Marauder_Slade
Asexual-Slut~Enya
Were I to have been aborted I would not have been aware that anything had happened.
I dissagree - everyone is entitled to their opinion & mine is that all miscarrages & abortions go to heaven (Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. - Mt 19:14) with no chance of comming back to earth in another body ("As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more." - Job 7:9). So similar to my adopted parents explaining to me that my mother didn't want me the baby in heaven will also have the same thing explained to them.
And I am to presume that heaven is worse than a life here on Earth? I had always been taught that heaven was a paradise of sorts.
Marauder_Slade
Asexual-Slut~Enya
To be brutally honest, this is, by far, the worst attempt at a slippery slope that I have ever seen, and I have seen more than my fair share.
like I said everyone is entitled to their opinion - mine is that there is no difference between a fetus & a person so there should be no difference between pre-birth abortions & post-birth abortions.
Even if one presumes that the embryo/fetus is a person, the circumstances are, obviously, very different.
It is probably fairly safe to presume that a neonate, infant, child, or adolescent isn't violating the bodily integrity/autonomy/domain of the woman in question. And, even if this were the case, there are, probably, other, more viable, alternatives that wouldn't result in the death of the neonate/infant/child/adolescent.
The same, however, cannot be said of the embryo/fetus, which is, at all times (presuming the woman has no desire to carry it to term) violating the woman's bodily integrity/autonomy/domain. And, further, barring some potential in the late-term, there are no viable alternatives to an abortion -- for that reason, the use of lethal force is justifiable.
Marauder_Slade
I believe that post-birth abortions are even more logical than the pre-birth variety, because before the child is born, they didn't do anything to deserve to die yet, but after they are born you can make a judgement based on their charecter & you would really know if you made a mistake by bringing them into the world & wether the world would be a better place without them in it.
And this presumes that an abortion is a means of punishing the embryo/fetus -- it isn't. An abortion is, at its core, a means of preserving the integrity/autonomy/domain of the woman in question -- any other means by which she justifies her decision is nothing more than icing on the proverbial cake.
Marauder_Slade
Actually I was being a wise-a** - 10 x out of 10 a fetus will turn into a person, it's not like it will turn into a frog.
Or, you know, it could turn into ash as it is incinerated by a large "kiln."
Marauder_Slade
The rights of the fetus/mother & whose overrides whose is a matter of opinion
When legislation is being founded on the premise that certain rights are deemed to be more important than others, then, no, it is not merely a matter of opinion.
Marauder_Slade
I don't think that either should override the other but I believe that as soon as the sperm & egg join & the cells start to multiply it is life & therefore abortion is murder - that is why I say that there is no difference between pre & post birth abortion in my mind.
Just so we are clear, you believe that a person's perceived right to live supersedes another person's right to personal integrity/autonomy/domain, correct?
Could you explain why?
Marauder_Slade
Now I believe that stepping on a bug is wrong, doesn't stop me from doing it. I am not perfect but I just don't like calling abortion a "termination" of a "fetus" - call a spade a spade - it is a "murder" of a "baby" in my opinion & I am not saying that it is never an option but just like if someone broke into your house I think killing that person should be a last resort. If people don't think that a "fetus" is a "baby" then they can convince themselves that it is not wrong to "terminate".
As far as I am concerned, abortion and murder are not conceptually synonymous. On one hand, we have a justifiable application of lethal force, and, on the other hand, we have an unjustifiable killing of a human person.
And, I find it odd that you would support the use of lethal force under circumstances that involve an unwanted intrusion of your physical property, but you don't support such force under circumstances that involve a direct intrusion of your own body. Can you explain?
Marauder_Slade
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them." 139 Ps 15-16
What? You have provided no context for this particular quote and, further, you haven't even offered the name of the source from which this quote derives.
What am I supposed to make of this?
Marauder_Slade
No I can't. Without the bible I don't have a leg to stand on. I heard a saying - opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. Whereas the bible is not opinion (in my opinion lol) it is the word of God & it does not change so it offers me some security & stability in this chaotic world & I believe it when it says "let God be true, but every man a liar" - Rom 3:4.
And for those of us who do not ascribe to your faith? What reason do we have to adhere to your scriptures?
Marauder_Slade
Opinion - & you can read what I just said about those.
That isn't opinion -- it is medical fact (Well, it is debated; but, the premise is still rooted in empirical evidence.).
Fetal Cognitive Capacity
This website contradicts the statement that the fetus can hear what is going on while in the uterus.
Times Online – I Didn’t Hear a Thing Mummy
Can the fetus feel pain?
In the first trimester, it pretty much goes without question that the fetus cannot feel pain.
The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
Statement on Pain of the Fetus
We know of no legitimate scientific information that supports the statement that a fetus experiences pain early in pregnancy.
We do know that the cerebellum attains its final configuration in the seventh month and that mylenization (or covering) of the spinal cord and the brain begins between the 20th and 40th weeks of pregnancy. These, as well as other neurological developments, would have to be in place for the fetus to receive pain.
To feel pain, a fetus needs neurotransmitted hormones. In animals, these complex chemicals develop in the last third of gestation. We know of no evidence that humans are different.
Whether fetii can feel pain in the late-term, however, is highly debatable; but, there are developmental scientists who do not believe that the fetus can feel pain at such time.
"The neural circuitry needed to process pain is complete, if not mature, by 26 weeks' gestation... "From about 26 weeks you can talk about there being a complete system in terms of biology, a link from the skin to the spinal cord to the brain, and we know that set-up is reasonably functional," Derbyshire explained...But to properly experience pain, the mind must also be developed, something which cannot happen until after birth. The mind permits the subjectivity of pain...I agree that pain is a complex sensory experience that requires activation of many regions of the cerebral cortex and that 'Without consciousness there can be nociception [response to noxious events] but there cannot be pain,'" Ralston said. "I do not know when that necessary neural circuitry is fully developed and functional, but it certainly is not established by 20 weeks gestational age, as encoded in legislation in several states in laws penalizing physicians for not informing mothers about pain in their fetuses."
Forbes
Professor David Mellor, the physiologist who carried out the research, believes such concerns are unwarranted and that fetuses cannot feel anything before or during birth. He will present his findings at a conference on animal sentience that is being organized by Compassion in World Farming (CIWF) in London next month.
In a paper that will be published in an academic journal, Mellor will suggest that in mammals the fetal brain is kept in a deep sleep throughout pregnancy by a combination of natural sedatives and anesthetics secreted by the brain and placenta.
"Consciousness appears for the first time after birth. We conclude the embryo and fetus cannot suffer before or during birth. Suffering can only occur in the newborn when the onset of breathing oxygenates its tissues," Mellor said.
Times Online
Pain perception requires conscious recognition or awareness of a noxious stimulus. Neither withdrawal reflexes nor hormonal stress responses to invasive procedures prove the existence of fetal pain, because they can be elicited by nonpainful stimuli and occur without conscious cortical processing. Fetal awareness of noxious stimuli requires functional thalamocortical connections. Thalamocortical fibers begin appearing between 23 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, while electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in preterm neonates probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks. For fetal surgery, women may receive general anesthesia and/or analgesics intended for placental transfer, and parenteral opioids may be administered to the fetus under direct or sonographic visualization. In these circumstances, administration of anesthesia and analgesia serves purposes unrelated to reduction of fetal pain, including inhibition of fetal movement, prevention of fetal hormonal stress responses, and induction of uterine atony.
Journal of the American Medical Association
Pain experience is now widely seen as a consequence of an amalgam of cognition, sensation, and affective processes, commonly described under the rubric of the biopsychosocial model of pain. Pain is no longer regarded as merely a physical sensation of noxious stimulus and disease, but is seen as a conscious experience that may be modulated by mental, emotional, and sensory mechanisms with sensory and emotional components. The biopsychosocial concept emphasizes the multidimensional nature of illness, injury, and pain, rather than emphasizing pain as a purely physical fact of illness or injury. Pain has been described as a multidimensional phenomena for some time, and this understanding is reflected in the current IASP definition of pain as “an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage”.
A further reason to doubt the viability of fetal pain post-26 weeks’ gestation is the development of the fetal cortex. Although the thalamocortical fibers penetrate the cortical plate at approximately 26 weeks’ gestation, the cortical regions that have been identified as important in processing the various components of pain do not become fully responsive until after birth.
American Pain Society
Fitzgerald believes that responses to noxious stimuli before 26 weeks cannot be interpreted as pain because the "cortex is not a functional unit." After 26 weeks, however, we are left to consider whether the biological development of the fetus is so advanced that it may begin to experience pain. Whether the fetus feels pain, however, hinges not on its biological development but on its conscious development. Unless it can be shown that the fetus has a conscious appreciation of pain after 26 weeks, then the responses to noxious stimulation must still essentially be reflex, exactly as before 26 weeks.
British Medical Journal -- BMJ
Although debate continues about whether, and if so when, the fetus can experience pain, current mainstream professional guidance suggests that a fetus cannot begin to have the possibility of experiencing pain until after 26 weeks’ gestation. This view is reflected in practical guidance on the use of analgesia during invasive procedures carried out on the fetus in utero. The BMA’s view is that even if there is no incontrovertible evidence that fetuses experience pain, the use of pain relief, when carrying out invasive procedures, may help to relieve the anxiety of the parents and of health professionals.
British Medical Association
Marauder_Slade
In the picture you posted it looks like it has a heart already...
And that entitles it a right to the woman's bodily resources?
Marauder_Slade rolled 1 20-sided dice:
14
Total: 14 (1-20)
