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Do you believe in hell?

yes 0.41874376869392 41.9% [ 420 ]
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Celeblin Galadeneryn's avatar
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Roucao, you might want to look through you list For Nebucchanezzer, because that's who Isaiah was refering to as Lucifer.

Wait, I found it for you, it's in Dynasty IV
Celeblin Galadeneryn
Roucao, you might want to look through you list For Nebucchanezzer, because that's who Isaiah was refering to as Lucifer.

Wait, I found it for you, it's in Dynasty IV

In what way? what are you reffering towards. that Nebucchanezzer is lucifur? I do not mean to seem ignorant simply how did you draw this conclusion?

EDIT: Nebucchanezzer? that is the one in Daniel the righteous one isn't it who believes in the translation of his dream?
Also quoting from wiki "His name in Akkadian Nabû-kudurri-uṣur, is variously interpreted as "O Nebo, defend my offspring" " wheras lucifur as is common knowledge refers to son of the morning.
Roucao
Celeblin Galadeneryn
Roucao, you might want to look through you list For Nebucchanezzer, because that's who Isaiah was refering to as Lucifer.

Wait, I found it for you, it's in Dynasty IV

In what way? what are you reffering towards. that Nebucchanezzer is lucifur? I do not mean to seem ignorant simply how did you draw this conclusion?

EDIT: Nebucchanezzer? that is the one in Daniel the righteous one isn't it who believes in the translation of his dream?
Also quoting from wiki "His name in Akkadian Nabû-kudurri-uṣur, is variously interpreted as "O Nebo, defend my offspring" " wheras lucifur as is common knowledge refers to son of the morning.


The Hebrew, incidentally, is as follows (contrasted with Ye Olde KJV).

How art thou fallen [05307] naphal 8804: Qal Perfect
from heaven, [08064] shamayim
O Lucifer, [01966] heylel
son [01121] ben
of the morning [07837] shachar 8676:
(with Strongs #) [03213] yalal 8685: Hiphil Imperative
[how] art thou cut down [01438] gada` 8738: Niphal Perfect
to the ground, [0776] 'erets
which didst weaken [02522] chalash 8802: Qal Participle Active
the nations! [01471] gowy

"heylel ben shachar" appears to be an allusion to Lucifer, through a direct reference to the King of Babylon.

I've found a fairly lucid Web page concerning the matter, which may have some relevant points. As yet, I have not checked all the references, and it appears to make an assumption about Jerome at the end of the article. That notwithstanding, it appears to be credible and supported by relevant research.

http://pelajus.com/lucifer.html
Translations

First off, let's see how some other versions, other than the NIV translate this phrase:

"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn!" The New American Standard Bible.

"How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning!" The New Living Translation.

"How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn!" The Revised Standard Version

How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn!" The New Revised Standard Version

"How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn!" Young's Literal Translation.

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning!" American Standard (1901).

"King of Babylon, morning star, you have fallen from heaven," New Century Version

"King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven!" The Good News Bible in Today's English Version

King of Babylon, Not Satan

Look at the last two citations, the New Century Version and the Good News Bible (TEV). Notice that they, both, start this verse addressing the King of Babylon. Could it be, that after all these years, some are claiming that Isa. 14:12 is not about Satan/Lucifer, but about someone else? In a word, yes. And this translation has great support down through the ages.

The Geneva Bible, 1549
In the Geneva Bible, published in 1549, they did use the word, "Lucifer":

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer*, son of the morning!

Please notice the asterisk, in that verse, behind the name of Lucifer. That is there because the translators of the Geneva Bible, 60 years before the King James (therefore not a part of any New Age plot) put an explanatory footnote here. Here is what they said about the word "Lucifer." "You who thought yourself most glorious and as it were placed in the heaven for the morning star that goes before the sun, is called Lucifer, to whom Nebuchadnezzar is compared."

Did you see that? These translators, 60 years before the King James, say that this verse is not about Satan, but Nebuchadnezzar. Admittedly, they do believe that Nebuchadnezzar is being compared to Lucifer, but they recognize that this verse, this Lucifer, is not Satan, but the King of Babylon.

Matthew Henry, 1706
Next stop, Matthew Henry, King of Commentators. If a minister doesn't have a Matthew Henry's Commentary in his pastoral library, then his ministerial library is sadly lacking. In 1706, in writing his commentary, Henry had this to say about Isaiah 14:12.

"The king of Babylon shone as brightly as the morning star, and fancied that wherever he came he brought day along with him; and has such an illustrious prince as this fallen, such a star become a clod of clay? Did ever any man fall from such a height of honour and power into such an abyss of shame and misery?'' This has been commonly alluded to (and it is a mere allusion) to illustrate the fall of the angels, who were as morning stars (Job 38:7),"

Henry, considered one of the greatest of Biblical commentators, says that this refers to the king of Babylon, making no mention of Lucifer being Satan's first name. And, please note, yes, Henry does say that preachers have used this to allude to the fall of angels, but, "IT IS A MERE ALLUSION."

And, further note, please, that Henry does not say that the title morning star is reserved for Christ alone, but is the biblical term for angels, as well. The thinking of the KJO cultists runs along this line:

a. Christ is called the Morning Star in Rev. 22:16.
b. The Morning Star is Christ' title.
c. New translations translate Lucifer, in Isa. 14:12, as Morning Star.
d. New translations are trying to identify Christ with Lucifer.

But, as Matthew Henry pointed out, the term "morning star" is not exclusively Christ's title. Angels, Henry noted, were called "morning stars" in the book of Job. So much for the reasoning capability of KJO cultists.

John Wesley, 1754-1765
John Wesley, founder of Methodism, wrote in his Notes on the Bible, 1754-1765, this about Isaiah 14:12

"Lucifer - Which properly is a bright star, that ushers in the morning; but is here metaphorically taken for the mighty king of Babylon."

Wesley, not a New Ager, by any stretch of the imagination, tells us that this word mean a bright star, and is a metaphor for the king of Babylon.

Adam Clarke, 1760-1832,
In his Commentary on the Bible, Adam Clarke wrote this about "Lucifer."

"Verse 12. O Lucifer, [son of the morning] The Versions in general agree in this translation, and render kkyh heilel as signifying Lucifer, the morning star, whether Jupiter or Venus; as these are both bringers of the morning light, or morning stars, annually in their turn. And although the context speaks explicitly concerning Nebuchadnezzar, yet this has been, I know not why, applied to the chief of the fallen angels, who is most incongruously denominated Lucifer, (the bringer of light!) an epithet as common to him as those of Satan and Devil. That the Holy Spirit by his prophets should call this arch-enemy of God and man the light-bringer, would be strange indeed. But the truth is, the text speaks nothing at all concerning Satan nor his fall, nor the occasion of that fall, which many divines have with great confidence deduced from this text. O how necessary it is to understand the literal meaning of Scripture, that preposterous comments may be prevented! Besides, I doubt much whether our translation be correct. llqh heilel, which we translate Lucifer, comes from llq yalal, yell, howl, or shriek, and should be translated, "Howl, son of the morning;" and so the Syriac has understood it; and for this meaning Michaelis contends"

Clarke does not beat around the bush. As he puts it, "the truth is, the text speaks nothing at all concerning Satan nor his fall, nor the occasion of that fall, which many divines have with great confidence deduced from this text." To Clarke, the idea that the Holy Spirit would give the name of Light-Bringer to Satan is both "strange" and "preposterous."

Smith's Bible Dictionary, 1860
Smith's Bible Dictionary, 1860, has this reference for Lucifer:

"(light-bearer ), found in (Isaiah 14:12) coupled with the epithet "son of the morning," clearly signifies a "bright star," and probably what we call the morning star. In this passage it is a symbolical representation of the king of Babylon in his splendor and in his fall. ITS APPLICATION, FROM ST. JEROME DOWNWARD, TO SATAN IN HIS FALL FROM HEAVEN arises probably from the fact that the Babylonian empire is in Scripture represented as the type of tyrannical and self idolizing power, and especially connected with the empire of the Evil One in the Apocalypse."

(I placed one section of this quote in caps, to highlight it, the statement that "St." Jerome, the translator of the Latin Vulgate bible, is the source of the belief that Lucifer is Satan's pre-Fall name. I discuss Jerome as the source of the idea that Lucifer was Satan's name, and that it was foreign to the writers of the Bible, below.)

This venerable bible dictionary tells us what others before him have said, that the Hebrew word that the King James translates as "Lucifer" is actually referring to the Morning Star, Venus, which is seen in the sky at dawn. Smith tells us, like all the others above, that this is a reference to the king of Babylon, and further tells us that the idea of the word "Lucifer" referring to Satan comes from the Catholic writer, Jerome.

Jamieson, Faussett and Brown, 1871
Another of the standards in biblical commentary, Jamieson, Faussett and Brown, 1871, wrote this about the passage in Isaiah 14:12-15.

"THE JEWS ADDRESS HIM AGAIN AS A FALLEN ONCE-BRIGHT STAR.
The language is so framed as to apply to the Babylonian king primarily, and at the same time to shadow forth through him, the great final enemy, the man of sin, Antichrist, of Daniel, St. Paul, and St. John; he alone shall fulfil exhaustively all the lineaments here given."

and

"Lucifer--"day star." A title truly belonging to Christ (Revelation 22:16), "the bright and morning star," and therefore hereafter to be assumed by Antichrist. "

Did you see that? JFB says that this refers to, primarily, to Nebuchadnezzar, but can be seen to apply to, not Satan, but Anti-Christ. An interesting interpretation, especially when they bolster the interpretation with the statement that the title "Day Star" belongs to Christ, and will be assumed by the anti-Christ. But it is still just an interpretation. What is not in doubt, is that this is another commentator, another commentary, that says that Isa. 14:12 does NOT refer to Satan, but to the king of Babylon.

George Easton (1823-1894)
This is what Easton's Bible Dictionary says about Lucifer:

"brilliant star, a title given to the king of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) to denote his glory. "

Another reference tool saying that this is Nebuchadnezzar, and not Satan.

Orville Nave, early 1900's
Nave's Topical Bible (early 1900's) has this entry for Lucifer:

"Nebuchadnezzar called by this name"

Source for Lucifer as Satan

I did find another translation translation of the Bible that did agree with the King James reading, of using the name Lucifer, in this verse:

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?" The Douay-Rheims Bible

Is there a good reason why the Roman Catholic Douay Bible puts the name Lucifer in here, when all of the newer translations carry the idea of the morning star? Yes. In fact, the name Lucifer is directly traceable to a Catholic priest, the translator of the Bible in Latin, Jerome.

As noted in Smith's Bible Dictionary, above, the idea that the Pre-Adamic name of Satan was Lucifer dates from the time of Jerome, the translator of the Bible from Hebrew and Greek into Latin. The word, in the Hebrew, that is translated "Lucifer" by the King James and the Douay is heylel, and which means "shining one." In his excellent on-line article, Brian Tegart, says this about Jerome as the source of the name, "Lucifer."

The use of "Lucifer" appears to have originated from the Latin Vulgate. The Vulgate was produced by Jerome (c. 347-420) by translating available Greek and Hebrew manuscripts into Latin. It was started in approximately 382 A.D. and was completed in approximately 405 A.D. It was the scriptures used by the Catholic Church for nearly 1000 years....It would seem that Jerome understood the meaning of the Hebrew word heylel, and translated it into "lucifer", the Latin word meaning "light bearer" (from the Latin lux "light" and ferre "to bear or bring." wink . Because many people thought this passage was referring to Satan, people began to think of the term of "lucifer" as a proper name "Lucifer". However, this is not what "lucifer" meant. "lucifer", at the time of the Vulgate and even at the time of the KJV translation, meant "morning star" or "day star" in reference to Venus. Even though Jerome himself (and others before him) thought the passage was referring to Satan, he did not use the word "lucifer" to mean "Satan" - his view that the passage was referring to Satan was purely an interpretational issue of the entire passage - the term "lucifer" was not used to indicate Satan in any way.
When these people talk about hell as a flaming oblivion, they may not mean physical flames, but the flames of guilt and knowing the life we lived was useless. And you may say, well, I did many great things in life, so why would I UNFAIRLY be sent to hell? But this is is completely fair, because every moment you spend turned from God, you make his heart dark like hell. Don't get me wrong, he has no evil in him, but every one of his creations, even Satan, causes him emmense pain. Seperation burns his heart to the core.

Hell was created BY God for Satan and his demons, and NOT for mankind. This is crucial. Man was never meant to glimpse eternal torture within and without. But those who don't recognize The son of God for the hell he faced for them, hell is nothing. In the end, we have to think. What authroity am I living a great, yet non christian life under. If God rules those who belive him, and Satan all the rest, You are still seving Satan.

And followers share in their masters punishments. That is why there is hell.
Elf your wonderfully composed information boils down to this. Lucifur = A king of Babylon. tell me then when did king Lucifur reign?

also let me rephrase Nebucchanezzer is being equated to lucifur meaning they are being compared Neb. is not lucifur right? (this is what was told to me by another-- Celeblin)
You Got Godmail's avatar
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Because Heaven is open only to His followers.

He will forgive you if you choose to follow Him.

Why should He forgive one who turns away from Him and disobeys His commandments?
Roucao
Elf your wonderfully composed information boils down to this. Lucifur = A king of Babylon. tell me then when did king Lucifur reign?

^^
It's not so much an equation as a metaphor. I've explained it and cited further sources below.

Roucao

also let me rephrase Nebucchanezzer is being equated to lucifur meaning they are being compared Neb. is not lucifur right? (this is what was told to me by another-- Celeblin)
It's an allusion to Lucifer, meaning that Nebuchadnezzar is being compared to Lucifer.

It doesn't say Lucifer, because it doesn't directly refer to Lucifer. Lucifer, in this case, only shows up after Jerome's involvement, and not in the original Hebrew.

Wikipedia
In modern and late Medieval Christian thought, Lucifer is a fallen angel commonly associated with Satan, the embodiment of evil and enemy of God. Lucifer is generally considered, based on the influence of Christian literature and legend, to have been a prominent archangel in heaven (although some contexts say he was a cherub or a seraph), prior to having been motivated by pride to rebel against God. When the rebellion failed, Lucifer was cast out of heaven, along with a third of the heavenly host, and came to reside on the world.

Lucifer was originally a Latin word meaning "light-bearer" (from lux, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring" wink , a Roman astrological term for the "Morning Star", the planet Venus. The word Lucifer was the direct translation of the Greek eosphorus ("dawn-bearer"; cf. Greek phosphorus, "light-bearer" wink used by Jerome in the Vulgate. In that passage, Isaiah 14:12, it referred to one of the popular honorific titles of a Babylonian king; however, later interpretations of the text, and the influence of embellishments in works such as Dante's The Divine Comedy and Milton's Paradise Lost, led to the common idea in Christian mythology and folklore that Lucifer was a poetic appellation of Satan.


Wikipedia
Origins in Isaiah

In the Vulgate, an early-5th-century translation of the Bible into Latin by Jerome, Lucifer occurs in Isaiah 14:12-14 as a translation of the Greek word heosphorus ("dawn-bearer" wink , an epithet of Venus. The original Hebrew text of this verse was הילל בן שחר (heilel ben-schahar), meaning "Helel son of Shahar." Helel was a Babylonian / Canaanite god who was the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god named Shahar.

Helel was the god of the morning star and his father was Shahar, god of the dawn. Some translations of Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning!" American Standard Version translating Hebrew Helel as "day-star" and the Hebrew word Ben as son and the Hebrew word Shahar as "of the morning." Others translate it as "Lucifer, son of the morning" 21st Century King James.

In Isaiah, this title is specifically used, in a prophetic vision, to reference the king of Babylon's pride and to illustrate his eventual fate by referencing mythological accounts of the planet Venus:

14:4 You will recite this parable about the king of Babylonia: How has the oppressor come to an end, the arrogance been ended?
14:10 They will all proclaim and say to you, "You also have been stricken as we were; you are compared to us.
14:11 Brought down to the nether-world were your pride and the tumult of your stringed instruments; maggots are spread out under you, and worms are your covers.
14:12 How have you fallen from the heavens, O glowing morning star; been cut down to the ground O conqueror of nations?
(Isaiah, Artscroll Tanakh)

The Jewish Encyclopedia reports that "it is obvious that the prophet in attributing to the Babylonian king boastful pride, followed by a fall, borrowed the idea from a popular legend connected with the morning star".[1]

In modern Jewish theology, Helel in Isaiah 14 is not equated with the Jewish concept of HaSatan (the adversary). Instead, the prophet is speaking of the fall of Babylon and along with it the fall of her false gods Helel and Shahar. In Judaism there is no concept of a devil. There is satan which is a Hebrew word meaning "adversary" and in the Tanakh one will find many instances of the word used to describe human and angelic adversaries to man.

Later Jewish tradition, influenced by Babylonian mythology acquired during the Babylonian captivity, elaborated on the fall of the angels under the leadership of Samhazai ("the heaven-seizer" wink and Azael (Enoch, book vi.6f). Another legend, in the midrash, represents the repentant Samhazai suspended star-like between heaven and earth instead of being hurled down to Sheol.

The Helel-Lucifer (i.e. Venus) myth was later transferred to Satan, as evidenced by the 1st-century pseudepigraphical text Vita Adae et Evae (12), where the Adversary gives Adam an account of his early career,[2] and the Slavonic Book of Enoch (xxix. 4, xxxi. 4), where Satan-Sataniel (Sataniel/Satanel "The Keeper of Hell" wink (Samael?) is also described as a former archangel. Because he contrived "to make his throne higher than the clouds over the earth and resemble 'My power' on high", Satan-Sataniel was hurled down, with his hosts of angels, to fly in the air continually above the abyss.
BlackShadow03's avatar
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mouseylae02
Because Heaven is open only to His followers.

He will forgive you if you choose to follow Him.

Why should He forgive one who turns away from Him and disobeys His commandments?


Because he made sure his existance was so obscure as to end up with some followers who refuse to think for themselves and those that actively deny the world around them in favor of a book. Does he prefer the blind follower over the upstanding soul?
If you don't ask forgivness it will not be given to you, if you ask it will, pluss there is a price for everything, and sins price is death. Fore those who believe, Jesus payed our way.
Marayru
If you don't ask forgivness it will not be given to you, if you ask it will, pluss there is a price for everything, and sins price is death. Fore those who believe, Jesus payed our way.
Care to recite something you didn't hear from a preacher's garbled version of Paul's epistles and the four Gospels?
Phillfo
Theres hell because there has to be a place for people who dont believe in God or that Jesus died for our sins
hell only exists to those that belive in it. me personally i belive that there is no hell no heaven no god nor jesus. so therefore when i do die then i will go to whereever i bekive at the time
I honestly don't know. I wish I did though. Maybe I'll just try not to ******** up just in case.
hell is where the unforgivin-worldl-ypeople go.
darkfire2010
Celeblin Galadeneryn
Odd Decision
hvns_missin_this_angel
The way it was explained to me is that there is a hell for people who deny Jesus flat out. Not for people who sin, and not for people who are born a certain way....but if you don't believe in Christ, and you've denied him all of your life, that is when you go to Hell.

Not believing in CHrist IS sentence to Hell.
Period.
That's why it's so full of BS I think, and why Christianity is fluffy, pink, and has half of history's blood on its hands.

Wrong. Period.

Heathens cannot be punished for never recieving the word of Christ, therefore if they are benevolent, they can go to heaven.

Secondly, it you start spouting ANYTHING about wars Christianity has started, you're going to prove yourself a fool. Most wars that have been started for so-called religious reason are really using religion as a scapegoat for other motivations. Example: ALL of the Crusades (except for maybe the People's Crusade, which was by far the smallest and most unsuccessful.)


Might I add that you are wrong about people never knowing the Word of God. "Period"
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.


Yeah, that's nice, but if you're going to hold that passage as true, you can't insinuate that it means that all people have had the "opportunity" to be "saved" by knowing about Jesus, because there were and are people who died and will die without knowing about Jesus.

I think I can also hold my earlier point about the unfairness of such a doctrine unrefuted. I need to make a thread about why it makes no sense, Biblically and philosophically.
Wise Guru
angelbabykat
makaze34
Burn_the_Witch
The only place that bible mentions a firey torment is with the illustration of Lazerus and the Rich Man,...

other than that it states that the soul is concious of nothing at all....meaning that how can a sould be tourmented eternally when it isn't concious....

I don't believe in hell..it goes against everything the bible says about God being a loving and caring God.

Hell is a place Satan made not God


Who is satan can you say that for sure? And if god really forgave he wouldn/t let there be a hell right?

God forgives but you can't let bad people into heaven. And satan also known as Lucifer was once an angel that wanted to be greater than God so God banished him. Now the reason bad things happen is because of Satan.
Unfortunately, speaking to you on the topic doesn't do anything seeing how you clearly have a bias toward the subject.

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