If religion didn't exist would homosexuality be wrong

Homosexuality good or bad

gay/lesbian-"good"	41.6%	[ 32 ]
gay/lesbian- "bad" 0.0	5.2%	[ 4 ]
straight- "good"	11.7%	[ 9 ]
straight- "bad"	3.9%	[ 3 ]
bi-"good"	6.5%	[ 5 ]
bi- "bad"????	0.0%	[ 0 ]
none of the above	31.2%	[ 24 ]
Total Votes:			[ 77 ]

[Eria_Tarento]

So I had to ask this. Every person I've ever asked and answers that homosexuality is wrong says it to be so because of their religion. The thing is not every one is part of the same religion and we must not base ethics on the word of one religion. This forum is "MORALITY and religion" so its reasonable for me to ask this in terms of morality and not in terms of religion. If you want to use the bible as your source of wisdom go to one of the other threads where it will be appreciated.

Anyways, the only other argument I ever seem to hear/read that isn't directly religious is that homosexual couples cannot procreate, but this has implications I don't think could be reasonably supported, such as that any infertile couple is somehow in the wrong. This also implies that relationships of a romantic nature are about producing offspring and not about love, which in itself would ruin the whole point of romance.

Also I have yet to be able to find a theory of normative ethics that I could bend to claim having homosexuality being under it. Perhaps this is because of how easy it is to bend them in defense of homosexuality. Examples: Utilitarianism (making the most net happiness)-well it makes them happy, Contractarianism (things are wrong if they break an agreement)-ok what agreement is being broken, ethical egoist(its all what you decide...not the best definition but it fits)-ok so the person is homosexual then it is obviously right for them to be so, ect.

edit- just so there is no confusion on my view. I find Homosexuality perfectly fine and am just wondering if there is any real argument against it that is not religious based.

So
Can homosexuality possibly be considered wrong outside of religion, specifically the abrahamic religions?
Are there reasonable arguments against homosexuality that are not based on the whole god thing?
Is homosexuality wrong?
Anything related really...

[Super 80s]

Gotta love the classics.

[Gho the Girl]

Super 80s

Gotta love the classics.

That only is in regards to christianity.

[Super 80s]

Gho the Girl

Super 80s

Gotta love the classics.

That only is in regards to christianity.

Yes, but Abrahamic religions are specifically mentioned, so I thought I might as well. It's the only one I have any knowledge on anyway.

[Eria_Tarento]

Super 80s

Gotta love the classics.

I said to leave religion out of it...true that thread supports the idea that its ok under christianity but i'm asking about if its ok period.

[Eria_Tarento]

Super 80s

Gho the Girl

Super 80s

Gotta love the classics.

That only is in regards to christianity.

Yes, but Abrahamic religions are specifically mentioned, so I thought I might as well. It's the only one I have any knowledge on anyway.

I asked if it could be considered wrong OUTSIDE of them

[Super 80s]

Eria_Tarento

Super 80s

Gotta love the classics.

I said to leave religion out of it...true that thread supports the idea that its ok under christianity but i'm asking about if its ok period.

Oh. Sorry. sweatdrop

[Eria_Tarento]

Super 80s

Eria_Tarento

Super 80s

Gotta love the classics.

I said to leave religion out of it...true that thread supports the idea that its ok under christianity but i'm asking about if its ok period.

Oh. Sorry. sweatdrop

its alright *hugs*

so any ideas of how its could possibly be morphed with out those existing to be wrong?

[Jewpanesey]

Homosexuality isn't wrong in the first place. Just because some dudes that wrote some books some thousand years ago were homophobic doesn't give anyone the right to deny someone their rights as a human.

[Gho the Girl]

Eria_Tarento

Super 80s

Gho the Girl

Super 80s

Gotta love the classics.

That only is in regards to christianity.

Yes, but Abrahamic religions are specifically mentioned, so I thought I might as well. It's the only one I have any knowledge on anyway.

I asked if it could be considered wrong OUTSIDE of them

It can be. Not in any rational way, but it can be.

[GuardianSoulX]

It's about time someone asked a question like this. Kudos to you, author of the thread. I will announce first and foremost that I am a Christian.

How can homosexuality be wrong outside of religious standards?

Well, I'm feeling kinda lazy so I'll say it in a few simple statements and allow you to discuss the rest.

Doesn't everyone believe in science and nature? Well, I'm well convinced that everyone does; otherwise, you wouldn't need medical insurance. wink Homosexuality defies nature in the sense that nature confirms the purpose of sexual organs. I will continue to refer to nature, but of course you already know that I hold one being above nature, God. We can still agree upon the nature of things though. I just belief that God created nature and deemed it thus. So not meaning to sound redudant but the answer lies within the common ground of nature.

We study scientifically the purpose of sex, to create more life but also sex produces pleasure. Sex is used as an expression of love in the human life. Unlike most species, humans have a certain "inner obligation" or shall i say desire to raise children. Some people do not wish to have children, and that's just fine. Humans typically find a mate and get married either to oth bcreate children with that individual and spend the rest of the life with or just simply live the rest of life with.

I have stated that just as a friendly and blatant reminder of the ways of humanity concerning love. This process has been done for thousands of years (if not more). n a way, it has become a law in a sense: to find a mate to love and raise children so that more may live.

Now, I know......I know. I've just been stating the obvious. I have a question: why would diseases be given to homosexual men that frequently have "intercourse" with one another? If one is arguing that homosexuality is their nature, how do you explain this phenomenon? Things are difficult to explain at that rate. So basically nature would be commanded to cause death to the natural? Why haven't the homosexuals developed an immunity to further establish their claim to their acts being natural?

Homosexuality has become more so an issue of health. Statistics show a larger amount of diseases in the homosexual male when compared to the heterosexual male. Nature embraces the inhabitants of the earth that are alligned with what it was commanded to do. You may be thinking something like : "But other people get diseases as well." True, sometimes disease spread and innocent people contract diseases. That's just the way things work, but the diseases of homosexuality have been proven by science to be a direct cause of their activity. They have defied nature and science by using their sexual organs improperly.

Concerning my religion, God is not pleased to see this. Surely, God would say that we should love one another. Richard Rodriguez, a homosexual writer, wrote an essay titled "Thou Shalt Not Love" in which he states that God could not make this commandment. My only problem with this statement is that he refused to complete it. If I was a good enough writer to write a rebuttal it would be entitled "Thou Shalt Not Love In This Manner."

There is order in the universe, and order is understood in terms of nature. I'm sorry to say but both nature and science disagree with homosexual love. I would say that homosexuality is a psychological disorder at best.

[CuAnnan]

GuardianSoulX

Doesn't everyone believe in science and nature?

No. Creationists eschew scientific reasoning.

GuardianSoulX

Homosexuality defies nature in the sense that nature confirms the purpose of sexual organs.

What, with the whole male g-spot being one p***s length up the arse.
Yeah. Explain that again?
How about homosexual dolphins, bonobo chimps, penguins or the other hundreds of thousands of documented cases of homosexuality in animals?

GuardianSoulX

Unlike most species, humans have a certain "inner obligation" or shall i say desire to raise children.

Firstly, I would like you to prove that humans as a rule have this desire.
Then, when you're done doing that, I would like you to prove that this is 'unlike most species' as opposed to the way things are as a default.

GuardianSoulX

I have stated that just as a friendly and blatant reminder of the ways of humanity concerning love.

This has not covered love at all. It has covered procreation.

GuardianSoulX

why would diseases be given to homosexual men that frequently have "intercourse" with one another?

They haven't.

GuardianSoulX

If one is arguing that homosexuality is their nature, how do you explain this phenomenon?

It doesn't happen in reality. The only place it happens is your head.
I would like you to show a single epidemic above gay people. Because, let's face it, HIV AIDS is actually an epidemic among straight people. It's not epidemic among gay people.

GuardianSoulX

Why haven't the homosexuals developed an immunity to further establish their claim to their acts being natural?

o.O because that's not the way nature works?
Have you studied science at all or are you using "Fred Phelps Friendly Factual guide to the fciencef"

GuardianSoulX

Statistics show a larger amount of diseases in the homosexual male when compared to the heterosexual male.

CITATION NEEDED!

GuardianSoulX

True, sometimes disease spread and innocent people contract diseases. That's just the way things work, but the diseases of homosexuality have been proven by science to be a direct cause of their activity.

You are outright lying here.

GuardianSoulX

There is order in the universe, and order is understood in terms of nature.

Hey, at least we agree on something.

GuardianSoulX

I'm sorry to say but both nature and science disagree with homosexual love.

No. They don't.

GuardianSoulX

I would say that homosexuality is a psychological disorder at best.

But you're not an authority on psychology.
And the experts disagree with you.

[Herald of Lies]

Gho the Girl

Eria_Tarento

Super 80s

Gho the Girl

Super 80s

Gotta love the classics.

That only is in regards to christianity.

Yes, but Abrahamic religions are specifically mentioned, so I thought I might as well. It's the only one I have any knowledge on anyway.

I asked if it could be considered wrong OUTSIDE of them

It can be. Not in any rational way, but it can be.

Proof there is no rational way it can be? Oh and please define what exactly you mean by rational and an example of what you would say is a rational belief concerning right and wrong and why it is. People have varying views on it and I'd hate to have to deconstruct our accepted premises farther than I have to.

[Jewpanesey]

I'm just glad he didn't try to say that the only function of the genitals is reproduction, because who is to say that all body parts have only one function?

[error-dot-tar]

Why exactly is the default answer outside of bad automatically good?

I never understood this.