"I don't believe in any gods, but I'm not an atheist..."

[trajik007]

I hope this has already been said, but I'm not going through six more pages to find out. I can give my whole argument in two definitions. First, in debate, it is always necessary to define what you mean. In doing so, I hope it clears a little something up.

"a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/
noun
noun: atheism

disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism;
nihilism"


"ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/
noun
noun: agnostic; plural noun: agnostics

1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
synonyms: skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic"

While the two are closely related, they by no way mean the same. So therefore it is possibly to be a faithful person without prescribing to any already existing religious or spiritual movement.

[The Legendary Guest]

trajik007

I hope this has already been said, but I'm not going through six more pages to find out. I can give my whole argument in two definitions. First, in debate, it is always necessary to define what you mean. In doing so, I hope it clears a little something up.

"a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/
noun
noun: atheism

disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism;
nihilism"


"ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/
noun
noun: agnostic; plural noun: agnostics

1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
synonyms: skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic"

While the two are closely related, they by no way mean the same. So therefore it is possibly to be a faithful person without prescribing to any already existing religious or spiritual movement.

First, I reject both of your definitions. Disbelief implies the rejection or refusal to accept that which is actually demonstrably true. The existence of gods is not demonstrably true. It is not possible to believe yet not believe at the same time. These are two mutually exclusive states of being.

Next, you need to explain what you mean by "faith" because a person who lacks religious faith cannot have it and yet not at the same time.

[trajik007]

The Legendary Guest

trajik007

I hope this has already been said, but I'm not going through six more pages to find out. I can give my whole argument in two definitions. First, in debate, it is always necessary to define what you mean. In doing so, I hope it clears a little something up.

"a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/
noun
noun: atheism

disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism;
nihilism"


"ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/
noun
noun: agnostic; plural noun: agnostics

1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
synonyms: skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic"

While the two are closely related, they by no way mean the same. So therefore it is possibly to be a faithful person without prescribing to any already existing religious or spiritual movement.

First, I reject both of your definitions. Disbelief implies the rejection or refusal to accept that which is actually demonstrably true. The existence of gods is not demonstrably true. It is not possible to believe yet not believe at the same time. These are two mutually exclusive states of being.

Next, you need to explain what you mean by "faith" because a person who lacks religious faith cannot have it and yet not at the same time.

Sources for first definitions:
1 and 2.

I define faith as the one used in the first example here:
"faith
fāTH/
noun
noun: faith

1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians"
synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction; More
optimism, hopefulness, hope


antonyms: mistrust
2.
strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
synonyms: religion, church, sect, denomination, (religious) persuasion, (religious) belief, ideology, creed, teaching, doctrine"

...For which the source is this.

[Sugar Frosted Steel]

The Legendary Guest

Infamy In Action

The Legendary Guest

Infamy In Action

The Legendary Guest

Do not confuse the fact that a "popular sense" exists with the actual philosophical stance. It is not possible to believe yet not believe, and to claim that an atheist disbelieves is incorrect. They lack belief. Disbelief implies that the atheist rejects something which actually exists to them.

I'm saying that they can't say for 100% that there isn't a god, that doesn't imply that they believe in them, just that they can't disprove one.

That's correct.

Quote:

I don't see that at all. Disbelief is not believing. Like you said, you can't believe and not believe.

Did you bother to check my link out?

From merriam-webster.com: a feeling that you do not or cannot believe or accept that something is true or real

From thefreedictionary.com: refusal or reluctance to believe

In the English language, disbelief carries the implication that what is not believed in actually true or real, and the person who disbelieves is refusing to accept that. This is NOT the position of an atheist, who merely lacks any belief. There are dictionaries that define disbelief as simply not believing, yet the implication in the language remains. The position is a lack, not a refusal to accept what is true. One stares in disbelief, for example, with the implication that you cannot believe something that is actually happening. This subtle difference is what creates confusion in this situation.

I did actually, and I got the same thing I said. I get what your saying, I think contextually speaking it's generally a physical reaction towards another action rather than a mental state towards people or things. So I probably just used the wrong word considering... maybe a different word then? Unbelief or non belief?
:L

Yea, and I'm not trying to jump all over you for it, just alert you to a common issue that crops up, that's all. I personally do not wish to give anybody a single inch to stand upon to misrepresent what atheism actually is, know what I mean?

I use lack of belief, or variations thereof, wherever possible. I will rearrange my sentences to get that in there, at least until such time as people get it through their skulls what we mean when we say we don't believe.

Yea, I understand. I didn't get the impression that you were, but I didn't completely get what you meant.

I see. According to some people you can't not believe, you're just angry with god.X)

[The Legendary Guest]

trajik007

The Legendary Guest

trajik007

I hope this has already been said, but I'm not going through six more pages to find out. I can give my whole argument in two definitions. First, in debate, it is always necessary to define what you mean. In doing so, I hope it clears a little something up.

"a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/
noun
noun: atheism

disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism;
nihilism"


"ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/
noun
noun: agnostic; plural noun: agnostics

1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
synonyms: skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic"

While the two are closely related, they by no way mean the same. So therefore it is possibly to be a faithful person without prescribing to any already existing religious or spiritual movement.

First, I reject both of your definitions. Disbelief implies the rejection or refusal to accept that which is actually demonstrably true. The existence of gods is not demonstrably true. It is not possible to believe yet not believe at the same time. These are two mutually exclusive states of being.

Next, you need to explain what you mean by "faith" because a person who lacks religious faith cannot have it and yet not at the same time.

Sources for first definitions:
1 and 2.

I define faith as the one used in the first example here:
"faith
fāTH/
noun
noun: faith

1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians"
synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction; More
optimism, hopefulness, hope


antonyms: mistrust
2.
strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
synonyms: religion, church, sect, denomination, (religious) persuasion, (religious) belief, ideology, creed, teaching, doctrine"

...For which the source is this.

Clearly your sources are dictionaries. For what reason are you asserting that the definitions are correct, other than Google?

The first example is not an example of religious faith. It is a synonym for "trust" therefore it is fallacious to conflate it with religious faith. One can be a person who trusts other people with or without religious faith. Try to be precise and not make semantic errors.

[The Legendary Guest]

Infamy In Action

The Legendary Guest

Infamy In Action

The Legendary Guest

Infamy In Action

I'm saying that they can't say for 100% that there isn't a god, that doesn't imply that they believe in them, just that they can't disprove one.

That's correct.

Quote:

I don't see that at all. Disbelief is not believing. Like you said, you can't believe and not believe.

Did you bother to check my link out?

From merriam-webster.com: a feeling that you do not or cannot believe or accept that something is true or real

From thefreedictionary.com: refusal or reluctance to believe

In the English language, disbelief carries the implication that what is not believed in actually true or real, and the person who disbelieves is refusing to accept that. This is NOT the position of an atheist, who merely lacks any belief. There are dictionaries that define disbelief as simply not believing, yet the implication in the language remains. The position is a lack, not a refusal to accept what is true. One stares in disbelief, for example, with the implication that you cannot believe something that is actually happening. This subtle difference is what creates confusion in this situation.

I did actually, and I got the same thing I said. I get what your saying, I think contextually speaking it's generally a physical reaction towards another action rather than a mental state towards people or things. So I probably just used the wrong word considering... maybe a different word then? Unbelief or non belief?
:L

Yea, and I'm not trying to jump all over you for it, just alert you to a common issue that crops up, that's all. I personally do not wish to give anybody a single inch to stand upon to misrepresent what atheism actually is, know what I mean?

I use lack of belief, or variations thereof, wherever possible. I will rearrange my sentences to get that in there, at least until such time as people get it through their skulls what we mean when we say we don't believe.

Yea, I understand. I didn't get the impression that you were, but I didn't completely get what you meant.

I see. According to some people you can't not believe, you're just angry with god.X)

Exactly! and we really want to avoid giving them any way to work that into the discussion, don't we? emotion_brofist

[Sugar Frosted Steel]

trajik007

I hope this has already been said, but I'm not going through six more pages to find out. I can give my whole argument in two definitions. First, in debate, it is always necessary to define what you mean. In doing so, I hope it clears a little something up.

"a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/
noun
noun: atheism

disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism;
nihilism"


"ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/
noun
noun: agnostic; plural noun: agnostics

1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
synonyms: skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic"

While the two are closely related, they by no way mean the same. So therefore it is possibly to be a faithful person without prescribing to any already existing religious or spiritual movement.

I said agnostic atheist. Someone who knows they can't prove 100% there is no god, but for seriously doubts it.

[Sugar Frosted Steel]

The Legendary Guest

Infamy In Action

The Legendary Guest

Infamy In Action

The Legendary Guest

That's correct.



Did you bother to check my link out?

From merriam-webster.com: a feeling that you do not or cannot believe or accept that something is true or real

From thefreedictionary.com: refusal or reluctance to believe

In the English language, disbelief carries the implication that what is not believed in actually true or real, and the person who disbelieves is refusing to accept that. This is NOT the position of an atheist, who merely lacks any belief. There are dictionaries that define disbelief as simply not believing, yet the implication in the language remains. The position is a lack, not a refusal to accept what is true. One stares in disbelief, for example, with the implication that you cannot believe something that is actually happening. This subtle difference is what creates confusion in this situation.

I did actually, and I got the same thing I said. I get what your saying, I think contextually speaking it's generally a physical reaction towards another action rather than a mental state towards people or things. So I probably just used the wrong word considering... maybe a different word then? Unbelief or non belief?
:L

Yea, and I'm not trying to jump all over you for it, just alert you to a common issue that crops up, that's all. I personally do not wish to give anybody a single inch to stand upon to misrepresent what atheism actually is, know what I mean?

I use lack of belief, or variations thereof, wherever possible. I will rearrange my sentences to get that in there, at least until such time as people get it through their skulls what we mean when we say we don't believe.

Yea, I understand. I didn't get the impression that you were, but I didn't completely get what you meant.

I see. According to some people you can't not believe, you're just angry with god.X)

Exactly! and we really want to avoid giving them any way to work that into the discussion, don't we? emotion_brofist

fer sure~ smile

[The Legendary Guest]

Infamy In Action

The Legendary Guest

Infamy In Action

The Legendary Guest

Infamy In Action

The Legendary Guest

That's correct.



Did you bother to check my link out?

From merriam-webster.com: a feeling that you do not or cannot believe or accept that something is true or real

From thefreedictionary.com: refusal or reluctance to believe

In the English language, disbelief carries the implication that what is not believed in actually true or real, and the person who disbelieves is refusing to accept that. This is NOT the position of an atheist, who merely lacks any belief. There are dictionaries that define disbelief as simply not believing, yet the implication in the language remains. The position is a lack, not a refusal to accept what is true. One stares in disbelief, for example, with the implication that you cannot believe something that is actually happening. This subtle difference is what creates confusion in this situation.

I did actually, and I got the same thing I said. I get what your saying, I think contextually speaking it's generally a physical reaction towards another action rather than a mental state towards people or things. So I probably just used the wrong word considering... maybe a different word then? Unbelief or non belief?
:L

Yea, and I'm not trying to jump all over you for it, just alert you to a common issue that crops up, that's all. I personally do not wish to give anybody a single inch to stand upon to misrepresent what atheism actually is, know what I mean?

I use lack of belief, or variations thereof, wherever possible. I will rearrange my sentences to get that in there, at least until such time as people get it through their skulls what we mean when we say we don't believe.

Yea, I understand. I didn't get the impression that you were, but I didn't completely get what you meant.

I see. According to some people you can't not believe, you're just angry with god.X)

Exactly! and we really want to avoid giving them any way to work that into the discussion, don't we? emotion_brofist

fer sure~ smile

Hey love your avatar change, super-cute!

[Sugar Frosted Steel]

The Legendary Guest

Infamy In Action

The Legendary Guest

Infamy In Action

The Legendary Guest

Yea, and I'm not trying to jump all over you for it, just alert you to a common issue that crops up, that's all. I personally do not wish to give anybody a single inch to stand upon to misrepresent what atheism actually is, know what I mean?

I use lack of belief, or variations thereof, wherever possible. I will rearrange my sentences to get that in there, at least until such time as people get it through their skulls what we mean when we say we don't believe.

Yea, I understand. I didn't get the impression that you were, but I didn't completely get what you meant.

I see. According to some people you can't not believe, you're just angry with god.X)

Exactly! and we really want to avoid giving them any way to work that into the discussion, don't we? emotion_brofist

fer sure~ smile

Hey love your avatar change, super-cute!

Thanks! I like it, but I need to keep working on it before I love it. smile
Your avatars are always awesome~ heart heart

[The Legendary Guest]

Infamy In Action

The Legendary Guest

Infamy In Action

The Legendary Guest

Infamy In Action

The Legendary Guest

Yea, and I'm not trying to jump all over you for it, just alert you to a common issue that crops up, that's all. I personally do not wish to give anybody a single inch to stand upon to misrepresent what atheism actually is, know what I mean?

I use lack of belief, or variations thereof, wherever possible. I will rearrange my sentences to get that in there, at least until such time as people get it through their skulls what we mean when we say we don't believe.

Yea, I understand. I didn't get the impression that you were, but I didn't completely get what you meant.

I see. According to some people you can't not believe, you're just angry with god.X)

Exactly! and we really want to avoid giving them any way to work that into the discussion, don't we? emotion_brofist

fer sure~ smile

Hey love your avatar change, super-cute!

Thanks! I like it, but I need to keep working on it before I love it. smile
Your avatars are always awesome~ heart heart

I know that feeling, all too well. I've been at Gaia a looong time.
Thank you! It takes a certain mood to pull these off anymore. I am either on fire or cannot put anything together in my while wardrobe. There is no in between.

[Sugar Frosted Steel]

The Legendary Guest

Infamy In Action

The Legendary Guest

Infamy In Action

The Legendary Guest

Exactly! and we really want to avoid giving them any way to work that into the discussion, don't we? emotion_brofist

fer sure~ smile

Hey love your avatar change, super-cute!

Thanks! I like it, but I need to keep working on it before I love it. smile
Your avatars are always awesome~ heart heart

I know that feeling, all too well. I've been at Gaia a looong time.
Thank you! It takes a certain mood to pull these off anymore. I am either on fire or cannot put anything together in my while wardrobe. There is no in between.

Exactly! If I get stuck I try to find a new item to pull it together,or give up. X)

[0lexis]

Amarok Anernerk

Some people still prefer the dictionary/archaic definition of atheism as the belief in no gods rather than the lack of belief in a god. To that end any and all agnostics would not fit the bill. Personally I think the PEOPLE should decide what words mean and the dictionary should comply accordingly. Thus to me atheism DOES INDEED mean simply the lack of belief in god. But additionally I don't really care what you call me. Names are just the skin of the meat. I just fancy the word atheist over agnostic because it is the term adopted by the more activist agnostics in our country.

Interesting you say that.
Atheist is the opposite of theist. These terms deal specifically with whether or not an individual believes in deistic claims.

However gnosticism and agnosticism are a different topic. These two terms refer to an individual's knowledge claims. This is why you can be an agnostic atheist (does not believe in god, does not claim to know whether a god exists or not), an agnostic theist (believes there is a god, but admits they cannot know for sure if they're correct in their belief), a gnostic atheist (claims to know there are no gods), or a gnostic theist (claims to know there is a god).

You can be agnostic or gnostic to topics other than theism or atheism. For instance, I am agnostic towards abiogenesis... but I am gnostic towards geocentrism. I don't know whether abiogenesis is a valid hypothesis, but I do know that geocentrism is not a valid hypothesis.

Theism and atheism are a kind of rigid dichotomy. You either believe in gods, or you don't.

[I_Write_Ivre]

FaceThatMeows

Theism and atheism are a kind of rigid dichotomy. You either believe in gods, or you don't.

Odd. I don't feel that way and it's why I've had a hard time defining myself religiously.

[0lexis]

I_Write_Ivre

FaceThatMeows

Theism and atheism are a kind of rigid dichotomy. You either believe in gods, or you don't.

Odd. I don't feel that way and it's why I've had a hard time defining myself religiously.

I have a feeling you either didn't read the rest of my post, or you misunderstand it.
If you care to explain why you feel differently, I'd be interested in reading what you have to say.