If you are against gay marriage, you are a bad Christian.

[Ananel]

Servus Dei

Ananel

Or the 12 tribes

Except, of course, that the verse comes right out and says 12 Apostles. You are just grasping at straws now, Ananel.

My apologies: I was referring to the gates and associating them with the fruit of chapter 22, not to the foundations. There was a trifling small amount of confusion that resulted there.

Mind you: I am not denying that the apostles are the foundation of the faith. To deny that would deny the day of Pentecost itself. However, that foundation does not translate from scripture into a direct indication that one foundation is a cornerstone and that his authority is passed through the Roman bishopry to the modern era as a unique authority, rather than the 12 apostles as the equaliteral foundation which represents the initial beginning of the church and the whole of the universal church.

Servus Dei

Quote:

We've also been over my views of Matthew 16

I don't really care what your views are. The point is clear that when Christ said "Upon you I shall build my Church," he meant it literally. Apocalypse 21 says as much. "Upon this foundation I shall build my Church." "The city had 12 foundations, upon which were inscribed the name of the 12 Apostles."

"Upon this rock."

Don't change the text. That's eisegesis of the highest order.

[Servus Dei]

Ananel

Mind you: I am not denying that the apostles are the foundation of the faith. To deny that would deny the day of Pentecost itself. However, that foundation does not translate from scripture into a direct indication that one foundation is a cornerstone and that his authority is passed through the Roman bishopry to the modern era as a unique authority, rather than the 12 apostles as the equaliteral foundation which represents the initial beginning of the church and the whole of the universal church.

Dude, you are taking each verse in isolation. You can't do that. Taken together, the meaning is clear.

[Ananel]

Servus Dei

Dude, you are taking each verse in isolation. You can't do that. Taken together, the meaning is clear.

Not in isolation. I related each verse to each other and to the teachings of Christ concerning the Water of Life. We operate under different hermeneutics, Barraketh. You and I both know this. My biggest issue that I take with you is that you use your hermeneutic itself to prove that your hermeneutic is correct (Using the Minesterium's word to verify that the Minesterium is correct, for example).

I see a different association operative between three of the four verses, and consider them unrelated to Matthew 16, which you still misstated and did not justify doing from a translational perspective. There is a difference between "this rock" and "you."

[Servus Dei]

Ananel

I see a different association operative between three of the four verses, and consider them unrelated to Matthew 16, which you still misstated and did not justify doing from a translational perspective. There is a difference between "this rock" and "you."

"Upon this rock I shall build my church." "Which was built upon 12 foundations, in which were inscribed the names of the 12 Apostles."

How can you not consider that related?

[No No Raja]

Servus Dei

Ananel

I see a different association operative between three of the four verses, and consider them unrelated to Matthew 16, which you still misstated and did not justify doing from a translational perspective. There is a difference between "this rock" and "you."

"Upon this rock I shall build my church." "Which was built upon 12 foundations, in which were inscribed the names of the 12 Apostles."

How can you not consider that related?

Look who's back.

Would you mind telling me how those two verses are related?

[Servus Dei]

Saltski Circe

Look who's back.

Would you mind telling me how those two verses are related?

Are you people blind?

Upon this rock (foundation) I will build my Church

The New Jerusalem was build upon twelve foundations (rocks), inscribed with the names of the 12 Apostles.

How can you not see the relation?

[No No Raja]

Servus Dei

Saltski Circe

Look who's back.

Would you mind telling me how those two verses are related?

Are you people blind?

Upon this rock (foundation) I will build my Church

The New Jerusalem was build upon twelve foundations (rocks), inscribed with the names of the 12 Apostles.

How can you not see the relation?

But it's a ROCK. Not ROCKS. ROCK.

It was an implication that Peter was to be the first Pope of the Church. Note the POPE, as in the ROCK. Not the POPES. The other twelve apostles were to be representative of the twelve tribes of Israel.

And before you say anything, I went to a Catholic school for eight years of my life. ******** waste of time, but it comes in useful when arguing things like this.

And you know what's funny?

Those twelve tribes the apostles were to represent--INCLUDING Peter--were JEWISH.

Hmmmm.

[linaloki]

Funny thing about these verses being debated...

Jesus didn't say, "On you I shall found the Catholic Church." He said church. No denomination. Basically, Jesus would use Peter to found the organization for believers, which he did as mentioned in Acts. Peter's church was called catholic, meaning universal. It did not become the Catholic Church until Rome integrated it into the Empire. And another funny thing...

You have yet to prove, Servus, that non-Biblical dogmas are adherent to the basic beliefs of Christianity. If they are, then why aren't the Mormons right? Or the Jehova's Witnesses? Or Muslims? Because they don't follow the Pope?

Which is the next point you haven't proven... Why can the current Holy See say a prior Pope was incorrect? The Holy See is infallible... Is the current Holy See more infallible than the previous one or somesuch?

Also, why must one talk to a priest for sins to be forgiven? What gives only priests authority?

What makes the indulgences so right to you? Didn't Jesus get really pissed when people started selling stuff in the house of his Father?

I've got more points, but I figure you'll have a nice time dodging these.

[darkestshadows666]

Anyone who votes against gay marriage is a bad person in general with no well being for their fellow man and look upon homosexuals as not equal.

[ty_ping]

Servus Dei

Ananel

Your teaching does not make you a bad Christian

I should have expected this from a heretic.

Lemme ask you this: If you believe that being a Christian first and foremost involves a right faith of Christ, then how can you say that one can be a good Christian without a right faith?

HI SCOLASTIC!

[ty_ping]

Servus Dei

Toga! Toga!

Servus Dei

You are misapplying the verse.

Do explain.

It said not to judge someone outside of the group of believers. It didn't say to condone them, or to legislate in their favor.

Many will complain that by not standing against something you stand for it, however you do not have to take a position to stand.
You do not stand for their decision, for it is not your decision to approve.
You do not stand against their decision for it is not your decision to dis-aprove. You cannot look upon a man and say "Brother I love you but I hate your existance" How can you love someone yet hate their actions? How can there ever be love when they have been marred by that hate? Love is not approval, love is not permission, love is not saying "do this or do that" Love simply IS. And to pesonally or even with any justification say something is right or wrong in your or even God's view is to make a Judgement call on God. Is not makeing that distinguishing line between loving the sinner and hatng the sin making a judgement on them and what their sin is? Are you not casting the first stone declairing them somehoe less worthy then you, less of a being then you? Somehow more foul and more sinful and thus less worthy to make their own decisions in life? Is this not Arrogance? Is this not Pride? Consider your own planks before harping over the speaks of others.

[ty_ping]

jesusfreakbuddy

Hey yal.....
Sorry but i dont think it is right to be gay...thats why God made women and men!!!

I'm a Hermaphrodite, Who made me and who am I supposed to marry?

[ty_ping]

Servus Dei

Toga! Toga!

There you go, you're interfering. You're making something illegal, encouraging people not to do it, and persecuting them for not listening.

We have a different idea of what counts as "interfering" and/or "judging" goes.

You judge that something is bad and therefore make it illegal, if you did not judge either you would hold no opinion, or a positive opinion out of lack of any real reason (lack of judgement) to go against it.

[jaden kendam]

ty_ping

jesusfreakbuddy

Hey yal.....
Sorry but i dont think it is right to be gay...thats why God made women and men!!!

I'm a Hermaphrodite, Who made me and who am I supposed to marry?

Uhm...my best guess is your parents, unless you believe in YHWH and that he created everything, then he created you. And you are not supposed to marry anyone, but if you choose to marry someone, it should be someone who loves you.

I know, bad DMJ for thinking of The Law of Agape while writing that. Shame on me.

[ty_ping]

Servus Dei

Marshal67

The point is not how sex is had, but the outcome of the decision made resulting in no children.

Why the hell would I care about outcomes? Believing in Christianity once upon a time had an outcome of death.

So did believing in Judaism, Paganism, Islam and oh evey other religion on the planet.
Go take your persecution complex elsewhere Christians are the least deserving of it.