is abortion a right thing to do?

[Asexual-Slut~Enya]

cuttyikari

I am not forcing anyone to be a parent!!!
For one it's not my decision whether to have you know what i am taking about... or not
GO AND READ MY OTHER POST SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM THANKING ABOUT

A consent to sexual intercourse doesn't/shouldn't imply a consent to pregnancy, nor to the continuation of said pregnancy should it come to that, so I'm not entirely sure where you are going with this.

Let me ask you a question: If a woman were to find herself pregnant, would you then force her to raise the resulting offspring?

[Asexual-Slut~Enya]

cuttyikari

Are you sure about that?

this one came from THE
OFFICE OF THE UNITED NATIONS HIGH COMMISSION FOR HUMAN RIGHTS
Declaration of the Rights of the Child
Proclaimed by General Assembly resolution 1386(XIV) of 20 November 1959

Principle 2

The child shall enjoy special protection, and shall be given opportunities and facilities, by law and by other means, to enable him to develop physically, mentally, morally, spiritually and socially in a healthy and normal manner and in conditions of freedom and dignity. In the enactment of laws for this purpose, the best interests of the child shall be the paramount consideration.

Convention Abbreviation: CRC
COMMITTEE ON THE RIGHTS OF THE CHILD

General principles

(b) Best interests of the child (art. 3);

(c) The right to life, survival and development (art. 6);

That doesn't indicate a "right to be born" to me. Besides, using the very same source, it is easy to argue a pro-choice stance:

Lord Setar

Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 3

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and the security of person.

While it could be argued that the fetus is granted the right to life, it is still not granted the right to violate the woman's right to security of the person, under Articles 7 and 30:

UDHR, Article 7

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against all types of discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to any form of discrimination.

UDHR, Article 30

Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

The woman is thus entitled to protection against discrimination in violation of the Declaration; in this case the violation of her right to security of the person brought on by the unwanted residency of the fetus in her uterus. This is what is called initial violation - the fetus cannot be protected under Article 3 owing to violating the woman's Article 3 rights and thus invoking Article 7. To prevent a continued violation, the woman is thus entitled to an abortion as soon as is safely possible. This also prevents states from invoking waiting periods and mandatory counselling, as this would be preventing the woman from defending her Article 3 rights.

Measures by the State to restrict abortion in any way also violate Article 30, as they are made in attempt to destroy the woman's right to security of the person under Article 3. The woman is not the initial violator, the fetus is, and thus it is the woman who is granted the right to protection from the Article 3 violation. Protection from a violation includes defending oneself from a violation, and as such abortion is, under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, entitled defense of Article 3 rights through Article 7, and the State cannot in any way attempt to restrict the woman's right to an abortion without falling into violation of Article 30.

I hope this is worded well, as it is 1:30 AM and I'm tired. Either way, I feel that this would be an amazing addition to the thread, as I have only in the last month used the UDHR to back up abortion as self-defense and only now did I do a little extra reading into the document. There are a few other articles that may have relevance as well:

Article 4 - forced pregnancy can be seen as servitude
Article 5 - "punishment" for consenting to sex being having to carry to term, give birth and raise the child
Article 17 (2) - your body is your property, thus being forced to carry the fetus against your will would logically be deprivation of property. I personally feel that this has the strongest relevance and basis

[Ki Arcayne]

Really, morals need to be thrown out of the calculations here, seeing as everyones individual set of morals are based upon childhood experiences and how they were raised. To me, a person raised in the church but fell into a self-reform, abortion is ok depending on the circumstances. Abortion shouldnt be used as a "Oops" or a "Backdoor" to get out of something that you made a mistake on, such as having sex without a condom on. There are many places you can get free condoms, so saying there arent enough condoms to go around, or that you dont have the money is voided.

Abortion is really just the individuals choice. Everyone can throw their two cents into the pile, but in the end, its the womans decision.

@Asexual-Slut~Enya: Add me to your fanlist! : D

[linaloki]

Nietzsche

cuttyikari

Nietzsche

cuttyikari

you shouldn't do it !!!
It's immoral and an irresponsible doing

Explain the 'irresponsible' bit, because that's just...weird.

IN THE TEN COMMANDMENTS OF GOD

NUMBER 6. Thou shalt not kill.

In aborting your child you committed a moral sin and killed the life of you child that is immoral for me.
For irresponsibility part in every step you make or decisions you take theirs a corresponding consequences that you should face because it you own doing not by anybody else but you...and besides you know from that very start you yourself that having or doing such you know what i am talking about ... will lead to pregnancy in anyway you view it..it will still lead to that...
and under going to pregnancy is just a big responsibility for one you are not dealing with a thing but a life not a thing the you can damp in any where you want to because it your own responsibility and not by others your own son or daughter or abort the life that you have in side of you is not just right and for one legally that child of your has a right from the very first stage of your pregnancy until you give birth to that child he or she has the right to be born and have an education and ect... legally and morally it is not right
and being able to raise a child is just a big thing

There's no legal right to be born, and you still haven't said why it's irresponsible. Then again, I'm not sure you know much about responsibility, since you seem to think if babies are unwanted it's tough luck on them and they should be forced to live in unloved squalor as often as possible.

There isn't a commandment that says don't kill. That'd be pretty dumb, since the laws in Leviticus, Exodus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers tell you to stone people to death if they do x. You fail.

[linaloki]

cuttyikari

linaloki

cuttyikari

you shouldn't do it !!!
It's immoral and an irresponsible doing
and besides it's you own child take it as a blessing from heaven not as a burden that you should be taking care of...
whether the father doesn't want it or want it it's still your child
if the father does not want that child it only saws what kind of a person he is the one who don't want any responsibility and immoral person that should be killed not the child because the child doesn't have any faults on why on earth he or she came to life and if is it financial difficulty you are doing such thing you SHOULDN'T Do it there are alot of agencies that can help you on facing it and your government is there to support you in any way they can and surely your parents are there to help you and the child besides it's their grandson or granddaughter ok!
so don't do it!!! whee redface

You call a child a blessing from heaven... but you say it's okay to dump it in an adoption center?

Hypocrite.

did I say that in what part of my statement did i mention it?
I just say that their are alot of agencies that can help her in terms of financial problems and emotional distress
AND PUTTING A CHILD IN THE ADAPTION CENTER IS NOT RIGHT FOR ME FOR ONE IT'S YOUR CHILD NOT A POOR KITTEN THAT YOU CAN DAMP IT ANYWHERE YOU WANT TO IT A HUMAN BEING

Oh, okay. My mistake. It's good to know that you'd rather force the child to stay in an abusive household then let it get put up for adoption or aborted.

[linaloki]

And, because it should be posted... How the Bible does NOT condemn abortion and, somehow, seems to be alright with it in the forced miscarriage kinda way.

linaloki

What may very well be a possibly overwhelming majority of Christians stand by the idea that abortion is a sin. Many go much further than that, calling it murder and a crime against God. However, no theological argument is really very good without some grounds in the Holy Texts being argued within. Therefore, pro-lifers have strenuously searched for verses to be construed as anti-abortion. Here are some of the more popular ones:

1)

Genesis 9:5-7, NIV

And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.
Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.
As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it.

2)

Exodus 20:13, KJV

Thou shalt not kill.

3)

Psalms 139:13-14, NIV

For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

There are a number of other, less used verses, such as “Blood is life” etcetera. However, all of these minor verses can be debunked by taking a quick look at these major verses in context of the Bible and debunking them.

1) The first verse quoted has two arguments in it. First is the “don’t shed a man’s blood, or by man shall your blood be shed” argument. This can be easily debunked by looking at the laws created by God in the books of Deuteronomy, Exodus, or Leviticus. In verses such as Exodus 21:22-25, we can clearly see that not only is a fetus not considered “man”, but the punishment for accidental miscarriage is merely a fine. A fetus is property!

Exodus 21:22-25, NIV

If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely, but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

The second argument in those verses is that we are commanded to be fruitful and multiply, and abortion doesn’t do that. However, that was directed at Noah and his family after the flood. We can see in the New Testament that, as Paul says, virginity is okay, despite the fact that staying a virgin is not being fruitful and multiplying.

2) The verse “Thou shall not kill” was quoted from the KJV for a reason. Most other modern translations don’t have that error. The correct translation, as seen in the NIV, is “Thou shall not murder” (emphasis added). As we can see, again referring to the Jewish law, the punishment for murder is always death. However, the punishment for killing a fetus is a fine. Those two punishments aren’t quite the same.

3) The knitting verses, both in Psalms and similar ones in Job, are an extremely popular Biblical ammunition for pro-lifers. However, they fail to take into account something: the soul. It is obvious through natural miscarriages as well as several Bible verses that the fetus does not have a soul. Adam’s creation was not complete until God breathed into him and gave him a soul. In Ezekiel, the same thing occurs in a vision he has.

Ezekiel 37:9, NIV

Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’"

The bones needed breath to live. There are a number of verses that show God using miscarriage as punishment, and allowing the Jews to kill infants in wars. Also, Jewish law stated that a baby was not even considered a person until at least 30 days of survival.

Rabbi Balfour Brickner, National Director of the Commission on Interfaith Activities

Jewish law is quite clear in its statement that an embryo is not reckoned a viable living thing (in Hebrew, bar kayama) until thirty days after its birth. One is not allowed to observe the Laws of Mourning for an expelled fetus. As a matter of fact, these Laws are not applicable for a child who does not survive until his thirtieth day.

Knowing these things, that God consistently does not consider a fetus a person throughout the entirety of the Old Testament (which is to be noted the only place pro-lifers tend to get their verses), and that breath is required for the soul, we can safely say that being pro-choice is not a grievous sin in the eyes of God. And if a pro-lifer ever gives you major troubles about your beliefs, this verse is a great way to make them stay quiet.

2 Timothy 2:23-24, NIV

Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.

[WitheringRoseOfDecay]

Exotic Guy

No! Definitely no!
Its A Sin
You're Carrying A LIfe of Someone....

sin is a religious concept and religion doesn't belong in this issue. the fetus is not yet a 'someone', as a 'someone' is born.

[WitheringRoseOfDecay]

cuttyikari

you shouldn't do it !!!
It's immoral and an irresponsible doing

says who? you? don't think so dear. you know what's irresponsible? birthing a child because you think you HAVE to.

Quote:

and besides it's you own child take it as a blessing from heaven not as a burden that you should be taking care of...

a fetus is not a child. heaven is a religious concept, that doesn't belong in this issue. and i'm sorry, but you have NO RIGHT to tell another woman what she should do.

[Peaceful Revolution]

No, abortion esta a la izquierda.

Religion /=/ government.

Killing /=/ murder. Murder = killing.

[Noora of God]

Far too many abortion topics. It was first legalized in the UK, however it remains to this day illegal in Ireland.

I think one of the reasons Pro-Life is ticked off is that the lawmaking was done by the Supreme Court and was not put to a vote by the States.

I live in Washington State and this was one of the first state in the Nation to have abortion, even before Roe v. Wade. Also my mother had a mid term abortion in 1958 in Seattle.

So we have always lived with abortion and it is hard to imagine a time when there was no abortion, if that time ever existed, it was mostly for women who lacked means to afford a physician who would find a way to do this for her.

From a Catholic Christian standpoint, all life is sacred and we revere life from conception.

Many of our own do not understand orthodox Catholicism because we haven't been learning it for 30 years. We are experiencing a renewal of orthodoxy now.

They church does this over and over. We have times when we fall away and need to correct our course. So in many ways the heated Pro-Life speakers are reacting against a sustained time period of poor catechesis. This combined with protestant and unchurched people who feel the Supreme Court should not have ursurped their right to vote on abortion is fueling this endless schism between conservative or traditionalist women and progressive women.

I have only begun to address this subject. I've got at least 2,000 more posts to go. 4laugh

Please feel free to ask me to clarify anything I have written in this post that is confusing or which does not make sense to you.

I am writing this to all readers, not just to the OP nor to the above post.

"The Queen of the South shall rise again for she came from the ends of the earth to learn the wisdom of Solomon. And behold, a greater than Solomon is here!"

[The Dark Thought]

Prove to me the existence of the soul, and only after you can use concepts of religion as an arguement against it.

[Captain Shortbeard]

i think that if you dont support abortion....

THEN DONT GET ONE!!!!

[Nostradomes]

It may not necessarily be right because you might be killing the next genius but in some situations it is needed because if you do not have the resources to take care of the child then you do not need one. Thats only if your not playing it safe, but then there is also the rape issue to take into consideration too.

[Kick In The South]

At rough times it is neccassary..for example teenage pregnancy. Children shouldn't be allowed to have children unless there needs to be an increase in population. But it would be pretty rough for a child in modern times to raise a baby I think, even under the proper guidance.

[WitheringRoseOfDecay]

yengers

i don't think abortion is the answer for any unwated pregnancy...remember that you're killing a child when you do that...much more killing you're own child...if you're not ready with it you might thought about it in the first place...
actually it's not a solution...its just another problem...and anything that is bad is not an answer to an existing problem...

abortions don't involve children. they involve a fetus or an embryo. consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. and whether or not abortion is 'bad' is an opinion and not a fact. don't like abortions? don't get one!