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Tags: yeshua  marriage  homosexuality  christian  christianity 
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Judas L. Blackthorn
Elf Lord Chiewn
Okay ladies and germs, this thread is a rebirth of the "Being against gay marriage makes you a bad Christian" thread. This is also my supported opinion.

If you are Christian and opposing gay marriage, you are:

  • violating the Law of Agape (specifically, Matthew 22:39, Mark 12:31, Matthew 19:19, Romans 13:9), which is at the core of Yeshua's teachings.
  • judging your fellow man, which is warned against in the bible (Matthew 7:1-2, Luke 6:37).
  • raping the bible, as homosexuality is not a sin. Don't worry, we'll get to this in great detail, I'm sure. Don't even bother posting "NO UR WRONG" unless you're prepared to post verses along with your assertions.
  • arguing against equal rights for a people who are hardly different from the norm and who never offended you.

You may also be under the misconceptions that marriage is a purely Christian term, or that Christian marriage is a church affair. Both are false, as marriage is a legal term, and does not mean "Christian partnership" or any other such nonsense, and marriage in the biblical sense consists of two people getting to know one another in the biblical sense, and sticking around to spend the rest of their lives with one another afterward.

There was not even a Greek or Hebrew word for homosexuality in biblical times, and just because it is used in popular mistranslations does not make it an actual part of the bible. Every word taken to mean "homosexuality" has either been twisted or misconstrued in a way that cannot reasonably be considered to be definitive.

Additionally, before you start citing Leviticus, the Mosaic Law is moot according to Yeshua. If Christianity is in any way correct, the Old Law no longer applies, and certainly not to non-Jews. Were your ancestors enslaved in Egypt? Did they wander in the desert? Did they do dumb things with a golden idol? Because if not, there isn't even the beginning of a case for the continuity of Mosaic Law.

Please observe the forum rules and subforum rules at all times.


I'm a bad Christian, but a good Satanist :-O

I'm against Gay Marriage and I'm all for protecting the sanctity of marriage.
As long as I have the right to vote, my vote will always be "NO"!


Someone said the same things forty years ago about interracial marriage and we saw how that turned out.
 
     
http://i47.tinypic.com/2qsm6x3.jpg

So all of you chavs will stop picturing Jessica Alba when talking to me and be disappointed when you find out I'm not.

I'm the lady.
 
It is present in a most most immediate manner to the reason of the rational moral man that every sentence is either true or false, and no sentence can at the same time be both true and false. With this consideration in mind, let the contrary be abolished from our thoughts, lest our reason become irrational, and our sensibilities be rendered senseless.

Aware of the impossibility of concurrent contraries we consider now the way in which God Most High (Who cannot not be) is. For a moment let us consider our own being, realizing that in the world there are things which are, things which were not, and things which are not yet come; it seems as though all things are constantly coming into being and perishing. With each second a minute grows old and dies, and dying brings the death of hours, days, weeks, months, years...

Even though a thing seem to be more or less the same of itself as the moment, the hour, the day...the year before, it nonetheless is not the same; the thing of yesterday has died, and present before our eyes is the thing of the present, moaning aloud with labor pangs, pregnant always with the same thing of the minute which has not yet arrived, though never it gives birth.

Are we even for a moment to think that Our Most Holy God is such a thing? Let us not even consider it, for it is only too obvious that nothing truly can be said to be inheringly in the temporal world, the world of sense perception; it is a world which (like the Phoenix) is constantly perishing and being born anew. Our God, however, cannot not be; were He temporal, then He who cannot not be would forever be buried, deceased, with the dead past, nor yet would He ever have been (for though we race ahead with leaps and bounds towards what is to be, the future always yet is swifter).

Nay, far be it from us even for a moment to entertain the thought that Our Deathless God can either die nor not yet be, but rather bury the notion that Our Immortal God is in constantly dying temporality. Our God, rather, is He who lives forever, though without even a moment passing, in perpetual youth (mirabile dictu). Let us say with St. Augustine: "In the Eternal nothing passeth, but the whole is present (Confessions 11:11:13)."

From this, therefore, God's changeless eternity wherein nothing either leaves or enters, neither dies nor is born, wherein God has willed to create all that is. It is from this perpetual present, from all forever, which God speaks His "fiat," and by which "all things were made (John 1:3)."

For indeed, we cannot suppose even a moment that God spoke more than a single word (indeed, One Eternal Word), or that God's creative act was elongated by even a moment. Think we otherwise? Then let us sing aloud our most favorite Psalm, crying out with King David to the Lord: "Miserere mei Deus secundum magnam misericordiam tuam (Psalm 50:3 in the Vulgate)..."

Behold, even as as the second syllable is spoken, the first syllable is gone, and with the third spoken, the second...and so forth and son. How fitting is it then that many words, dying and being born anew, would belong to Our Most High God, or that God's actions would be elongated at any length, wherein they might find passing away and coming to be? Indeed, it is not at all fitting; let us purge from our minds such thoughts, knowing rightly that God speaks but a single word from all eternity (ex aeternitate), and likewise God's creative action is one (wherein He, though affecting, is entirely unaffected).

Thus, from all eternity (by the Eternal Word) all things were made, and God (making all things) truly knows all things which are made (since knowledge precedes the creative act). Yet, herein we find for ourselves a great paradox, a great mystery: wherein lies God's knowledge of things created?

We cannot say that God, having created the particular, gains knowledge of the particular (logically, not temporally) after it have been created...for knowledge precedes creation. Further still, God (being timeless and necessary) neither gains nor loses anything. Yet, before it was created, we cannot say that the particular was (lest the term 'creation' be rendered meaningless).

Truly, then, God knows in one act of knowing from all eternity (ex aeternitate)...yet at the same time the supposed objects of his knowledge (all things) are temporally preceded by the act of knowing (and this cannot be). In fine, we cannot say that God knows because things are...rather, all things are because God knows.

If, then, God's knowledge precedes creation, and (logically, not temporally) before creation there is nothing (save God), then what else can we say is the object of God's knowledge save for God? Indeed, the object of God's knowledge is Himself, and it is in God's knowledge of Himself that God's entire knowledge must be said to subsist. Yet, we rightly say that God knows His creation, for knowledge must be said to precede creation, and God assuredly is the creator of all things. Let us shudder, then, in appreciation of God's knowledge with King David: "Behold, O Lord, thou hast known all things, the last and those of old (Psalm 138 in the Vulgate)."

In light of the above, we can only conclude that God knows creation in knowing Himself, and all things which are made in time first are found in God's Divine Nature. It is when we speak of God's knowledge of Himself as the archetype of created things when we rightly refer to the objects of God's knowledge as "Forms." In fine, God in knowing Himself knows creation, and sees in creation His Own Divine Nature. The Forms, since they are one with God's Divine Nature, are changeless and eternal (for they cannot be seperated from God, who is changeless and eternal).

Furthermore, we have already established earlier that God is the Necessary Being, He who cannot not be. Since God is necessary, He exists in all possible worlds, and could have created any possible world. Therefore, since the act of knowing precedes creation, and God could have created all possible worlds, it follows that in Himself God sees all things which are possible (and so there is a Form for every possible object).

As a sidenote, it should be obvious by now that all things which God has created are good (since they are in imitation of God's Own Divine Nature, which is Goodness itself). Furthermore, it should be obvious by now that the Forms themselves are good, and are objects of beauty (since they are one with God's Divine Nature, which is Goodness itself).

It is here, then, that the most pressing question arises: can Goodness ever be different? Obviously, the answer is "no," given that God is The Good, and God is changeless and eternal. From this, it follows that Goodness likewise is changeless and eternal.

Last but not least, whatever is good for a species (it should be obvious) is necessarily good for that species, since the Form of the species is one with God's nature, and God's nature is changeless and everlasting. It should also be obvious that since God creates all things in imitiation of the Forms, that it is in the Forms that all species find their ideal, and in which man finds an unchanging standard of morality. Finally, it should be obvious that God cannot set a standard of morality which is contrary to the Forms, since the Forms are necessarily Good, and all contradictions are impossible.

Yet, wherein lies morality for man? We do not say that morality in man subsists in a state of the body, but rather either in actions, the will, or in the consequences of actions. Yet, we cannot say that the actions themselves are moral, given that an action which is done without the consent of the will is said to be an accident, and no accident carries moral weight. On the other hand, we do not say that consequences make an action moral, given that if a man intends to obtain a result other than his consequences, then we do praise him for the consequences.

For example, let us assume for a moment that a criminal, willing to fire upon and kill an old lady, instead missed and shot down a rampaging lion which had just escaped from the local zoo, and was about to kill several people. Whereas the consequence of the action (trying to kill an old lady) was surely good (killing the lion), we do not say that he is worthy of praise, but rather that he is to be condemned as a (would be) old lady killer!

We must say, then, that morality for man subsists in the will (even more so since man is a rational animal), and that a man is moral presupposing that he wills what is good (for we do not say that a man can both be moral and bad, nor do we say that a man can both be immoral and good). What, then, is the chiefmost object of the good will, except The Good? Morality, we must say, subsists foremost in the rational man in willing God, and herein lies a law of humanity which is absolutely unabolishable: man has a duty as a rational moral agent to love and will God, who is Good. Not even God can abolish this law, for God is Good necessarily...nor yet can we say that morality can subsist in ought else but the will, since man is made in imitation of the Form, which is eternal and changeless.

Secondarily, furthermore, since we have already established that the Forms are objects of beauty and are good neccessarily, and it is the case that goodness in the particular subsists in being like the Ideal, it follows that man is good insofar as he wills what is fitting for his nature, which is to say, insofar as he wills whatever is not contrary to the Form, and the "natural law" whereby man is obligated to strive towards the ideal, wherein he is said to "sin" in willing what is contrary to the Form, likewise is eternal and changeless. This law likewise cannot be abolished even by God, for to abolish this law would be for God to will contrary to Himself, since the Forms are one with God's nature, and this is contradiction.

For example, health is a good for man, and so man is obligated to will what is conduscive to health, and is barred by his nature from willing what he knows is contrary to his health. For this reason, we say that gluttony (for example) is contrary to our nature, and not even God can will otherwise.
     
linaloki
Where there Gentiles in the time of Adam?


I'd reckon that everyone was a Gentile in the time of adam.

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Ad ignorantiam is arguing FOR something BECAUSE there is no evidence. Saying that we can ignore ideas that lack evidence is not ad ignorantiam.


"Ad ignorantiam" is the fallacy whereby a claim is said to be false due to a lack of evidence. For example, "there's no proof that God exists, and therefore God does not exist." Likewise: "There's no proof that God does not exist, and therefore God exists."

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No one can do anything non-contradictory, yes? Law of contradictions, P & ~P cannot be. If I can do it, and no contradiction is caused, then God can also do it.


You haven't proven that you can do it.

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God is Good, right? No law God creates is immoral, and no law can be created as a contradiction.


I agree that no law God creates is immoral, and no law can be created as a contradiction. Therefore, God cannot abolish those laws which are necessarily good, or which ban things which are neccessarily bad.

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Go ahead and prove to me the following:

A) Sola scriptura views are wrong.


I don't have to prove that it is wrong; you have to prove that it's right. That said...

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B) Sola scriptura views are self-defeating.


Let's assume it ex hypothesi.

All doctrine must be explicitly spelled out in the Bible or else rejected.

Therefore, the doctrine "All doctrine must be explicitly spelled out in the Bible or else rejected" must be spelled out explicitly in the Bible or else rejected.

The above doctrine is not explicitly spelled out in the Bible.

Therefore, it must be rejected.

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C) The non-scripture references you quote come from God, and please. Do that BIBLICALLY. After all. The ONLY assumption we're working off of here is that the BIBLE is fact. Not the Church.


Above, I've proven there must be other sources. If Sola Scriptura is wrong, it follows there must be other sources.

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Hm... Might wanna wait post humously to write that, then. Since I can 100% guarantee you will fail at proving your point beyond a shadow of a doubt.


I've sinced posted it. Y'know, I think I understand why ED is so damned lame. "Prove the Forms, Barry! Prove there is an eternal, changeless law which cannot be abolished, Barry!" You have no idea the monstrous proportions in proving these things that is involved. Like, seriously, do you know how many different philosophers I had to mix together, how many different presupposing doctrines I had to demonstrate just to get to the point? For the sake of readability, do you know how much I had to compact what would otherwise be volumes? ninja
 
     
 
Dark Lord Drake
linaloki
Dark Lord Drake
And you can't a write out a list containing possible eventualities for things that do not yet exist?

And besides that you utterly fail to adress the part where I say that the rights relative to position could possibly be obvious consequences of what already was stated.


Um... no. Especially if you're not a person. A form cannot have knowledge, only a being can. Unless you're suggesting that there is a higher BEING than God, something I wouldn't suggest you suggest and still call yourself a Christian, there couldn't have been differences in morality based on eventuality if it was a form.

You fail to make that sentence make any sense whatsoever. Use less appositives.


Gravity doesn't need to know what it does, it just is. It doesn't need objects for the law to exist. If there were no material objects it could still exist, it would just have no effect. And then once objects were introduced it would take effect. Before the objects it could still exist. Oh yeah and you can stop with suggesting I say it's intelligent. No strawmen please.

Oh so you ignored it and didn't just bother to tell me it was because it didn't make sense to you? Great way to do things. Anyways, I was saying the first moral rules could suggest obvious moral rules for what is moral for a being in a lesser position.


Congrats. You are the KING of terrible, self-defeating examples.

Gravity affects EVERYTHING the SAME. By comparing morality to gravity, as if both were forms, you have compared morality to something that does what I said it would do. Effect everything the same, no matter what comes into existence.

And give me an example. Also, yes. That sentence made absolutely no sense.

Dark Lord Drake
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Dark Lord Drake
linaloki
What I CAN prove, however, is that there IS a place for my standard to work Biblically and logically, and that there is NO reason Biblically to believe anything beyond that standard because there is NOTHING Biblically to suggest it otherwise. And that's something I've already done that you've ignored.


And you have failed to prove that his position has no place or that it has something to suggest otherwise. Proving yours has a place does not make it more valid because the other argument came second.


His position is a purple space squirrel. Until there is some semblance of proof of it, it should be ignored. He claims that makes my argument "ad ignoratim", when, in actuality, arguing FOR something because of a lack of proof is the true "ad ignoratim" fallacy. Mine is more valid than his because mine actually has evidence, as well as Biblical foundation.


He isn't arguing for it due to a lack of proof. He stated outright he was currently saying yours has no evidence and that he would later put evidence for his. So no strawmen thanks.


Wrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrong again! He specifically said that my argument was "ad ignorantiam" and could be ignored. For him to claim mine had no evidence would be for him to claim Jesus didn't teach. He claimed mine had no undeniable PROOF. PROOF and EVIDENCE are two separate things. Get with the literacy please.

Dark Lord Drake
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Dark Lord Drake
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You pretend that my definition of omnipotence is faulty, but you conveniently ignore the fact that we AGREED ON THE DEFINITION.

God can do everything non-contradictory.

Being able to create a moral law is NOT contradictory. I can do it, therefore God can do it.

THEREFORE, God can create a moral law.


You did not prove that it cannot be contradictory.


Show me how it CAN be.


Your claim is that it cannot be contradictory. You provide the proof that it isn't. You made the claim, not me.


I supplied the proof and will do so again.

This time, I'll use the Catholic Church.

They have made it a rule that you are not to eat meat on Fridays during Lent, unless it is fish.

This is a new moral standard. Eating meat on Fridays during Lent for a Catholic is immoral and requires asking for forgiveness.

Since they were able to do this, and no one is able to do something contradictory, God is ALSO able to do this, since God can do all that man does.

Please, ignore my arguments harder.

Dark Lord Drake
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Dark Lord Drake
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There is nothing in the Bible to suggest Christ could not abolish every law. With the New Covenant, we are to spread the Word. If God keeps some of the Word from us, we cannot spread the Word. Therefore, the New Covenant must not exclude parts of the Word. This includes what is and is not a sin. Therefore, God does not work with surprise sins. Therefore, every sinful thing was covered by the Word.


That argument does not work unless the Old Testament is proven to be totally thrown out except for explicit statements otherwise. As that is what we are arguing over, it cannot be included. Because, if the OT was not totally thrown out except for explicit statements otherwise, it is still there and is not being kept from us and therefore is not being excluded from the Word.


Did Christ say, "Go and make Jews" or "Go and make disciples"? To make disciples, we use the teachings of Christ, not the Old Testament.


And if even part of it's thrown out they aren't making Jews, so don't be stupid and say that is what it must be if any part of the old laws stay. And if all the old law isn't thrown out you can't simply say it's not part of being a disciple.


The parts of the old law that aren't thrown out aren't thrown out because Christ said to keep them. Meaning it's covered in Christ's teachings. Got it?

Dark Lord Drake
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Dark Lord Drake
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We were told to spread the Word at Christ's Ascension. Therefore, there was no Pauline or other Epistle word to spread. Therefore, Christ's teaching is the Word we are to spread. Therefore, Christ's teaching covered every sinful thing. Therefore, we can logically and Biblically set up a standard wherein anything that was deemed sinful by Christ is sinful, and anything that was not talked of or deemed sinful is NOT.


Logically, as the New Testament was written after Christ's Ascension, that does not mean what was said then is saying the New Testament contains everything. It says what was already given out was enough. It does not say the NT has everything in it. Parts of what what not explicity stated could be given by the later books. The NT doesn't cover ever last second of Jesus's life, parts that are not stated outright could be expected to come from the apostles.


I never said it meant the NT covered everything. I said it meant Christ's teachings covered everything. Read often? And did Christ say, "Go and make disciples, but wait until I bitchslap Paul and get him to write the crap I didn't cover?" Or was it something else?


Are you like being dense? You are obviously claiming Christ's teachings are fully included in everything attributed to Christ in the NT. You claim Christ's teachings cover everything. Therefore you say the NT covers everything. You don't allow for the possibility that part of the teachings not outright written are being covered by the disciples.


Are you intentionally being a moron?

I'm not talking NOW. I'm talking THEN. Back all the way when Christ ACTUALLY PHYSICALLY SAID: "Go and make disciples". Understand? There's not really a guarantee that Christ didn't make some teachings the disciples forgot to write down, sure. We tend to accept that they got most of his ministry, though.

Dark Lord Drake
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Dark Lord Drake
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The only "ad ignoratim" arguments I'm making is that there's absolutely nothing in the Bible to suggest anything other than what I've just said. That your argument does not exist in the Bible and can therefore be ignored. Unless you want me to believe Christ taught about space squirrels, there is nothing logically wrong with arguing that what we do not have proof of can be ignored. The logical fallacy appears when I start arguing that we SHOULD believe in it because there's no proof.


There is nothing to suggest what you said. Abolishing some laws does not logically lead to being able to abolish all laws. Your argument does not exist in the Bible and can be ignored.


There's nothing to suggest that Christ gave some OT laws the okay and others the thumbs down? My argument, which is all about using the teachings of Christ, isn't found in the Bible?


Your argument assumes things that aren't there.


Like what? A standard for the removal of OT Law? Christ's teachings?

Dark Lord Drake
So no it's not covered. Is it that hard to fathom that assuming certain things for your argument to work means it is not fully covered? You assume that morality is not an absolute, it is only directed by what God says. Until you prove that otherwise, your argument is on an assumption that is not in the Bible. That get through your skull?


God is absolute and God is the Good. Therefore, the Good is absolute. Morality is absolute.

Which is why I'm saying that the things knocked out of the Old Laws had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH MORALITY.

My assumption is completely within the Bible. It's derived from the Bible. Everything for my argument comes from the Bible. Just because it's not flat out said doesn't make it non-Biblical. Saying Mary didn't die a virgin is an assumption drawn out of the Bible that's never flat-out said. Is it wrong to say that, then?

Dark Lord Drake
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Hahahaha! That's funny! You're not serious, right? Oh, wait... I forgot... You've never actually READ the Bible. I'm sorry, you poor thing. You should try doing that before arguing about it.


Congratulations on how pathetic you look.


Awwww, poor baby. Want a bottle? No cry.

Congratulations on proving your illiteracy.
     
Dark Lord Drake
linaloki

Metal Till I Die
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You pretend that my definition of omnipotence is faulty, but you conveniently ignore the fact that we AGREED ON THE DEFINITION.

God can do everything non-contradictory.

Being able to create a moral law is NOT contradictory. I can do it, therefore God can do it.


You haven't proven the second to last sentence.


No one can do anything non-contradictory, yes? Law of contradictions, P & ~P cannot be. If I can do it, and no contradiction is caused, then God can also do it.


You haven't proven you can make a valid moral law. You are assuming they have no backing besides what someone says. To be able to do so you must first prove that moral law is solely dictated by God. Which you haven't done.


Ah.

So, you're suggesting, that if God said, "No one should eat fish on Fridays", we could ignore Him. Right?

An intriguing suggestion, further showing your distance from Christianity.
 
     
 
Metal Till I Die
linaloki
Where there Gentiles in the time of Adam?


I'd reckon that everyone was a Gentile in the time of adam.


Personally, I always thought they were all children of God, since because there were no Jews there could be no Gentiles. Duality of nature and all that.

Metal Till I Die
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Ad ignorantiam is arguing FOR something BECAUSE there is no evidence. Saying that we can ignore ideas that lack evidence is not ad ignorantiam.


"Ad ignorantiam" is the fallacy whereby a claim is said to be false due to a lack of evidence. For example, "there's no proof that God exists, and therefore God does not exist." Likewise: "There's no proof that God does not exist, and therefore God exists."


Congrats. I was saying neither. I was saying, "There is no proof or evidence for your theory, therefore we should ignore it as credible in the presence of a theory with proof/evidence."

Metal Till I Die
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No one can do anything non-contradictory, yes? Law of contradictions, P & ~P cannot be. If I can do it, and no contradiction is caused, then God can also do it.


You haven't proven that you can do it.


The Catholic Church has done it, but you don't claim they haven't.

Metal Till I Die
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God is Good, right? No law God creates is immoral, and no law can be created as a contradiction.


I agree that no law God creates is immoral, and no law can be created as a contradiction. Therefore, God cannot abolish those laws which are necessarily good, or which ban things which are neccessarily bad.


How is it abolishing a law that is inherently good contradictory if it does not do bad by abolishing it?

Metal Till I Die
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Go ahead and prove to me the following:

A) Sola scriptura views are wrong.


I don't have to prove that it is wrong; you have to prove that it's right. That said...


Aw, poor Barry. You don't get to CHOOSE which arguments you started. You made the claim, "Sola Scriptura views are wrong". Not in so many words, but there you are. Burden of proof lies with you, especially since I never even mentioned sola scriptura views before you did.

Metal Till I Die
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B) Sola scriptura views are self-defeating.


Let's assume it ex hypothesi.

All doctrine must be explicitly spelled out in the Bible or else rejected.

Therefore, the doctrine "All doctrine must be explicitly spelled out in the Bible or else rejected" must be spelled out explicitly in the Bible or else rejected.

The above doctrine is not explicitly spelled out in the Bible.

Therefore, it must be rejected.


Really now? I mean, that looks ALMOST like a false dilemma, but sure! I'll accept that! I've been looking for reasons to include the Quran and the Lokasenna into my views as a Christian!

That argument, if you can't tell by my sarcastic reply, is foolish. Belief that nothing but the Bible is correct does not require the Bible to back it up, just as belief that the Church is correct doesn't require it. Or belief that the Quran is right doesn't need the Quran to say so. Or belief that Episcopalians or Methodists or Baptists are right doesn't need it specifically stated in the Bible. Fail.

Metal Till I Die
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C) The non-scripture references you quote come from God, and please. Do that BIBLICALLY. After all. The ONLY assumption we're working off of here is that the BIBLE is fact. Not the Church.


Above, I've proven there must be other sources. If Sola Scriptura is wrong, it follows there must be other sources.


Except your "proof" was kinda like proving that a giant space squirrel exists. It doesn't exist.

Also, which sources do you suggest, hm? How's about the Mahavrata?

Metal Till I Die
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Hm... Might wanna wait post humously to write that, then. Since I can 100% guarantee you will fail at proving your point beyond a shadow of a doubt.


I've sinced posted it. Y'know, I think I understand why ED is so damned lame. "Prove the Forms, Barry! Prove there is an eternal, changeless law which cannot be abolished, Barry!" You have no idea the monstrous proportions in proving these things that is involved. Like, seriously, do you know how many different philosophers I had to mix together, how many different presupposing doctrines I had to demonstrate just to get to the point? For the sake of readability, do you know how much I had to compact what would otherwise be volumes? ninja


YOU said you'd PROVE it. Without shadow of doubt, without ambiguity.

That means NO assumptions. Especially assumptions you didn't include in your "These are my assumptions" list.

I don't care how much research you did. You claimed you had proof of your view. Your view includes the forms. So, you need to prove the forms. Have fun with that. My Kantian ethics laugh at such an idea.
     
linaloki
Dark Lord Drake
linaloki
Dark Lord Drake
And you can't a write out a list containing possible eventualities for things that do not yet exist?

And besides that you utterly fail to adress the part where I say that the rights relative to position could possibly be obvious consequences of what already was stated.


Um... no. Especially if you're not a person. A form cannot have knowledge, only a being can. Unless you're suggesting that there is a higher BEING than God, something I wouldn't suggest you suggest and still call yourself a Christian, there couldn't have been differences in morality based on eventuality if it was a form.

You fail to make that sentence make any sense whatsoever. Use less appositives.


Gravity doesn't need to know what it does, it just is. It doesn't need objects for the law to exist. If there were no material objects it could still exist, it would just have no effect. And then once objects were introduced it would take effect. Before the objects it could still exist. Oh yeah and you can stop with suggesting I say it's intelligent. No strawmen please.

Oh so you ignored it and didn't just bother to tell me it was because it didn't make sense to you? Great way to do things. Anyways, I was saying the first moral rules could suggest obvious moral rules for what is moral for a being in a lesser position.


Congrats. You are the KING of terrible, self-defeating examples.

Gravity affects EVERYTHING the SAME. By comparing morality to gravity, as if both were forms, you have compared morality to something that does what I said it would do. Effect everything the same, no matter what comes into existence.

And give me an example. Also, yes. That sentence made absolutely no sense.


They're self defeating when you read too much into them like just about any other kind of example. The fact that it affects everything the same is irrelevant unless you declare that is somehow the reason it can exist without something to effect. My point was it can exist without something to effect. If it can, why not the same for morality? So provide some evidence that the reason gravity can exist without an object to effect is because it affects everything the same, else accept that I proved it is possible.

An example? Of what exactly?

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Dark Lord Drake
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Dark Lord Drake
linaloki
What I CAN prove, however, is that there IS a place for my standard to work Biblically and logically, and that there is NO reason Biblically to believe anything beyond that standard because there is NOTHING Biblically to suggest it otherwise. And that's something I've already done that you've ignored.


And you have failed to prove that his position has no place or that it has something to suggest otherwise. Proving yours has a place does not make it more valid because the other argument came second.


His position is a purple space squirrel. Until there is some semblance of proof of it, it should be ignored. He claims that makes my argument "ad ignoratim", when, in actuality, arguing FOR something because of a lack of proof is the true "ad ignoratim" fallacy. Mine is more valid than his because mine actually has evidence, as well as Biblical foundation.


He isn't arguing for it due to a lack of proof. He stated outright he was currently saying yours has no evidence and that he would later put evidence for his. So no strawmen thanks.


Wrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrong again! He specifically said that my argument was "ad ignorantiam" and could be ignored. For him to claim mine had no evidence would be for him to claim Jesus didn't teach. He claimed mine had no undeniable PROOF. PROOF and EVIDENCE are two separate things. Get with the literacy please.


He specifically said he would provide evidence later. Learn to read.

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Dark Lord Drake
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Dark Lord Drake
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You pretend that my definition of omnipotence is faulty, but you conveniently ignore the fact that we AGREED ON THE DEFINITION.

God can do everything non-contradictory.

Being able to create a moral law is NOT contradictory. I can do it, therefore God can do it.

THEREFORE, God can create a moral law.


You did not prove that it cannot be contradictory.


Show me how it CAN be.


Your claim is that it cannot be contradictory. You provide the proof that it isn't. You made the claim, not me.


I supplied the proof and will do so again.

This time, I'll use the Catholic Church.

They have made it a rule that you are not to eat meat on Fridays during Lent, unless it is fish.

This is a new moral standard. Eating meat on Fridays during Lent for a Catholic is immoral and requires asking for forgiveness.

Since they were able to do this, and no one is able to do something contradictory, God is ALSO able to do this, since God can do all that man does.

Please, ignore my arguments harder.


It's not my fault they're stupid arguments. The problem with your idiotic example is you fail to show it is a valid moral law. Furthermore, it is adding a restriction. Taking one away is different than adding one. If you managed to actually show anything at all you showed additional moral restriction can be added, you did not show they can all be removed.

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Dark Lord Drake
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Dark Lord Drake
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There is nothing in the Bible to suggest Christ could not abolish every law. With the New Covenant, we are to spread the Word. If God keeps some of the Word from us, we cannot spread the Word. Therefore, the New Covenant must not exclude parts of the Word. This includes what is and is not a sin. Therefore, God does not work with surprise sins. Therefore, every sinful thing was covered by the Word.


That argument does not work unless the Old Testament is proven to be totally thrown out except for explicit statements otherwise. As that is what we are arguing over, it cannot be included. Because, if the OT was not totally thrown out except for explicit statements otherwise, it is still there and is not being kept from us and therefore is not being excluded from the Word.


Did Christ say, "Go and make Jews" or "Go and make disciples"? To make disciples, we use the teachings of Christ, not the Old Testament.


And if even part of it's thrown out they aren't making Jews, so don't be stupid and say that is what it must be if any part of the old laws stay. And if all the old law isn't thrown out you can't simply say it's not part of being a disciple.


The parts of the old law that aren't thrown out aren't thrown out because Christ said to keep them. Meaning it's covered in Christ's teachings. Got it?

Dark Lord Drake
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Dark Lord Drake
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We were told to spread the Word at Christ's Ascension. Therefore, there was no Pauline or other Epistle word to spread. Therefore, Christ's teaching is the Word we are to spread. Therefore, Christ's teaching covered every sinful thing. Therefore, we can logically and Biblically set up a standard wherein anything that was deemed sinful by Christ is sinful, and anything that was not talked of or deemed sinful is NOT.


Logically, as the New Testament was written after Christ's Ascension, that does not mean what was said then is saying the New Testament contains everything. It says what was already given out was enough. It does not say the NT has everything in it. Parts of what what not explicity stated could be given by the later books. The NT doesn't cover ever last second of Jesus's life, parts that are not stated outright could be expected to come from the apostles.


I never said it meant the NT covered everything. I said it meant Christ's teachings covered everything. Read often? And did Christ say, "Go and make disciples, but wait until I bitchslap Paul and get him to write the crap I didn't cover?" Or was it something else?


Are you like being dense? You are obviously claiming Christ's teachings are fully included in everything attributed to Christ in the NT. You claim Christ's teachings cover everything. Therefore you say the NT covers everything. You don't allow for the possibility that part of the teachings not outright written are being covered by the disciples.


Are you intentionally being a moron?

I'm not talking NOW. I'm talking THEN. Back all the way when Christ ACTUALLY PHYSICALLY SAID: "Go and make disciples". Understand? There's not really a guarantee that Christ didn't make some teachings the disciples forgot to write down, sure. We tend to accept that they got most of his ministry, though.


And I say what the disciples wrote themselves could be based off of things that were not included or were forgotten. They're supposed to be spreading the teachings. Is it that hard to get?

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Dark Lord Drake
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Dark Lord Drake
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The only "ad ignoratim" arguments I'm making is that there's absolutely nothing in the Bible to suggest anything other than what I've just said. That your argument does not exist in the Bible and can therefore be ignored. Unless you want me to believe Christ taught about space squirrels, there is nothing logically wrong with arguing that what we do not have proof of can be ignored. The logical fallacy appears when I start arguing that we SHOULD believe in it because there's no proof.


There is nothing to suggest what you said. Abolishing some laws does not logically lead to being able to abolish all laws. Your argument does not exist in the Bible and can be ignored.


There's nothing to suggest that Christ gave some OT laws the okay and others the thumbs down? My argument, which is all about using the teachings of Christ, isn't found in the Bible?


Your argument assumes things that aren't there.


Like what? A standard for the removal of OT Law? Christ's teachings?


Like morality is solely directed by God. Are you too dense to notice I've been saying that the whole time?

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Dark Lord Drake
So no it's not covered. Is it that hard to fathom that assuming certain things for your argument to work means it is not fully covered? You assume that morality is not an absolute, it is only directed by what God says. Until you prove that otherwise, your argument is on an assumption that is not in the Bible. That get through your skull?


God is absolute and God is the Good. Therefore, the Good is absolute. Morality is absolute.

Which is why I'm saying that the things knocked out of the Old Laws had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH MORALITY.

My assumption is completely within the Bible. It's derived from the Bible. Everything for my argument comes from the Bible. Just because it's not flat out said doesn't make it non-Biblical. Saying Mary didn't die a virgin is an assumption drawn out of the Bible that's never flat-out said. Is it wrong to say that, then?


You are assuming things with no reason. You assume morality is solely dictated by God. You have yet to provide proof, Biblical or otherwise. You can't make that assumption and have it necessary to your arguments and ignore the fact it is not taken from the Bible but wherever else you got it.

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Dark Lord Drake
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Hahahaha! That's funny! You're not serious, right? Oh, wait... I forgot... You've never actually READ the Bible. I'm sorry, you poor thing. You should try doing that before arguing about it.


Congratulations on how pathetic you look.


Awwww, poor baby. Want a bottle? No cry.

Congratulations on proving your illiteracy.



What I'm illiterate because I don't fall down and worship you for your arrogance?
 
     
 
linaloki
Dark Lord Drake
linaloki

Metal Till I Die
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You pretend that my definition of omnipotence is faulty, but you conveniently ignore the fact that we AGREED ON THE DEFINITION.

God can do everything non-contradictory.

Being able to create a moral law is NOT contradictory. I can do it, therefore God can do it.


You haven't proven the second to last sentence.


No one can do anything non-contradictory, yes? Law of contradictions, P & ~P cannot be. If I can do it, and no contradiction is caused, then God can also do it.


You haven't proven you can make a valid moral law. You are assuming they have no backing besides what someone says. To be able to do so you must first prove that moral law is solely dictated by God. Which you haven't done.


Ah.

So, you're suggesting, that if God said, "No one should eat fish on Fridays", we could ignore Him. Right?

An intriguing suggestion, further showing your distance from Christianity.


Congratulations on showing your distance from civility and intelligence. Maybe you could join Westboro in telling people how they're not Christian and how far from it they are?

Creating a valid moral law does not imply destroying others created for other reasons. Furthermore, if listening to additions to basic morality from a source above you is moral then the additional laws would only be moral because of that. Oh and thanks again for the strawman. If you can't ridicule my real arguments, you make some up for me so you can ridicule them. Is it for your ego or something?
     
Dark Lord Drake
They're self defeating when you read too much into them like just about any other kind of example. The fact that it affects everything the same is irrelevant unless you declare that is somehow the reason it can exist without something to effect. My point was it can exist without something to effect. If it can, why not the same for morality? So provide some evidence that the reason gravity can exist without an object to effect is because it affects everything the same, else accept that I proved it is possible.

An example? Of what exactly?


Gravity cannot, by definition, exist without anything to affect. Gravity is an attraction between multiple bodies. If there are no bodies, there is no attraction and thusly, by definition, no gravity. Your analogy fails hard.

And an example of a moral rule that can suggest an obvious moral rule for a lower position when there's no such thing as positions.

Dark Lord Drake
He specifically said he would provide evidence later. Learn to read.


And I said, until that time, his argument could be ignored. Learn to comprehend. Especially since, when arguing with Barry, he usually doesn't supply evidence, just tries to demean everyone else's views.

Dark Lord Drake
It's not my fault they're stupid arguments. The problem with your idiotic example is you fail to show it is a valid moral law. Furthermore, it is adding a restriction. Taking one away is different than adding one. If you managed to actually show anything at all you showed additional moral restriction can be added, you did not show they can all be removed.


So, adding a restriction can't be a moral law? Do not kill isn't a moral law?

I wasn't trying to show that they can be removed, you colossal moron. You asked for me to prove that moral laws could be created. Removal is an entirely different matter. As for validity, pay attention, you hippopotamic land mass. The Catholic Church created that moral law. It is a valid moral law for everyone that works under the Church's guidance. If the Church can make a moral law that works for everyone under it's guidance, God, being omnipotent, can as well. God would be able to say, "Nothing but fish on Fridays" because He is omnipotent and can do anything man can do. The aforementioned law cannot, by nature, be a contradiction, since contradictions cannot exist.

Besides, as you said. I showed that additional moral restriction can be added. God can, being omnipotent, destroy that which He creates.

Dark Lord Drake
And I say what the disciples wrote themselves could be based off of things that were not included or were forgotten. They're supposed to be spreading the teachings. Is it that hard to get?


Did you know that the writings we like to call the gospels came 20+ years AFTER Christ died?

Before they wrote anything, the people were to go and make disciples ONLY with what Christ said. If they were supposed to include things that hadn't yet been revealed, they were a LITTLE screwed for 20 years.

Dark Lord Drake
Like morality is solely directed by God. Are you too dense to notice I've been saying that the whole time?


And are you too dense to notice I've been defending that view point Biblically, while you have yet to do anything to support your theory that I'm wrong? Biblically or otherwise?

Dark Lord Drake
You are assuming things with no reason.


I assumed you were intelligent. Boy was I wrong! I concede there!

Dark Lord Drake
You assume morality is solely dictated by God.


No, I work with the Bible to logically derive the FACT that morality is solely dictated by God. Fail.

Dark Lord Drake
You have yet to provide proof, Biblical or otherwise.


I'VE BEEN PROVIDING EVIDENCE THE ENTIRE TIME, YOU COLOSSAL NITWIT.

Your illiteracy is reaching new heights. I want to see your proof that morality isn't solely dictated by God. You seem to be assuming THAT, and YOU have yet to supply anything that could be called evidence OR logical derivation.

Dark Lord Drake
You can't make that assumption and have it necessary to your arguments and ignore the fact it is not taken from the Bible but wherever else you got it.


Yeah. I totally got the teachings of Christ from my Biology book. That's EXACTLY what I've been doing. Wait until you hear what Christ said about mitochondria!

My argument IS that God is the moral law. That's not an assumption, that's what I've been DEFENDING. I swear, have you gotten past flash cards in kindergarten yet?

Dark Lord Drake
What I'm illiterate because I don't fall down and worship you for your arrogance?


No. There's tons of literate people that don't do that. You're illiterate because YOU CAN'T READ. Which, strangely enough, is the definition of illiteracy.
 
     
 
Dark Lord Drake
Congratulations on showing your distance from civility and intelligence. Maybe you could join Westboro in telling people how they're not Christian and how far from it they are?


Nice ad hom! But last I checked, people that believed in a being higher than the Abrahamic God WEREN'T Christians, since Christ taught that God was Supreme. But, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Christ was cool with you downplaying God's position as Supreme Being, Beginning, End, Creator of All.

Dark Lord Drake
Creating a valid moral law does not imply destroying others created for other reasons. Furthermore, if listening to additions to basic morality from a source above you is moral then the additional laws would only be moral because of that. Oh and thanks again for the strawman. If you can't ridicule my real arguments, you make some up for me so you can ridicule them. Is it for your ego or something?


Congrats, you make zero sense and counter almost everything you say with everything you say.

The argument is: Can God create moral law?

The answer is: Yes. He can create law that, by definition of God being Good and Moral, must be moral, for it cannot be immoral.

Secondary argument is: Can God repeal the laws of the OT?

The answer is: Yes. If God created, God can destroy, being that He is omnipotent. If removal of the law creates no immorality, then the law can be removed.

You understand yet, or must I go monosyllabic?
     
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linaloki
Personally, I always thought they were all children of God, since because there were no Jews there could be no Gentiles. Duality of nature and all that.


Gentile merely means "not a Jew." If there were no Jews, then by definition everyone is a Gentile. Granted, I suppose that the term becomes redundant at that point.

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Congrats. I was saying neither. I was saying, "There is no proof or evidence for your theory, therefore we should ignore it as credible in the presence of a theory with proof/evidence."


Not really. I asked you to prove that every law can be abolished. You then basically argued "there's no evidence that they can't be." That's an ad ignorantiam argument.

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The Catholic Church has done it, but you don't claim they haven't.


The Catholic Church can't create a moral law; they can only recognize the ones that are already around. Granted, they can make laws concerning those things which are indifferent; for example, there is nothing wrong with a priest marrying a woman...except that the Church says that it is better that they don't, and restricts them from doing so.

This isn't a creation of a moral law, since it is not said to be immoral for a priest to marry (of itself). The Eastern Rites reserve the priveledge to marry.

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How is it abolishing a law that is inherently good contradictory if it does not do bad by abolishing it?


I gave an example in my other post. "Gluttony is bad" is an irrevocable moral law. Man has an obligation to look towards his own health; that obligation cannot be taken away by Divine Mandate.

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Aw, poor Barry. You don't get to CHOOSE which arguments you started. You made the claim, "Sola Scriptura views are wrong".


I didn't say that Sola Scriptura views are wrong. I said that you are presupposing Sola Scriptura. This is to say, for your arguments to work, you have to presuppose this additional bit, which I do not assume. I'd like to see you prove it.

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Not in so many words, but there you are. Burden of proof lies with you, especially since I never even mentioned sola scriptura views before you did.


That said, I nonetheless gave a proof against it.

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Really now? I mean, that looks ALMOST like a false dilemma, but sure!


False dilemma? "Either the Bible is the only source of doctrine or it isn't." That's the excluded middle, man. It should be obvious that if it isn't the only source of doctrine, then there are other sources. So "Either the Bible is the only source of doctrine, or there exist other sources of doctrine."

I've shown that the Bible can't be the only source of doctrine (by reductio), and so there must be other sources of doctrine.

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That argument, if you can't tell by my sarcastic reply, is foolish. Belief that nothing but the Bible is correct does not require the Bible to back it up


But you think that nothing but the Bible is correct. Since this belief is not in the Bible, it must be wrong.

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Except your "proof" was kinda like proving that a giant space squirrel exists. It doesn't exist.


It isn't my fault that your beliefs are self-defeating.

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Also, which sources do you suggest, hm? How's about the Mahavrata?


I don't have to prove that this or that source is authoritative; it is sufficient merely to show that the Bible isn't the only source.

That said, I see no reason to disregard the light of our own Reason.

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YOU said you'd PROVE it. Without shadow of doubt, without ambiguity.


Dude, I already posted the proof. Did you miss the 1700+ word post?

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That means NO assumptions. Especially assumptions you didn't include in your "These are my assumptions" list.


I didn't assume anything that you and I wouldn't readily admit in the context of any other discussion.

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I don't care how much research you did. You claimed you had proof of your view. Your view includes the forms. So, you need to prove the forms.


Dude, see the 1700+ word post that I made a few hours ago.
 
     
Metal up your a**!

Mechanix
Whoever thought youd be better
At turning a screw than me
I do it for my life
Made my drive shaft crank
Made my pistons bulge
Made my ball bearing melt from the heat!
 
linaloki
Dark Lord Drake
Congratulations on showing your distance from civility and intelligence. Maybe you could join Westboro in telling people how they're not Christian and how far from it they are?


Nice ad hom! But last I checked, people that believed in a being higher than the Abrahamic God WEREN'T Christians, since Christ taught that God was Supreme. But, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Christ was cool with you downplaying God's position as Supreme Being, Beginning, End, Creator of All.


Do you utterly fail to notice I actually address the fact your argument is a strawman argument? What you said was not necessary to my argument nor does it logically follow as I show. Did you actually expect me to address a strawman seriously? Seriously get your head checked, I never said there was a higher being. You're the one who keeps making absurd illogical jumps for me.

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Dark Lord Drake
Creating a valid moral law does not imply destroying others created for other reasons. Furthermore, if listening to additions to basic morality from a source above you is moral then the additional laws would only be moral because of that. Oh and thanks again for the strawman. If you can't ridicule my real arguments, you make some up for me so you can ridicule them. Is it for your ego or something?


Congrats, you make zero sense and counter almost everything you say with everything you say.

The argument is: Can God create moral law?

The answer is: Yes. He can create law that, by definition of God being Good and Moral, must be moral, for it cannot be immoral.

Secondary argument is: Can God repeal the laws of the OT?

The answer is: Yes. If God created, God can destroy, being that He is omnipotent. If removal of the law creates no immorality, then the law can be removed.

You understand yet, or must I go monosyllabic?



Wow where did the ability to create a law jump to logic that says essentially "The only reason ANY laws exist are because they were created"?

Does monosyballic phrasing make your absurd and contested leaps any better?
     
linaloki
Dark Lord Drake
They're self defeating when you read too much into them like just about any other kind of example. The fact that it affects everything the same is irrelevant unless you declare that is somehow the reason it can exist without something to effect. My point was it can exist without something to effect. If it can, why not the same for morality? So provide some evidence that the reason gravity can exist without an object to effect is because it affects everything the same, else accept that I proved it is possible.

An example? Of what exactly?


Gravity cannot, by definition, exist without anything to affect. Gravity is an attraction between multiple bodies. If there are no bodies, there is no attraction and thusly, by definition, no gravity. Your analogy fails hard.

And an example of a moral rule that can suggest an obvious moral rule for a lower position when there's no such thing as positions.


The law of gravity can exist. The effect cannot. Laws can exist without causing an effect.

I don't know one, and you are the one that claims it could never happen.

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Dark Lord Drake
He specifically said he would provide evidence later. Learn to read.


And I said, until that time, his argument could be ignored. Learn to comprehend. Especially since, when arguing with Barry, he usually doesn't supply evidence, just tries to demean everyone else's views.


You need to actually notice it was an attack on your evidence. Up until he actually posted it that is, which you seem to have conveniently ignored.

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Dark Lord Drake
It's not my fault they're stupid arguments. The problem with your idiotic example is you fail to show it is a valid moral law. Furthermore, it is adding a restriction. Taking one away is different than adding one. If you managed to actually show anything at all you showed additional moral restriction can be added, you did not show they can all be removed.


So, adding a restriction can't be a moral law? Do not kill isn't a moral law?

I wasn't trying to show that they can be removed, you colossal moron. You asked for me to prove that moral laws could be created. Removal is an entirely different matter. As for validity, pay attention, you hippopotamic land mass. The Catholic Church created that moral law. It is a valid moral law for everyone that works under the Church's guidance. If the Church can make a moral law that works for everyone under it's guidance, God, being omnipotent, can as well. God would be able to say, "Nothing but fish on Fridays" because He is omnipotent and can do anything man can do. The aforementioned law cannot, by nature, be a contradiction, since contradictions cannot exist.

Besides, as you said. I showed that additional moral restriction can be added. God can, being omnipotent, destroy that which He creates.


Saying or implying that the ability to create one means they are all created is absurd.

If that isn't what you were implying then it's completely irrelevant to the subject, and it was stupid of you to bring it up.

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Dark Lord Drake
And I say what the disciples wrote themselves could be based off of things that were not included or were forgotten. They're supposed to be spreading the teachings. Is it that hard to get?


Did you know that the writings we like to call the gospels came 20+ years AFTER Christ died?

Before they wrote anything, the people were to go and make disciples ONLY with what Christ said. If they were supposed to include things that hadn't yet been revealed, they were a LITTLE screwed for 20 years.


And did you totally miss that I say we don't know if everything Christ said is recorded and part of what was said but not written could be spread through what the disciples say? You are assuming everything written in the gospels must be everything Christ said else saying they would be screwed for 20 years makes no sense.

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Dark Lord Drake
Like morality is solely directed by God. Are you too dense to notice I've been saying that the whole time?


And are you too dense to notice I've been defending that view point Biblically, while you have yet to do anything to support your theory that I'm wrong? Biblically or otherwise?


Are you too stupid to notice I you have yet to conclusively prove it? And I'm not bothering to defend my theory right now, I'm attacking your proof.

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Dark Lord Drake
You are assuming things with no reason.


I assumed you were intelligent. Boy was I wrong! I concede there!


What a joke, like you think I can't see your opinion of yourself relative to me from your replies to me.

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Dark Lord Drake
You assume morality is solely dictated by God.


No, I work with the Bible to logically derive the FACT that morality is solely dictated by God. Fail.

Dark Lord Drake
You have yet to provide proof, Biblical or otherwise.


I'VE BEEN PROVIDING EVIDENCE THE ENTIRE TIME, YOU COLOSSAL NITWIT.

Your illiteracy is reaching new heights. I want to see your proof that morality isn't solely dictated by God. You seem to be assuming THAT, and YOU have yet to supply anything that could be called evidence OR logical derivation.


Your evidence is being contested. To declare you proved anything is stupid unless your 'evidence' has been accepted.

And no, I'm still attacking your 'evidence' at the moment. Don't try to protect shoddy evidence by asking me to go do something else.

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Dark Lord Drake
You can't make that assumption and have it necessary to your arguments and ignore the fact it is not taken from the Bible but wherever else you got it.


Yeah. I totally got the teachings of Christ from my Biology book. That's EXACTLY what I've been doing. Wait until you hear what Christ said about mitochondria!

My argument IS that God is the moral law. That's not an assumption, that's what I've been DEFENDING. I swear, have you gotten past flash cards in kindergarten yet?


Declaring that a law can be created and therefore destroyed proves anything at all is assuming that the only source is that all the laws were created. That assumes God is the moral law.

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Dark Lord Drake
What I'm illiterate because I don't fall down and worship you for your arrogance?


No. There's tons of literate people that don't do that. You're illiterate because YOU CAN'T READ. Which, strangely enough, is the definition of illiteracy.



What, people with egos like yours care about the terms they use to attack people?
 
     
 
Gay Marrage is a subject that is only lit in the dark by those who try to explore it, America has some pretty dim lights. People want to protect the sainty of marrage, but last I checked marriage was about people who love each other. To protect the sainty of marrage is the dumbest cause i've ever herd, it's like saying fighting the war on terrorism. Terrorism has been around for centuries so has assassination to try to elimate the subject is a remedial concept, a dog chasing it's own tail has a better chance, because the dog can atleast catch it's tail, if it can't it will give up. As long as American voters as dumb as dirt the only way gay marriage can exsist if it had its own religon. Marriage by religon has to be reconized because of freedom of religon, if satanists can have they're own chruch why can't gay people be married?
     
I posted an argument against gay marriage, yet you people continue arguing about "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" Grr.
 
     

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