003]

I imagine it's the same reason that people think 'all christians are rednecks', and 'all asians are good at math'. People seem to make the assumption that just because someone of a certain background does a certin thing, then every one of that background does it.

[Gonecrazy12345]

Aren't the Orthodox Jews in Israel the ones who are complaining about teenage girls dressing inappropriately (meaning they show a bit of cleavage). Furthermore I think the same group of people are the ones who are arguing that men and women should walk on opposite sides of the street.

[Lokshen]

The Willow Of Darkness

I Refute Berkeley Thus

TrueLore

I Refute Berkeley Thus

The Willow Of Darkness

I think I shall have to roast you for this one.

Sexism and equality are just two incommensurate modes of discourse, with neither to be preferred over the other. Respect other cultures; your hegemonic Western views do not need to be imposed on others.

There is no reason why I should simply respect other cultures.

Bigot.

Yes, in this instance it is appropriate to be a bigot.

Awwww so your lot are free to be as racist as you please?

How very convenient.

[The Willow Of Darkness]

Lokshen

The Willow Of Darkness

I Refute Berkeley Thus

TrueLore

I Refute Berkeley Thus

The Willow Of Darkness

I think I shall have to roast you for this one.

Sexism and equality are just two incommensurate modes of discourse, with neither to be preferred over the other. Respect other cultures; your hegemonic Western views do not need to be imposed on others.

There is no reason why I should simply respect other cultures.

Bigot.

Yes, in this instance it is appropriate to be a bigot.

Awwww so your lot are free to be as racist as you please?

How very convenient.

Not racist, it refers to a culture, not a gourd of a certain skin colour(though one can often act as the cause for the other, as culture differences can often fall, at least in perception, to be divided on skin colour lines).

Not as culturalist as we please, no, as it is only certain cultural elements that are unacceptable.

But otherwise yes, that is the nature of morality. If you don't want people oppressing women, you suppress it and consider it unacceptable. Just as if you don't want bombings going off all over the city, you suppress ideas that cause people to take such action.