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Totrue-Tufaar
Lord Setar
What's so bad about the last one?

You don't question the other two? It is undermining the individual churches, the feelings of those in it, and ignores Scipture. They churchmembers wish to have someone a to be able to listen to without being a blaring hypocrite. The examples I gave would be of priests being actively practing, unrepentedly sins. Having the council change the rules of ordainment just so that they can get in it doesn't help.


Except being homosexual, and even having homosexual sex if married, is not a sin.

Totrue-Tufaar
Lord Setar
What's so bad about this?

Infantcide is not a good thing. Why should the head honchos be putting money into something that the people don't support, believe is a sin, etc.


While the "head honchos" probably should listen to the voice of the people, abortion is not a sin, and abortion is not infanticide.
 
     
 
linaloki
Animals. Then...

Old Testament. In the section about incest and laying with a man as you would a woman.

linaloki
Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. God never said Adam + Eve was good, or even very good. You are wrong. We are NOT created for such a relationship, as Jesus points out in his lesson about "eunuchs," or people not meant to marry women. Further, David. Solomon. Jacob. None had one wife. They had more than one. They were all blessed and part of the lineage of Joseph, Mary's husband.


They were also of Mary's lineage. And did you READ what happened to Jacob and Solomon due to having multiple wives and scouting for new ones? David killed a man of absolute loyalty and devotion to cover his crime when the soldier refused to take time off to sleep with his wife, instead insisting on guarding his King. Went down hill from there. And Solomon began to lose faith in God as he would do religious things for his many wives.
     
Totrue-Tufaar
linaloki
Animals. Then...

Old Testament. In the section about incest and laying with a man as you would a woman.


...What's your point here?

Totrue-Tufaar
linaloki
Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. God never said Adam + Eve was good, or even very good. You are wrong. We are NOT created for such a relationship, as Jesus points out in his lesson about "eunuchs," or people not meant to marry women. Further, David. Solomon. Jacob. None had one wife. They had more than one. They were all blessed and part of the lineage of Joseph, Mary's husband.


They were also of Mary's lineage. And did you READ what happened to Jacob and Solomon due to having multiple wives and scouting for new ones? David killed a man of absolute loyalty and devotion to cover his crime when the soldier refused to take time off to sleep with his wife, instead insisting on guarding his King. Went down hill from there. And Solomon began to lose faith in God as he would do religious things for his many wives.


Solomon screwed up, yes. But Bathsheba, the woman from David's error, was Solomon's mother, continuing the lineage. Not to mention, that wasn't David's multiple wives that did that. That was his lust. Unless you're talking about something totally different.

And nothing bad happened to Jacob. neutral

As for Mary's lineage, you have verses?
 
     
 
linaloki
Totrue-Tufaar
Lord Setar
What's so bad about the last one?

You don't question the other two? It is undermining the individual churches, the feelings of those in it, and ignores Scipture. They churchmembers wish to have someone a to be able to listen to without being a blaring hypocrite. The examples I gave would be of priests being actively practing, unrepentedly sins. Having the council change the rules of ordainment just so that they can get in it doesn't help.


Except being homosexual, and even having homosexual sex if married, is not a sin.

Totrue-Tufaar
Lord Setar
What's so bad about this?

Infantcide is not a good thing. Why should the head honchos be putting money into something that the people don't support, believe is a sin, etc.


While the "head honchos" probably should listen to the voice of the people, abortion is not a sin, and abortion is not infanticide.


Tell me, seriously, what do you consider sin to be? And why do you believe that people should have their alms diverted to actions they believe to be sins?
     
Totrue-Tufaar
linaloki
Totrue-Tufaar
Lord Setar
What's so bad about the last one?

You don't question the other two? It is undermining the individual churches, the feelings of those in it, and ignores Scipture. They churchmembers wish to have someone a to be able to listen to without being a blaring hypocrite. The examples I gave would be of priests being actively practing, unrepentedly sins. Having the council change the rules of ordainment just so that they can get in it doesn't help.


Except being homosexual, and even having homosexual sex if married, is not a sin.

Totrue-Tufaar
Lord Setar
What's so bad about this?

Infantcide is not a good thing. Why should the head honchos be putting money into something that the people don't support, believe is a sin, etc.


While the "head honchos" probably should listen to the voice of the people, abortion is not a sin, and abortion is not infanticide.


Tell me, seriously, what do you consider sin to be? And why do you believe that people should have their alms diverted to actions they believe to be sins?


What do I consider sin to be? Disobedience to and rejection of God and His teachings.

1) You'll note I said they should listen to the people. So I don't think that.
2) Just because the people believe it to be a sin does not make it so.
 
     
 
linaloki
Totrue-Tufaar
linaloki
Animals. Then...

Old Testament. In the section about incest and laying with a man as you would a woman.


...What's your point here?

Very clear that they are considered wrong. Write there in writing.

linaloki
Totrue-Tufaar
linaloki
Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. God never said Adam + Eve was good, or even very good. You are wrong. We are NOT created for such a relationship, as Jesus points out in his lesson about "eunuchs," or people not meant to marry women. Further, David. Solomon. Jacob. None had one wife. They had more than one. They were all blessed and part of the lineage of Joseph, Mary's husband.


They were also of Mary's lineage. And did you READ what happened to Jacob and Solomon due to having multiple wives and scouting for new ones? David killed a man of absolute loyalty and devotion to cover his crime when the soldier refused to take time off to sleep with his wife, instead insisting on guarding his King. Went down hill from there. And Solomon began to lose faith in God as he would do religious things for his many wives.


Solomon screwed up, yes. But Bathsheba, the woman from David's error, was Solomon's mother, continuing the lineage. Not to mention, that wasn't David's multiple wives that did that. That was his lust. Unless you're talking about something totally different.

And nothing bad happened to Jacob. neutral

As for Mary's lineage, you have verses?

What do you mean by "But Bathseda"? Did I say something wrong involving the lineage?

Luke 1:5 and 1:36. Mary was related to Elisabeth, who was of Aaron's lineage.

And Jacob? While perhaps not having it related to multiple wives Jacob had the the whole thing with his sons trying to kill their brother. And then being in great grief from it. And then the famine. Just to counter your "nothing bad" thing.
     
Totrue-Tufaar
linaloki
Totrue-Tufaar
linaloki
Animals. Then...

Old Testament. In the section about incest and laying with a man as you would a woman.


...What's your point here?

Very clear that they are considered wrong. Write there in writing.


Still not catching your point. Are you saying that affects the fact that God created animals for Adam's companionship, first?

Also, do you believe Adam and Eve were the only humans created by God and we are all of their lineage?

Totrue-Tufaar
What do you mean by "But Bathseda"? Did I say something wrong involving the lineage?


I was saying that Bathsheba, the woman David lusted for and sinned in obtaining, was Solomon's mother, making her part of the lineage. If David had only had one wife, no lineage.

Totrue-Tufaar
Luke 1:5 and 1:36. Mary was related to Elisabeth, who was of Aaron's lineage.


Yet, in the first chapter of Matthew, Aaron is never mentioned in that lineage. neutral

Totrue-Tufaar
And Jacob? While perhaps not having it related to multiple wives Jacob had the the whole thing with his sons trying to kill their brother. And then being in great grief from it. And then the famine. Just to counter your "nothing bad" thing.


How is the sons being dicks to each other related to his multiple wives? Cain and Abel kinda messed up, and Adam didn't have more than 1 wife. Your comparison fails, since we were talking about something bad happening due to marital multiplicity.
 
     
 
comfortably_dumb
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How is me being against Gay Marriage make me a bad Christian/Person?
Don't get me wrong I'm not against them one bit, But I do think Marriage is a constitution between one male & one female.


Basically, you're seeking to disallow legal rights based on some kind of pseudo-religious nonsense. Marriage never was restricted to one male and one female. Not biblically, certainly.

Why should a fallacious appeal to religion negatively impact the very secular legality of marriage?
Is homosexual marriage in the Bible as being good? No? I didn't think so.
When God created Adam and Eve, were they man and woman? Yes? I thought so.
When He created Adam, did he say that man should not be alone, so he specifically created a woman, not another man? Yes? I thought so.
Did God say it was good? Yes? In fact, He said it was very good. I thought so.

Heterosexual marriage is biblical only.
...what?
You're not even making proper sense in order to construct the fallacious argument I think you're attempting to make.
Where in the Bible does it say that homosexual marriage is, you know, biblical? I'd like a verse, please, because you do say it's biblical.

Ur, no.
You're missing the point of this thread, and frankly, you're missing a huge chunk of what should be a major understanding of the canon.

This makes roughly as much sense as claiming that computers should be outlawed, since I don't see where they are biblical.

Problems with this include the following:

1. In a revealed law, the illegal is clearly defined or it does not exist, particularly if one is to believe that Yeshua died for any kind of larger purpose than as an example.
2. God decided to give the man a helper since man was alone, failed to create a proper instance of one, and then created a woman. Even if this weren't a mythical account, that doesn't say much for some kind of amazing plan from the beginning for the two of them to hook up as some sort of prototypical example to everyone else ever, OMG.
3. It's important to note that ishshah is repeatedly translated as both "woman" and "wife" within Genesis, without any kind of actual distinction. I'm not convinced that it is supportable to assume that they were automatically 'married' in any kind of contemporary sense because they were of the same flesh, or to assume much of anything, really. All that Genesis 2:24 actually says is that a man will leave his father and mother, stay with (cling to) a woman, and that they will come to exist as one. It should also be noted that this same terminology is used to describe men who are close to one another (as figurative brothers) and literal relatives of any sex.
4. Computers, like same-sex marriage, do absolutely no damage to the religion or the people, and there is no reasonable, supportable argument that they should be disallowed.
5. In a secular country with secular laws affecting people of various creeds, there is no reason to so much as insinuate that because something does not appear in the bible, it should be outlawed. This goes against standards clearly set forth in the bible, as well as being completely absurd.

comfortably_dumb

And about Adam and Eve -- God created Adam first, yes? God said that it was not right for Adam to be alone, so God created Eve for Adam. God didn't create a man for Adam, but a woman. Furthermore, God said that it was very good... as in the new relationship between a man and a woman. We were created for relationship, and this being between one man and one woman as seen in Genesis.

Bunk.
Ignoring the obvious issues with applying what God is supposed to have done in one specific mythical instance to everything else, ever: if you believe this, logic dictates that you must denounce the life of Paul and every other person ever who did not find a woman and have a similar relationship.

Perhaps you should denounce David or Solomon, who had multiple wives (also not exactly similar to the account in Genesis), or those who are not listed as having had wives.
     
comfortably_dumb
Blairnensha
comfortably_dumb
Blairnensha
comfortably_dumb
Where in the Bible does it say that homosexual marriage is, you know, biblical? I'd like a verse, please, because you do say it's biblical.
And about Adam and Eve -- God created Adam first, yes? God said that it was not right for Adam to be alone, so God created Eve for Adam. God didn't create a man for Adam, but a woman. Furthermore, God said that it was very good... as in the new relationship between a man and a woman. We were created for relationship, and this being between one man and one woman as seen in Genesis.

When&where did they get married?
I suppose it isn't quite literal, but can be assumed in:
Genesis 2:24 (ESV)
Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

Adam left his Father (God) to be fruitful and multiply with Eve, like God asked.
Adam and Eve became one flesh when they were... being fruitful and multiplying.
Adam and Eve stood before each other, naked, and unashamed.
So, because of what they did, and because of Genesis 2:24, God's saying they were married.

It "can be assumed"?
You realize that's a two-way street, right?

I believe that the Bible was inspired by God, and is perfect.

Interesting. Why, and in what sense do you mean perfect?
Also, what about the parts clearly noted as not God's words?

comfortably_dumb
I believe that the reason that that verse was in the Bible after Eve's creation was so that it would be known that they were married.
Why else would it be there like that? Why else would Adam do all of those things for Eve, and Eve not be his wife?

Let's derive a similar and not invalid translation, shall we?

Genesis 2:24 (Chiewnified ESV)
Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to a woman, and they shall become one flesh. And the man and woman were both naked and were not ashamed.
 
     
 
Totrue-Tufaar
Let me speak about religion a bit.

If it has something to do with the thread.

Totrue-Tufaar
My Aunt and Uncle were a part of the Presbytarian Church. Their church, along with many others, have left the main group. Why? Not because the Council is getting close to changing the rules of allowing people to become priests.

So their church has left because there may be a change in the official rules of the sect rather than staying to contribute to the process. Interesting.

Totrue-Tufaar
If a person is a non-practing homosexual, that is fine.

Why must they be non-practicing in order for it to be "fine" for them to be a part of the clergy?

Totrue-Tufaar
But the changes would allow adulters, perverts, and practing homosexuals as priests.

Evidence of this, please.
Define "perverts" and explain what problem exists with allowing any of these to be members of the clergy.

Totrue-Tufaar

The person sent to talk to the church actually yelled at the congregation about not telling the clergy what to do, and then a person quietly pointed out that he was wrong, and that that is why her son stopped being a pastor.

I am unclear about what this means or what it has to do with the sect's rules.

Totrue-Tufaar
The changing of the rules to be a priest that would allow active homosexuals and adulters to be priest and to force the churches to use them are besides the main point.

Why do you keep repeating this, then?
Also, what do you mean by active adulter[er]s, or forcing the church to use clergy?

Totrue-Tufaar
The Presbytarian Church would do various other things that would defy belief, though would give a show of being "politically correct". These actions included funding anti-Israeli terrorists, funding abortionists, putting money into making those who have abortions feel better, and once being a part of the Sofia movement which claimed that God was a woman.

The concept of Sofia is a little different than that. Proof of all of these actions, proof that they were done for the sole purpose of being politically correct, and proof that they go against belief, please.

Totrue-Tufaar
Not a promising indication of the future.
Evidence?

Totrue-Tufaar

I know I have sinned. I have several homosexual friends and treated them as well as I would anyone. They can be quiet reasonable. But not all people are. Yesterday a person said that homosexuals and bisexuals are smarter than heterosexuals because they do not have bias or see people by their sexual orientation. He did not see the irony. Another time when asking why a person said that "Everything was Jesus's fault" We got into a bit of a discussion. Which ended with several of his friends mocking me, shouting at me, etc. Admittedly, these two incidents happened on Gaia and the only real world interactions I would have with homosexuals would perhaps be my friends from school, and ultraliberal calling most of the people who made up the Army homophobes, and two incidents in which a guy smacked my rear and laughed at me. Though he was probably just a jerk.

I'm confused as to what this has to do with anything.
     
 
     
 
 
 
sweatdrop
Kay. I'm just putting in my opinion and heading out.

Marriage, no matter how much you want to love and protect, is something you will never own. It is a right, for anyone of any belief. This is a law we're talking about. This has nothing to do with religion, but more with everyone having the same rights as everyone else. Don't cloud your judgment, even if you think it is wrong, then just don't have a homosexual relationship. Not everyone has the same beliefs as you, and not everyone should have the same restrictions as you.

I understand how you could be annoyed with someone being homosexual and Christian. But if someone is not Christian and gay, then at least they're not being hypocrites, I guess.

I'm beginning to blab, so I'll stop here. eek
 
 
 
 
     
 
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linaloki
Totrue-Tufaar
linaloki
Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. God never said Adam + Eve was good, or even very good. You are wrong. We are NOT created for such a relationship, as Jesus points out in his lesson about "eunuchs," or people not meant to marry women. Further, David. Solomon. Jacob. None had one wife. They had more than one. They were all blessed and part of the lineage of Joseph, Mary's husband.


They were also of Mary's lineage. And did you READ what happened to Jacob and Solomon due to having multiple wives and scouting for new ones? David killed a man of absolute loyalty and devotion to cover his crime when the soldier refused to take time off to sleep with his wife, instead insisting on guarding his King. Went down hill from there. And Solomon began to lose faith in God as he would do religious things for his many wives.


Solomon screwed up, yes. But Bathsheba, the woman from David's error, was Solomon's mother, continuing the lineage. Not to mention, that wasn't David's multiple wives that did that. That was his lust. Unless you're talking about something totally different.

And nothing bad happened to Jacob. neutral

As for Mary's lineage, you have verses?

I'm going to point out real quickly that Solomon's issue wasn't the fact that he had multiple wives - it was the fact that his faith was weak. Unless Totrue would like to prove that having multiple partners weakens one's religious faith?
 
     
Sanity is subjective.

 
error-dot-tar
linaloki
Totrue-Tufaar
linaloki
Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. God never said Adam + Eve was good, or even very good. You are wrong. We are NOT created for such a relationship, as Jesus points out in his lesson about "eunuchs," or people not meant to marry women. Further, David. Solomon. Jacob. None had one wife. They had more than one. They were all blessed and part of the lineage of Joseph, Mary's husband.


They were also of Mary's lineage. And did you READ what happened to Jacob and Solomon due to having multiple wives and scouting for new ones? David killed a man of absolute loyalty and devotion to cover his crime when the soldier refused to take time off to sleep with his wife, instead insisting on guarding his King. Went down hill from there. And Solomon began to lose faith in God as he would do religious things for his many wives.


Solomon screwed up, yes. But Bathsheba, the woman from David's error, was Solomon's mother, continuing the lineage. Not to mention, that wasn't David's multiple wives that did that. That was his lust. Unless you're talking about something totally different.

And nothing bad happened to Jacob. neutral

As for Mary's lineage, you have verses?

I'm going to point out real quickly that Solomon's issue wasn't the fact that he had multiple wives - it was the fact that his faith was weak. Unless Totrue would like to prove that having multiple partners weakens one's religious faith?


It's specifically that he had multiple wives of multiple faiths, and that he ended up attempting to please his wives over God. Sorta reflects on what Paul says about marriage, y'know? Besides, even if we contended that Solomon's marital multiplicity was the direct cause of his downfall, David and Jacob are still in for the count.
     
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Totrue-Tufaar
And Solomon began to lose faith in God as he would do religious things for his many wives.


I also answered about David right above that. Why am I being asked so many questions that I have already answered?
 
     
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