Humanity's Default, good or evil?

[Durzael]

Ittan

We're born human. Good and evil are both ideas created by humans. Language itself is created by humans. We arent born anything at all, other than a sac of water and meat on bones. Parents fill our brains with ideas of good and evil, right and wrong, clean and dirty, rules and regulations. We decide all this is the way the rest of the world sees these things and anyone who sees them differently is wrong. Blah blah blah. If you dont understand me now you wont for a long time.

THIS is a way of thinking that has interested me greatly. I completely agree with the good and evil are ideas, and all of that, but then, part of it goes into spirituality, because if you believe in a god, said god could have created good and/or evil.

[Islington]

Kia127

Islington

its not possible to find out, at least psychologically, it could be that certain simple functions come built in.

But those functions, adding, subtracting, at least the idea of 4-2=2, the concepts of numbers and what they mean, are taught by fellow humans...
unless you are suggesting that you give a wild man who's never spoken or met humans a math test and he'd know what to do?

I think the OP referred to wrong and right as moral stuffs, not math though.. sweatdrop

a math test ?No. however show him 2 apples take away 1 and then show a result of 2apples left and he will know something is wrong.
All I am saying is that if there are functions such as these that are built into us, then why not a moral scale? Surely a creature with an inbuilt moral scale has an advatage in surviving over an animal without one?

[On Your Six]

Islington

a math test ?No. however show him 2 apples take away 1 and then show a result of 2apples left and he will know something is wrong.

OOH!
I thought you were referring to actual printed cards or something, not noticing something's different.
That's just a trait of observing one's environment I think...
the fact that it wasn't the same as before peaks their interest maybe?

Quote:

All I am saying is that if there are functions such as these that are built into us, then why not a moral scale?

It doesn't seem a function of knowing what's wrong or right so much as a function to LEARN...

Quote:

Surely a creature with an inbuilt moral scale has an advatage in surviving over an animal without one?

Moral scale? By who's standards? Morals have most certainly changed with cultures and time, are you suggesting that a person is born into a culture already knowing the morals of that culture?

[Durzael]

what natural advantage would something that was primarily a moral scale give a creature an advantage in survival?

[Islington]

Kia127

Islington

a math test ?No. however show him 2 apples take away 1 and then show a result of 2apples left and he will know something is wrong.

OOH!
I thought you were referring to actual printed cards or something, not noticing something's different.
That's just a trait of observing one's environment I think...
the fact that it wasn't the same as before peaks their interest maybe?

I believe it was teddy bears in this case, there was a correct addition, followed 15 min of time. so maybe, Ill look at it again.

Quote:

Quote:

All I am saying is that if there are functions such as these that are built into us, then why not a moral scale?

It doesn't seem a function of knowing what's wrong or right so much as a function to LEARN...

Quote:

Surely a creature with an inbuilt moral scale has an advatage in surviving over an animal without one?

Moral scale? By who's standards? Morals have most certainly changed with cultures and time, are you suggesting that a person is born into a culture already knowing the morals of that culture?

yes thats what I was sugesting, albeit not to that extent, I was thinking more along the lines of some basic common pallette, made to be specialized and modified by the culture.

[On Your Six]

Alright so you're saying they're characters in DnD starting out with their clothes and a short sword, and develop skills and the jewelry and gold and Vorpal sword +10 later on, while I'm suggesting that they are naked and need to buy clothing from the people around them first?

[Islington]

Kia127

Alright so you're saying they're characters in DnD starting out with their clothes and a short sword, and develop skills and the jewelry and gold and Vorpal sword +10 later on, while I'm suggesting that they are naked and need to buy clothing from the people around them first?

uhhh..yeah? dungeons and dragons right? havent played that since second edition. sweatdrop

Durzael: hmm, it certainly gives the group the creature belongs to some sense of security knowing that when food is short none of the menbers shall be cannabalized. unlike some reptiles and insects and such. and hyenas.

[Durzael]

Very interesting idea, I hadn't thought about the animals as a community, only as a single entity, thank you for pointing that out.

[donald0]

humans are evil from the start to the end.

reason why is simple it takes a strong will to over come our self serving tendancies. these tendancies are mostly based on a surivial sort of mentality just fine. you asked for a reason i gave it. very few people can truly over come these self serving tendancies.

[Psalm 118 24]

The only way you could tell if a human was good or evil by heart is if you could take away every possible social/environmental aspect in their life. And that's not even possible.

Unlike most animals, humans require a lot of help when they're infants. And if an infant has been fed or nurtured in any way she/he will know what good is. Human babies can't survive on their own.. so they have to know what "good" is.

I don't think anyone is purely good or purely evil either. Everyone has done good and bad deeds in their life.

Maybe I'm not making sense though.. it's 4:30 in the morning. x_x

[winter_night86]

I think that everyone is born with a sense of morality, but as they mature and develop their personalities are influenced by who and what's around them. even when evil pretty much takes over, there's still some good in all of us...deep down inside, even if we don't want to admit it. usually it caters to the innocent.

[kawaiian]

Talking about primal instincts, the only thing you're born with is a sense of self-preservation (physical needs). Morality is taught to you when you have role models to learn from, and the environment you are raised in. It doesn't come with you when you come out of a uterus because

a) how would you know how to use it and what situations to use it in and
b) you wouldn't be thinking too abstractively when you're hungry and need somewhere to eat/ pee/ flee from predators.

[Lady_Desiree]

I believe that we are affected by circumstance. I believe that if I was brought up under a whole different environment with different events that happened to me, I would be a completely different person. Like if my mom wasn't such a push-over, maybe I wouldn't have the attitude to never be a push-over, seeing how she turned out (mean, but true). Or if my Dad didn't like money so much, then maybe that would have never rubbed off on me.

donald0

humans are evil from the start to the end.

reason why is simple it takes a strong will to over come our self serving tendancies. these tendancies are mostly based on a surivial sort of mentality just fine. you asked for a reason i gave it. very few people can truly over come these self serving tendancies.

But why are these self-serving tendencies so evil? If it is born into you, then isn't it natural, making it not good or evil, but just something we do? Like peeing. You eat, you pee, you procreate, you self-preserve. I'm not going to stop peeing because the society that I live in decides that peeing is immoral.

Now keep in mind that I'm only 15 and not that bright. Feel free to prove me wrong in any way. smile

[Cheri]

Islington

Kia127

Alright so you're saying they're characters in DnD starting out with their clothes and a short sword, and develop skills and the jewelry and gold and Vorpal sword +10 later on, while I'm suggesting that they are naked and need to buy clothing from the people around them first?

uhhh..yeah? dungeons and dragons right? havent played that since second edition. sweatdrop

Durzael: hmm, it certainly gives the group the creature belongs to some sense of security knowing that when food is short none of the menbers shall be cannabalized. unlike some reptiles and insects and such. and hyenas.

See, but here the question is what is moral? In the Aztec society, that behavior was very important. The Aztecs spanned a vast territory (for the time) and had a low protein diet because of the dirth of natural resources available to them. Human sacrifice and the consumption of human flesh were both part of the Aztec rituals and key to their survival.

If a concept has been considered moral by human beings in other times (and has sustained human cultures and human lives), can it truly be considered something that is not advantageous to survival?