Hinduism / Sanatana Dharma

[CuAnnan]

EricKrasnyy

1) Wow. Talk about overly hostile. How so are they internally inconsistent? As stated earlier, Hinduism is very open to interpretation, there is no real consistency.

As stated by a white guy in America who has never studied hinduism in an academic setting?
******** that definition.
******** anyone who thinks that it should count for anything.
Culture rapists are not authoritative on what Hinduism is.

EricKrasnyy

He's a westerner who believes in Hinduism.

Nope.
He's a westerner bastardising a culture and religion he knows nothing about and calling it Hinduism.
Just like you I suspect.

EricKrasnyy

everything they believe in except maybe Wicca

Nope.

EricKrasnyy

Wicca is based on Germanic paganism.

Nope.

EricKrasnyy

2) I was just asking you to leave some one alone. I never said anything about my ethical standpoint.

For ******** sake. You said "You shouldn't ridicule a person for their beliefs"
Should not.
Why should I not?
So it turns out that you don't actually understand words. You just use them?

EricKrasnyy

If you wish for me to do this, it will take some time (I'm also currently not home), so don't expect a fast response

Yes. Yes I wish this.

EricKrasnyy

4) Had to Google this. A WASP is a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. I'm neither from New England nor of Old Money so I don't think this really applies. I don't have much English blood, truth be told as I'm mostly German of other stripes. I was raised Protestant quite strongly, but I never had a choice until later in my life like most people who stray away will tell you. I do not see what the color of my skin has to do with my faith.

Actually, it's about patterns.
It's generally White Americans, who feel they are lacking any kind of cultural identity of their own, rape and pillage other cultures for what makes them unique.

EricKrasnyy

Also, please be respectful to people. Ethics aside, it's just courtesy.

Did you completely miss the ******** point with my "stop projecting your cultural values on me" thing I was going for?
I am not of your culture.
I do not follow the mores of your culture.
I do not buy into the "you have to be nice to assholes who think that other people's cultures exist solely as decoration for them" bullshit attitude you're going for.
Respect is to be earned not demanded.
And if I have to be respectful, then why the ******** is your imperialistic "adhere to my standards because they are somehow better than yours" bullshit attitude acceptable? Because it's not very respectful, is it?
What you actually mean is "be nice and friendly and sacharine sweet". To which I say "******** no".

[Xiam]

Kaworu 17

Xiam

One of my favorite concepts is the universe itself being just a dream of... I think Vishnu?

A dream? More like a nightmare.

[Commissar Reddunz]

CuAnnan

EricKrasnyy

1) Wow. Talk about overly hostile. How so are they internally inconsistent? As stated earlier, Hinduism is very open to interpretation, there is no real consistency.

As stated by a white guy in America who has never studied hinduism in an academic setting?
******** that definition.
******** anyone who thinks that it should count for anything.
Culture rapists are not authoritative on what Hinduism is.

EricKrasnyy

He's a westerner who believes in Hinduism.

Nope.
He's a westerner bastardising a culture and religion he knows nothing about and calling it Hinduism.
Just like you I suspect.

EricKrasnyy

everything they believe in except maybe Wicca

Nope.

EricKrasnyy

Wicca is based on Germanic paganism.

Nope.

EricKrasnyy

2) I was just asking you to leave some one alone. I never said anything about my ethical standpoint.

For ******** sake. You said "You shouldn't ridicule a person for their beliefs"
Should not.
Why should I not?
So it turns out that you don't actually understand words. You just use them?

EricKrasnyy

If you wish for me to do this, it will take some time (I'm also currently not home), so don't expect a fast response

Yes. Yes I wish this.

EricKrasnyy

4) Had to Google this. A WASP is a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. I'm neither from New England nor of Old Money so I don't think this really applies. I don't have much English blood, truth be told as I'm mostly German of other stripes. I was raised Protestant quite strongly, but I never had a choice until later in my life like most people who stray away will tell you. I do not see what the color of my skin has to do with my faith.

Actually, it's about patterns.
It's generally White Americans, who feel they are lacking any kind of cultural identity of their own, rape and pillage other cultures for what makes them unique.

EricKrasnyy

Also, please be respectful to people. Ethics aside, it's just courtesy.

Did you completely miss the ******** point with my "stop projecting your cultural values on me" thing I was going for?
I am not of your culture.
I do not follow the mores of your culture.
I do not buy into the "you have to be nice to assholes who think that other people's cultures exist solely as decoration for them" bullshit attitude you're going for.
Respect is to be earned not demanded.
And if I have to be respectful, then why the ******** is your imperialistic "adhere to my standards because they are somehow better than yours" bullshit attitude acceptable? Because it's not very respectful, is it?
What you actually mean is "be nice and friendly and sacharine sweet". To which I say "******** no".

Now you're just being irrational, nit-picky, and blatantly insulting. If this is how you wish to be, then I refuse to argue your new points and dismissals. I also find your xenophobia to be very inappropriate in this setting.
Please desist.

[Xiam]

CuAnnan

EricKrasnyy

1) Wow. Talk about overly hostile. How so are they internally inconsistent? As stated earlier, Hinduism is very open to interpretation, there is no real consistency.

As stated by a white guy in America who has never studied hinduism in an academic setting?
******** that definition.
******** anyone who thinks that it should count for anything.
Culture rapists are not authoritative on what Hinduism is.

Aaand you are...?

CuAnnan

EricKrasnyy

2) I was just asking you to leave some one alone. I never said anything about my ethical standpoint.

For ******** sake. You said "You shouldn't ridicule a person for their beliefs"
Should not.
Why should I not?

Because it's ******** rude? I mean, damn.

CuAnnan

Actually, it's about patterns.
It's generally White Americans, who feel they are lacking any kind of cultural identity of their own, rape and pillage other cultures for what makes them unique.

You say "rape and pillage" like they're actually causing harm to others by researching other cultures to enrich their lives, which as you say, are perhaps unfulfilling.

So they seek beyond their cultural norms for something to hold on to and maybe find meaning in their lives. And that's wrong how, exactly? Because it's not exactly what the other cultures believe? That I'll grant you can be a problem, and leads to its own sort of religion in itself - but like I think I've described in past threads, this happens anytime a religion comes into a new region. Check out the many times Buddhism has changed as it traveled, or hell, even Christianity.

Or perhaps you think it's just because they're white? Well who the ******** are you to say what a person should or should not believe?

CuAnnan

Respect is to be earned not demanded.

You know, with your massive bitchfest, it doesn't seem like you're earning any respect points from those guys.

I'm just saying.

[CuAnnan]

Xiam

Aaand you are...?

And I am... not redefining hinduism. I'm not even defining Hinduism.
See the difference?
In case you don't, I don't need to be Indian or Hindi to say "I'm not sure it's appropriate for a bunch of white guys to redefine Hinduism like that".

Xiam

Because it's ******** rude? I mean, damn.

But not when you guys do it?
Seriously?
My religious beliefs not only allow for it. In specific instances (arguably, at a stretch, including this one) my religious beliefs require it.
So it's only rude when it doesn't offend your sensibilities. When it does, then ******** that rule and display the behaviour that is otherwise unacceptable, except when you guys do it when it's fine.

Xiam

You say "rape and pillage" like they're actually causing harm to others by researching other cultures to enrich their lives, which as you say, are perhaps unfulfilling.

By misrepresenting cultures they don't belong to?
Do I really need to demonstrate how the word Karma has been completely misappropriated to the point that it now means "Cosmic justice system"?

Xiam

Because it's not exactly what the other cultures believe?

Actually, judging from content, it's not remotely what the other cultures believe.

Xiam

Or perhaps you think it's just because they're white? Well who the ******** are you to say what a person should or should not believe?

No, I know a couple of white Hindi (of different sects) personally. Admittedly, I don't know any white Hindi of that hard-core reclamist sect that's becoming popular.

It's because they're not learning what Hinduism is. They're reinterpreting the texts that hinduism came from and calling what they create whole-cloth Hinduism. Sure, you can learn a lot about a religion by reading about it and reading its texts. With the exception of Christianity, I don't know a single religion that claims that reading the texts are enough for membership.

Xiam

I'm just saying.

The difference is, I don't maintain that respect is presupposed.

[Commissar Reddunz]

To get more back on track and to ignore him, this is a thread for all people who practice Hinduism. If he refuses to acknowledge ideas outside of his own schema, then there is no use talking to him or even about him.

[Pagan Jesus]

EricKrasnyy

To get more back on track and to ignore him, this is a thread for all people who practice Hinduism. If he refuses to acknowledge ideas outside of his own schema, then there is no use talking to him or even about him.

You know you're mistaken there.
If you were to abide by the forum rules and present a even single logically coherent argument as to why an outsider should be able to define a set of practices and say that they are hinduism without the approval of anyone belonging to the religion in a position of authority, I'm sure he'd recant his position.
However, what you're doing is reinforcing his opinion that you're just a bunch of outsiders saying "Oh, that's shiny, I'll have that".
Which is enough to make anyone's blood boil.
Sure he's being a bit aggressive about it. But he's being transparently aggressive.
You're being passive aggressive. I mean the whole "blocking him so he can't take part in the conversation because he doesn't agree with you" thing.

Perhaps you don't realise that this is a polemic forum and that the rules, and expectations, are upon you to prove your position is correct, not on him to prove that it's incorrect. Or perhaps there's just an irreconcilable culture clash between his "I think cultures should be entitled to their distinctiveness" and your more syncretic world view. I mean, I get he's aggressive and abrasive, but that's tone not content. If tone, not content, is important to you you're going to be stuck in Samsara forever, maya will keep you from seeing any kind of valuable information.

[Commissar Reddunz]

Pagan Jesus

EricKrasnyy

To get more back on track and to ignore him, this is a thread for all people who practice Hinduism. If he refuses to acknowledge ideas outside of his own schema, then there is no use talking to him or even about him.

You know you're mistaken there.
If you were to abide by the forum rules and present a even single logically coherent argument as to why an outsider should be able to define a set of practices and say that they are hinduism without the approval of anyone belonging to the religion in a position of authority, I'm sure he'd recant his position.
However, what you're doing is reinforcing his opinion that you're just a bunch of outsiders saying "Oh, that's shiny, I'll have that".
Which is enough to make anyone's blood boil.
Sure he's being a bit aggressive about it. But he's being transparently aggressive.
You're being passive aggressive. I mean the whole "blocking him so he can't take part in the conversation because he doesn't agree with you" thing.

Perhaps you don't realise that this is a polemic forum and that the rules, and expectations, are upon you to prove your position is correct, not on him to prove that it's incorrect. Or perhaps there's just an irreconcilable culture clash between his "I think cultures should be entitled to their distinctiveness" and your more syncretic world view. I mean, I get he's aggressive and abrasive, but that's tone not content. If tone, not content, is important to you you're going to be stuck in Samsara forever, maya will keep you from seeing any kind of valuable information.

You're probably a mule account, but what the hell, I don't care if you're here as long as you're respectful. Even content wise, his arguments were vastly irrelevant and nit-picky to the actual argument being presented to him and outright ignores points made against him. I blocked because of this and his lack of respect for people he doesn't know. Just because he believes respect to be earned doesn't mean he can disrespect indiscriminately. My beliefs in general are Hindu. They are where it counts in all matters, its only little things that deviate from common practice such as I choose to practice Karma Yoga instead of the much more widespread Bhakti Yoga and Jnana Yoga and how I lack a sect.

[Pagan Jesus]

EricKrasnyy

You're probably a mule account

Nope, just a friend of his one or two levels lower down the autism spectrum.

EricKrasnyy

I don't care if you're here as long as you're respectful.

I'm not respectful. I'm nice. Which is different.
You're not respectful either, but I think you don't know what the word means and are using it in place of "nice".

EricKrasnyy

Even content wise, his arguments were vastly irrelevant

You think that the argument "reading translations as an outsider is not enough"?
Or that the "clearly outsiders pretending titles is damaging to the religions and cultures, look at how different the western meaning of Karma is to the Hindi meaning"?
I mean, yeah the "white Americans seem to be imperialist to the degree that they don't really see the other cultures as worthy of preparing" is inherently unsupportable.

EricKrasnyy

outright ignores points made against him.

You haven't actually made any points, though.
You've just said "Hinduism isn't coherent", despite the fact that it actually is and even has an orthodoxic movement.

EricKrasnyy

I blocked because of this and his lack of respect for people he doesn't know.

That wasn't very respectful.
Thus kinda proving that you don't actually mean it. That what you mean is "you have to behave the way we want you to".

EricKrasnyy

My beliefs in general are Hindu.

What beliefs?

EricKrasnyy

They are where it counts in all matters, its only little things that deviate from common practice such as I choose to practice Karma Yoga instead of the much more widespread Bhakti Yoga and Jnana Yoga and how I lack a sect.

To whom do you go to ensure that your practices are valid?

[Commissar Reddunz]

Pagan Jesus

EricKrasnyy

You're probably a mule account

Nope, just a friend of his one or two levels lower down the autism spectrum.

EricKrasnyy

I don't care if you're here as long as you're respectful.

I'm not respectful. I'm nice. Which is different.
You're not respectful either, but I think you don't know what the word means and are using it in place of "nice".

EricKrasnyy

Even content wise, his arguments were vastly irrelevant

You think that the argument "reading translations as an outsider is not enough"?
Or that the "clearly outsiders pretending titles is damaging to the religions and cultures, look at how different the western meaning of Karma is to the Hindi meaning"?
I mean, yeah the "white Americans seem to be imperialist to the degree that they don't really see the other cultures as worthy of preparing" is inherently unsupportable.

EricKrasnyy

outright ignores points made against him.

You haven't actually made any points, though.
You've just said "Hinduism isn't coherent", despite the fact that it actually is and even has an orthodoxic movement.

EricKrasnyy

I blocked because of this and his lack of respect for people he doesn't know.

That wasn't very respectful.
Thus kinda proving that you don't actually mean it. That what you mean is "you have to behave the way we want you to".

EricKrasnyy

My beliefs in general are Hindu.

What beliefs?

EricKrasnyy

They are where it counts in all matters, its only little things that deviate from common practice such as I choose to practice Karma Yoga instead of the much more widespread Bhakti Yoga and Jnana Yoga and how I lack a sect.

To whom do you go to ensure that your practices are valid?

Well I don't feel like I don't have respect for you. And I know the difference, thanks. I think you assume me to be a child or teenager, which is alright I suppose. In this context, I can see how you would get "nice" instead of respectful.

I did respond to his arguments, even the one you list, but he has ignored these. At least I believe I did. If you or he feels they are inadequate, I would be happy to talk about this further in PMs or a different thread, but, and this is another problem, this is not the place.

I have already stated my beliefs briefly in response before, which you and he have ignored. I am aware that there are orthodox Hindu radicals, but one fails to realize that Hinduism is the unity of several different tribal religions plus other major ones within India. Knowing this doesn't make me less Hindu and to not acknowledge it would make me ignorant. There is a popular saying within Hinduism how many rivers lead to the same ocean. Also supporting this is the story of Rama Krishna. And further, in the theme of unity of different ideas, different paths of worship, and so on and so forth, Hinduism is a religion you discover for yourself. It's called the "Eternal Path/ law/ duty" because it is an idea found within yourself.

As for validity, I think the Gita is as good place as any to confirm something. The English, believe it or not, is plain enough and it relates the concepts of Hinduism quite well. Yes, I have read it several times to make sure I was reading it right. I have read several interpretations from teachers (Like A.C. Bhativedanta Swami Prabhupada and Eknath Easwaran) on the Gita.

As a side note, I'm sure you fellows have never heard of Hare Krishnas. Perfect example of western Hindus.

Also, another side note, I think you mentioned something about Karma? Or was that the other guy? How Westerners and Easterners have different concepts? I'm aware of this. The Western concept is basically "What goes around, come around." The eastern concept is how the deeds of your life, big and small affect your placement after rebirth and how the Karma of others can actually influence your Karma via proximity. Karma also affects the sort of "temporary placement" you're in between death and rebirth.

Pretty sure you two (One? Still not convinced) have ODD (See? Now I'll be disrespectful). Otherwise you wouldn't have such a problem with someone requesting common courtesy.

[Xiam]

CuAnnan

Xiam

Aaand you are...?

And I am... not redefining hinduism. I'm not even defining Hinduism.
See the difference?
In case you don't, I don't need to be Indian or Hindi to say "I'm not sure it's appropriate for a bunch of white guys to redefine Hinduism like that".

Because - you know what? I'm going to just skip to where I address this and respond to your response there.

CuAnnan

Xiam

Because it's ******** rude? I mean, damn.

But not when you guys do it?
Seriously?
My religious beliefs not only allow for it. In specific instances (arguably, at a stretch, including this one) my religious beliefs require it.
So it's only rude when it doesn't offend your sensibilities. When it does, then ******** that rule and display the behaviour that is otherwise unacceptable, except when you guys do it when it's fine.

It's always rude, dude. I call myself out on that s**t all the time. Though probably not in text...

CuAnnan

Xiam

You say "rape and pillage" like they're actually causing harm to others by researching other cultures to enrich their lives, which as you say, are perhaps unfulfilling.

By misrepresenting cultures they don't belong to?
Do I really need to demonstrate how the word Karma has been completely misappropriated to the point that it now means "Cosmic justice system"?

Doesn't to me. And I'm not even Hindu.

CuAnnan

Xiam

Because it's not exactly what the other cultures believe?

Actually, judging from content, it's not remotely what the other cultures believe.

Which content?

CuAnnan

Xiam

Or perhaps you think it's just because they're white? Well who the ******** are you to say what a person should or should not believe?

No, I know a couple of white Hindi (of different sects) personally. Admittedly, I don't know any white Hindi of that hard-core reclamist sect that's becoming popular.

It's because they're not learning what Hinduism is. They're reinterpreting the texts that hinduism came from and calling what they create whole-cloth Hinduism. Sure, you can learn a lot about a religion by reading about it and reading its texts. With the exception of Christianity, I don't know a single religion that claims that reading the texts are enough for membership.

And what exactly makes you think these particular individuals are doing that?

CuAnnan

Xiam

I'm just saying.

The difference is, I don't maintain that respect is presupposed.

At least they're trying though, eh?

Oh, I don't suppose we encountered it then. Okay, I have to bring back up this one thing - maybe I mentioned it in another thread, I don't recall - what about how many cultures have already adopted other belief systems and applied them to their own cultural beliefs? Again I'll bring it back to Buddhism and Christianity, which have vastly different flavors depending on where in the world you find them. You mentioned that Christianity simply requires to read the book. But in general, Buddhism pares it down to the basics - the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path... I think the Three Jewels, right?

So I mean... maybe I'm completely wrong, but I at least see a precedent here for how things can travel and pass along through cultures, with the core tenets surviving while the particular flavors of the religions can change. To bring it around to food, it's like the Japanese making ice cream flavors of green tea, rice, sesame, squid ink, etc. to appeal to Japanese tastes, but nevertheless it's still, at its core, ice cream.

And people could say, "That's gross, that's not what ice cream is! Ice cream is vanilla, or chocolate, or strawberry, or rocky road!" And I could respond, "Well that's bullshit, ice cream only has a cream flavor, let them eat what they want."

So here you are, complaining that these people are enjoying green tea ice cream, and... what, telling them to throw it away? Get some ********' cookies and cream because that's what you think is the "proper" kind of ice cream?

Come the ******** on, man.

EricKrasnyy

To get more back on track and to ignore him, this is a thread for all people who practice Hinduism. If he refuses to acknowledge ideas outside of his own schema, then there is no use talking to him or even about him.

Oh goddammit, did you block him for having an opposing viewpoint? That's just as bad as what he was doing. And I was having a discussion!

Pagan Jesus

However, what you're doing is reinforcing his opinion that you're just a bunch of outsiders saying "Oh, that's shiny, I'll have that".
Which is enough to make anyone's blood boil.
Sure he's being a bit aggressive about it. But he's being transparently aggressive.
You're being passive aggressive. I mean the whole "blocking him so he can't take part in the conversation because he doesn't agree with you" thing.

Seriously. Dammit, what am I supposed to do with my replies now?

[SylverStar]

CuAnnan

SylverStar

I consider myself mostly Vulcan, but I'm a human so I came to this on my own and wasn't raised Vulcan and I think logic is stupid and trust my feelings.

I rewrote that in such a way so as to make it understandable quite how absurd you're being.
I really hope that you'll stop treating other people's religions and cultures as fancy paper to wrap yourself in to make yourself feel special.

Point taken. I said mostly because I don't label myself that because I know the culture is very ingrained with the religion. You seem to know very little about me to jump to such conclusions as what my values on logic vs feelings are or even what my beliefs are because I haven't stated them. I've studied various religions and value science above religion. I do think when it comes to religion and spirituality feelings come to play a part of it.

I'm sorry if how I phrased that offended you but I was posting to let the OP know we have this in common, I was actually trying to make it sound like I wasn't labeling myself as Hindu because I know I could never fully grasp what that truely means because I did not grow up in that culture.

Also so you both know I have studied Hinduism and Indian culture inside an academic background also I am female just to clarify.

I have no problem with this arguement because it was actually one of my biggest worries when I first started connecting with beliefs I found in Hindu texts and then starting looking into Hindu forums and seeing how those raised Hindu felt about westerners wanting to be Hindu. I felt ashamed at first to have these beliefs but that does not change what I believe, though how I present myself yes.

I'm not trying to ornament myself in others beliefs and cultures, that I think you are mistaken on. I was taken aback that you took what I wrote as pretty much the opposite of what I meant. However I probably phrased it that way because I knew this arguement was out there.

[Lucky~9~Lives]

Xiam

So here you are, complaining that these people are enjoying green tea ice cream, and... what, telling them to throw it away? Get some ********' cookies and cream because that's what you think is the "proper" kind of ice cream?

More like telling the people enjoying green tea ice cream to stop ********' calling it Häagen-Dazs.

Unless Häagen-Dazs produce green tea ice cream, in which case the analogy kind of falls apart.

Or melts, as it were.

crying

Xiam

EricKrasnyy

To get more back on track and to ignore him, this is a thread for all people who practice Hinduism. If he refuses to acknowledge ideas outside of his own schema, then there is no use talking to him or even about him.

Oh goddammit, did you block him for having an opposing viewpoint? That's just as bad as what he was doing. And I was having a discussion!

Yes, definitely not cool.

[Commissar Reddunz]

I never wanted this to be thread to be an argument. I only wanted other Hindus or at least people who identify with Hinduism to know they're not alone on Gaia. I suppose I never said this, but I felt like I didn't have to.

[Vertigo_Kiwi]

I wonder if the issue is with the labeling of oneself as Hindu or the idea of following the religion itself?

Because I may call myself a Yogi to avoid labeling myself Hindu. But I still have images of Ganesha and Shiva on a small shrine. I still read the religious texts. Though I won't wear a bindi or dress in a sari, because I consider those part of Indian culture.

Then I've heard things like, "Well, as long as the beliefs are given to you, it's okay." For example, how Vivekananda came to America to share the Vedanta religion. So, that would make it okay?

It seems too confusing to figure out what would be offensive and what wouldn't be.